[Closed] What would you have done (kid ending up in A&E content)

*phones social services*

My daughter (who is 2 1/2 now) has been to A&E twice with head injuries. The first was an unexplained (at the the time) huge lump on her head, which later turned out to be a bleed due to birth trauma.
The second was due to her pulling a dining chair over (trying to climb up the back of it) and ending up with a whack on the forehead when it landed on her.
We've now been told that if we take her to A&E again with a head injury they will be reporting us to social services as 3 (unexplained) head injuries will trigger a child protection enquiry.

sue the bar for having bar stools too high for a child to safely sit on.

MY kid fell flat on his face onto concrete once. I was sat on a fence and he tried to copy me..
I gave him a cuddle (and took a photo).

I'd have gone straight down to A & E myself, never fanny around with head injuries cos you don't know whats going on under the surface.

That said I remember talking to a friend of mine who's son had fallen down the stairs, banged his head and was being sick. They seemed to think that a spoonful of calpol and cuddle would be fine.

These days, whatever you did would have been wrong in some way.

OOH doctors will always send you to A&E if there is the remotest possibility of paediatric head injury, and A&E will usually make you feel inadequate or worse for something you did or didn't do.

At the end of the day, you had a nagging doubt, so you did the right thing. Don't beat yourself up about it (social services don't like that kind of thing).

To be fair yossarian, a spoonful of calpol and cuddle seems to sort most things out. Even now I'm in my 40's

The grilling is normal with injured children, and is only right. When he was younger fast young git got checked over a few times. Mum and Dad were carefully questioned. One day the GP had a new doc under training assisting. He took the opportunity to give a two-year-old FYG a thorough inspection, commented - 'Ah, the right number of bruises' about his legs. Meaning enough for an active child pushing his limits, not too many or too big.

You can't win with them, if you take them they say you shouldn't and if you didn't they say you should.

You did the right thing anyway.

yossarian - Member

I'd have gone straight down to A & E myself, never fanny around with head injuries cos you don't know whats going on under the surface.

+1

Personally I'd go to A&E for any reasonably hard smack to the head with a child.
I don't think you're wrong for making the judgement you did on the day though, your call and you did the right thing when you had some doubts.

The grilling is commonplace. I treat it as something you have to go through so accept it in good nature. Sometimes they do get a bit personal though so I find waving my fist in their face makes them back off.

You can't win with them, if you take them they say you shouldn't and if you didn't they say you should.

It's all part of our training....

DrP

Wot they sed re: the head injury itself. Falling from a height taller than you onto a solid floor is fairly bad, particularly with kids who'se skulls are fairly soft.

Also, I'd rather every parent got a grilling on child protection issues than every a&e nurse/doctor took the injuries presented at face value, tbh.

Problem with kids these days is they don't spent enough time outside unsupervised getting injured. Then when you do turn up with A&E is stands out like a sore thumb and you get labelled as a child basher. In my day, we were falling out of trees and concussing ourselves every week, just part of growing up.

However, on the way home[s] (when things were quiet enough to talk/think)[/s] when it was less likely to disrupt our nice day out, we decided that perhaps, on balance, we should ring the out of hours doctor...

Sounds to me like you're feeling guilty (quite rightly) for not acting more decisively, and for some reason you feel affronted that a medical professional chose to question your motives on the basis that you chose to ignore a head injury so you could enjoy the meal you'd no doubt been looking forward to.

They probably felt - quite rightly - that if you put your meal before your child's health, there was a chance that you were less than honest in your description of events.

You might think I'm having a bit of a pop - I'm not really, I'm just amazed that someone would make a bad decision and then feel like a victim for being quizzed by a medical professional who was doing their job rather well by the sound of it!

When our eldest was growing up Sheffield Children's staff joked that we should have our own seats in the waiting room - he just suffered from pockets of strong gravity!

Any head trauma is a trip to A&E, the kids' well being is more important than a grilling from Social Services.

(SCH were impressed when he arrived by helicopter after falling out of a tree next to Ladybower - he still has his HeliTed 5 years on!)

So hard to tell. We have two boys (2 and 3) who love to wrestle so they're always knocking themselves and covered in bruises. They've both had pretty big whacks to the head at various times and each time we've been unsure what to do. Generally we just keep an eye on them and watch out for signs of concussion, fortunately we've not had any issues yet and are yet to make the trip to A&E.

FWIW it sounds to me like you did the right thing, it's not like you made her wait in pain while you had lunch! Precautionary measure was a good call if you thought it was necessary - there's absolutely no need to take risks or put yourselves through undue worry.

As for the A&E staff, I'd like to think they have pretty good instincts and realised you were OK but they still have to be seen to be doing 'the right thing'. Unfortunately in this day and age 'the right thing' seems to be not to trust a parent with the care of their children, this is a policy issue not an individual nurse/doctor.

Yeah the way we were thinking was that we didn’t want to waste anyone's time if they just said 'don’t be daft, it is just a bump' (we had checked her eyes (dilating/tracking) she hadn’t been sick, still had an appetite, was stable on her feet, she could remember what she did and what else she had done during the day, wasn't cold or clammy, hadn't lost consciousness, wasn't sleepy).

dont forget if your kid is one of those that's quite clingy or comfortable to cuddle strangers as professionals its our duty to assume they've been sexually abused. as dr p says.... its all in the training.

on a slightly more serious note:

its safer to assume you're all bad parents and work backwards from there, imagine if they missed something? you've seen the news when social workers etc dont notice abuse and somebody ends up dead.... the job they've trained for, worked too many hours for with too much accountability for not enough pay, somehow stick with despite everyone saying 'i couldn't do your job' and deal with things on a daily basis that would render a normal person in tears or shock... well that jobs at risk if they dont err on the side of caution.

Shib - reckon you're being a bit harsh there.

Seems like you did fine to me and yes we will question you about what happened. It appears awful, insensitive and rude for the parents. It's not nice for us to do but it is done for a reason. Of course some ask the questions in a way which makes it sound far worse and that we don't believe you.

Problem with kids these days is they don't spent enough time outside unsupervised getting injured. Then when you do turn up with A&E is stands out like a sore thumb and you get labelled as a child basher. In my day, we were falling out of trees and concussing ourselves every week, just part of growing up.

No that's not the problem. The problem is we see kids who have been harmed and we need to protect kids from being harmed further. Back in your day and not really that long ago it was as 'not really our job' there was a huge case that changed all this which is why now we're expected to ask so many questions.

Obviously you can't go running to the doctor with every bump and scrape but with a bang on the head you need to be very careful as internal bleeding on the brain can be fatal .

25 years ago my son complained of a headache which got progressively worse until he was in and out of consciousness , we took him to hospital where he was stabilised and taken by ambulance to another hospital where he was operated on but was in a coma for 2 months afterwards and ended up braindamaged and unable to live a normal life . The cause turned out to have been a fall while playing football at school where he banged his head , the school didn't bother to tell us which caused delay in his treatment and worsened his outcome considerably .
I am told his case is why now schools always send a note home with any pupil who has banged their head .

Took me 5 days to take my daughter to A&E after an ice skating accident. Turned out she had broke her wrist. 😳

To my defense in those five days she had spent two days on the BMX track. 'kin nails.

If you've ever trained in First AId, you'll know that the rule is wherever a blow to the head is involved, it's a trip to A&E every time, even if there is no obvious injury. With a child I'd say it's even more important.

Obviously if it's just a slight bump then it may be overkill but a significant fall like that is potentially major trouble. It can take 24 hours for concussion to set in.

If it happens in a public place and/or you feel uncomfortable about the potential for a grilling, see if you can get an independent witness to back up your story.

Personnally I think the grilling was justified. HAd you acted immediately then it probably wouldn't have been.

The kids' well being is more important than a grilling from Social Services.

Hear, hear - after all your children are your most treasured possession. Aren't they??

Problem with kids these days is they don't spent enough time outside unsupervised getting injured. Then when you do turn up with A&E is stands out like a sore thumb and you get labelled as a child basher. In my day, we were falling out of trees and concussing ourselves every week, just part of growing up.

That would make loads of sense if the whole multiple visits to A&E triggering social services was a new thing. It happened to me when I was a kid in the early 80s too.

For my parents it wasn't a problem - parents just pointed them out into the garden where I was running around like a loon, and they immediately understood what was up.

Ramsey Neil - Not quite what to say but your post deserves more than a nod as I read it. In the context of the OP's incident it illustrates the dangers of head injuries. For you as a family I can't imagine how you must have felt at the time and how profound the changes to yours and your sons life must have been in the years that followed.

she is fine today, almost better natured than she was

Your daughter or your wife?

I'd say that I'd always take my child to A&E when they'd had a head injury, but in reality I suspect I'd have done the same as you. The grilling is something you have to accept as them doing their job - IME it doesn't take them long to work out what's what (on which basis it does sound like they went a bit OTT with you). Though would you rather they just ignored abuse, in order to not occasionally upset the adults?

Oh, and sorry to hear your story, RN - and thanks for contributing, as it is worth being reminded about how serious even a seemingly innocuous head injury can be.

If you've ever trained in First AId, you'll know that the rule is wherever a blow to the head is involved, it's a trip to A&E every time

Shib - reckon you're being a bit harsh there.

Your daughter or your wife?

johndoh, do you and your family members always store your kids on high surfaces?

kids belong on the floor, or in the cage/cupboard of shame (still on the floor), how else are they to learn who's leader of the pack?!

Theres a lot of people on here saying any bump on the head should result in a trip to A&E. NHS Direct doesnt agree with that.

It gives very specific circumstances when you should visit A&E, falling from more than your own height is one of them though.

I find NHS direct pretty useful for working out when something is wortha visit to a&e and when it isnt.

https://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/CheckSymptoms/SATs/HeadInjury.aspx?action=whofor#progress

Any head trauma is a trip to A&E

I'm not sure you really mean that. My kids bang their heads twice a week or so. I'm sure everyone's do. I do too for that matter. So you have to draw the line between a bump and 'trauma'.

The question is where's the line?

As for the A&E staff, I'd like to think they have pretty good instincts and realised you were OK but they still have to be seen to be doing 'the right thing'. Unfortunately in this day and age 'the right thing' seems to be not to trust a parent with the care of their children, this is a policy issue not an individual nurse/doctor.

Exactly this. Mrs FD came back from work last week after operating on a young baby with a broken arm. She had to get Police and Social involved. Unless the accident can be verified ie a trip at a swimming pool etc, docs HAVE to report it as part of procedure. Mrs FD felt terrible having to do it, as her gut instinct told her that the parent was being truful.

Damned if they do, damened if they dont these days.

"Your daughter or your wife?"
The daughter.

I knew I should have put a smiley 😳

What investigations were done at a&e? I suspect with no adverse head injury symptoms they sat you in for a while and discharged you with advice, as it doesn't warrant ct scan.

Given the list of symptoms you were aware to watch out for in the first place, do you feel in hindsight that a&e was necessary? I don't think I'd have gone unless concerning symptoms arose, but that's for the individual to decide. At work, however, (paramedic) you'd have been recommended to seek further assessment at a&e, mainly to prolong the time you are in contact with medical help, and possibly to address child protection concerns depending on the circumstances (not in your case....).

If you've ever trained in First AId, you'll know that the rule is wherever a blow to the head is involved, it's a trip to A&E every time

Pretty sure that's not the case but I'm not first aid trained.

Would not be upset by staff asking me- it is obvious why they do this.
Would employ some judgement on what to do but probably be over cautious with a kid and even more so if it was not mine.

Sounds like a case of "communication skills" lacking than anything else. As has been said by the Professional Medics, this kind of thing seems to be standard MO these days.

I took my son in to A&E last year, couple of weeks before his 2nd birthday after he ran into a see-saw at the local park and ricocheted onto the back of his head. He was in lots of pain and couldn't walk so we went quite quickly (to A&E) to get his legs and head checked out. Turned out he had broken his leg, nothing wrong with his head though! Anyway, I fully expected to be grilled/visited by SS in hospital. However nothing of the sort happened, I was asked what happened by the Triage Nurse, the Pead. Nurse and the Pead. themself without ever once feeling interogated. In retrospect it was certainly a way for them to assess whether my son was a suspected child abuse victim, but I only realised that much later. It was the way the questions were asked and the manner in which the information was gathered that was the key.

do you feel in hindsight that a&e was necessary?

Sorry johndoh, I re-read my post, didn't mean to sound critical of you, it was more for those saying that "all head bumps must go to a&e " to point out that not much will happen there apart from getting advice on what to look out for if the patient is asymptomatic.

Pretty sure that's not the case but I'm not first aid trained.

I am. It is.

Obviously as a first aider/first responder you can only [i]recommend[/i] what the casualty does (unless they're a) in no fit state to judge for themselves or b) to do otherwise would put them in more danger), but where a child is concerned if they've had a reasonable knock on the head I'd rather trust professional opinion.

Fairy nuff, the OP and his partner made the judgement call at the time and changed their minds when they thought they might be wrong. Getting a grilling was probably to be expected, especially when they delayed taking the child to hospital for quite a while...[devil's advocate]to get their story straight[/devil's advocate] (or maybe the grilling is a standard thing, I dunno...).

Generally with a bad bang to the head, I'd rather let a paediatric professional decide whether I was wasting time bringing him or her in.

This was despite us answering no to all of his questions (ie 'did she lose consciousness?')

He probably decided you needed the grilling anyway. 😉

I am. It is

Good for you but my understanding was that it depends on the on what kind of head injury and the cause. Like I say I'm not first aid trained so may be getting confused with my training.

TomB - fair enough.

I do think, on reflection, that perhaps we did about the right thing. But next time I will be telling her to be careful in the first place! (Her twin had been sat on it and she is normally the clumsy one so I was watching her and constantly telling her to be careful, this one is normally very good with balance and spatial awareness) but I guess it was a busy and noisy restaurant with lots of distractions.

It was a hell of a fall/thump/crumple though. Sent a shiver down my spine and I was shaking for ages afterwards.

Like I say I'm not first aid trained so may be getting confused with my training.

I suspect the difference is that they consider you have sufficient knowledge to be able to assess these things yourself.

@molgrips - ok, we were discussing a kid's fall from a stool onto its head, surely context of the discussion can be taken into account or are do we have to add umptysquillion caveats to each point made?

Anyhoo - all parents should do the maths before deciding upon any course of action:

F s = 1/2 m v2

Where:

m = mass of the object/child (kg)

v = velocity of the object/child (m/s)

W = work done to slow the object/child (J)

F = slow down force (N)

s = slow down distance (m)

If the answer causes any parental consternation then head for A&E.

What would you have done

From what you have said...Nothing appart from give her a bid cuddle and double sized ice-cream and loads more cuddles for the rest of the day.

I wouldn't have rung the docs or gone to A&E.

PS - who gave your wife a "massive grilling" and why didn't you step in?

I suspect the difference is that they consider you have sufficient knowledge to be able to assess these things yourself.

You'd hope so but I thought first aid training didn't say always A&E, seems I may have been mistaken.

who gave your wife a "massive grilling" and why didn't you step in?

1 - The doctor, and;

2 - I was at home with her twin sister (my child's twin sister, not the doctors).

If the answer causes any parental consternation then head for A&E.

Congratulations on bunging up A&E with the hordes of maths-illiterate STWers 😉

Shib - reckon you're being a bit harsh there.

Not at all, the OP's post comes across as a pretty typical STW whinger who thinks he is somehow above being quizzed by a medical professional who is trained to look for signs of abuse and neglect. His wife's response, whilst not particularly comfortable viewing, would have been exactly what the interrogator was looking for, and I for one am glad to hear that they do subject people to robust questioning.

Personally, if it was me and I'd thought the injury was minor enough to ignore it in favour of a meal, and had there been no further deterioration, I wouldn't have bothered the NHS. The fact that he did probably prompted the hospital to put 2 and 2 together and come up with exactly the same conclusion as me: that he thought the meal was more important. Which, if it had been a serious injury, could be described as willful neglect.

So I think he should stop bleating on forums about how his wife was "almost" moved to tears and accept that the way his case was handled was a result of his actions.

I'd have gone to A&E like a shot

Would have quite happily sat there for hours waiting to be seen…. then would have patiently answered all the "grilling" questions.

“my fajitas were going cold.”

Yep … that’s the point …. Mexican is Dog Food.... would have done anything to get out of eating that meal, especially if with the MiL

I think that’s the question you should be asking yourself, in the cold light of the next day is…. Why did pay for that rubbish ??

Ah right so given that your wife was (understandably) on a bit of an emotional-edge already, the "massive grilling" was more likely to have been routine enquiring.

Glad the lil uns ok anyway, which is the main thing.

Ah right so given that your wife was (understandably) on a bit of an emotional-edge already, the "massive grilling" was more likely to have been routine enquiring.

Plus, I suspect alcohol may have been involved...

Not at all, the OP's post comes across as a pretty typical STW whinger who thinks he is somehow above being quizzed by a medical professional who is trained to look for signs of abuse and neglect.

Speak for yourself - it's not how it came across to me.

Speak for yourself - it's not how it came across to me.

Been there, got the T Shirt.

Not sure how an out of hours GP could do much, I'd have just gone to A&E but there you go. Important thing is she's OK.

Speak for yourself

Thank you. I generally do. 🙄

Thank you. I generally do

Your post comes across as the typical STW whinger who likes to find fault with someone just asking a question, as if you've never made a mistake in your whole life.

The OP invited my opinion... I obliged.

The OP invited my opinion... I obliged.

No, the OP asked you what you would've done. The clue is in the title.

aracer - Member
If the answer causes any parental consternation then head for A&E.
Congratulations on bunging up A&E with the hordes of maths-illiterate STWers

😆 Eek - can you imagine an A&E dept clogged with shy, retiring and generally meek souls from STW, none of whom would be offering conflicting advice to the medical staff/each other/passers by.... 😯

Personally, if it was me and I'd thought the injury was minor enough to ignore it in favour of a meal, and had there been no further deterioration, I wouldn't have bothered the NHS.

You've obviously not read my posts thoroughly ranus, so there's an edited highlight.

Not at all, the OP's post comes across as a pretty typical STW whinger

How do you think you are coming across on here and on this thread [ yes we know you dont care ] and for how you are writing it

I suspect alcohol may have been involved...

You revel in doing this sort of stuff and it shows you for what you are
Its not hard to type nonsense and annoy folk so i never really understand why some folk have the need to do this...not enough cuddles as a child perhaps? Big bang to your head and you broke your empathy bone

You've obviously not read my posts thoroughly ranus, so there's an edited highlight.

He's read them fairly well. So in addition to suggesting what you'd done, you then add your own view on proceedings, not missing an opportunity for the sly "alcohol" dig there at the end (with added ellipse for some kind of effect).

So you didn't just offer a "what I would have done" scenario. Which is what ransos is saying.

shibboleth sounds like he would fit right in on mumsnet.

(with added [b]ellipse[/b] for some kind of effect).

It's an "ellipsis". Or an aposiopesis.

It's an "ellipsis". Or an aposiopesis.

Indeed. Thanks, I had a feeling there was something wrong about it as I wrote it down.

So, did you offer a "what I would have done" scenario or did you pepper it with your own unsympathetic views? Whassup? Photocopier sales down this month?

Photocopier sales figures are terrible... I haven't sold one all year. But then, I've never sold one anyway, so I've no idea why you would ask that. 🙄

I did offer an opinion as to what I would do - and I requoted it just a couple of posts ago.

But to be honest, this thread isn't really about "what we'd have done", is it. It's more about the OP trying to assuage his feelings of guilt and foolishness about the whole incident whilst we listen to him flipping the blame issue round to try and portray himself and his poor family as the badly done-to victims of some heavy-handed NHS rottweiler... Fact.

Plus, I suspect alcohol may have been involved...

Seriously - I had had one glass of lime & lemonade, my wife had a glass of blackcurrant & water (that she didn't actually drink).

Good guess though.

If your kid falls over in a restuarant or the park, make sure they're covered in food or bark chippings when they arrive at hospital to avoid the grilling.

I wouldn't take a hungry child (or wife) to A&E - who knows how long you're going to be there?

Not sure how an out of hours GP could do much

But to be honest, this thread isn't really about "what we'd have done", is it. It's more about the OP trying to assuage his feelings of guilt and foolishness about the whole incident whilst we listen to him flipping the blame issue round to try and portray himself and his poor family as the badly done-to victims of some heavy-handed NHS rottweiler... Fact.

No it's not. Unless you're you.

Photocopier sales must indeed be bad this month...either that, or someone with a tattoo has upset you.

Seriously - I had had one glass of lime & lemonade, my wife had a glass of blackcurrant & water (that she didn't actually drink).

There's a chance for you to apologise and take your comment back. Will you be availing of this opportunity?

Good guess though.

Good point. A guess. Based on the same balance of probability that the hospital will have had: Parents take kids to restaurant, kid whacks head, parents choose to continue eating and/or drinking and/or being merry, and then when they've had enough, take the child to A&E.

Even now, we only have your word for it. In my experience (passed on to me by a Police Officer trained in interrogation), when people are lying, they tend to offer rather more detail than necessary without being prompted. Like naming exactly *what* soft drink they had, or even how much of it they imbibed.

So on that basis, and the basis that I don't know you or have any past experience of your integrity, I'm building a picture of a person that puts a meal before his child's health, and might be in denial about a drink problem.

Of course, you may simply be an unlucky victim of circumstance, but the picture that's painted to me is exactly the same as that painted to the A&E staff. Just saying.

of course he will now he knows he was way off the mark he will be faster than a speeding bullet to admit his error...just you wait and wait and wait

BTW Shib - the reason I was asking was because I was genuinely unsure about whether or not we acted correctly - we initially thought we were correct in handling it ourselves but then had doubts which were correctly founded. I was just trying to find out what others would do / have done in similar situations.

Next time she falls like that we will know better what to do I guess.

BTW Shib - the reason I was asking was because I was genuinely unsure about whether or not we acted correctly - we initially thought we were correct in handling it ourselves but then had doubts which were correctly founded. I was just trying to find out what others would do / have done in similar situations.

Next time she falls like that we will know better what to do I guess.

In my experience

So, it's actually not your experience at all.

but the picture that's painted to me is exactly the same as that painted to the A&E staff.

It seems however that the conclusions being jumped to are a bit different though.

why feed him? he[s] wants[/s] needs this reaction as no one could think as he does not even him - I know you can claim you do but really save us

OP you did what many would have done and your child is fine - could have been anasty bump that led to flawed thinking and need for notoriety