[Closed] What would it take for their to be a revolution in the UK?

Gb you seem to be taking rather a long time to suggest that there's always someone worse off than you. Did I get it right?
The ruling classes' position is not determined by family or education or accent but by the way they are connected to the means of production ie do they sell their labour power or do they own and/or control the means of production? I take it you're not suggesting that we haven't had a ruling class since WW1? Where would all that money have gone?

Always seems to be too much focus on

Divert from the point made if you must...

Funny how they all bandied together for the Scottish independence vote mind

Even the use of the word Anarchy, ingrained into everyone from birth as a 'bad' word when really it simply means the desire not to be governed by a 'state' corrupt or otherwise.

That's one, very limited, interpretation of the word. Here's another one, albeit this one's more real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy

Lol says the bloke trying to drop his royals conspiracy back in the pot.

The UK is one of the best places in the world to live, part of that is due to curbing some of the freedoms that the US likes such as being able to be armed to the teeth and not pay for a comprehensive health care system. This is one of those things that a whinging minority bring up when their party of choice doesn't win an election.

What do we want? Gradual change. When do we want it? In due course.

What do we want? Gradual change. When do we want it? In due course.

😀

Lol says the bloke trying to drop his royals conspiracy back in the pot.

The UK is one of the best places in the world to live

Where do you live mike?

Any chance you can stop derailing another thread with your conspiracy theory rubbish?

Why have a revolution, when you can tut conspicuously, shake your head, then have a bit of a grumble?

Leave all that frightful nonsense to the hot-headed Johnny foreigners

Any chance you can stop derailing another thread with your conspiracy theory rubbish?

Are you saying that a discussion on revolution should not in some way involve the blurred lines between politics and the monarchy?

mikewsmith - Member
Sounds like a place I'd love to live, punishment for the narrow minded idiots.

You'd like to punish those who disagree with you?
Ah, I see.

The bottom line is that even if you're at the very bottom of society, like the people you see on the plethora of poverty porn programmes of late, things really aren't [i]that[/i] bad. Yeah... its not much fun, but its not like you're starving, or living on the street.

Despite IDS's best efforts we're unlikely to end up with a sizeable mass of the population living in abject poverty. And thats what generally fuels revolutions

Nope just those that quote out of context, free speech is not a vehicle for hatred based on discrimination.

Are you saying that a discussion on revolution should not in some way involve the blurred lines between politics and the monarchy?

No, I'm saying once again you're posting conspiracy rubbish on any thread you can find. Something we've asked to not to do many times, I've asked nicely so if you wish to persist I can act in another manner.

Are you saying that a discussion on revolution should not in some way involve the blurred lines between politics and the monarchy?

Seriously?

The monarchy are powerless ceremonial figureheads. Prince Charles writing the odd letter to be subsequently ignored by government ministers is hardly evidence of some takeover of the state, is it?

Illegal foreign wars, theft and corruption by elected representatives, steady erosion of freedoms and dismantling of the welfare state:

Nothing.

Telly broken:

Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
The dead rising from the grave!
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Seriously?

The monarchy are powerless ceremonial figureheads. Prince Charles writing the odd letter to be subsequently ignored by government ministers is hardly evidence of some takeover of the state, is it?

Sorry, not allowed to reply...

No, I'm saying once again you're posting conspiracy rubbish on any thread you can find. Something we've asked to not to do many times, I've asked nicely so if you wish to persist I can act in another manner.

Perhaps if they forced us all to revert to 26" wheels there'd be a revolution

[CrapJoke]Then again, when you put wheels in the equation, all mountain bikers are revolutionaries[/CrapJoke]

It's a conspiracy

Banhammer!!

Once again the righties are comparing this country with the "rest of the world", and you should be grateful for living here, people hanging on the bottom of trains to get here etc, etc.

This country is a good place to live but:

theft and corruption by elected representatives, steady erosion of freedoms and dismantling of the welfare state

We are slowly losing it. It seems that some people think the only ingredient required for utopia is money.

There'll never be a revolution, everyone just likes to use facebook to talk about it but no one will ever do anything, all the energy gets expended doing that instead in a series of hollow threats and venting hot air. A friend of mine has just shared on facebook a photo from a rooftop of a revolution supposedly happening in Spain that apparently the BBC are refusing to show coverage of, however when you click through to the facebook link it is a photo from a demonstration in 2012, so hardly surprising no one is covering it in the news today!

Everyone is happy with their massive flatscreen tellies, unlimited internet, smartphones, tablets and cars acting as pacifiers.

The bottom line is that even if you're at the very bottom of society, like the people you see on the plethora of poverty porn programmes of late, things really aren't that bad. Yeah... its not much fun, but its not like you're starving, or living on the street.

Despite IDS's best efforts we're unlikely to end up with a sizeable mass of the population living in abject poverty. And thats what generally fuels revolutions

To be fair though, my wifes parents are fairly wealthy but some of their family are living on about a dollar a day out in the sticks in the Phils. Half the time the kids have no shoes - but they lead a better standard of life, eat better food, have more family around them and generally seem happier. Sure they don't have iphones - but access to the latest gadgetry is a poor indicator of quality of life.

Comparing poverty between countries is not so cut and dry, except in extreme cases such as starvation conditions.

I have plenty of friends from Malaysia, Philippines, Indonesia, China and South America who would rather be poor in their respective countries than poor here.

The problem is, that by incrementally increasing the cost of living over several years, whilst at the same time transferring money from the many to the few, the majority have to work harder without realizing it.

This is more of a widespread issue than just the UK.

Revolution doesn't have to be violent, but there is so much room for positive change. They don't just give it out for free though...

OP. No chance of a revolution 'today', as others have said life is way too good to even consider such an option... but things can change very quickly when war or lack of food effects the majority of a nation. Slow significant change is all you can hope/work for at present... NOTE: that does involve actually standing up for what you believe in, not just whining on forums or signing e-petitions while living like a plastic tory

I think big Dave 'once' mentioned the BIG SOCIETY (try to forget which party he is from), have a little think about that and post some stories of your part within it (instead of silly Tory bashing.) you never know you might encourage a few others to [s]grow up[/s] take part in some significant change.

BIG SOCIETY eh?

Didn't that turn out to be some kind of [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-camerons-big-society-in-tatters-as-charity-watchdog-launches-investigation-into-claims-of-government-funding-misuse-9629848.html ]misuse of funds[/url]?

Edit, bit more [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/feb/07/big-society-is-not-working ]here[/url]:

The redoubtable Dame Elisabeth Hoodless of Community Service Volunteers has delivered a torpedo right into the big society's hull. After 36 years as the great CSV champion, she said the cuts were "destroying" volunteering. Others raised their voices too: Volunteering England, the umbrella organisation for the 300 local centres, joined in, along with Citizens Advice, as great chunks of their capacity fell away. The very organisations that have for decades made Britain one of the better volunteering countries are being cut off at the knees.

The Big Society?

Assuming that 'revolution' means that we see a large governmental change mid-term instead of waiting for the next election, then I'm hopeful that it will occur within the current term.

IMO the tories won the election due to one central lie. That of economic success brought about by the tory element of the coalition government. Even throughout this thread we see the same lie being repeated. That we have elected the tories because we value economic success above socialist ideals.

Slowly, people seem to be waking up to this lie.

The most unbelievable part of the election was that Labour, and all other opposition failed to effectively communicate this. Everyone played perfectly into the tories' hands by talking about saving the NHS, slowing immigration, saving social security, etc.

So the voters decided that it was economy vs idealism (why wouldn't they - we were told it by both sides!) and chose to save their wallets out of fear.
But that wasn't the choice. At all. Wallets will not be saved and our economy is not in safe hands. We are going to move closer and closer to where we were immediately before the collapse by handing back more control to banks.

When people start to see that (and no alternative in the form of the next government seems to exist), it may lead to revolution.

So the big society bathers wtf have you done? The point id not to be a state funded thing but something people do.

The most unbelievable part of the election was that Labour, and all other opposition failed to effectively communicate this.

The labour party failed to communicate pretty much everything. That was the problem. You can't blame the electorate for that. Labours problem, summed upprety accurately by Johnathon Freedland here.... [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/17/labour-story-leader-communication ]Labour must learn to speak human, whatever its policies [/url]

our economy is not in safe hands

It's in the safest possible hands - do you think we want Gordy back to squander the little that's left? It was he who brilliantly sold 50% of Britain's gold reserves when the world price of gold was at an all-time low.

Anybody who has an ounce of understanding of how UK Plc fits in with the rest of the world will know that the big foreign money goes where foreigners think it's going to be safe. That means a nice stable secure country with good regulation, no threat of your lolly being stolen and a few of your ex-Etonian chums running the show, not some wacky envy-inspired left wing shambles such as we have just avoided.

Why do you think London is on a different astral plane to the rest of the UK? Outside money being lodged for safe-keeping is the reason. This may seem unfair to you and much of that foreign money is probably stolen but I'd rather London had it than New York, Moscow, Paris, Madrid, Milan or Athens because it doesn't half help the economy along.

NOTE: that does involve actually standing up for what you believe in, not just whining on forums or signing e-petitions while living like a plastic tory

Binners.. you will never understand it, A Big society (no party politics here thanks) is not for forum dwellers; way too much effort...
Have you been to Greggs yet?

So the big society bathers wtf have you done?

Is it bedtime in Australia yet Mike? How's the beer down there?

I work voluntarily in a couple of charity shops...

Pay ain't great but the banter is good.

on top of that, I've built loads of local trails, encourage folk to ride them and smile as much as possible

The UK economy is perfectly safe and with our cuts to corporation tax and probable erosion of workers' rights, we'll likely do well out of it from big business investment. The issue is that the price to pay for that will be the poor (and not so poor) getting shafted.

And with a hopelessly ineffective opposition, very little of real effect will done to stop it happening, least of all to correct misapprehensions of the public.

No jhj I have to feed the lizards and top up the water for the overlords. This evening I'm flying to Jakarta, a place where the wealth gap is demonstrated properly with massive opulence and abject poverty mixed in with a world class level of corruption that would put any mp's expenses claim to shame. That and they still shoot people for criminal convictions. Where would I rather be.

I work voluntarily in a couple of charity shops...

Pay ain't great but the banter is good.

on top of that, I've built loads of local trails, encourage folk to ride them and smile as much as possible

Aren't you the chap who spends hours trawling websites for info on conspiracies and the class divides? Perhaps some of your critical thinking could be applied to your role in significant change.. a couple of hours in charity shops and some trail work 😆 while sitting in your bedroom uncovering a plan that no one else knows of! Seriously, get out there and put your money where your mouth is.

Seriously, get out there and put your money where your mouth is.

Blimey, maybe I should give that a try!!

😆

Can you explain your role in all of this BIG society lark?

not some wacky envy-inspired left wing shambles such as we have just avoided.

You mean that party that agrees with the IMF that wealth disparity hurts growth?

That means a nice stable secure country with good regulation, no threat of your lolly being stolen and a few of your ex-Etonian chums running the show

So creating stability doesn't involve tackling the burgeoning UK personal debt, which is a side effect of the cost of living within the UK? Would you say UK personal debt is sustainable?

I think you have a poor understanding of good macroeconomic practice, but hey. We are trying to improve competitiveness by encouraging only small to moderate increases in pay whilst doing nothing to reduce the cost of living which is a driving factor of pay - instead we are up to our eyeballs in debt.

The UK economy is as poorly aligned as it was before the 2008 crash, pissing about with public spending will do nothing to counter the eventual earthquake and realignment that is going to take place.

globalti - Member
because it doesn't half help the economy along

It's a conspiracy

That's what they want you to think.

I work voluntarily in a couple of charity shops...

Hopefully not ones with royal patronages JHJ?

Like their good friend Jimmy Savile, the Royals love getting their mugs in chariddy pics, so there is probably a few funny handshakes here and there, but the BIG society is all about the grass roots...

perhaps theocb is on lunchbreak or something?

Screw lunch I'm in the middle of my gin break, only another 14hrs to go till I'm off again.

Read up on BF Skinner and Operant Conditioning

He outlines a new way of controlling and ordering people. It is no longer possible, he says, to tell people what to do. In an age of individualism and mass democracy people won’t accept that any longer. Instead you reward them for behaving in the ways you want them to.

You make them happy, and they feel that they are in control - because by doing something they get the reward.

Skinner had started doing this with pigeons - and the film shows how he trained them to peck at a particular button because if they did they got a pellet of food, whereas if they pecked another button they got nothing. For Skinner though, that was just the start - and the film shows how his ideas were also being applied to human beings.

Here is that section - along with Skinner explaining his ideas. The film records an experiment in a mental hospital in San Bernadino - California. The patients are given rewards in the form of plastic fake money if they do what the doctors consider the right social behaviour. They can then use that money at meal-times to buy their way onto a “nice” table - with tablecloth and flowers.

Those without the rewards have to eat - as one of the nurses puts it, “in less elegant conditions”.

What emerges in the hospital is a new, ordered hierarchy created by a system of reward - but one where the patients don’t feel controlled - instead they feel “empowered” because it was through their actions that they received the reward. Skinner makes clear in the film that he sees this as a model for how to run a future kind of society.

From [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/5a7b18b5-0ec3-3d3e-a307-54820a7c6a59 ]here[/url]

Basically we are conditioned to respond to a system of rewards. We feel empowered if our actions are rewarded. So long as the rewards are doled out the overwhelming majority will never feel the need for "revolution" in any form

Easy access to credit is probably the main "reward" modern society bestows on individuals. If you play the game and have good credit "score" then you can go to a bank and borrow a huge sum of money to purchase a nice house. You can go to a car dealer and lease a shiny German car, you can get a monthly contract for lots of technology that "improves" your life that you might otherwise not be able to afford

This is a pretty massive over simplification of the incentives and rewards in modern society but it explains why we aren't likely to see a revolution any time soon

When I was a batchelor I lived in a formerly rough but gentrified area of terraces in a mill town where there were still a few of the original residents who hadn't been pushed out. One three-bedroom house held a family of 12, the obese Dad was in his forties and according to local folklore had never worked in his life, claiming his back was too bad. Curiously this couple managed to bring up 10 kids without ever doing a day's work and still managed a 2 week holiday in the Med every summer, leaving the kids at home in the care of the eldest duaghter and the neighbours. I once had a "discussion" with one of the kids when she asked me why I was getting dressed up and going to work every morning. "Because I have to work, to earn money" sez I. "No you don't!" she replied.

That's why we won't ever see a revolution.

Revolution?

Better hurry up, theres a new series of X-factor on soon : http://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/x-factor-2015-auditions-new-london-dates-added-10398756.html

Don't want to miss it!

If the UK is as bad as this post says it is, why don't people emigrate?

Lol I did and it had nothing to do with the UK. As for revolution the closest thing to push me over the edge is the kid in the airport lounge playing a ****ing iPad at full volume while the parents don't give a shit.

globalti - Member
When I was a batchelor I lived in

LOL... Did you know that David Cameron once met a "40 year old black man"

It's hardly the foundation of a solid view of the world, is it?

Maybe not in your book but 30 years of business travel around Africa and the Middle East has given me a pretty clear perspective on why Britain is definitely one of the best places to live in the world and how its inhabitants take their very comfortable, secure lives so much for granted.

I'm not sure what you're hoping I'm going to say JHJ. I try to live by my principles as I expect you too but you and I aren't playing top trumps.. you constantly talk openly about your problem with the way the world is run and you choose to do very little about that. You have the time to do something that you believe in but choose to post on singletrack instead. That's fine, I have read your views before, I just haven't read what you are going to do about them {not an invite on this thread}. You offered info and I was a little disappointed that you weren't backing up your big talk, sorry if my expectations were too high.

Wanmankylung has made quite a few posts about the terrible state of great Britain and I'm a little concerned he is missing the important point; The 'Big Society' is the change he is looking for... unfortunately that means 'doing' something about the issues that concern him, perhaps I missed those threads.

Globalti, I've done plenty of travelling as well - every time I rebuke your posts you make no effort to reply and continue posting personal anecdotes.

That's why we won't ever see a revolution.

To be serious, that's another lie that the conservatives managed to push through - that a caring government = scroungers.

how its inhabitants take their very comfortable, secure lives so much for granted.

That makes me even more motivated to make sure that the government is representing the views of the majority and that it doesn't get away with lies being repeated as truth.

In no way am I a conspiracy nut....

But... Anarchy is actually much closer than you think.

Civilisation only survives if it's feed.

Three square meals/diners missed and it all goes pear shaped.

Don't believe me ? Just ask Binners how anxious he get with one missed Greggs ..?

Britain is definitely one of the best places to live in the world and how its inhabitants take their very comfortable, secure lives so much for granted.

I don't disagree with that actually globalti (Funnily enough I've also done a lot of travelling). What I do worry though is that given inattention and complacency, our standards will be eroded to the point where unless you're well off, you're buggered and basic things like healthcare won't be the norm. See how things are in the US for a precursor to it. We should see how things are here as a positive even if there are a few on the margins who take the piss.

Basing views on "that family down the street who are work-shy scroungers" and therefore assuming that this is the norm across the country is part of that. As has been pointed out, people's assumptions on benefit state and what actually costs are wildly skewed and even if way more people were actually living up to that stereotype, it'd still be only a small part of the wider issue - eg aging population, those in work still needing benefits, etc.

it's a bit of a cliche but it still sums it up for me.

Tom_W1987 says I just trot out anecdotes. Okay:

The UK economy is as poorly aligned as it was before the 2008 crash, pissing about with public spending will do nothing to counter the eventual earthquake and realignment that is going to take place.

Yes, the UK economy isn't in great shape but it's in a hell of a lot better shape than most other countries in the world. France, for example, is still shivering on the edge of serious action and hasn't even dipped its toe in the water. Paris is in a filthy neglected condition as a consequence of cuts.

No, there are many aspects of UK life that still don't work, the legal system for example needs radical modernisation as well as the Police and the Civil Service and the Forces but [i]on the whole[/i] Britain works better than most others. Sadly, a lot of it has to do with how good you are at making it work; older people and the less articulate can suffer bad service from the NHS and it's often those who are able to get their own way who get the best out of it. And the best is really excellent. Same with the Law.

No, there won't be an eventual earthquake and realignment; the economy is too complex and there are too many checks and balances built in for a Greece-type crisis to occur in Britain. And you can go on squeezing an economy for a very long time before things begin to break because people just manage and make do. In most of Africa there is no effective government or economy yet life just somehow goes on.

I try to live by my principles

Well, you seem to know plenty about me, by contrast I'm afraid (perhaps my own fault) I don't know much about these principles of yours that you allude to...

I'm also slightly confused just what this is actually supposed to mean?

You offered info and I was a little disappointed that you weren't backing up your big talk

The Big Society idea is a bit more complex than just helping out doing charitable work in place of state funded services. If anyone's seriously interested in the idea they should read Robert Putnam's 'Bowling Alone'.

Yes, the UK economy isn't in great shape but it's in a hell of a lot better shape than most other countries in the world. France, for example, is still shivering on the edge of serious action and hasn't even dipped its toe in the water. Paris is in a filthy neglected condition as a consequence of cuts.

Better than everyone else isn't good enough if the competition is incompetent. Resting on your laurels is a sign of privileged apathy.

No, there won't be an eventual earthquake and realignment; the economy is too complex and there are too many checks and balances built in for a Greece-type crisis to occur in Britain.

I really disagree with this, personal debt is still ballooning, house prices and the cost of living are still increasing - with this comes a necessary increase in wages which will hamper competitiveness and the balance of trade - at the same time we have an ageing population and an electorate unable to cope with the steps needed to be undertaken to counteract this. Instead we are delaying these issues by spending using credit, whilst cutting public spending which seems entirely pointless in the context of the wider issues at hand. We do not have the right checks and balances built in, we have government that is only interested in short term economic success and the immediate wealth of their voters (in this case, the home owning old).

Using the sick/disabled and impoverished as speed bumps might provoke a sizeable Facebook profile pic campaign?

The 'quiet revolution' is underway. My mother's boss offed himself recently after his disability benefits were axed. Only the local press and immediate family really noticed.

globalti - Member
our economy is not in safe hands
It's in the safest possible hands - do you think we want Gordy back to squander the little that's left? It was he who brilliantly sold 50% of Britain's gold reserves when the world price of gold was at an all-time low.

Now. Why do you think he did that?

Now. Why do you think he did that?

Man in "can't predict the future" shocker. More at 4pm

The point is: For the purposes of the question, whether or not the UK is an unequal society with pockets of deprivation & poverty is irrelevant. What matters is whether the problems are sufficiently deep or extensive to ferment revolution. The answer is they aren't. This is why comparisons with other countries are valid. If revolts are yet to break out in places which are much worse than the UK then why should it happen here?

[img] [/img]

^ that was [i]exactly[/i] what I was about to say.

If revolts are yet to break out in places which are much worse than the UK then why should it happen here?

If you look at somewhere completely ****ed like Greece - a basket case economy thats contracted 25% in 3 years, forecast to contract by another 3% this year, massive unemployment, particularly among the young, people living in genuine poverty, endemic corruption...

And this shits been going on for years, and its only going to get worse - and they're not having a revolution. I don't see much chance of it taking place here.

I agree with binners.

*sigh*

Do you know why we are a society that is largely fair and free from corruption?

Is it the weather ?

I would take care with the idea that UK economy is ok.
Household debt to GDP ratio is higher than Greece and forecast to get much worse

[url= http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2015/02/uk-household-debt-still-amongst-the-highest-in-the-world/ ]UK Household Debt to GDP worse than Greece[/url]

[url= http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21637435-household-wealth-and-debt-forecast-swell-2015-balance-sheet-boom ]Forecast to get worse[/url]

Interest rates are not so much at low levels as emergency levels. If the underlying economy were in any way ok, why are interest rates still at the same level they were put at to stave off collapse in 2009? I suspect the amount of personal debt, esp mortgage debt has a lot to do with the fear of putting rates up.

Most concerningly, though is that we still seem addicted to consumerism and high house prices to feel good about ourselves. If a shock like 2008 hasn't convinced us to live within our means, what will? It doesn't bode well for UK public making the necessary behavioural shift to stave off another debt crisis...

tbh I think falling house prices are more likely to have people on the streets en masse than cuts in NHS, schools, benefits, another Middle East war or some kind of state surveillance scandal etc... it underpins a lot of people's feeling of wealth and status these days...

we are a society that is largely fair and free from corruption

Not doing [i]that[/i] well, really are we?

http://www.transparency.org/country/#GBR