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The nationality of those affected is irrelevant, unless you are some sort of bigot.
Back to tbe context (of this being indicative of a post-brexit failure) you'll need to ask someone who voted for brexit who they thought they were voting to protect against this sort of thing. I suspect a lot would have assumed the 800 were good British folk and they are indeed bigots.
that they weren’t blaming brexit.
Of course it's about Brexit, how could it possibly not be? Brexit is ALL about "gaining a competitive edge" over the EU, which means being able to hire and fire as much as you want. P&O may not being saying that their poor results or losses are because of Brexit, but there' s there's clearly been a measuring at P&O board level weighing the business gains or losses about how much this will cost them. Yeah, they may have broken the law, but those 800 workers are gone, and by the time this has gone through the courts and fines levied (maybe) they'll have traded all that time with cheaper labour.
This is literally the Brexit that the likes of Raab and Rees-Mogg foresaw. This is supposed to be how it works.
you’ll need to ask someone who voted for brexit who they thought they were voting to protect against this sort of thing
Like the RMT union?
I suspect a lot would have assumed the 800 were good British folk and they are indeed bigots.
I am asking you. I assume that many people working on P&O ferries aren't Brits. Why do you assume they are?
Why would you assume they aren't?
(I mean, if we're just going to play a long and boring version of "Challenge The Assumption", why not make it a two player game?)
it’s definitely redundancy as they are not replacing the sacked staff, they are buying in this service from a subcontractor
If UK law applies (and I think that's the point in doubt) then TUPE applies. See ACAS link and scroll to Service Provision Changes. If TUPE applies there should have been consultation, and employment terms should be preserved if for those who transfer, and there are rules about redundancy.
Why would you assume they aren’t?
Because both the transport and the service industries employ a high number of non Brits. It's not exactly complicated. Would you likewise be shocked to discover that many people working for the NHS aren't actually British?
The nationality of those concerned is irrelevant.
Have Brits lost their jobs? Yes.
Did the RMT tell British people to vote for Brexit to protect those very jobs? Yes.
Did voting Brexit work? Not in the way RMT sold it, no.
People are only pointing that out, not agreeing with the RMT’s logic, or the logic of Brexit and its many conflicting claimed benefits (that will never come).
TUPE would only apply to the employees that were actually transferring, and my understanding (which could be mistaken) is that they are not being offered that opportunity.
I'm not denying that rules were broken about the dismissal and redundancy. I'm just saying that it does appear to be redundancy. If a company decides to no longer employ people to do X, and instead buy it in as a service when required, there is no requirement that they arrange that their newly-redundant employees should get equivalent positions with a 3rd party in order to do the same work. Of course there are some situations where this does occur, but many where it does not. In many cases, there just won't be jobs for these people at all, as the work is simply no longer undertaken (or at least not at the same level).
When TUPE applies, employees are automatically transferred to the new employer on similar terms to their previous employment, though they can decide not to start work for the new employer (but they won't get a redundancy payment if they do that*).
I did read that all employees had been offered places on the new terms with the new employer, but I can't find it now. As the working terms and conditions are different, I can't see how that can be a TUPE transfer. This situation is a little complicated as it is an out-sourcing coupled with a "fire and re-hire on worse terms". It appears that the latter can be lawful, so presumably if** it would have been lawful to do it and offer re-hiring, it would also be lawful to do it and offer an out-sourced job.
* I did this once, it was interesting. You don't have to give any notice, you just don't turn up on transfer day. The new employer may have absolutely no idea how many, if any, new staff they will need to hire. Being a nice chap, I gave some notice of my intentions. I got an unfair dismissal payment as I argued that it wasn't a transfer governed by TUPE and they didn't fancy taking it all the way to a tribunal. Obviously I already had another job lined up.
** which will always be a contestible issue as far as I can see.
People are only pointing that out, not agreeing with the RMT’s logic, or the logic of Brexit and its many conflicting claimed benefits (that will never come).
It's got bugger all to do with brexit. Unless of course you can explain why you believe this would not have happened had the UK remained in the EU.
I'm not sure gloating that P&O are still able to take advantage of free movement despite brexit somehow strengthens your case.
It’s got bigger all to do with brexit. Unless of course you can explain why you believe this would not have happened had the UK remained in the EU.
Which would be undermined by Irish Ferries having done the same thing...
It’s got bigger all to do with brexit.
Brexit hasn't stopped this happening. Despite what RMT claimed when encouraging people to vote Leave. I copied and pasted from their current website earlier in the thread. The fantasy hasn't come to pass. Brexit hasn't improved the position of their members, and/or seafarers/offshore/ferry workers, one jot.
Brexit has changed RoRo forever between UK and its neighbours. This puts P&O in a worse operating environment then they would have been if people hadn't voted for Brexit (expecting, in good faith, multiple contradictory benefits, including but not limited to the fantasy that the RMT were promoting).
A different perspective for you lot. I talked to my sister today who is pro Brexit.
She see the P&O debacle as a failure of Brexit. "She voted for Brexit to stop this sort of thing happening".
Now, it's a control group of one... but I suspect her view is likely to be shared by many that voted Brexit and believe whole heartedly that we really would take back control and protect and improve the lot of "British English workers".
I suspect they are in for a very abrupt and rude awakening.
(Disclosure, I'm a confirmed remainer.)
She see the P&O debacle as a failure of Brexit. “She voted for Brexit to stop this sort of thing happening”.
That was the RMT position.
Brexit hasn’t stopped this happening.
No it hasn't. And as it could have just as easily have happened had the UK remained in the EU it is pointless banging on about brexit. As the legal expert in that Guardian article said, brexit in this case "is a red herring", however much you might want to milk it.
Are you going to blame brexit every time capitalism acts in a callous, uncaring, and greedy, way? Because of course capitalism is always kind, caring, and generous, in the EU.
Time to let go. Even the leader of the Labour Party accepts that reality.
No, I’m going to point out that Brexit has failed to deliver what people were told it would deliver, on top of damaging lives and livelihoods both inside and outside the borders of the UK. People didn’t get what they voted for. Sadly we did get what we voted against.
The nationality of those concerned is irrelevant.
Totally agree but it does beg the question - why, then, were you asking about British jobs in the first place?
I wasn't.
Are you going to blame brexit every time capitalism acts in a callous, uncaring, and greedy, way?
when the RMT suggest to their membership that voting for Brexit will stop capitalism acting in a callous way then yes.
No, I’m going to point out that Brexit has...
Knock yourself out on the brexit thread - that's why it's there.
when the RMT suggest to their membership that voting for Brexit will stop capitalism acting in a callous way
LOL! This is getting silly now!
pondo
The nationality of those concerned is irrelevant.
Totally agree but it does beg the question – why, then, were you asking about British jobs in the first place?
ernielynch
I wasn’t.
Ernie, 7 hours ago.
ernielynch
“British jobs” what do you mean British jobs?
Yeah, so I asked what someone meant talking about British jobs as I consider it completely irrelevant.
I thought it was irrelevant when it was first mentioned, I thought it was irrelevant when you asked, and I still think it's irrelevant now. HTH
Well, there's nothing like getting bogged down in a string of irrelevant questions to really bring a thread alive - thanks for the treat.
The opposition parties really should be campaigning on this and making P&O's action, which has received universal condemnation and united people in a way that very few industrial disputes (if any) do, a watershed moment.
Good to see our resident Lexiteers are still just as full throated in their support for Nigel, Boris and Jeremys Putin-funded project
Hurray for socialism
#usefulidiots
Sorry Ernie, you’re wrong about it not being Brexit. It’s a direct impact of Brexit. It’s OK to be wrong.
Jeremys Putin
Wow. This has to be a new low for you binners.
Just facts. Take them as low as you like
Have you forgotten that a month ago your hero was defending Putin and saying this was all NATO’s fault? Same as he defended him about the Salisbury poisonings
At least he’s consistent. Wrong about absolutely everything.
From experience over the last two years with P&O, both covid and Brexit have shafted them. We use the hull-Rotterdam crossing at least twice a year and the Cairnryan-Larne routes about an equal amount.
The Hull-Zeebrugge and Rotterdam ships were always previously full and the Irish route generally at least 50% capacity.
On pride of hull/Rotterdam it was easy to see the drop off in trade: the upper vehicle deck is exclusively PAX while the lower deck is freight and awkwardly sized PAX. On our crossings both last summer and in 2020, both were practically empty. As in: on one crossing they didn’t put any cars “upstairs” as there was no freight “downstairs” to weigh the thing down. No HGVs, unaccompanied trailers. Nothing. In summer ‘20 we were planning on cowering in our cabin with a picnic rather than risk using the restaurant, but as we were one of about 4 families onboard socially distancing was easy - even at an all you can eat buffet. It was properly like a 59000t Marie Celeste. Last summer was similar - a few more nutters like us escaping for a few weeks, but really crew outnumbered us greatly.
The fall in trade made P&O kill their zeebrugge route completely and sell the old Norsea/Norsun off to SNAV. That route was massively popular with freight.
On the North channel prices have gone wild for pax (£380 to get home now!) though freight is still dirt cheap (family ship 40t loads of cement over all the time: £70 to you. Yes £70!) but still the ships are empty. You can roll up to cairnryan and be one of about 50 cars in the queue. On a ship that can carry 375. Totally unsustainable.
I see the Dutch flagged ships are back running: wannabe prison ship Norbay is pootling across to Dublin while her Cypriot sister is moored in Liverpool. Pride of Hull is obstructing the berth in hull. As soon as they can get her off stand (it’ll have to go to anchor as she won’t fit through the king George dock lock) I reckon pride of Rotterdam will set sail again.
We’re booked on POH on the 8th. I can’t quite make my mind up if we’ll sail, or if I want to sail. Clearly they’re a scum company in the nestle mould.
Ernie is correct that Brexit did not allow this, and others are correct that it did not stop it.
However the point of being in a trading block like the EU is mutually beneficial trade and work arrangements.
Brexit has reduced those trade benefits, making the ferries less viable (companies try not to operate services that lose money - which is fair enough).
Covid caused travel restrictions on top of the Brexit shambles - even less viable.
But Brexit made those covid travel restrictions worse again for the UK. EU to EU restrictions existed but they were generally either shorter lived or less onerous or both.
Now could P&O still done this with the UK in the EU club - probably.
But companies are money driven and tend not to do this sort of thing when they are making a nice return on their investment.
Was Brexit alone the cause of this - no.
Did it contribute - yes, whatever schoolboy idealism about Brexit might say.
And yes, the RMT look a bit stupid.
At least he’s consistent. Wrong about absolutely everything.
https://twitter.com/OborneTweets/status/1502201248690454529?s=20&t=0hwadzklLukFmtwKvXbi1Q
It’s got bugger all to do with brexit. Unless of course you can explain why you believe this would not have happened had the UK remained in the EU.
it’s got plenty to do with Brexit. Why do you think this action only affects those on U.K. contracts and not those on french or Dutch contracts
I also don’t believe p&o actually made a loss. I’m sure their accounts say that. But I suspect they also show a huge payment for something to the parent company as a tax avoidance weeze
Covid caused travel restrictions on top of the Brexit shambles – even less viable.
Exactly this. As PAX we would have been denied entry into NL last summer if I'd not had my Irish passport. The Dutch authorities forbade tourist travel to NL for third-country citizens, but were open to any EU citizens. At check-in we were told to hide our Bristish passports and only show the Irish ones. Many EU countries were similarly restrictive. To get to austria we had to go through NL, belgium and France - spend 10 days there and sneak in via Switzerland and Lichtenstien. Nobody else was prepared to risk that for a holiday. Holiday PAX generate cream of the profit. Our politicial relationship with europe during covid had a massive effect on tourist travel.
If you don't beleive that: I mistakenly handed over my useless British passport on the way home (I thought I needed to as it was on my PLF). The dutch border guy was like: "How the hell did you get in? You guys are not allowed in!" I quickly handed over the proper one to which he responded: "Oh, that explains it, I thought we had a problem."
We've burned our bridges. We're no longer accepted and that's having effects right now at P&O.
Why do you think this action only affects those on U.K. contracts and not those on french or Dutch contracts
I appreciate that not everyone will have read all the posts but it's pointless to keep asking the same questions.
Without repeating everything and going round in circles endlessly, a former British prime minister proudly boasted, quote:
"The changes that we do propose would leave British law the most restrictive on trade unions in the Western world"
EU membership did not protect UK workers from what a UK PM claimed were the most anti-trade union laws in the Western world.
Also you might find reading this article useful :
https://www.thelocal.fr/20220318/why-did-po-ferries-axe-uk-jobs-but-keep-its-french-workers/
If you can't be bothered reading it all here is the critical point :
However, French workers enjoy greater protection than their British colleagues thanks to the Code du Travail (labour code).
Despite the claims by some people EU membership does not mean that electing national governments has no consequences due to everything being decided by the EU.
Binners - just when I think your bizarre obsession with Corbyn can't get any weirder you still manage to surprise me. Ranting about Corbyn-Putin on a thread about P&O Ferries? Instead of using every thread with a vague political angle to go into a rant about Corbyn why don't you post your rants on the Corbyn thread which no doubt is still active? As it will constantly bump up the thread I'm sure your rants will still be read.
Despite the claims by some people EU membership does not mean that electing national governments has no consequences due to everything being decided by the EU.
Er... who said that? Other than those that wanted people to vote for Brexit?
Yes Kelvin, it seems that the views of some remainers are now converging with the views of right-wing brexiteers......... the EU decided everything
As a direct result of Brexit DP World/ P&O changed the registry of 6 of its GB registered ships from the UK to Cyprus to take advantage of tax and uhm being in the EU.
it’s got plenty to do with Brexit. Why do you think this action only affects those on U.K. contracts and not those on french or Dutch contracts
Do we have to repeat the point that Irish Ferries did this years ago?
the EU decided everything
No one has said this. Stop making stuff up.
It has been pointed out that the claims made by the RMT as regards the benefits of leaving the EU for ferry staff have not come to pass.
The negative effects of Brexit on the ferry business that P&O depends on have been explained in boring detail by many posters.
That is all.
No one in this thread has said that the EU decide everything, have they. Stop setting up your own arguments.
Yeah plenty of people seem to think that the EU has far more influence than it really has. I know that 'stop making stuff up' is a common line of attack for you but perhaps you need to be more honest about the truth.
Please point out my dishonesty in this thread. Thank you.
Yeah plenty of people seem to think that the EU has far more influence than it really has.
I don't recall reading that on the side of a bus
The opposition parties really should be campaigning on this and making P&O’s action, which has received universal condemnation and united people in a way that very few industrial disputes (if any) do, a watershed moment.
Let's try and get some agreement going in this thread...
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1505464817175388161?s=20&t=DjQa9X4RV7jpX1j3GOoZag
https://twitter.com/LouHaigh/status/1505872256974696454?s=20&t=3V7u4hlrUx9Bo-7-BmA7mw
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1505884775336267777?s=20&t=58E2daS1NOXFItgohL61jw
How on earth can a company get away with paying people £1.80 and hour? 😳
It's not just a question of what the legal minimum requirement is, it's paying somebody that amount without wondering how they were meant to actually live/exist on that.
I wonder how many multiples of that figure the people taking the decision to sack all the staff are earning?
How on earth can a company get away with paying people £1.80 and hour?
Everybody wants to pay as little as possible for their shit. The market will find a way for that to happen
According a Johnson spokesman employers would simply ignore the law so there is no point passing legislation :
A spokesman for Prime Minister Boris Johnson said: "Using threats of firing and rehiring is completely unacceptable as a negotiating tactic. We expect companies to treat their employees fairly.
"However, there is insufficient evidence to show legislation will stop the practice or will be effective."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58997916
I am actually.at a joint Nautilus/RMT rally outside parliament right now and Brian Gardiner has just spoken, he was unsurprisingly very angry, interestingly the employment lawyer who drew up the private member's bill is also here.
Angela Raynor has also spoken, I was fairly impressed, as has the TUC general secretary, and a spokeswoman for the European Transport Union Federation.
The RMT general secretary has just made the point that the RMT has no problem with the nationality of the crews as long as they receive the pay and conditions that the RMT has negotiatated. He alleged that P&O agency's original plan was to replace the crews with Russian officers and Ukrainian crews but that for obvious reasons that plan went tits up, no idea how true it is.
The rally is really for the media, there seems plenty here including foreign media.
Barry Gardiner?
MPs and Union staff have made it clear the government have tools beyond just legislation, Johnson is just pretending not to understand what is being called for, and what he and his government can do. Legislation is only part of the minimum response expected of him (and not just by engaged opposition MPs and Union spokespeople, but by plenty of the public as well, I would hope... if the media cover it well). He can't just shrug this off (well, experience suggests that he can, what I mean is that it is a deceit to suggest that this is all beyond his power to act). Start with the freeports, and who the government will or won't partner with there, and the responsibility as regards workers pay and protections for staff connected with freeports as well as ferry/transport links.
£1.80 an hour is an absolute fortune if you're Filipino, have no accomodation or indeed living costs while onboard and only have to travel home once a year. Ask DFDS' crew: we've had numerous conversations with them on quiet crossings. The way they dote on any kids they meet breaks my heart - their own kids are at home with grandparents while both parents are away earning a living at sea.
P&O have always had a quotient of Filipino cabin service staff - housemaids, cleaning staff and waitresses. What I assume they're doing now is expanding that to include the stevedores, deckhands, chefs and possibly junior officers.
How on earth can a company get away with paying people £1.80 and hour? 😳
It’s not just a question of what the legal minimum requirement is, it’s paying somebody that amount without wondering how they were meant to actually live/exist on that.
I wonder how many multiples of that figure the people taking the decision to sack all the staff are earning?
Ah, damn, hot_fiat got there first. All the Filipino's I sailed with would do 6 month trips, home for one or two then back to sea. That earned them a house in Manilla, one in the country and all the wives, mistresses and girlfriends they could keep up with. Not the life for me but they worked hard for it.
Barry Gardiner?
Yes sorry I meant Barry.
Anything else to report from the rally?
Barry Gardiner is another of the moronic lexiters who probably though brexit would stop this sort of thing happening. He's not the brightest bulb in the box.
He's actually a very smart cookie... but he did get completely tied up in knots between 2016 and 2019 when it comes to Brexit... like the whole of the Labour front bench. He was often sent out to do the media rounds to justify a position he'd been proposing the opposite of the same week! It's ruined his chance for higher politics, but he's still a hardworking MP. He's no moron. I often disagreed with him, and got exasperated with whatever he was trying to convince his interviewers of on the evening current affairs programmes... but then, seemingly, so did he the next time he appeared on them.
Labour can demand whatever they like but will have more luck campaigning for the tide not to come in.
The reality of this very distressing dispute based on the press reports seems to be:
- The trading subsidiary has made 3 years of (substantial) losses - reportedly now running at c£1m a day due to the latest change in fuel costs
- Irish Ferries can undercut P&O's operating costs by 25-35% because they have used low paid maritime contracts since 2005
- The rate of P&O's losses will accelerate further as Irish Ferries increase their number of boats / compete on more like for like routes
- Irish Ferries sacked their own workers and rehired maritime workers whilst their trading company was registered in an EU member state AND that member state had a minimum wage
- Current P&O employment contracts are under Jersey employment law so there's no scope for individual claims under UK employment law / tribunals
- This is a genuine redundancy. The work will not be done by new employees, it will be delivered as a service from a company headquartered in Switzerland and fulfilled by international workers on maritime contracts entered into outside UK law
- P&O have offered up to 9 months salary based on length of service - substantially above the legal minimum
- Based on the above it would seem to be a legal yet risible change and P&O will pay the redundant workers a lot more than they legally have to.
Demanding that P&O rehire the workers on unaffordable contracts and continue to lose money because their costs are significantly higher than one of their main competitors will just result in the company being forced into bankruptcy.
Labour either know this and are just going through the motions for political point scoring or they don't know it in which case they are wasting everyones time and giving false hope to the workers.
hot_fiat - Aren't a lot of the Pride of Rotterdam staff Filipino? In addition to the cabin crew, I seem I remember quite a few on the car deck etc (they also had a fleet of random bikes and bsos stashed at the far end of the car deck - presumably to occasionally escape the ship when in port).
Barry Gardiner is another of the moronic lexiters who probably though brexit would stop this sort of thing happening.
Gardiner is fairly right-wing and voted to remain in the EU. I am assuming that your remark is based on the fact that he was opposed to Labour's disastrous 'second referendum' policy which handed Johnson such a huge majority, and presumably you supported.
Gardiner is smart enough to know that the UK'S current employment laws have nothing to do with the EU.
Labour either know this and are just going through the motions for political point scoring or they don’t know it in which case they are wasting everyones time and giving false hope to the workers.
To demand legislation to provide greater employment protection is a perfectly reasonable position to take.
The fact that there is little or no chance of it happening with a Tory government is all the more reason why Labour should be demanding it.
There will be an election in 2 years time and voters need to understand that the Tories have zero interest in social and economic justice. They need to understand that there is an alternative. They have to be offered hope. There is nothing false in that and it's hardly a waste of time.
I don't however feel that it is an issue solely for Labour which is why I said that it is an issue for "opposition parties" ...... SNP, Greens, PC, LibDem, etc. It is an issue which the Tories need to understand will cost them votes, and not least in the "red wall" seats.
Let’s drop all the almost reflex reactions as regards Breixt, and get back to today’s rally… any other speakers Ernie? Anything new said? Anyone follow parliament today, did Labour get a vote on this today?
@mick_r yes I think they were. Not the officers but general workers & deckhands.
<Uncomfortable opinion sigh> Ok, from a consumer perspective this isn’t as bad as it seems. We get to keep a number of sea routes that would probably just close. The other thing is, well… the British ships were always a bit down at heel when compared to the Dutch ones. A bit prematurely tired, the cabins not quite as clean, the food not quite as good. And that goes back a long way. I remember being on Norland after she got back from the falklands. You could tell she’d been used as a POW ship. Many years later after she’d been lengthened and heavily refurbished, you could still tell. Norstar wasn’t like that.
When Norland struck the pier on the way out of Europort one night, very nearly capsized and it took two months to get my dad’s car back, we weren’t really that surprised.
Remember Roy Kinnear’s character from Juggernaut? That.
</Uncomfortable opinion sigh>
Based on the above it would seem to be a legal yet risible change and P&O will pay the redundant workers a lot more than they legally have to.
If that's the case then they would have been much better off consulting about it well in advance and doing it with the minimum of fuss. The way they've done it has attracted hugely bad PR, which may be significant in terms of lost passenger custom (freight customers will probably go with the cheapest).
They’ve done it so as to avoid the risk any strike action, or similar. Remove/replace staff immediately to ensure routes keep running. It stinks, but they can afford any fallout. They know that once this is old news, the UK government will be working with them again on freeports, and won’t do anything to interrupt their running of ferries.
any other speakers Ernie? Anything new said?
I didn't really hear anything new said, it was clearly designed for the media. A large amount of big Labour and trade union names. Plenty of northern/Scouse types including the general secretary of Nautilus whose speech was the only one which made me feel a bit emotional. He was devastated, 200 of his members have been sacked and it's not a trade union which is used to taking militant action. I think he was moved by the working-class solidarity which was fairly new territory for them.
The RMT speakers and officials all looked and spoke like Bob Crow - big baldheaded thuggish looking geezers who spoke with eloquence and passion in South London accents. It was really weird, it's as if the RMT have a laboratory somewhere producing clones of Bob Crow. I found it warmly reassuring.
The only speaker I didn't hear was Jeremy Corbyn as he was the last speaker and I didn't hang around to listen to him.
It wasn't only lefties there, I noticed Geraint Davies a blairite MP who I personally know from the days that he was a Croydon MP was milling around.
The reporter of the TV crew next to me was looking into the camera and speaking in a language which I didn't really recognise, so it was obviously getting coverage beyond the UK.
It is the smallest rally I have ever seen with such big names btw. Although there really wasn't any room for many more.
I see this problem re-occurring when looking at business from a purely mathematical viewpoint.
Sack staff --> Get cheaper ones --> raise living standards --> staff demand higher wages --> sack staff
It is the smallest rally I have ever seen with such big names btw.
Let’s see what the UK TV news teams make of it this evening.
As a direct result of Brexit DP World/ P&O changed the registry of 6 of its GB registered ships from the UK to Cyprus to take advantage of tax and uhm being in the EU.
I'd take exception to the "direct result of Brexit" bit. Irish Continental Group, parent of Irish Ferries, (HQ Dublin, EU) have registered their fleet in Cyprus (also EU) and the Bahamas (not EU, but on the EU tax grey list)
Cyprus has the 11th largest fleet in the world and 3rd largest in Europe and offers employment and tax advantages. One of these is "The wages of officers and the crew are exempt from income tax" ( https://www.chambers.law/why-register-a-ship-in-cyprus/)
Read what the ITF (The International Transport Workers’ Federation) think about Flags of Convenience. You'll also find their thoughts on P&O on the same site
Sack staff –> Get cheaper ones –> raise living standards –> staff demand higher wages –> sack staff
You then move to the next low wage country and "hopefully" by the time you have cycled through them all another country has had a collapse and so is now the new low wage lot.
The RMT speakers and officials all looked and spoke like Bob Crow
The restless spectre of Bob Crow still keeps Tory ministers awake at night. I wish I'd had him conducting my wage negotiations 😂
The only speaker I didn’t hear was Jeremy Corbyn
You dodged a bullet there then eh, comrade? I'm guessing the word 'solidarity' may have featured once or twice 😉
Did the coverage of this actually make any news broadcasts Ernie? I didn't see anything.
There was some junior business minister on radio 4 this morning crying the usual crocodile tears, but when asked if the government intended to sanction P&O in any way regarding their contracts for freeports, then just started jabbering and stammering and flanneling.
I think we can take that as them having absolutely no intention of doing a damn thing about, while trying to pretend that they are. Same old, same old...
Ex colleague of mine spent many hours across the table from Bob Crow. His assessment was that for all the noise Bob was a pragmatist who cared deeply about getting the best outcome for his members, and that he was much more prepared to compromise to achieve this than his persona might suggest.
Well he had to be doing something right when you look at the outcomes he consistently achieved for his members. He always struck me as the absolute polar opposite of gobshites likes Len McClusky who don't actually seem to be too overly concerned with outcomes for their members, so long as they're kept in the lifestyle to which they've become accustomed, and get to go on telly regularly
I still don't understand how P&O managed to offshore RMT members contracts. That seems like something they'd be all over.
I didn’t see anything.
Nor me.
All the opposition parties look united on this in the commons…
https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1253
Opposition Day: P&O Ferries and Employment Rights
Division 217: held on 21 March 2022 at 19:30
But as already pointed out if they keep them on and continue to lose money then eventually they fold.
Of course if we were in a position to even the playing field in terms of enhanced rights for all operators workers then this wouldn't be an issue but on the outside looking in we can either accept the race to the bottom or pretend it isn't happening until the company goes under.
If you can't run ferries without paying properly, and with workers rights in place, don't run ferries. Anything the government applies to P&O they should apply to anyone else wanting to run RoRo ferries to/from the UK.... and by "anything", I include measures such as partnering with the companies to run ports etc being tied to an agreement on pay, conditions and firing/rehiring/replacing policies. This is one of the (many) times when it is the government (perhaps with agreement/cooperation with other governments) that has to act to prevent the race to the bottom.
Did the coverage of this actually make any news broadcasts Ernie? I didn’t see anything.
I didn't either but apparently it did make the telly, a mate of mine says that he definitely saw Angela Rayner being interviewed at the rally last night, but couldn't remember which news broadcast it was as he claims that he watches news on the BBC ITV and C4 Newsnight.
It did make plenty of other news providers eg:
Btw John McDonnell definitely didn't speak at the rally although he was there, presumably the headline refers to an impromptu interview that he apparently gave to the PA news agency.
IMO the only thing that probably made the small short rally newsworthy at all was the fact the Labour Party deputy leader was there.
The one thing that all the speakers emphasised was the fact that P&O is very far from being skint. Greed is the motivation, not struggling in a difficult economic situation, whatever downturn might have occurred.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/po-claimed-10million-furlough-cash-26498688
DP World was criticised for paying a £270million dividend to shareholders at the end of April 2020 while P&O Ferries cut around 1,100 jobs as travelled collapsed following the pandemic.
All the opposition parties look united on this in the commons…
Yup. The vote was passed by 211 votes to none, with the government abstaining.
Even the Democratic Unionists voted in favour. One of the speakers yesterday mentioned that when even the DUP are onboard it shows just how widespread support for P&O employees is.