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FWIW, IT (which is a pretty broad sector) can be viewed as a junk job, or can be viewed as infrastructure which is pretty important. A hospital booking or patient records system, rail traffic control, electricity grid control etc. It's not all tech bros working at Facebook while playing ping-pong.
I work in IT and I would say my particular job is useful to the company (reducing security risk of a data breach of sensitive info as well as improving process efficiency), but noone is going to die if I stop going to work.
The junk jobs are a symptom of society losing understanding of what’s important.
So nothing connected with computers,no theatres no cafe….
“Blessed be the fruit.”
Handmaidens Tale U.K. version anyone 🙂
No jobs junk just because you can’t see the value in it doesn’t mean it has no value.
IT, cafes, and most definitely theatres are junk jobs. If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
The modern world is built on IT infrastructure and essential to life we know it. If it were removed we'd cease to function. It'd be little different to removing our road networks. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean the world is not completely dependent on it.
You can argue that life was better before IT, or could be better if we transitioned to a world without it, and you may or may not be right, but as it stands right now it's the underlying infrastructure of almost everything we do.
Yeeeeees - under the rule of "don't say something on the internet that would wouldn't say to somebody in person" I think that perhaps you want to revise your tone re: "junk" jobs. Maybe stick with the already established and understood "non-essential" to avoid sounding like a bit of a dick.
All paid jobs are, by definition, valuable to society - in that they provide somebody with paid employment to feed their family, pay taxes etc.
*some people here don't understand what a junk job is.
It's very often not the poorly paid unskilled jobs ..
IT........are junk jobs. If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
Pretty sure IT was fairly crucial in the whole WFH thing that kept many areas of the economy functioning, enabled all the government support packages to be implemented, have coordinated the vaccination programme.....
*some people here don’t understand what a junk job is.
that's perhaps because it's not a real thing?
Some peoples view on what is/isn't a "junk" job seems to be based on their own limited understanding of how society works. Suggesting that "IT" jobs are "junk" is derisible.
Find out how essential IT workers are when the banking system falls over, and nobody can fix it.
But JIT is about cost cutting ultimately.
And choice. And freshness.
Everytime I go to a supermarket elsewhere in Europe I'm generally surprised at the lack of choice for fruit and veg. The UK has an incredibly efficient retail sector with an amazing choice which barely changes all year round. Want fresh strawberris on Boxing day, no problem every Tesco, Sainsbury, Coop etc will have them; you won't find any in France or Portugal.
*some people here don’t understand what a junk job is.
It appears to be jobs they don't like!
The modern world is built on IT infrastructure and essential to life we know it. If it were removed we’d cease to function. It’d be little different to removing our road networks. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean the world is not completely dependent on it.
+1
Quite possibly the biggest self own of ignorance on STW for a while!
some people here don’t understand what a junk job is.
Watch and learn 🙂
Quite possibly the biggest self own of ignorance on STW for a while!
Hold my pint......
Really don’t understand where supermarkets make their money
because of the hugely deregulated and 24/365 nature of the finance industry..
Companies/industries are viewed as investment vehicles only.
Has become the norm. The "financialization" of business has become hugely widespread. Tesco makes most of it profits through careful investment. It raises the funds to do that through selling stuff. Most airlines make a good percentage of their profits through hedging options on fuel futures.
it’s a lazy and poor term ‘ junk jobs’ , a lot of middle management jobs and higher management could be very easily described as non essential ,not all , but they are overloaded in many sectors .
the creation of employment agencies who panhandle vacancies is a real junk job , creates nothing , just extracts off those doing the work , those type of roles are junk jobs, over night riddance would not cause any problems,in fact the failed sales reps who man these roles could retrain into a socially useful occupation like drivers.....
That David Graeber bloke up there on that YouTube is pretty pleased with himself, no?
I don't think I've watched or attended a lecture were the speaker laughs at his own jokes or self-references as much...Also; white middle aged male academic telling everyone else that their job is bullshit? OK then.
those furloughed or industries hit hard by the pandemic can be pretty sure they were/are doing junk jobs.
Ah, not really - manufacturing industries were furloughed, but middle management and accounts continued working from home.
IT, cafes, and most definitely theatres are junk jobs. If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
Lol, which pandemic were you in? IT kept half the economy afloat. I don't think you really know what 'IT' actually means, do you?
A large part of it is just like the lorries. They bring the physical things people need, whereas IT systems bring the digital things people need. Which are things like payments of money, and communications. Almost any time you interact with a business IT is involved.
This thread is an interesting read. Junk job seems to be different things to different people. But basically I think it boils down to people thinking "I don't see the value of a job/sector. Any sector/job I don't see value in junk"
The example above about recruitment agencies. Recruitment is a big overhead for an organisation - getting an agency to do it for you is a real saving. Not just in saving loads of time for (often senior) staff doing the recruitment but also de-risks the process because you tend to get better candidates (as the agencies are professionals at recruitment) and if they don't workout it's way less hassle for everyone to move on. In the big corporates where I've worked, using agencies the stages of recruitment to produce a shortlist of 3 or 4 candidates is a massive benefit in both time saving and reducing hassle - and so money. so it's not "junk"
white middle aged male academic telling everyone else that their job is bullshit? OK then.
Just like climate activists who aren't childless hair-shirted hermits living in a shack. Or socialists who go to a fancy beach wedding. 🙄
Or socialists who go to a fancy beach wedding. 🙄
Aren't socialists allowed to go to weddings or is it just Owen Jones who is banned?
“I don’t see the value of a job/sector. Any sector/job I don’t see value in junk”
This. People increasingly are happy to dismiss things they don't understand as being things we don't need.
... on the IT jobs being junk - I'm going to be generous and interpret this as the way that IT projects are set up lots of roles, structures, ceremonies, jargon could look like there is a lot of redundant activity.
I think this partly the eternal workers versus managers battle. Just that the workers are developers, TAs etc and the managers are product owners/PMs etc. From outside all paraphernalia or projects can look wasteful and bizarre. Inside the developers just want to get their heads down and do stuff and not be hassled by the seemingly endless reporting and analysis. That doesn't mean that the perceptions are correct, just that perspectives are narrow - It also doesn't mean that all the management and reporting is adding value - but it doesn't mean that all management and reporting is without value
That's not to say that any sector or business is optimally structured or that wasteful energy isn't expended - it's just nonsense to suggest that whole sectors or swathes of work within particular sectors are junk - or non-productive - is just nonsense
Junk job seems to be different things to different people.
Yeah I think that's fair. To me an element of it is "stuff done more cheaply by humans" is junk. Car washing springs to mind. We used to have a machine in every town that can do that job quickly and cheaply, now the opposite is true, all the machines are either broken or idle, and every town has a team of blokes doing it for a fiver...That's junk. Same for fruit picking, or other veg. The machinery exists to do that job. That farmers don't invest in it is the sign of an industry that's failing to thrive (insert your own own villain here). That's junk also
Car washing springs to mind. We used to have a machine in every town that can do that job quickly and cheaply, now the opposite is true, all the machines are either broken or idle, and every town has a team of blokes doing it for a fiver…That’s junk.
Probably more to do with the cash in hand black economy and money laundering for organised crime. That and people's laziness.
What if humans do a better job? Our local automated car washes are cheaper than the hand wash equivalent. Why do people choose the human option?
What if an agricultural landscape with the workforce removed ends up a biological, environmental and social desert, like much of North America?
Most jobs can be done away with. Is a junk job any that can be reorganised out of existence by automation and changing what we produce? If so, that's many of us.
Anyway, one person thinks that managers in the NHS and GP practices is a junk job, another thinks that someone working in IT in telecoms have a junk job... it's all about people failing to see the value in the work of others. We can't hope to ever understand the specialisms and toil of everyone else... but we can do them the service as not dismissing what they do as "junk".
Just like climate activists who aren’t childless hair-shirted hermits living in a shack
It was a joke (sort of) I'd bet that any WASPY tenured male academic - especially in anthropology could be replaced by some-one more qualified or with greater insights. Academia is littered with junk jobs (for the boys)
Yeah I think that’s fair. To me an element of it is “stuff done more cheaply by humans” is junk. Car washing springs to mind. We used to have a machine in every town that can do that job quickly and cheaply, now the opposite is true, all the machines are either broken or idle, and every town has a team of blokes doing it for a fiver…That’s junk. Same for fruit picking, or other veg. The machinery exists to do that job. That farmers don’t invest in it is the sign of an industry that’s failing to thrive (insert your own own villain here). That’s junk also
Isn't this just business/capitalism/government policy. If it's cheaper to use labour than machinery, then market forces will push to use labour to remain competitive. It's up to Government's to regulate the market to redress the balance - increase minimum wage, regulate hours, holidays, working conditions etc.
I'm all for more regulation as increasing minimum wage, improving conditions can drive investment in technology and skilled people to design, build, maintain and operate it - creates a virtuous circle - increased productivity, reduced costs, higher quality
Unfortunately - it require stricter government regulation and government investment to kick start the process. I wouldn't be looking to the current Government for this.
It kind of brings us back to the original point about labour shortages...
Same for fruit picking, or other veg.
Hmm kind of depends on the crop and also the size of the farm.
What if humans do a better job?
I think they might be able to, but it should be a premium option i.e. not done as cheaply. People chose the human car wash because incrementally the difference between the £3.50 machine and the £5.00 gang of blokes isn't worth worrying about. My argument is that if it's AS cheap to employ a human, it's probably junk.
Just like climate activists who aren’t childless hair-shirted hermits living in a shack. Or socialists who go to a fancy beach wedding
You object to rising sea levels and the extinction of species, but I notice you are using a computer. Curious. I am very intelligent.
I’m all for more regulation as increasing minimum wage, improving conditions can drive investment in technology and skilled people to design, build, maintain and operate it – creates a virtuous circle – increased productivity, reduced costs, higher quality
Does create a bit of a problem for good chunk of the unskilled population, you replace 50,000 seasonal fruit pickers with a few 500 machines and a few hundred technicians / engineers to support them. However, even less jobs for the unskilled....
...well apparently there's a terrible shortage of workers to fill unskilled jobs so...
Hmm kind of depends on the crop and also the size of the farm.
Yes. Obviously if we want human to carry on doing things that could be done by machines (for historical or tradition, or whatever other reason we deem socially important) then some roles should obviously continue as long as they have value to the society. Priest, crofters, basket weavers, tonal singers what ever. But they should be paid accordingly. Same for things like hill farms or growing infinitely delicate things like water-cress or whatever. If it has cultural value, it goes without saying that society should value it.
Does create a bit of a problem for good chunk of the unskilled population, you replace 50,000 seasonal fruit pickers with a few 500 machines and a few hundred technicians / engineers to support them. However, even less jobs for the unskilled….
This has always been seen as an issue as technology has progressed from the industrial revolution onwards - but never really materialised. I guess part of the answer is new opportunities arise over time and improved conditions mean less hours worked. I also guess change happens over time so society can adapt.
The fruit/crop picking thing is a real problem. There was a farm recruitment chap speaking about it the other day and the main issue with UK based staff is that the workforce needs to be moved around.
Pick crops at farm in location (a), move workforce to location (b), move to location (c) etc., etc. The overseas workers come just to do that job for a few months so they have no family or social life to get in the way. Getting UK workers to put their lives on hold for a couple of months is a hard-sell!
it’s a lazy and poor term ‘ junk jobs’ , a lot of middle management jobs and higher management could be very easily described as non essential ,not all , but they are overloaded in many sectors .
the creation of employment agencies who panhandle vacancies is a real junk job , creates nothing , just extracts off those doing the work , those type of roles are junk jobs, over night riddance would not cause any problems,in fact the failed sales reps who man these roles could retrain into a socially useful occupation like drivers…..
At last someone with an understanding of the term junk jobs.
It's not meant in a derogatory way, although egos can get bruised when they are identified as occupying a junk job.
Probably more to do with the cash in hand black economy and money laundering for organised crime. That and people’s laziness.
Anyone doing a car for a fiver is breaking a law somewhere.
At last someone with an understanding of the term junk jobs.
Really? Because that is not an example of a junk job, it is an example of many different companies outsourcing/sharing a function that they all use and don't wish to replicate and staff internally.
Anyone doing a car for a fiver is breaking a law somewhere.
Our local Police are inspecting all the hand wash places in the region over concerns of modern slavery.
[re automation] I also guess change happens over time so society can adapt.
Yes, this has literally been going on for over 200 years and it hasn't been a problem - quite the reverse.
Personally, I'm glad I don't have to do shit jobs for shit pay - quite happy to let a machine do that. The money injected into the economy by the machine can fund me doing something more interesting.
I think the definition of pornography applies to junk jobs. I can't define it but I know it when I see it.
Actually, that's not true. Only the person who is actually doing the job knows whether they are doing a junk job or not. I, for one, don't plan on telling my employer just how much of a junk job I am doing until Basic Income is established.
The only way to figure out what percentage of jobs are junk is to get people to self report how junk their job is. Good luck with that.
For the record, my job is well over 90% junk. The actual useful work I do in a 40 hour week could probably be done in 2 hours.
Personally, I’m glad I don’t have to do shit jobs for shit pay – quite happy to let a machine do that. The money injected into the economy by the machine can fund me doing something more interesting.
Exactly, efficiency, in fact what I believe one of the relies to this thread said, which is the real reason for lower wages, worse pensions etc than many other seemingly equivalent countries (i.e. they are not equivalent, their economy is stronger).
The money injected into the economy by the machine can fund me doing something more interesting.
This is one of the ways UBI could stimulate the economy. If people didn't have to enslave themselves to poorly paid jobs they don't want to do, stuff like carwashing would be forced to automate, providing well paid jobs for engineers, software developers and machine manufacturers etc.
As Graeber says in that video above, we've built a religion around work which doesn't make any sense. The weird logic of 'earning' or enabling our leisure time by doing work we hate - which often has little use beyond keeping us busy - drives the urge to consume and all the problems we have which derive from it.
This is one of the ways UBI could stimulate the economy.
Yes I'm a big fan of the idea of UBI, because it would give people power over their own lives and if your job was shit you could leave. But as said, it needs to go with rent controls otherwise private landlords would just siphon all the money off.
I believe society's aim should be to give everyone a good fulfilling life. But that's not the Tory idea - they want to let whatever happpens happen - which, since the industrial revolution at least, has created a country full of wage slaves. Great.
Yes I’m a big fan of the idea of UBI, because it would give people power over their own lives and if your job was shit you could leave. But as said, it needs to go with rent controls and/or provision of adequate, affordable social housing otherwise private landlords would just siphon all the money off.
There is absolutely no reason for us to live in an economy based on 'work or starve' and yet here we all are. Even in supposedly progressive Nordic countries the basic principle is still the same, just not enforced with the same kind of zeal you find in the UK.
Our local Police are inspecting all the hand wash places in the region over concerns of modern slavery.
A multiagency investigation of every staffed car wash in my council area found no evidence of modern slavery.
The crux of the matter is do we want to live in an exploitative system that is rapidly running to climate armageddon , with resources , both natural and human to be exploited for a few wealthy people ( statistically) or can we put a big stop to all of it .
It my seem a mammoth task , that’s how we’ve been conditioned to think , nothing you can do , but that’s false , in 1916 in russia the bolsheviks were about 5,000 in number , yet 18 months later they had seized power from the corrupt feudal fsarist regime , not going to argue it didn’t go wrong after , point being a few people with the right ideas at the time , before internet , phone systems effectively in a country the size of a continent did it , it literally shook the capitalist world to its core , we need a newer version of that , but it has to be a worldwide movement or it would be crushed , therein lies the problem .
Our kids , / grandkids are the ones going to really suffer with the revolutionary change that’s needed more than ever .
It my seem a mammoth task , that’s how we’ve been conditioned to think , nothing you can do , but that’s false , in 1916 in russia the bolsheviks were about 5,000 in number , yet 18 months later they had seized power from the corrupt feudal fsarist regime
That was then. The difference now is that the Bolshevik revolution has already happened.
Also, things were a lot worse for them than they are for us now, that's how they managed to pull it off.
not going to argue it didn’t go wrong after , point being a few people with the right ideas at the time
The right ideas? They weren't that right, were they, given the shit show that followed? Yes, PARTS of Marx are great, but others I don't personally think so.
That might work eventually for HGV drivers but how do we ‘train’ people to pick fruit and pack meat? The wages would have to get a lot higher to encourage enough UK workers to do it IMO.
i suspect that you leave them with no choice by stopping their benefits.
They weren’t that right, were they, given the shit show that followed? Yes, PARTS of Marx are great, but others I don’t personally think so.
I think a post-mortem of the Bolshevik revolution and subsequent soviet regime is probably a bit beyond this thread 🙂
Back on topic though, the main problem in our globalised capitalist society is that we have been fooled into thinking there is no alternative. Capitalism itself, and especially the financialised, exploitative, kleptocratic version of it we have now is a relatively new thing which was designed rather than being some natural 'that's the way things are' state. It could just as easily be changed to something else, and there are signs of that happening following covid and the crash of 2008.
or can we put a big stop to all of it .
No, I don't think we can, there are too many vested short term interests for anything to be allowed* to be meaningfully achieved before the planet largely become inhospitable for most of humanity. I think overall humans as a species will probably survive. (we've been here before, the fossil record shows a narrowing of all humans across the planet to perhaps as few as 2,000 individuals) but the way we live now? No.
The planet will hopefully have a chance to reset, humans will perhaps have learned a lesson (perhaps not) but I think we've got a hundred, maybe two at best before it's curtains
* for what it's worth, outside of one or two proper morons, I reckon most 1st world politicians/leaders would be OK with a massive reset of "How We Live" I think they're just too in thrall to the folks that whisper in their ears and pay the bar tab to actually make the jump all together. They've lost too much trust and belief in themselves to realise that, and make it happen.
Capitalism itself, and especially the financialised, exploitative, kleptocratic version of it we have now is a relatively new thing which was designed rather than being some natural ‘that’s the way things are’ state. It could just as easily be changed to somethinelse, and there are signs of that happening following covid and the crash of 2008.
think if you can look and read marx and engels 1848 communist manifesto , there is a very concise and accurate summary of global capitalism, and how it was inevitable , it does eat itself in its more benign forms , hence it’s not reformable or remotely controllable , it needs to be replaced with need not greed , love not hate , and all given the opportunity to flourish without favour .
They weren’t seers , just very astute economists / revolutionaries/ philosophers.....
Really don’t understand where supermarkets make their money – my local supermarket shelves are bare with the exception of frozen pizzas, ice cream, high-sugar cereals, fizzy drinks and booze. Fruit, veg and fresh produce are mainly empty. If the supermarkets were genuinely interested in the health of the nation they’d reduce the number of high-sugar cereals and hydrogenated fat products on their shelves to create space for the stuff in demand.
Why would they be interested in the health of the nation? Their aim is to sell food and other goods to people in a profitable manner, and also convince people who currently shop at a competing supermarket to switch to them, to further increase profit.
If your local supermarket contains a large proportion of "junk food" then their extensive market research has indicated that this is what the customers of that particular store wish to buy.
UBI, while being obviously the correct answer has a gigantic flaw - the implementation of UBI will suddenly mean there are almost no key workers and our society will collapse and it will be Mad Max as hell!
If you get a living wage for doing nothing, it is going to take quite an offer to get you out to work for someone else. The current labour shortage we have an its effect on supply chains is nothing to what happens after UBI.
I still think we should do it though.
As with all these things, they only work if the majority of people want them to, believe in them and change their attitudes in line with them. The society must want them to happen
People have been brainwashed over the years into accepting that the current system is the only way and happiness is achieved via having more than someone else. How many threads just on this forum about what £50K car should I buy, what is the best £5K bike, my house is worth £700K etc,. it is all about money.
A multiagency investigation of every staffed car wash in my council area found no evidence of modern slavery.
Not what's happened here in the East Midlands, a few have been caught for slavery, a lot more for breaching minimum wage and other tax offences.
Ironically, it looks like capitalism has (inadvertently) delivered what it always promised, but never actually materialised to anyone but those at the top…
Choice
For example, I have 2 mates who worked in hospitality for years. During Covid, as everything was shut down, they had to find jobs in other areas. Which they didnt struggle to do.
Now everything has opened up again I asked them if they would be looking to return to the hospitality sector
After considering the question for approximately a quarter of a millisecond, they replied “not a ****ing chance!”
Why the hell would they go back to working longer, antisocial hours for shit pay?
Looks like plenty of other people have reached the same conclusion in a variety of sectors. So it’s not just the EU workers all going home, plenty of UK nationals have thought ‘bollocks to this’ after analysing their priorities over the last 18 months and concluding that their jobs are shit, and they can do better
So good luck filling those vacancies for bar staff, chefs, restaurant managers and fruit pickers. Those people are all off doing something else
rudebwoy
Free Member
The crux of the matter is do we want to live in an exploitative system that is rapidly running to climate armageddon , with resources , both natural and human to be exploited for a few wealthy people ( statistically) or can we put a big stop to all of it .
It my seem a mammoth task , that’s how we’ve been conditioned to think , nothing you can do , but that’s false , in 1916 in russia the bolsheviks were about 5,000 in number , yet 18 months later they had seized power from the corrupt feudal fsarist regime , not going to argue it didn’t go wrong after , point being a few people with the right ideas at the time , before internet , phone systems effectively in a country the size of a continent did it , it literally shook the capitalist world to its core , we need a newer version of that , but it has to be a worldwide movement or it would be crushed , therein lies the problem .
Our kids , / grandkids are the ones going to really suffer with the revolutionary change that’s needed more than ever .
Very much this^^^
You only have to read through this thread to see there are too many sheeple unable to think outside of what they think they know .. and ignorantly assume its wanting to return to the 1970`s.
Our natural world is literally on its last legs due to how our societies work. Human greed, consumption and ignorance is way out of control. We need a big rethink, maybe a reset.
Covid has been horrendous for millions of people. But let us hope it drives a rethink and change in society. Its difficult to imagine we can maintain how we are doing things today for another 100 or 200 years when you look back at the damage we have done in the last 50 years ... we have destroyed or damaged more than is left.
sheeple
Ooo… edgy.
I stopped reading there.
Nice new username by the way.
sheeple
Anybody using that word I automatically assume can't think for themselves since it's become the go-to term for people who have nothing else to say but insult people who don't agree with them. That's not thought, it's the complete lack of it.
A simpler life I can wholeheartedly endorse and firmly believe paves a path towards happiness. I don't however think for 1 second it'll actually happen.
If it were to happen though, I think it would be technology that makes it possible, to balance a simple and fulfilling life without the wars, the famine, disease, etc... It's entirely possible to have the best of both worlds, it's not one or the other. It's the political drivers that are the problem and the general crappy attitudes and shortsighted thinking of the human race.
Back on topic though, the main problem in our globalised capitalist society is that we have been fooled into thinking there is no alternative.
Indeed. Largely by the media, which is largely run by rich people who like the status quo.
The memory of the 70s will due out bit by bit though, and they won't be able to invoke it. Hopefully that'll help.
The memory of the 70s will due out bit by bit though, and they won’t be able to invoke it. Hopefully that’ll help.
Nah. See 'Blitz Spirit' and other shite clichés uttered by folk who never lived through it.
UBI, while being obviously the correct answer has a gigantic flaw – the implementation of UBI will suddenly mean there are almost no key workers and our society will collapse and it will be Mad Max as hell!
If you get a living wage for doing nothing, it is going to take quite an offer to get you out to work for someone else. The current labour shortage we have an its effect on supply chains is nothing to what happens after UBI.
Depends which 'key workers' you mean. A lot of nurses and carers etc do it despite crap wages, because they want to make a difference and help people. So a UBI might mean more people can afford to do work like this.
But yeah, I doubt too many people would be Hermes drivers or shelf stackers if they didn't need to be...
I would predict a fair exodus from the NHS, teaching and many other key roles on the introduction of UBI, not everyone to be sure but more than enough to cripple them. UBI topped up with a bit of low stress casual work vs the stress of teaching feral kids or dealing with people who have put themselves in hospital and want to take it out on the people trying to look after them, hmm tough choice.
Never quite understood how UBI would be funded, sorry don't buy into the magic money tree version of economics some on here preach. Also if we all get the same where does that leave people with additional needs,nor do we have a sliding scale of UBI based on need and income, we could call it social benefits. Seems like a good system in principle even if it's been badly implemented, and there's the rub, even if UBI is a great polciy you can guarantee any elected government would screw up it's implementation.
You underestimate people. Everyone I know in the NHS or teaching are perfectly capable of earning the same money or more elsewhere for fewer hours and less stress. There are people who genuinely want to make a difference. And during the pandemic many people took on delivery jobs as much to keep busy as anything else. The idea that UBI would lead to a nation of inactive layabouts doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny. It’s very Daily Mail in fact.
I used to work in a 24/7 plastics factory. Machines would run 24/7* churning out plastic ****ing buckets, all week, all month, year after year. Could never get my head around the need for some many ****ing plastic buckets. ****ing hated that job with a passion/despair/proximity-to-depression. Thanks for listening!
* except they didn't because it was a ****ing shithole and the machines were ancient, filthy, stinking, noise place, and stillages literally stacked to the ceiling full of rejects.
UBI only works if it's an absolute base minimum for survival. But it's livable, and you get it automatically. So you can walk out of a shit job and survive. Ormyoucan cut hours to be with your family more, and survive.
Obviously you can't just pay people good money not to work at all, that would be an altogether more difficult goal!
IT, cafes, and most definitely theatres are junk jobs. If taken back to basics none are crucial to society as covid demonstrated.
are you serious? IT is an unnecessary job? that the pandemic proved this? how do you think people worked from home?
how do you think JIT supply chains work?
how does tesco online enable people to buy food without exposing themselves to a risk of infection.
you must be a troll
unulales
Joined August 30, 2021
Welcome back. 🙄
Just like climate activists who aren’t childless hair-shirted hermits living in a shack. Or socialists who go to a fancy beach wedding. 🙄
Any plans for this year? 🤣
Any plans for this year?
Lake District this weekend in a fancy hotel. Missing the family holiday home in Marbella to be honest. I could do with some sun 😀.
UBI would fix much and break very little.
Ironically, it looks like capitalism has (inadvertently) delivered what it always promised, but never actually materialised to anyone but those at the top…
Irony would suggest a naive belief that it was not a very well controlled and orchestrated buy in and support of a system that delivers exactly that, I'd call it inevitability.
If you get a living wage for doing nothing, it is going to take quite an offer to get you out to work for someone else.
Far from so. firstly UBI will not be at the level of a nurses wage. that would be absurdly high.
What it would do however is simply benefits and taxation systems immensely and with the correct taper provide a bigger incentive to work as marginal tax rates are reduced. At the moment the highest marginal tax rate is paid by those earning minimum wage and getting top up benefits - its a huge disincentive to work if you one get to keep 20p in the pound when you are on the edge of poverty
UBI only works if it’s an absolute base minimum for survival.
That would be key, and pitching it to cover regional variations in living costs would be key.
I think UBI "could" be an interesting solution to the whole benefits/subsidies/ tax mess that I've worked in for 18 years. It just worries me that no country has managed to bring in a working model yet to prove it works.
The supporters of the govt seem to use magic money tree as some kind of insult , yet the policy they call quantative easing , is know as printing money , a much more simply understood , if flawed , method of attempting to control economics .
That QE has been going on for years , it was said to be a temporary measure , is not referrred to by any of these drum rollers of the free market .
The QE has just propped up existing banks/ corporations , A UBI would be the most efficient way to kickstart any economy , all that primer would be spent in the system , not hoarded on balance sheets .
The real problem for the tories and their ilk is the ideology , they hate the idea of collectivisation , goes against the individualistic theories that underpin capitalistic endeavour .
The danger of UBI though , is like tax credit , it could be used to subsidise poor jobs/ exploitative employers , and again vastly subsidise the already stinking rich .
Without strong trade union representation, to ensure terms and conditions aren’t undermined , it could become another good idea , railroaded by the state .
In global terms , though , it’s navel gazing .
Depends which ‘key workers’ you mean. A lot of nurses and carers etc do it despite crap wages, because they want to make a difference and help people.
UBI is based on this well meaning but naive thinking. However nurses and carers want what's best for them and their families just like everyone else though.
Its unrealistic to think if they had an opportunity to earn a wage that allowed them to spend more time with their families, drive a fancier car, and afford a fortnight on Crete each year that they would still choose a low paid job with unsociable hours just because they are doing a job that makes a difference.
With so many jobs now being identified as key worker roles, they could argue to themselves stacking shelves in ASDA is making a difference.
UBI works on assumption that people would find a job they enjoy doing, and that gives them motivation to do it.
Some will enjoy being Consultant neuro surgeons .. some will enjoy cleaning sewers.
UBI only works if it’s an absolute base minimum for survival.
Nonsense - thats the old " starve them to work " ethos. It works best when it set at a level that allows a basic decent standard of living and has a relatively slow taper.
Nonsense – thats the old ” starve them to work ” ethos. It works best when it set at a level that allows a basic decent standard of living and has a relatively slow taper.
Agreed.
I think the biggest benefit of UBI is that it will allow people to work when they are actually capable of working.
By that, I mean that I frequently find myself not in any kind of mental state to work. I still come to the office and I still 'technically' do my job but I'm fairly miserable to be around and tend to bring those around me down. It would absolutely be best if I was not in the office for certain periods.
At other times I am bursting with enthusiasm (not very often these days, to be fair), coming up with and implementing new ideas to improve efficiency for everyone, and just generally being awesome.
The longer I stay in a job the more time I spend in the first state and the less time I spend in the second state.
I think if I was able to pick and choose when I worked it would be better for everyone and I don't think I'm alone.
If your local supermarket contains a large proportion of “junk food” then their extensive market research has indicated that this is what the customers of that particular store wish to buy.
Nothing to do with influencing the purchases to the most profitable lines then? Once something has been destocked you can't buy it so the change is irreversible. Poor communities have poor mobility so can't shop as easily at the next supermarket
I think ubi is a great idea.
I just dont think us as a nation could handle it. It would be extremely exploited. How would you police it for say people doing cash jobs etc so theres reduced tax revenue.
I also think a large portion of people would just leave their work.