You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I attended a speed awareness course last week (I did 58mph on a 50mph restricted dual carriageway). At that course they said there were 27 national speed limits, such as 70mph for cars on a dual carriageway, 60mph for cars on a single carriageway, 50mph for buses on a single carriageway etc. Most of this is all in the Highway Code. The exceptions not in the Highway Code are things like the Isle of Man.
The speed limit for cars in a built-up area is 30mph. We were advised that a "built-up area" is usually indicated by the presence of street lights and *not* the presence of buildings. We were repeatedly quizzed on this. Again this is reinforced in the Highway Code, which states:
The 30mph speed limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise
[url= https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits ]Gov.uk[/url] states:
A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise.
The National Speed Limit (NSL) is indicated by this sign:
[img] 
[/img]
On the drive home from this course the speed limit goes from a restricted 30mph, to 40mph (signed) to NSL, indicated by the NSL sign, which is repeated until it returns to a 40mph zone. The NSL section has street lights. Following the logic of the speed awareness course and the Highway Code, that NSL section should be a 30mph limit. Everyone treats it like a 60mph (for cars) and my enquiries to the local authorities so far confirm it is 60mph for cars.
What's gone wrong here? I notice the highway code says that street lights "usually" indicate a 30mph limit. Isn't that a bit ambiguous?
[i]Following the logic of the speed awareness course and the Highway Code, that NSL section should be a 30mph limit.[/i]
Streetlights means "30mph [b]unless otherwise indicated[/b]"
On the drive home from this course the speed limit goes from a restricted 30mph, to 40mph (signed) [b]to NSL, indicated by the NSL sign, which is repeated until it returns [/b]to a 40mph zone.
I notice the highway code says that street lights [b]"usually"[/b] indicate a 30mph limit. Isn't that a bit ambiguous?
In a situation where you could be mistaken that you were in an implied 30 limit there are repeated NSL signs to help you out.
Indeed wwaswas, but there are no signs otherwise indicating. The only signs were the NSL signs which - as pointed out - mean 30mph in a built up area.
Dual Carriageways have 'Street Lights' As you've noticed on your drive home, the advice is really telling you to drive with due care and attention and then you'll see the signs indicating the correct speed limit. Edited to add of course you still need to understand what the correct national limit is for road types.
mike, that's the thrust of my question. The speed awareness course repeatedly said NSL in a built-up area is 30-mph. The indicator of a built-up area is streetlights. The only repeater signs are NSL signs, ergo 30mph limit.
Where does it say that?
distance between lights has a bearing too, doesn't it ?
You've answered your own question in your gumph above.
The sign you posted means it is "otherwise indicated" so 60mph unless its a dual carriageway with a denoted central reservation.
You had 30 indicated
40 indicated
then a NSL sign indicating its 60mph
then 40 indicated.
Failing to see why it would be considered a 30?
You did listen to the part about "gateway signage" and repeaters?
You've mentioned repeaters already so the gateway signage where it changes are your telltales.
No gateways and/or repeaters means 30mph - everything else is telling you the limit.
[i]but there are no signs otherwise indicating. The only signs were the NSL signs which - as pointed out - mean 30mph in a built up area. [/i]
Err, that's not what NSL signs mean.
It also has to do with spacing of the street lights.
Oh as others have pointed out they have repeated signs on the streetlights to remind you that it’s a NSL area not a 30mph.
Streetlights and no repeaters = 30mph
I assume that until I see a sign informing me otherwise, I'm sure I've pissed off a few people in 40mph bits, as the repeater signs for those seem to be totally random compared to 50/nsl ones, but thus far I've no points on my licence and haven't had to attend a speed awareness course.
Where does it say that?
page 43 of my copy of the Highway Code, published 2009 and [url= https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits ]Gov.uk[/url]
Then paste it here as said, the NSL is not the 30mph built up area spead limit.
I see what you are getting at.
Most folk assume National Speed Limit to be 60 mph for cars but your course instructor told you it's 30 mph where there are streetlights. The wording from the HC might clear it up.
I think you must have drifted off during your course.
Err, that's not what NSL signs mean.
NSL means national speed limit. In a built-up area the national speed limit is 30mph. The speed awareness course, and the highway code, both advise that a built-up area is indicated by streetlights (@Drac they made no mention of distance between street lights, nor have I yet found that in the Highway Code).
I've treated that road - and has everyone else - as a 60mph section for decades. It's probably intended to be a 60mph section. The supposedly unambiguous rules suggest otherwise.
The national speed limit, as indicated by your sign, varies between 40 mph to 70 mph depending on what vehicle you are driving, what type of road you are and where that road is in the UK.
In the case you indicate I would guess that its a single carriage way and that you were driving a car which would mean that the speed limit that applied to you was 60 mph
I've got my speed awareness course on Saturday. This is like a study group.
scotroutes - Member
I see what you are getting at.Most folk assume National Speed Limit to be 60 mph for cars.
The NSL for cars is 60mph - indicated by the above posted signage.
The [b][i]lack[/i][/b] of any signage or a Gateway indicating 30mph is where the 30mph rule kicks in and this seems to be what is confusing the OP
Its not unambiguous - its very simple - the signage is indicating to you what the limit is.
You are simply failing to understand it correctly.
Then paste it here as said, the NSL is not the 30mph built up area spead limit.
Just click on the Gov.uk link I provided, where it very clearly and unambiguously has a table of national speed limits (NSL) showing built-up areas to be 30mph [url= https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits ]https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits[/url]
NSL means national speed limit. In a built-up area the national speed limit is 30mph.
No it's not. The speed limit is 30mph, it's a speed limit applied nationally but not a NSL
The 30 limit tells you it's 30, no NSL sign as above tells you to do 30mph.
A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies, unless you see [b]signs showing otherwise[/b].
OP - right at the [b]VERY TOP[/b] of that link you posted.....
The OP is correct. That's exactly what it says.Just click on the Gov.uk link I provided, where it very clearly and unambiguously has a table of national speed limits (NSL) showing built-up areas to be 30mph
The NSL for cars is 60mph - indicated by the above posted signage
But it's not. The National Speed limit varies depending on the road, as I point out with my quotes and references in posts above. There are 4 national speed limits for motorhomes for example, depending on the road. The presence of this sign does not, on its own, tell you the speed limit
[img] [/img]<
That sign will never indicate a 30 limit in a built up area.
If it's 30mph and there are signs to indicate this, they will look like this:
[img] 
[/img]
Not like this
[img] [/img]
[i]What's gone wrong[/i] is your understanding of NSL.
The national speed limit, as indicated by your sign, varies between 40 mph to 70 mph depending on what vehicle you are driving, what type of road you are and where that road is in the UK.In the case you indicate I would guess that its a single carriage way and that you were driving a car which would mean that the speed limit that applied to you was 60 mph
This.
I actually find a little worrying you didn’t know that.
You are right, but that's not what it says in the HCmikewsmith - Member
That sign will never indicate a 30 limit in a built up area
If only there were a course you could go on and ask this sort of question...
The only signs were the NSL signs which - as pointed out - mean 30mph in a built up area.
no, they don't. Either they have caused confusion or you've got confused by
there were 27 national speed limits
There may be 27 different speed limits, but the term [b]National Speed Limit[/b] is usually used to refer to the maximum limit for that type of road ie. 60mph on a single carriageway, 70 on a separated dual carriageway and is indicated by the white circle with black GLF stripe. On an urban single carriageway the limit is [i]usually[/i] 30mph, but I'm sure we've all driven single carriageways lined with houses etc that were 40 or even 50mph posted limits.
Street lights at 188m (200 yards) or less separation is taken to mean a 30 limit unless (as already pointed out) otherwise indicated so you should get occasional repeater signs after the main larger sign.
scaredypants - Memberdistance between lights has a bearing too, doesn't it?
As does the height of the light, believe it or not.
OP: stop thinking of 30 limits as NSL. They're not.
The confusion has been brought about by a relatively recent drive to change people's perception that unless otherwise stated the speed limit for a car being 60mph on a single carriageway road is now 30mph.
30 limits will always have 30 signs on entry and either 30 repeaters or regular street lighting (or signs painted on the road in a couple of special areas such as the new forest).
it's a speed limit applied nationally but not a NSL
Wow! Mind blown. What's the difference between a speed limit applied nationally and an NSL?!? Which one fo you think the Gov.uk site refers to?
To be honest I wan't expecting to be any better informed by this thread. It seems there is plenty of confusion out there.
We were advised that a "built-up area" is usually indicated by the presence of street lights and *not* the presence of buildings.
Instructors have not been to much of rural UK then?
I can think of a good few places where it is 30mph, without any streetlights or regular spacing etc.
Surely *the* indicator of speed limit is sign (including waiting until a sign tells you a change, including variation from 30mph), and you *should* use your judgement and caution over and above this as a driver.
You are right, but that's not what it says in the HC
True
sometimes people just need to file that with the silly rules about i's and e's and accept it
[i]Following the logic of the speed awareness course and the Highway Code[/i]
I find it easier to go by the rules rather than the logic.
On my speed awareness course a few months ago the guy said that you can take NSL to mean 'No Signs or Lights'. So:
No signs or lights = NSL*
Lights but no signs = 30mph
Signs = whatever the sign says.
*NSL sign indicates 60mph limit for cars on a single carriageway.
If only there were a course you could go on and ask this sort of question...
Had I noticed this *before* the course I would have asked. The advice on the course has introduced the doubt, not cleared it up. As has this thread 🙂
Tell you what, stilltortoise - just go under 30 everywhere, you'll be easy to overtake 😆
It does if you're smart enough to know what type of vehicle you're driving - and if you don't then you probably shouldn't be driving.The presence of this sign does not, on its own, tell you the speed limit
The NSL sign will not indicate a 30mph limit, the lack of one with the other factors will. If you have the other factors and no sign limit then it's 30mph, if it's a NSL sign then it's whatever the road tells you.
By the OP's logic the sign he refers to means 30mph on the M'ways as they regularly post it up on the matrix on the M42, M4, M6, M6 Toll, M25....
All of which have lots of streetlights....
The other point is that the speed limit for different vehicles is different depending on the road so the NSL sign is used to indicate the maximum permitted speed for the vehicle type on that road. Where there is a 30/40/50 sign, that's the max speed for any vehicle on that road (if the vehicle is allowed to go that fast). If the sign had to show the speed limit for all vehicle types it would be massive!
[quote=alanf ]The other point is that the speed limit for different vehicles is different depending on the road so the NSL sign is used to indicate the maximum permitted speed for the vehicle type on that road. Where there is a 30/40/50 sign, that's the max speed for any vehicle on that road (if the vehicle is allowed to go that fast). If the sign had to show the speed limit for all vehicle types it would be massive!
That's another anomaly. I've seen roads with a signposted speed limit of 60mph. If you were driving an HGV.......
By the OP's logic the sign he refers to means 30mph on the M'ways as they regularly post it up on the matrix on the M42, M4, M6, M6 Toll, M25....
All of which have lots of streetlights....
Well no, because the motorway regulations over-rule. Everyone knows that, don't they? 🙂
Until the speed awareness course I was right there with most of you on this thread, taking the NSL sign to mean 60mph limit (edit - in a car on a single carriageway) unless signs indicate otherwise. My confusion and exasperation is coming from the advice we received on the speed awareness course.
What I'm taking away from this thread is that the instructors on the speed awareness course have done a bad job on this topic.
Remember the national speed limit also depends on the weather conditions.
Anyone mentioned gateway signs yet?
I've seen roads with a signposted speed limit of 60mph. If you were driving an HGV.......
...can be signposted as higher (see A9)
another speed limit thread, so soon?
Yeah but this one will be a classic.
Remember the national speed limit also depends on the weather conditions.
It might do in France but not in UK.
All of which have lots of streetlights
They're not street lights.
scotroutes - MemberThat's another anomaly. I've seen roads with a signposted speed limit of 60mph. If you were driving an HGV.......
HGVs can do 60mph.
What's your understanding of the National Speed Limit in the UK?
My understanding is that the NSL applies unless their is a restriction in place, that a restriction will be indicated either by signs or the presence of streetlights no more than 200yds apart for a 30, and where there are streetlights but the road is not restricted to 30 there will be signs indicating this.
NSL sign indicates 60mph (for cars) generally observed after leaving a speed limited (30mph, 40mph, etc) area. Near where I live there is a streetlit road with no houses on it and NSL signs, so the speed limit is 60mph (for cars). But lots of people drive at 40 for some reason, so the uncertainty is probably quite widespread (or the world is full of dawdlers).
Don't forget the new 20mph speed limits in lots of built up areas which are also signed. And if you ever go into MOD areas (serviceman's housing areas etc, to the best of my recollection the (signed) speed limits are 15mph.
How fast can I go if I'm driving to pick up a crown race, or do they just come with the headset?
Really quite simple:
The NSL is the National Speed Limit, not National Speed Limit[b]s[/b] Therefore, it can only be one number which is 60 and is what the sign signifies
(Ignoring the caveats for different vehicle types)
For everywhere else the state informs you with the use of signs with permitted maximum speed (generally) 🙂
sbob - Member
scotroutes - Member
That's another anomaly. I've seen roads with a signposted speed limit of 60mph. If you were driving an HGV.......HGVs can do 60mph.
Do you mean that they are capable of doing 60 or allowed to do 60?
The NSL is the National Speed Limit, not National Speed Limits Therefore, it can only be one number which is 60 and is what the sign signifies
Or 70
[i]It might do in France but not in UK.[/i]
Just France?
Really quite simple:
The NSL is the National Speed Limit, not National Speed Limits Therefore, it can only be one Therefore National number which is 60/70 Nationally and is what the sign signifies unless there are street lightings, not National Street Lightings, but street lighting nationally indicating a 60/70 National 30 limit.
Got it?
Do you mean that they are capable of doing 60 or allowed to do 60?
Strictly speaking both, but then you know the rules and you'll know that an HGV limited to 56mph will still be able to do 60mph downhill and still have a 60mph speed limit (English dual carriageway).
Ah, interesting - 50 up here for the big ones on DC's.
but then you know the rules
I didn't actually, not that one at least 😀
(Ignoring the caveats for different vehicle types)
And different road types?
Glad I put in the English bit then, for some reason I was under the impression that you were south of the border.
Used to be, took a wrong turn on the M6 ten years ago...
And different road types?
Of course, I left that out to create more rage within the thread for those that didn't think that a motrorway or dual carriageway would be treated differently 😀
Have we got to the point where it is revealed that at least one person on the thread is confused by what [i]"dual carriageway"[/i] means and has spent decades doing 70 on all two lane roads with NSLs wondering why everyone else is going so slow?
That's always my favourite bit. 😀
I agree that the NSL sign indicates a speed limit of 60/70 mph for cars, however can see where the OP is coming from, the below are both from the gov.uk website:
1: This confirms that the NSL sign indicates that 'The national speed limit for the type of road and class of traffic applies':
[img] 
[/img]
2: However this states that the NSL in a built up area is 30mph:
[img] 
[/img]
can see where the OP is coming from
Well that's two of you now, so I'm making some progress 😆 Thanks
[url= https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q594.htm ]Q594: What is the national speed limit?[/url]
That's what the police have to say on the matter, anyway.
Internally I seem to consider the NSL sign to be a "derestriction" sign. Possibly that's how it used to be used, long ago before speed limits were imposed on all roads, and I've picked it up from someone older than me. So it means something along the lines of "no previous speed limit applies, the limit is the maximum for this road type and your vehicle". With a car that means 60mph, or 70mph if the road is a dual carriageway with a central reservation.
that is very ambiguously worded IMO, looking at the rest of that page I can only assume they're using the words "national speed limits" as a counter point to "locally set speed limits" rather than meaning National Speed Limit. That is all I can think of. The speed limit is NEVER 30 when there's an NSL sign.2: However this states that the NSL in a built up area is 30mph:
Have you a google maps link to this road, it can be viewed in Street view.
The distance between the street lights is a factor, not just the fact that street lights exist.
And if you're on a motorbike, all bets are off.
Yes but it doesn't override signage. If there's street lights & no repeaters, it's a 30 (because the distance between the lights will be 200 yards or less). If there are repeaters, it's whatever the signage says. They don't expect drivers to get out and measure the distance with a trundle wheel just to figure out what the speed limit is 😆The distance between the street lights is a factor, not just the fact that street lights exist.
if a speed limit is in force, apart from 30mph in 'built up areas', or NSL, it should be signed.
So my questions;
40mph haS A 40MPH SIGN. these should be EVERY 400metres? 1/4 mile?
If there is a sign missing or obscured can you still get done?
On a dual carriageway in a built up area, is the limit still 30mph unless signed otherwise?
And why do (some) roundabouts have 60mph/NSL signs just before them?
shifter - MemberAnd if you're on a motorbike, all bets are off.
[b]N[/b]o [b]S[/b]peed [b]L[/b]imit. 😀
500m on the same side or 350m on alternate signs AFAIK. (The gap is larger where the limits are higher)40mph haS A 40MPH SIGN. these should be EVERY 400metres? 1/4 mile?
Depends how good your solicitor is, it gives you an "out" but you've still had to go through the main speed limit sign 🙂If there is a sign missing or obscured can you still get done?
because the other roads coming off the roundabout will have a different (faster) speed limit than the one you're onAnd why do (some) roundabouts have 60mph/NSL signs just before them?
Did my course just before chrimbo so it's pretty fresh still 😆
Having street lights is not the only marker of a street being a built up area.
My understanding following my speed awareness course is that the NSL sign (black diagonal) does indicate the National Speed Limit which is 60mph for cars. In a built up area the National Speed Limit drops to 30mph BUT there should be a 30 mph sign to denote this zone i.e. number 30 inside a red ring.
The reason you need a speed limit sign in a reduced NSL zone is to avoid the type of ambiguity and confusion that is reigning on this thread. Again, some roads that are not in built up areas may have street lights and visa versa.
At the end of the day the signs rule. You are only told about the street light thing on the speed awareness course to make you aware of certain visual cue's to help you see in advance when a speed limit change is coming so you can look ahead and make better decisions. But ultimately the signs rule and a black diagonal sign means 60mph for a car. Other wise why would you need any other speed sign at all? All signs would just be the black diagonal and leave it upto drivers to decide what the speed limit was based upon there being street lights or not.
If there is a sign missing or obscured can you still get done?
If there was a sign missing or obscured would you speed?
On a dual carriageway in a built up area, is the limit still 30mph unless signed otherwise?
There are always signs at the start of the limit.
And why do (some) roundabouts have 60mph/NSL signs just before them?
To indicate a change in speed limit. 😆
You may have different speed limits on the roads leading to a roundabout so it is common to have a change of limit so they are harmonized on the roundabout itself.
NSL is either 50, 60, or 70 depending on the type of road and what you're driving. If you're not in a NSL area, you will have passed a sign that says 20,30,40,50 or 60. Perfectly simple and nothing to do with street lights.
Now prove me wrong....