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I think there's a case for more expensive ferry journeys, staffed by well paid crew, in a nice environment. Personally, I prefer the boat to flying and would pay more for the experience. If you drive to the chateux in France (as one does), then you can probably afford another 20-30% on your ticket, assuming the journey is pleasurable etc.
If you drive to the chateux in France (as one does), then you can probably afford another 20-30% on your ticket, assuming the journey is pleasurable etc.
Now that is boasting, most of us only have the one.
“where else will it come from?”
Not really my point. “How will will it be shipped” is the real question. RoRo will be replaced with air for high value, and container for high volume. RoRo loses so many of its advantages once you add in delays and restrictions caused by crossing jurisdictions.
panhandj - you're right, no reference to corbyn yet but safi has, completely irrelevantly, levered Starmer and the labour party into the thread.
haha. It just seems like bad business sense - why try to compete against airlines on cost, when you can sell an experience?
StenaLine seem to manage it.
levered Starmer and the labour party into the thread
I posted a tweet from a Labour MP. I’m sure it won’t be the last one to be added to this thread.
RoRo will be replaced with air for high value, and container for high volume
At today's prices I think you've got that arse about face 😉
There's certainly a valid discussion to be had there and you raise a very good point but whilst for the minute it's still relevant we're (me at least) getting very close to the dividing line twixt P&O ferries and yet-another-bloody-Brexit-thread so I'm going to duck out of that here at least - happy to pick it up somewhere else (just not that thread please, for the sake of my sanity 🙏). I tell you we need an STW pub trip to solve these things.
Frank, Kelvin,
Cheers lads, I thought I might have been a wee bit too cryptic...🤣🤣🤣
This is exactly what Brexit was all about. Drive down wages for the normal people whilst protecting the tax avoidance industry shareholders and directors rely on to keep their unjust dividends
The tweets from David Prescott demonstrate his complete lack of understanding of how businesses work.
Another way of writing it would be:
- Loss making ferry bailed out by the state and taxpayers. Continues to make losses. Parent company decide there's a better use for the c£100m a year required to keep it running.
Just reported on radio that French P&O crew have not been made redundant/replaced. Read into that what you will
Parent company decide there’s a better use for the c£100m a year required to keep it running.
2020/21 figures don’t really reflect expected future business.
old dog - if true, expect major demos with accompanying violence at French ports.
if true, expect major demos with accompanying violence at French ports.
I think that was the reason hinted at about why the French crew have not been sacked
pan - yes, I understood your attempt at humour; my comment was more to do with the post above yours.
Also reported that P&O have got around the legal requirements on standard redundancy or fire and rehire by outsourcing the crew ie paying a 3rd party agency to provide a service and the agency employs the staff. So a restructuring of the business model. Be interesting to see if this washes if RMT take them to court
The tweets from David Prescott demonstrate his complete lack of understanding of how businesses work.
No you are showing an extremely naïve lack of understanding of how businesses falsify profit/loss figures through ownership layers to avoid tax and screw workers, this isn't about efficiency or "saving a business" they are a profitable company with strong dividend payments, but that isn't enough for them so "**** the people, worship the profits"
We know how business work, we just realise it is immoral.
Outsourcing 800 staff will not save anything even vaguely close to £100m per year. Its just using an exceptional poor trading year to justify some seriously shitty practice
Yeah but if the captain says he’s the captain, and hasn’t been removed in the correct legal way, then it isn’t up to the police to decide, that’s a legal wrangle, and with the current case backlog it could take months
Not really. Whether the process is correct or not, if the owners don't want them they can't speak for them or act as captain, that's piracy.
Good point there, olddog. The average wage would need to be £125k. haha, maybe the captain but I can't see the potwashers and stevedore's being on that kind of money. Plus, they will have to pay agency fees, so why bother?
Sounds to me like DPW have asked P&O management some tough questions and this is the answer they came up with!
Plus, they will have to pay agency fees, so why bother?
Because they own the agency?
Expect to see the vessels sold (to another DP company) in order to raise capital, then leased back at sale price +big % over ten years etc etc.
olddog -
Annual cost saving from replacing 800 crew with cheaper employees won’t have much impact on £100 million loss.
Say each replacement employee costs £10k less pa; that’s £8 mill so 8% of annual loss.
What else are they doing to improve their financial position?
If nothing, they’re done
“Expect to see the vessels sold (to another DP company) in order to raise capital, then leased back at sale price +big % over ten years etc etc.“
Like the ones for the Hull route that have been up for sale for the last 2 months?
Frank...
But the £100m year loss was one year's bad performance under exceptional trading as I understand it. I've not got time to go through the financial history of the company - but the general point I was making is that there must be a viable business in there some as far as the owners are concerned otherwise they would be scaling down the business. Quoting the £100m seems like a way of distracting the media - journalists aren't exactly brilliant at business stories
But I am speculating like everyone else
Agreed. Radio said they handle 15% of all UK imports! Add that to holiday traffic/day trippers and the demand is always going to be good. They'll have to come up with something good to make this one stick, though.
Still think they would be better trying to add value rather than cut costs.
Also, for the record, I don't own a house abroad!
Is the Russian connection a red herring? If not, how does this help their cause and why leave the EU out of it if they're the ones that really scare Putin?
Or is this just to remind Boris that he is owned and to toe the line?
Think the Russian rumour is just a red herring, P&O are parented by Dubai, who will not be doing anything public to side with Russia just now, they know better!
As for P&O, i wonder how many in the HQ are up for the chop, it just seems to be a badly thought out way of executing this round of redundancies, pre-recorded message, security and back up crews in place to take over, no thought for the 800 who worked for them, just get rid of them ASAP and keep moving.
Hopefully the UK government can do something a bit more proactive about this type of thing, Brexit is the gift that keeps on giving, and this government having belief that the market and capitalism will keep things going is make believe, if we are to live with Brexit, we need to be stronger and show a bit more strength to this type of thing, as stated earlier, can you see the same event happening in France, or Germany?
I think is disgusting behaviour from P+O and as others have said will doing this really save £100m?
Well I was booked from Rotterdam to Hull in May for touring trip. I have swapped to DFDS instead. Different port and adds a few miles to the trip but morally feel a bit better now.
Personally, I prefer the boat to flying and would pay more for the experience. If you drive to the chateux in France (as one does), then you can probably afford another 20-30% on your ticket
Probably quite a small market willing to pay a premium and for a short period (6 weeks summer and a week or two at Christmas). For the rest of the year you are reliant on high volume price sensitive customers.
For the rest of the year you are reliant on high volume price sensitive customers.
I'd suspect they're reliant on freight the whole year and passenger fares are just garnish to be honest.
I could be completely wrong on that mind.
The tweets from David Prescott demonstrate his complete lack of understanding of how businesses work.
Another way of writing it would be:
– Loss making ferry bailed out by the state and taxpayers. Continues to make losses. Parent company decide there’s a better use for the c£100m a year required to keep it running.
You missed the bit about the 250 million pay out to share holders, why?
Well, Dover (which is the busiest UK port) had about as many cars as trucks in 2019:
Year Passengers Tourist Cars Coaches Road Haulage Vehicles
2021 3,102,599 336.296 4,476 2,149,595
2020 4,348,478 608,767 11,777 2,268,525
2019 10,863,262 2,000,966 73,856 2,397,270
Truck volumes were the same-ish during CV-19 and after Brexit!
Granted, they will have less people in mid-February, but there is a huge market there for tourists.
https://www.doverport.co.uk/about/performance/
I don't think they would be particularly price-sensitive. It's a few hundred quid usually. Plus, most travellers can afford to drive a car, have a family, rent/own a house abroad.
Hopefully the UK government can do something a bit more proactive about this type of thing
😂😂😂
Notwithstanding the absolute shithousery of sacking 800 people on the spot, doing it via a pre-recorded video is really dredging the very depths of arseholeness. I hope the bloke in the video gets bed sores and enormous haemorrhoids so can never sit down again.
My irony meter just exploded!
https://twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/1504491186496720898?s=21
Meanwhile, back in the real world
https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1504545623906963457?s=21
And our beloved leaders are choosing this moment to trigger Article 16, chuck the GFA out of the window and start a trade war with the EU
Just remind me… who’s side are we on? I lose track
Well I was booked from Rotterdam to Hull in May for touring trip. I have swapped to DFDS instead. Different port and adds a few miles to the trip but morally feel a bit better now.
I’m booked to come back via Rotterdam next Wednesday, I’ve just booked a train instead.
I’ll have to look at trying to get a refund from P&O now.
Did I imagine it or were the RMT pro-Brexit because it was going to look after their workers rights?
In other news, turkeys pro-Christmas because it gives their lives meaning
🤦♀️ 🤦♂️ 🤦♀️ 🤦♂️ 🤦♀️ 🤦♂️
Did I imagine it or were the RMT pro-Brexit because it was going to look after their workers rights?
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/
2. Leave the EU to end attacks on seafarers and the offshore workers
The EU has promoted undercutting and social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers. The same is now happening in the offshore sector. EU directives also require the tendering our public ferry services.
3. Leave the EU to end attacks on workers’ rights
It’s a myth that the EU is in favour of workers. In fact the EU is developing a new policy framework to attack trade union rights, collective bargaining, job protections and wages. This is already being enforced in countries which have received EU “bailouts”.
Did I imagine it or were the RMT pro-Brexit because it was going to look after their workers rights?
It’s mad, isn’t it? Turns out that Jeremy Corbyn and the Lexiteers turned out to be the most clueless morons to ever walk the planet. Who knew?
He has fairly predictably expressed solidarity with them - he does that a lot - while failing to highlight the fact that this is a direct result of the anti-EU position he’s championed for his entire pointless, moronic life
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1504444130562301958?s=21
The eternal sixth former goes for his usual lack of self-awareness and his utter inability to understand how the world works. Same as his cult-like followers
1st they come for the ferry people. One day they will come for the IT project managers. I’m half joking but it’s already happening at ARM.
When owners have no skin in the game and don’t even live in the same country…
I assume ships need some sort of licence/permission from harbours before they are allowed to dock?
scotroutes
Full Member
I assume ships need some sort of licence/permission from harbours before they are allowed to dock?
To drive it into port the they either need a harbour pilot, or the driver needs a 'pilot exemption certificate' for that port.
Plus ships have a huge list of certificates for various things in order to put to sea.
his entire pointless, moronic life
Calm down dearie, do you need some Camomile tea.
Just a reminder that we've not long passed the 35 year anniversary of the zeebrugge disaster.
Remember who the operator was? And what it then became? P&O have been about cutting corners and making profit for decades. DP World is just a progression of that.
I suppose we (ultimately) ended up with a law for Corporate Manslaughter out of that situation.
If you voted Leave in 2016 or Tory in 2019, this is what you've voted for.
And YOU could be next.
Brexit isn't the destination, it's the vehicle.
Imagine say a group of ten workers who've been sacked buying some rather old cheap cars with their redundancy money then all booking on the same P&O ferry when they are running again. And imagine if half way across the channel they all accidently dropped their keys over the side and just walked off as foot passengers. That would be rather inconvenient for P&O wouldn't it. Probably why they haven't fired any of their French staff
My French riding buddy who I'll be seeing next week (via Eurounnel) wrote to me in complete amazement saying
"I’m shocked that P&O staff are taking it lying down. If it was France, by now they would have burned the ship down, ransacked P&O offices, blockaded the harbour, sent two dozen security staff to hospital and P&O bosses would be under police protection. Whatever happened to the British fighting spirit?"
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Most of us Brits only get angry at the wrong people. So we blame some guy from Poland while happily bending over for the venture capitalist who's actually shafting us.
It’s not even like it’s apathy. It’s far worse than that.
‘We’ voted to leave an economic block that offered protection against just this sort of thing, then voted in a government that was stuffed full of people who’d even written a book detailing how they were going to tear up workers rights.
Turkeys…. Christmas, and all that?
What’s going on with P&O?
It's just the socially accepted norm of transfering wealth from those in this country who have very little, to those abroad* who already have an excess.
*Sometimes it goes to those in this country who already have an excess.
Can I ask - pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
I'm really hoping we see reports of disabled ferries in Dover harbour next week when they try and resume services. Passwords changed on critical log-ins like navigation systems, the odd electronic control card missing, hydraulic systems topped up with water/sand, superglue in locks and keys chucked in the harbour. I'm sure there are many creative ways to really **** up a cross channel ferry.
Isn't Corbyn busy attending an inauguration in Chile?
Otherwise he would have been all over this shit.
I’m sure there are many creative ways to really **** up a cross channel ferry.
Staff it with an entirely new crew?
Can I ask – pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
Pre-Brexshit, they couldn't have done this, no. All employment laws were meant to be a copy and paste job from EU to UK statute. Only somewhere along the line, some workers rights legislation mysteriously went missing.
Nobody ever saw that coming, eh?
Its also worth noting that the parent company responsible for this is working in conjunction with the government on their whole Freeports (tax-evasion and money laundering) project.
I'm sure their are plenty more dubious employers watching this with interest
Can I ask – pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
No they couldn't have, and in theory they still can't. Any company that is planning this many redundancies in one go has to notify the Govt (and any unions I think) at least 45 days in advance.
Can I ask – pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
Yes, they probably could have done it. UK law hasn’t changed (much) in this area. There would be a higher court to take this to, where UK law and/or Government action could be found lacking… but that would be a lot of actual work for the RMT though… where as now they can just complain about it and have no legal process (beyond that the UK gov provides for, ie. neutered employment tribunals) that they can pursue to help their members (current and future) keep their jobs and maintain their rights as workers.
Sorry, should clarify, yes you can make this many people redundant, just not in the way P&O have gone about it.
I thought the point of redundancy was that the role was no longer required. Fire and rehire cannot equal redundancy.
Turns out that Jeremy Corbyn and the Lexiteers
Dunno why you’re having a go at Corbyn (I do really) when he wasn’t in a position to do anything. Had he won the 2019 election this wouldn’t have happened.
Go have a word with the labour rightwingers who made sure that never happened and the Lib Dem remainers who forced an election rather than joining labour to defeat Boris.
Funny how all the French and Dutch staff all still have their jobs. It's fairly obvious which government P&O see as being more amenable to what they're doing. The one now outside the EU, obviously
This really is a disgrace and unfortunately exactly what Brexiters meant by freedom from the EU and reasonable behaviour to save owners a few quid.
Im quite sure that any losses are paper losses using transfer pricing to another group company registered in the owners tax haven of choice. As has been said they found £250m to give to shareholders from this mess. They also found £147m to sponsor professional golf so clearly they aren’t short of a few quid. I hope all those affected especially hauliers and the owners of their container contents sue P&O for all losses caused by delays and inconvenience. Alas post Brexit legislation changes wont do anything to help the sacked staff
Aren't the employment rules somehow different because they are sea-based workers?
“ Pre-Brexshit, they couldn’t have done this, no. All employment laws were meant to be a copy and paste job from EU to UK statute. Only somewhere along the line, some workers rights legislation mysteriously went missing.”
But there’s not a shred of evidence that this is the case - employment laws remain the same.
The coverage in the HR press (including by employment law solicitors) this morning seems to conclude:
- employment law hasn’t changed since Brexit
- unless the workers were on maritime contracts (which is an unknown), DPW have likely crossed employment law and will have a substantial number of cases arising as a result.
- In that eventuality, action against the the parent company can be pursued even if the trading subsidiary no longer exists
- if the workers were on maritime contracts there’s basically no comeback - no least because the ships are flagged from Cyprus
Just about everyone is in agreement that the way this action has been progressed is completely unacceptable - with Starmer and Johnson both saying the same DPW will now be in a very difficult position - and if the workers are not on Maritime contracts DPW should be moving on some of their leaders in short order.
Can I ask – pre-Brexshit, could P&O still have done this or has some law changed since?
Not sure but our wonderful govt definitely approve.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58997916
French employees, still employees
https://twitter.com/kimwillsher1/status/1504469136197316626?t=QUuQjmqlWU-bgURkTB77aw&s=19
The Social Media Team at P&O Cruises are working hard. Maybe time for a rebrand.
P&O Cruises is part of Carnival Corporation & PLC and as such is entirely unrelated to P&O Ferries.
Just about everyone is in agreement that the way this action has been progressed is completely unacceptable – with Starmer and Johnson both saying the same DPW will now be in a very difficult position
I'll eagerly await Johnson terminating the governments relationship with DWP and their freeports project?
Maybe best not to hold my breath though, eh?
Said on the news this morning that the employees contracts were based in Jersey so bypassed UK laws. or something along those lines anyway....
I'm with cheddar on this.
Employment law is written to remove 'probably'; employers actions are either legal or illegal.
As for onza's comment about redundancy - absolutely correct; jobs can be made redundant provided that the legal requirements, including consultation, are met - people are not made redundant.
This is mass sacking with severance payment.
They also found £147m to sponsor professional golf so clearly they aren’t short of a few quid.
At the same time as not filling a 146 million pension hole. They really are charmers.
It’s mad, isn’t it? Turns out that Jeremy Corbyn and the Lexiteers turned out to be the most clueless morons to ever walk the planet. Who knew?
Nah. They're not nearly as clueless as the morons who claimed to support Labour, yet worked so hard to ensure Corbyn never got near to power.
It’s mad, isn’t it? Turns out that Jeremy Corbyn and the Lexiteers turned out to be the most clueless morons to ever walk the planet. Who knew?
Nothing to do with Brexit, AIUI. Still, crack on with the reflex babbling about Corbyn - it gives me comfort that in a changing world some things are utterly predictable.
Employment law is written to remove ‘probably’; employers actions are either legal or illegal.
And can result in payout of a variable size, including as low as zero, even if illegal. The law protects employers more than employees.
Please don't let this turn into one of THOSE threads, just ignore the trolls.
Please don’t let this turn into one of THOSE threads
It's a pertinent point though. Had labour won in 2019 this almost certainly wouldn't have happened as Corbyn would have delivered on his promise to strengthen employment law and ban fire and rehire practices. Trouble is binners and his fellow rightwing travellers didn't want a Corbyn government and this is the inevitable result.
(sorry, it's Friday and I'm not exactly focused on work 😄 )
Anyway...
Employment lawyers seem to be saying that this may well be illegal. If so, presumably P&O know that, and have priced compromise agreements or tribunal claims into their decision.