[Closed] What's the harm?

That is Very Scary Indeed. If nutjobs want to kill themselves by using woo OK (as long as they are not contagious and hurt others) but hurting a child like that?

Absolute nutcases.

Our bodies' "intelligent design over millions of years".
Wow
Surely she can be done for telling the mother very clearly NOT to seek medical advice?

Here we go 😥

The Mod must be bored and looking to exercise his hammer perhaps? 😉

All we need now is to include a religion reference...

I really don't understand the 'whats the harm' argument. I can see that it works on a very simplistic level, but we've essentially got people peddling products and advice that [b]at best[/b] do no damage and at worst can lead to the death of the patient due to not receive proper care or in the case of vaccinations lead to the reoccurrence of diseases we'd nearly wiped out. I'm of the opinion that an awful lot of alternative medicine (not all of it, but a fair chunk) is essentially fraud and if people are harmed because of it then the practitioner should be held to account.

Oh my god. Heaven help us all.

Wow 😯

There are some right nut jobs out there

I bet [b]Hitler[/b]* embraced homeopathy, and probably had no vaccines either

* yeah, Hitler and all the other [b]Nazis[/b]

(I'm assuming Godwin applies here, otherwise I'll have to drag in religion) 😀

What about homoeopathic cycle helmets, I bet Jesus hates THEM as well. Does He?

all we need now is a kiddy fiddling comment and a couple of spurious a'postrophe's

Hang on, this'll work for sure;

I wonder what TJ and Fred would think about all this?

Our bodies' "intelligent design over millions of years".

Lol yeah right, and yet our bollocks are still on the outside.

All we need now is to include a [s]religion[/s] driving reference

You can't invoke Godwin on purpose to try to end an argument on the webz.

Did Steve Jobs not also follow a lot of alternative medicine and he could hardly be considered a nutter.

Did Steve Jobs not also follow a lot of alternative medicine and he could hardly be considered a nutter.

Not exactly a good example of it working well either!

he could hardly be considered a nutter

He was a bit of a 'nutter' and an arsehole. Refused medically proven life saving treatments, a lot of his staff were terrified of him in case he fired them, denied he had a daughter to avoid paying her support money...

Ok, but he was undoubtedly also very bright. It's difficult to understand why he didn't take better medical advice or why anyone does for that matter

Or is it just the fear of 'proper' drugs?

There's lots of different types of "bright".
Jobs had a gift for business, leadership and design - doesn't mean he knew anything about medicine.

[i] Jobs had a gift for business, leadership and design - doesn't mean he knew anything about medicine.
[/i]

No, but I bet he had an app for that.

Ok, but he was undoubtedly also very bright. It's difficult to understand why he didn't take better medical advice or why anyone does for that matter

I believe he was on record as stating it was a decision (not to immediately get medical treament) he deeply regretted and acknolwedged that if he had done, he would likely have survived.

On a separate note, I read recently that Novak Djovich (or whatever he's called, that tall chap that plays tennis), was advised by his 'nutrionist' that his body was rejecting 'wheat' by doing the following experiment on him:

The tennis star Novak Djokovic believes he owes his stellar 2011 season to giving up gluten. In his book Serve to Win, he describes the moment his nutritionist Igor Cetojevicv gave him a slice of bread and told him to hold it against his stomach while he held his other arm out straight. Then Cetojevicv pushed down on his arm. "With the bread against my stomach, my arm struggled to resist Cetojevicv's downward pressure. I was noticeably weaker," the tennis star writes. "This is a sign that your body is rejecting the wheat in the bread," Cetojevicv told him. (Djokovic did go on to have a blood test too.)

^ LOL

Which begs the question, would you trade your brains for epic tennis skills?

What ability would you sacrifice for superior skills in another?

[quote=Stoner ]Which begs the question, would you trade your brains for epic tennis skills?

That's a no brainer

Did Steve Jobs not also follow a lot of alternative medicine and he could hardly be considered a nutter.

Probably not your "textbook" nutter no.

He is dead though.

So, you know..... Same result despite appearances.

If we were being bloody-minded, I [i]suppose[/i] we could suggest that considerable iatrogenic harm is [i]certainly[/i] done to loads of children by proper medical doctors every year.

We're inclined to be much harsher in judgment about harm done in the course of doing something abnormal.

Same as your boss being pissy about your week off work for a bike crash, but sympathetic to someone else's persistent diabetes from too much sofa and ice cream.

🙂

A view I heard recently was that conventional medicine is borne from chemistry and homeopathy borne from physics.

There ya go.... Flame away. 😈

Ah the special branch of physics...

About as credible as the Lizard People I suppose

A view I heard recently was that conventional medicine is borne from chemistry and homeopathy borne from physics.
There ya go.... Flame away.

Were you listening to an idiot?

It's a bit like finding a wasps nest in the loft and poking it with a stick just wearing underpants 😉

Is homeopathy good for wasp stings?

[i] molgrips - Member
" Our bodies' "intelligent design over millions of years"

Lol yeah right, and yet our bollocks are still on the outside.[/i]

Sounds like a complaint. However, you've no need to worry.
In your case, I'm fairly sure it no longer applies.

Interestingly in India to practice homeopathy you have to be a qualified Doctor. My indian relatives are all Doctors who mainly studied here or in the States. Infact my grandfather was one of the top consultants in the country right up till he died at 87 still working and researching. He had a very broad view of medicine and prescribed ayerveda, homeopathy and conventional modern drugs.
I liked his stories of working in the interior of the Amazon in the 60s and realising very quickly that in such remote places local herbal medicine was a must due to the sheer remoteness after contracting some waterborne nastiness and being treated by local plant remedies.

I couldn't see the original link for some reason (could be the firewall at work), but frankly no discussion about homeopathic medicine is complete with Mitchell and Webb's input.

At present, in India, homeopathy is the third most popular method of medical treatment after allopathy and Ayurveda. There are over 200,000 registered homeopathic doctors currently, with approximately 12,000 more being added every year.

Source: [url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20471616 ]PubMed paper[/url]

How's that working out I wonder?

[img] [/img]

Healthy Life Expectancy in India: 57
Healthy Life Expectancy in the UK: 71

Obviously there are a [i]lot[/i] of compounding factors here, not least socio-economic, but then homeopathy isn't expensive - the main ingredient is water.

[i]What's the harm?[/i]

This is the weaker of the two tests. The test should be the stronger.
To prove the benefit.

Lots of items have been unleashed into the public, on the basis that no harm could be demonstrated.

I'd have preferred stuff to under go the burden of proving the benefit of anything new.

i still like the proposal that if you reduce the level of funding for homeopathy on the NHS, it should become much more effective.

How can the homeopath be sure that their water remembered the right substance it's diluted?

I often wonder that when I flush the loo

In your case, I'm fairly sure it no longer applies.

After Saturday's 15 hour bike ride you're probably right.

GrahamS - That data has nothing to do with homeopathy and that horrifying reality in India is why we fund 2 clinics in poor and remote regions with transport to hospitals for major operations and train local women to become nurses and midwives, vaccinate, provide nets and testing etc. Tbf Grandfather knew that homeopathy was a bit 'subtle' but its part of normal life there.
Personally I am very sceptical of the claims that some homeopaths make. However, a broader deeper understanding of our health is something that modern medicine often overlooks in the busy cash strapped clinical situation. Often older traditional practise(I don't really mean homeopathy) provide a better 'whole' person approach which can be highly useful in a preventative way as well as treatment.

However, a broader deeper understanding of our health is something that modern medicine often overlooks in the busy cash strapped clinical situation

Really? You have insight into this or is it just knee-jerk anti-modernism? Cos whenever I hear doctors talking they are all about the whole person and finding ways to improve treatment with whole-person methods... most doctors aren't stupid, after all.

There's a lot of rhetoric in the US about modern medicine being procedure-led but they have a totally different business model. Just look at childbirth experiences there vs here for an example.

Personally I am very sceptical of the claims that some homeopaths make.

"Some"?

my grandfather was one of the top consultants in the country right up till he died at 87 still working and researching. He had a very broad view of medicine and prescribed ayerveda, homeopathy and conventional modern drugs.

The thing is, bundling those practices together implies that they're of equal merit, which is misleading. If he was providing effective care using conventional modern drugs then he could practice Ayurveda, Astrology, sacrifice a goat and make his patients watch Coronation Street for the difference it'll make. The drugs will still work.

And of course, it's entirely possible that your grandfather knew this but carried on providing the other treatments because it's what the general public expected / demanded; if people distrust modern drugs and have faith in traditional practices, there's an argument that providing both is the more responsible thing to do if it gets people through the door.

The danger comes when people (professional or otherwise) start advising "alternatives" [i]instead[/i] of proven efficacious treatment, which was the crux of my OP. "Alternative medicine" really is a potentially life-threatening misnomer and it's high time we stopped using the term. It's usually not medicine for a start, and shouldn't be promoted as an 'alternative' to anything. "Complimentary therapy" is far more accurate a term; complimentary suggests that it's something to be used in parallel with proven treatment, and therapy because it makes you feel better.

TL;DR - If you think that Aromatherapy is going to heal an aggressive bacterial infection then fill your boots, but don't stop taking your antibiotics.

I liked his stories of working in the interior of the Amazon in the 60s and realising very quickly that in such remote places local herbal medicine was a must due to the sheer remoteness after contracting some waterborne nastiness and being treated by local plant remedies.

Sure. "Herbal remedies" aren't in and of themselves nonsense; or at least, not all of them are. Some modern drugs have their roots in herbal medicine (Aspirin, for example). In the Western world, we have the good fortune to be able to use these ingredients or artifical derivatives thereof to produce medicines in a convenient form and in a controlled manner so that dosage is carefully measured (and, yes, pharmacutical companies can turn a healthy profit); but in less developed areas that don't have this luxury the natural form of the drug may well will still work.

But, we've still got the "association" logical failure present in the first paragraph. Just because some herbal medicine can work doesn't mean all of it should be equal credence. Each individual claim should be judged on its own merits.