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All ships asked to come alongside ahead of an announcement. Not going bump, are they?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60779001
certainly not looking good.
Was just about to post this. Hope they're not going bust, they've already stopped the over night from Zeebrugge that we used most years.
Not looking good though....
We're booked to go Hull to Rotterdam next month. I've been trying to change our car reg with no luck and Twitter has been full of people struggling with various issues.
Yeah we've got a Rotterdam to Hull return crossing (going out via tunnel) booked for next month as well.
P&O stating they're not going bust, so could be annoucing a takeover. Or maybe they're part owned by russians...
Folding obviously fuel cost have pushed them too far
P&O stating they’re not going bust, so could be annoucing a takeover.
You don't stop your ferries to announce a takeover
Folding obviously fuel cost have pushed them too far
No - apparently fired all staff with immediate effect and had replacement agency staff waiting on the dock. Suspect that is more legal in shipping than normal land based jobs but I'd be amazed if the MCGA and port authorities were OK with it - how do you prove the agency staff are competent on that particular ferry? how do you find people with the right pilot certificates who are up-to-date etc? and all synchronised so they are waiting to walk on as the old staff walk off.
Hope they have a bunch of lock smiths on hand too as I imagine a lot of people forgot to put the keys back for various cupboards as they walked off.
No – apparently fired all staff with immediate effect and had replacement agency staff waiting on the dock. Suspect that is more legal in shipping than normal land based jobs but I’d be amazed if the MCGA and port authorities were OK with it – how do you prove the agency staff are competent on that particular ferry? how do you find people with the right pilot certificates who are up-to-date etc? and all synchronised so they are waiting to walk on as the old staff walk off.
yep looks like it
https://news.sky.com/story/p-o-ferries-suspends-all-sailings-ahead-of-major-announcement-12568327
has the backing of Dubai-based DP World
Appropriately sounds like a specialist magazine.. as it sounds like the staff are about to get shafted.
If true about the sackings, that stinks. I'm not a habitual ferry user, but definitely won't be using them again if this comes to pass!
sounds like a specialist magazine
Indeed, Dubious Practices World. (right?)
I read that as DrP World.
Hope they have a bunch of lock smiths on hand too as I imagine a lot of people forgot to put the keys back for various cupboards as they walked off.
I wonder if any replacement staff know how to hot wire a ferry...
If true about the sackings, that stinks. I’m not a habitual ferry user, but definitely won’t be using them again if this comes to pass!
And a big +1 to that. We've done the Hull-Zeebrugge/Rotterdam crossing quite a bit, being northerners. But not again if the above comes to pass.
No confirmation re agency staff at the port.
Question asked in HoC; shapps had no answer.
Bad news. Being self-centred I'm just glad we're booked for the tunnel next week.
Stage 2 of BREXIT?
Stop all people going to and from Europe while the UK sails off into the sunset of nostalgic insignificance?
Suspect that is more legal in shipping than normal land based jobs but I’d be amazed if the MCGA and port authorities were OK with it – how do you prove the agency staff are competent on that particular ferry? how do you find people with the right pilot certificates who are up-to-date etc? and all synchronised so they are waiting to walk on as the old staff walk off
As long as the ship itself has all it's certification in place, the crew just need the internationally recognised certification for their position on the ship. They might never of sailed on any ferry ever before but it would still be legal.
It's also very possible that they have retained some of the key positions on a new contract, Master, Chief Engineer, etc.
Their insurance company might not be happy mind.
If true about the sackings, that stinks. I’m not a habitual ferry user, but definitely won’t be using them again if this comes to pass!
Not the first and definitely not the last shipping company to do this.
Missed opportunity: I've not one outlet/person wording it as querying if P&O are staying 'afloat'.
Too poor taste given the potential for job losses perhaps.
If that's true I (quite rightly) can't see the staff simply walking off [ship] with a cheery wave so it won't happen quickly that's going to be a lot of goods not being landed in the UK whilst resolved and a lot of that will be food.
This is going to hurt a lot wider than just the immediate impact on P&O staff at a time when a huge percentage of people simply will not be able to afford it.
The union has told the staff to stay on board when they dock.
How is that legal? Don't they need to do consultations on redundency etc?
83,000 members in the RMT. I can see this spilling over into other transport sectors pretty quickly.
15% of all freight cargo in and out of the UK handled by P&O, meaning we’re dependent on them, but equally they will be dependent on our international trade.
I wonder how much Brexit (eg less trade, but also Irish trade going direct and avoiding GB), C-19 and our government’s inability to organise customs properly will have affected their core business. That 15% will be heavily biased to GB-EU trade, not container ships from China.
If true about the sackings, that stinks. I’m not a habitual ferry user, but definitely won’t be using them again if this comes to pass!
Sadly I suspect that public with a conscience make up a small proportion of their revenue so they don't really care. Freight and people buying on price/convenience are likely their key customers - not sure the people unable to sail today will be too chuffed but they'll get over it if the alternative is a longer journey or higher price every time.
As long as the ship itself has all it’s certification in place, the crew just need the internationally recognised certification for their position on the ship. They might never of sailed on any ferry ever before but it would still be legal.
so no experience loading a vehicle ferry? even if they can do it legally and safely they will have huge disruption - based on my experience on Calmac they quickly squeezing maximum vehicles into minimum space often with nervous drivers is an art.
surely before running with passengers they need to run through emergency drills on that vessel, the need to understand how it handles in different conditions, how it responds to being loaded etc - different if you change 10% of the crew when you can wait till the next routine evacuation drill, man overboard, etc - but will their classification society really let them change all the crew with no actual experience on that vessel?
It’s also very possible that they have retained some of the key positions on a new contract, Master, Chief Engineer, etc.
The bastion of reliable news, Twitter, says all officers and ratings. I'm not sure which would be more surprising - that you could find enough officers with the right pilotage exemption certificates just sitting around, willing to work for significantly* less money, and without this plan leaking out, or that some senior officers would be willing to stay and let their entire team go (whether that be for safety or political reasons).
*its only worth doing something as dramatic as this if its for a substantial saving.
The (separate) company which owns P&O Cruises probably needs to think about an urgent rebrand.
Dubai-us Practices World owns one of the largest container ports in the UK on the Thames, so if this spills over it could be interesting.
Staff sit-ins sound like a thing.
https://twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1504440641966727171?s=20&t=CZK8xLd7fdZyXOaCmeOFIw
Yeah, I was wondering who has the power to 'evict' in this situation. I think I'd anchor up down the coast a bit, break open the stockroom and prepare for negotiations.
No – apparently fired all staff with immediate effect and had replacement agency staff waiting on the dock. Suspect that is more legal in shipping than normal land based jobs but I’d be amazed if the MCGA and port authorities were OK with it – how do you prove the agency staff are competent on that particular ferry? how do you find people with the right pilot certificates who are up-to-date etc? and all synchronised so they are waiting to walk on as the old staff walk off.
I've read, Twitter again that P&O are going to 'Fire and Rehire' all their staff. How true I don't know, but no one ever saved money by using agency staff.
I really don't understand how 'Fire and Rehire' works, or indeed how it's legal! If you fire a single employee without reason, you end up in a tribunal, if you need to let a lot of staff go, you have to pay them redundancy, or you end up in a tribunal, but it seems you can fire your entire workforce without penalty, as long as you offer them the same job back on worse terms. It's bullshit really.
BBC have just announced P&O have made 800 redundancies and there are (unsubstantiated) stories of coachloads of agency workers sat on the dockside ready to board the boats.
The Unions have told the now redundant workers to stay on the boats
The last piece of news I remember reading about P&O was that they were providing free ferry trips for vehicles taking humanitarian supplies to Ukraine. This had them firmly on my "decent company" list - might be necessary to revise that.
I think I’d anchor up down the coast a bit,
I think I'd sit at the terminal I was supposed to be at, blocking access, and refusing to load or unload whilst P&O get billed for the obstruction.
How much per day was evergiven?
How is that legal? Don’t they need to do consultations on redundency etc?
And TUPE rights as well, designed to protect staff when the business continues after a takeover.
How is that legal? Don’t they need to do consultations on redundency etc?
not sure that normal employment law applies to merchant ships!
The Tories probably see the lack of employment rights for merchant seamen as a fine template for the rest of us in our new 'Global Britain'. It will keep workers on their toes if they know they can look out of the window at any time and see a busload of replacements roll up.
The Tories probably see the lack of employment rights for merchant seamen as a fine template for the rest of us in our new ‘Global Britain’. It will keep workers on their toes if they know they can look out of the window at any time and see a busload of replacements roll up.
A good example of the dynamic and flexible world beating British workforce post Brexit. We can all be very proud.
A mate from my town in galloway is chief navigation officer for the cairnryan ferry and from what he's told me this has been bubbling under for a while, he's done his captains ticket but dunno if he's actually captain yet?. Not going to say much else as DP world are a shower of ****s and are quite happy to pay hundreds of millions to shareholders but treat their staff with utter disdain and it wouldn't be past them (with what I've been told) to use any excuse to turf anyone out without due cause.
It will keep workers on their toes if they know they can look out of the window at any time and see a busload of replacements roll up.
Any chance we can test this theory on the current cabinet?
Any chance we can test this theory 9n the current cabinet?
I used the word 'workers', this doesn't include those who class a chat over cheese and wine as work.
I do feel this is an opportunity for Chris Grayling's deep knowledge of the ferry industry to prove its worth, though.
It's utterly shocking.
I'd never realised that ships operating out of the UK had different employment laws - just assumed that the employers chose UK law. Every day is a school day.
Presumably explains why there are unions around the sector, but who on earth regulates labour law and disputes in maritime cases? Do the employers choose the jurisdiction like they do their flags of convenience? So are the P&O guys stuck with some Monrovian boiler plate employment contract?
It gets worse. Apparently there are coach loads of contract 'security' on the dockside to remove any of the scaked staff from the boats if they refuse to leave
The Labour MP for Hull is on Five Live now saying that they couldn't have done this under EU law, but amazingly those EU employment laws never made it on to the statute books in the UK, so sacking your workforce and replacing them with cheaper alternatives is now apparently fully legal
Welcome to Brexit Britain, now with considerably fewer employees rights than before. I bet nobody saw that coming, eh?
Maritime labour convention sets minimum standards for seafarers employment
And you can be certain those minimum standards are very low.
An employer couldn't do this prior to Brexit due to EU employment rights. They now can
Who'd have thunk it?
https://twitter.com/Sh3zz4/status/1504446011401515020?s=20&t=-8Zv52r3Th812MsVbkUaAw
but amazingly those EU employment laws never made it on to the statute books in the UK
Given most legislation was simply copy pasted from one to the other I'd honestly take that with as big a pinch of salt as £350m per week for the NHS. I'm not saying it's isn't true just that I'd like to know exactly which bit of legislation prohibited it and when it was removed by statutory instrument.
Is entirely possible it was a decision or directive mind in which instance unless it was passed into UK legislation previously anyway it wouldn't have prevented anything whilst we were still a member state, such as the working time directive.
“The Labour MP for Hull is on Five Live now saying that they couldn’t have done this under EU law, but amazingly those EU employment laws never made it on to the statute books in the UK“
This sounds like a fairly unlikely (read: knowingly untrue) political comment to me.
All EU law was written into UK law when Brexit happened - in many cases Uk employment law / rights are better than would have been required as an EU member.
So which “laws” are we talking about specifically?
In any event, a £100m annual loss isn’t sustainable but I’d be very surprised if the redundancy route was being used it the intention is to rehire to the same roles as that would almost certainly be illegal.
The one caveat is that maritime employment is different - specifically where the crew live on board and don’t disembark to shore so perhaps that’s the route DPW are going down in order to keep the business going.
Seems to be a lot of it about in shipping at the minute.
The tugboat crews on Teesside are currently striking after the company, owned by Maersk who have made massive extra profits through recent shipping cost increases, have 'offered' zero pay rise this year:
https://www.unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2022/february/teesport-facing-huge-disruption-as-tug-boat-crews-announce-strikes-in-pay-dispute/
And in Lerwick port strike votes are being taken over pay:
https://www.unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2022/february/lerwick-port-faces-imminent-disruption-over-attacks-on-pay/
And that's just from one union. I bet RMT and Naultius have several other significant issues going on. You can't keep screwing workers forever!
Apparently there are coach loads of contract ‘security’ on the dockside to remove any of the scaked staff from the boats if they refuse to leave
But they can't go onto the boat without the permission of the Captain. I wonder how many will give that permission?
But they can’t go onto the boat without the permission of the Captain.
https://twitter.com/karlturnermp/status/1504465523093823494?s=21
Suprised they can employ foreign crews on UK to Uk ferries like Scotland - Northern Ireland. International routes may necessarily have different regs.
Of course stop a companies customers from using the service with travel restrictions and bans for 2 years and there is going to be fallout. I'd point to Covid rather than Brexit as the issue.
I have memory of similarly replaced crews refusing to leave in the past, possibly in Belfast so likely P&O or Stena. Might have been 10 years ago or such.
some senior officers would be willing to stay and let their entire team go (whether that be for safety or political reasons
You can bet your arse they would.
Heard stories when I was a cadet of a cruise company that did just that, union briefed all crews that nobody would be losing jobs, in a separate briefing for officers they said they were being kept if everyone else got put under the bus. They kept their jobs.
But they can’t go onto the boat without the permission of the Captain. I wonder how many will give that permission?
The captain doesn't own the boat and I don't think this applies in this case (especially if they're not the captain any more).
But they can’t go onto the boat without the permission of the Captain. I wonder how many will give that permission?
What Captain, the one they just fired?
I’d point to Covid rather than Brexit as the issue.
P&O received millions from UK gov to help with Covid impact. Effects of Covid on holiday maker bookings is dropping right off, pent up demand is huge. Effects of Brexit on RoRo freight is only increasing though, sadly.
You can’t keep screwing workers forever!
That's true, only so long as they need to eat.
P&O received millions from UK gov to help with Covid impact
I know (off the back of today) they were refused a £150m bailout but no mention of them being given one and I'd absolutely have expected that to have been mentioned given the nature of today's news.
How does the port of registration affect this? PONSF used to cross register their ships so the Pride of Hull/Pride of York/Norland/Norwave were registered in Hull and crewed with British crew while Pride of Rotterdam/Pride of Bruge/Norstar/Norwind were registered in Rotterdam and crewed by Dutch crew. When DP took them over the Dutch ships stayed Dutch and the British ones took Bermudan flags. I assume Pride of Rotterdam staff are fine and the British lot will get the sh1tty stick?
no mention of them being given one and I’d absolutely have expected that to have been mentioned
I’ve read £33 million in 2020 in a number of Irish reports. I’ll find a UK media source…
Guardian: “It was given £33m in emergency funding by the government to ensure freight kept sailing.”
But they can’t go onto the boat without the permission of the Captain. I wonder how many will give that permission?
If the captain has the power to refuse boarding, does he still have that power if the owner has removed him from post? That would seem a rather weird anomaly which prevents any captain ever being replaced against their will - so I suspect will turn out to be a nice idea but not grounded in reality.
The problem with unexpectedly locking yourself in the ship is you've not made any plans - some of those people will have child care, frail parents/partners, etc - you might get help from friends and family for 24 hrs but I'm not sure how long you could endure it. Its not like most will even have spare clothes etc with them.
British ones took Bermudan flags. I assume Pride of Rotterdam staff are fine and the British lot will get the sh1tty stick?
Even if the flaging dictates it, and I've no idea one way or the other, Bermuda is covered by extension of the UK implementation of the MLC in 2016 so the very same legislation that would cover them on a UK flagged vessel.
NL has implemented the same convention so in theory the same rules will apply to NL flagged vessels, however the Dutch approach to taxation and the like of maritime vessels is rather more generous than the UK
(FWIW, its being reported as "across all vessels" on a couple of quick glances at Dutch news but its very much being reported as a foreign news story not Dutch)
I’ve read £33 million in 2020 in a number of Irish reports. I’ll find a UK media source…
Fair do, though in the grand scheme that's actually not an awful lot of money, especially if it's losing 100m a year
Trying to decide if we cancel our P&O ticket and get Stena line to Hook of Holland instead.
if it’s losing 100m a year
It probably will have been, with combined effects of Brexit and Covid. The negative effects of one of those has and is decreasing fast. The other is only increasing, with no sign of improvement on the horizon. If planning for a reduced service with revenue remaining low in future, which do you think is key to that?
Do we know if all the dudes on the dockside are 'forrin' workers?
If so, stick that in your ****ing big fat brexit pipe and shove it up your arse.
Do we know if all the dudes on the dockside are ‘forrin’ workers?
All Eastern European, according to the BBC
The negative effects of one of those has and is decreasing fast. The other is only increasing
Difficult for now to separate the one from the other given the overlap of the two. Presently I think any judgement on the direction really depends on where your stand on Brexit.
Trade between the UK and EU certainly got more expensive as a result of Brexit but did it get any less? There's at best 3 months of pre covid data, and those 3 months largely represent a time frame which would be generally quieter due to January slump in retail and also in which everyone expected everything to go to poo so where possible they built stock in q3&4 of 2019.
If you want to judge where EU/UK trade is going post Brexit on those three months you need to look at things which can't be stock built in 2019 so good and other perishable goods or look at 2019 figures vs 2017 (2015 would be better as it'll get rid of people finding alternative supply which may have already started by 2017).
I'm not saying that it hasn't/won't decrease as a result of Brexit but cv19 aside, on any given day people still want to buy the same stuff. It's more expensive sure but who is going without Dutch tomatoes or French cars specifically because of Brexit?
if it’s losing 100m a year
Does that figure include the "administration" charges from the parent company in Dubai to the ferry operation? Once you get more than a single layer of ownership I would take any claims of losses or lack of profitability with a pinch of salt, it's all lies, smoke mirrors and legal avoidance of tax and responsibility.
Anyway, if employment law ends at the gangplank lets hope laws that allow any forcible removal do to.
on any given day people still want to buy the same stuff. It’s more expensive sure but who is going without Dutch tomatoes or French cars specifically because of Brexit?
Maybe people without jobs?
All Eastern European, according to the BBC
Well if they've got English speakers interviewing people in Hull that's not much of an indication as none of the locals will be intelligible. 😉
In honesty though, the folks are sat on a bus on the Dock so unless the beeb or whomever has gotten on the bus and asked them I'll go so far as to say that's nothing but a bit of all-too-acceptable xenophobia.
In the 70s it would have been all "black people"
If the captain has the power to refuse boarding, does he still have that power if the owner has removed him from post? That would seem a rather weird anomaly which prevents any captain ever being replaced against their will – so I suspect will turn out to be a nice idea but not grounded in reality.
I would imagine it would be powers given to the captain as an agent of the ships owner. Remove the power and you remove the agency.
At the end of the day it's nothing more than a lock in.
Annual cost saving from replacing 800 crew with cheaper employees won't have much impact on £100 million loss.
Say each replacement employee costs £10k less pa; that's £8 mill so 8% of annual loss.
What else are they doing to improve their financial position?
If nothing, they're done.
I would imagine it would be powers given to the captain as an agent of the ships owner. Remove the power and you remove the agency.
At the end of the day it’s nothing more than a lock in.
Yeah but if the captain says he's the captain, and hasn't been removed in the correct legal way, then it isn't up to the police to decide, that's a legal wrangle, and with the current case backlog it could take months 🙂
Is anyone brave enough to order the forcible removal of the sacked crew (I expect Boris is looking for a fridge to hide in).
The captain needs to give Taras Ostapchuk a call.
That'll learn em 😉
With the caveat that It's Twitter, this is what I was waiting for - how much were they paying shareholders as the company loses £100 million a year?
https://twitter.com/DavidPrescott/status/1504447026393669641?s=20&t=CZK8xLd7fdZyXOaCmeOFIw
the direction really depends on where your stand on Brexit
Your “position” doesn’t change the reality of our changed, long term, trading position. Opinion doesn’t cancel out reality. It also doesn’t prevent a shift from RoRo door to door mixed goods multi destination deliveries to other shipping methods (container + air) due to that new position.
I think what they (DPW) will do is basically have cheap labour living on the ship for months/years at a time. This is common on freight/commercial vessels where captains are usually British/Swedish and crew are from Indonesia/China being paid $5/day or whatever and basically live at sea, just go home for christmas.
So, it keeps the prices low, but don't expect your holiday to start on the ferry!
1400 of its staff furloughed during the pandemic, £10m tax payer funded.
They also asked us for a £150m bailout.
Its parent company then paid out £250m to shareholders.
Now pandemic's over, they're sacking the British staff we supported.
Your “position” doesn’t change the reality of our changed, long term, trading position. Opinion doesn’t cancel out reality.
Very true, but what exactly is that reality?
As a non EU member our trading relationship with the USA (other countries are available) changed, do you think that our trade will move there*, do you think it'll stay with the EU and just be more expensive, or do you think the UK will become more self sufficient?
Personally I can't see it changing much in terms of volume, I just see it getting more expensive.
If I was running a cross channel ferry group, I'd expect demand for capacity and growth there of to be broadly unaffected by Brexit in the medium term and I'd expected to be able to charge more for that capacity because everyone expects the cost to go up.
Covid on the other hand has hit demand very very hard, recovery will be slow and return to pre covid levels of trade will take a long while because of the significant delays we're seeing on supply chains and the massive economic damage globally.
The big indicator for me in terms of how the volume will change is "where else will it come from?" and I honestly can't see the answer being anything other than "pretty much where it did before". It's not like RoEU bought from the UK because we're cheap or vice versa.
*if you do, are you liz truss, or Boris, jrm then?
They told everyone they were now unemployed by the medium of a prerecorded message that amounted to 3 sentences
Classy!
Now pandemic’s over, they’re sacking the British staff we supported.
Not alone in that though are they? If you want to point fingers there it's GovUK and the end of furlough to be looking towards rather than P&O et al. The purpose of the furlough scheme was precisely to keep those people in employment during the pandemic.
Now we've got covid done that's all over so companies losing lots of money (either by virtue of magical paperwork or actually losing it) are getting rid of the staff they only kept on for the last 2 years because HMG was paying.
I'm sure Keir Starmer and the Labour Party will mobilise their resources to help the workers, aye right.
End of the second page and Corbyn hasn't been mentioned yet? Standards STW, standards!