[Closed] What's the point of the EU?

I see little value in the EU beyond a freetrade area. However, there are many, (esp on the mainland continent) who believe in the solidarity of a federal arrangement.

A framework of similar laws and taxation actually protects trade and individual rights within the nations participating.

Uniformity of banana shape across borders.

Sharing of technology to bring projects to market really quickly, like for example, the Eurofighter.

Distance Selling Regulations came out of europe

To provide a counter to the economic and military might of the US and (in the olden days) the USSR.

Otherwise we'd just have to do whatever the US told us to do.

EDIT: seen in that light, the destruction of the Euro would be a _good_ thing for some.

Sharing of technology to bring projects to market really quickly, like for example, the Eurofighter.

The working time directive.
Human rights law.

Otherwise we'd just have to do whatever the US told us to do

Good job we'll never get ourselves into that position.

The freedom of citizens to live and work where they please and if any snotty official gets difficult you just pipe up with, "well as your government has signed all the European treaties I have the right to do what I'm requesting and if you set up unsurmountable hurdles then you are breaking the law. I don't care what your national laws say because they are inferior to European law so there is a solution and I'm sure your'll find it without me having to go to the European court".

Anyone who remembers the queues in consulates and nightmarish paperwork of working in Spain (for example) before Spain had full membership knows the EU has achieved at least some of the original objectives.

Ok, Sharing of technology - Isn't that mostly private enterprise driven?
JSF being a non EU alternative example.

Distance Selling Regulations - A nice law, but presumably part of the general original concept of a freetrade area rather than anything else?

A framework of similar laws and taxation actually protects trade and individual rights within the nations participating.

The working time directive.
Human rights law.

Yeah this would be one I would have gone for in the past. But philosophically I'm having trouble convincing myself that Europe as a whole is any better than the UK at protecting Human Rights. To do so seems to carry an inference that in some way Europe has better morals than the UK. There's certainly appears to be plenty of evidence that this has been the case on several occasions. But I'm having trouble convincing myself that this is anything other than coincidental. The best I can come up with is that it acts as dampener on the foibles of individual governments much like the house of lords. So I guess that puts it on the plus side of the argument.

Lots of Environmental Protection and Conservation legislation came out of Europe too.

Erm...guilty of smartarsery with the Eurofighter one. 🙂

I have a ski bum friend who gets laid off every summer and claims benefits in France untill the winter season comes around again.

It provides John Redwood, Rees-Smogg, Naddine Dorres and assorted foaming, right-wing neo-fruit-loops with something to rail against. And therefore keeps them out of mischief!

Imagine the damage they'd do if they had a domestic agenda to get involved in, without the Euro-distraction

*shudders*

😀

Isn't it Germany's third attempt at taking everyone else in europe over?

Your average MEP will be a hardcore right wing nut job although for some reason they come up with some very liberal stuff.

I have difficulty with the EU because it is simply too big to understand - too many cooks etc. When I vote for a EU representative I really don't have much of a clue about all the issues.

I think it is too cumbersome to be a democratic union, and that we are getting law by regulation with ineffective representation.

I am also deeply suspicious of anything that resembles the 4th Reich, a Napoleonic Empire, or a reconstituted Holy Roman Empire. 🙂

I think the UK dropped the ball when it didn't do a similar thing with its Commonwealth countries.

It exists to give an income to farmers so they don't have to run their farms like a business but can just tread water and live off the subsidies

It was originally formed to stop us shooting at each other. That much has largely worked I think. Plus theoretically it makes it easier to trade within the area by adopting common standards rather than having to get certification in each area.

And straight bananas are much yummier..

I think the UK dropped the ball when it didn't do a similar thing with its Commonwealth countries.

Freedom of travel and freedom to work where you like, the human rights legislation, trade freedom off the top of my head.

It undoubtedly helps trade as you standardise regulation and business practice across Europe. It is much easier to trade within Europe now than it was however the remit goes much further than trade regulations and, where you draw the line, is where the debate has been ever since it was conceived.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

never could understand why we shafted the commonwealth.

The EU is a much bigger trading partner than the commonwealth - so makes more sense to focus on Europe as that's where we do most business.

Because it's more important to sell things to rich people close to you than buy things from people far away from you.

Europe has better morals than the UK

It would make for an interesting argument about what constituted 'better' morals, but it's potentially less controversial to suggest that many of the northern European countries tend to have a more social democratic approach to civic life, which shapes their priorities in ways that are sometimes significantly different from England in particular. If the Tory Euro-sceptics really get into gear and start articulating their demands to repeal lots of the employment laws and so on, under the guise of libertarianism, I think it may slowly dawn on people that vacuous nationalism doesn't really make up for an increasing divide between rich and poor.

5th elefant: Unlikely, for many reasons! Perhaps you'd like to summarise.

ditch_jockey - Member
...If the Tory Euro-sceptics really get into gear and start articulating their demands to repeal lots of the employment laws and so on, under the guise of libertarianism, I think it may slowly dawn on people that vacuous nationalism doesn't really make up for an increasing divide between rich and poor.

Nationalism doesn't equate with Toryism. Ask the Scots.

5th elefant: Unlikely, for many reasons! Perhaps you'd like to summarise.

India* and China are going to twice as important as the rest of the world put together as export markets in the immediate future. The message was... forget europe; india, china and brazil the future.

It's hard to imagine having the likes of canada, australia and india as your key partners would be a bad idea. And you only have to look at chinese involvement with african countries to see we're missing a trick there too.

*a Commonwealth country.

Realistically an EU-style trade union with the Commonwealth could never happen - the difference between the European economies is minuscule compared to the difference between the UK and most Commonwealth countries - and it was even worse when the EU / EEC was being set up.

That's not to say that the UK shouldn't invest more time and energy in the Commonwealth, of course!

There is no indication so far that we are going to have anything but a negative trade balance with, China,India and others. We aren't competing on a level playing field with these countries, who value human welfare and environmental protection far lower than what we expect. Prioritising trade between our neighbours who have similar levels of legality and welfare just makes sense.
In order to do that some rules have to be rationalised throughout the grouping so that one individual country doesn't start the "race to the bottom".

Can we be good friends and not get married?

The "race to the bottom" has been going on for years. Ireland with its low levels of company tax, Holland with its musicians tax, Italy with its devaluations before the Euro made that impossible, the UK with incentives for inward investment, Spain with favourable employment laws... .

The stated objective of Merkel speaking today is a leveling of the fiscal playing field. She regretted that the UK decided not to join in but made it clear she considers Britain is still very much a part of the union.