What water softener

Cambridge here too. Salt should not enter the water supply with a softener fitted, all the salt does is regenerate the beads in the softener tank and then be flushed down the drain before the softener goes back on line. I fitted one when I did my bathroom in 2014 and have just replaced it. No corrosion at all and the bathroom still looks like new with no scale at all. Sounds like you had a poor or faulty softener. Monarch midi is a good unit, just top up with salt and forget about it.

Salt does get in to the supply , it’s recommended you don’t use it for drinking or food prep

Back to original question… ours is a Calmag.

Reason being

1. it’s what the plumber recommended my parents get installed

2. They have been helpful when my parents rang them about queries with theirs

3. They are a local ish company to where I used to live

4. They have a 5yr warranty

Ours is 5 yrs old now and no issues

Salt is more of an issue. Can buy cheap salt, but it leaves lots of dirt in the tank. Good quality salt has gone silly money since COVID

I understood the amount of sodium introduced in softened water is minuscule and only a problem if you have to soften extremely hard water or you are on a medically prescribed low sodium diet. We do have a hard water tap which we use for drinking but make tea and coffee with the softened water. I certainly can’t taste any salt. Might be worth a bit more of a google but that’s what seems to be coming up.

Our Kinetico is a few years old and no trouble. Just drop a couple of blocks in every so often.
The kitchen taps are bypassed, as is the outside tap.

M2 Minimax here, fitted more than 10 years ago. It just works and the blocks are easy to change.

Outside tap is still on the unsoftened water as is a Brita filtered water drinking water tap on the sink. We started with just a plain drinking water tap but I got fed up with descaling the kettle (also helps with the homebrew). The P3000 cartridge lasts ages.

Hmm are they really that bad (rusty taps and noticeably salty taste)? I've been meaning to get one fitted for a while (but it would have to go in the garage, which means I need a garden shed for the garage junk which means I need my garden sorting out - hence the procrastination :p ). I'd read you can taste it a bit on some models but didn't realise it was that bad (and hence also not recommended for the kitchen tap). Also, do people not have it feeding the outside tap as it's considered a waste (if you're just using the water for watering plants etc.) or some other reason? I figured it would help avoid any water spots when car washing (although maybe it actually makes that worse if it's got more than negligible amounts of salt in it).

It tastes a bit different but definitely not salty, if it does then something has gone very badly wrong.

Different because no lime deposits in it any more rather than anything else being added in.

I have been doing a lot of research into this, as currently planning an extension which will mean a new kitchen & I am fed-up of limescale on everything. We are near-ish to Cambridge; just north of Peterborough & the water is ridiculously hard. When you look at one of those online water hardness checkers it is basically as hard as it gets.

I initially read about the water from the softener being unsafe to drink due to the salt that is part of the softening procedure. But this seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how the systems work, as the salt is only used to flush the beads that do the softening. All of the FAQs on the manufacturer's websites I have seen, basically say that some people don't like the flavour of the softened water, but it's not because it now has salt in it.
The water should not be getting salty, but apparently it does taste different & some people don't like it.

A lot of people recommend an unfiltered water tap on the kitchen tap. This seems only solving half the problem to me, as one of the worst places we get limescale build-up is on the kitchen tap/draining board & in the kettle/coffee machine etc.

I am looking at whether I need to put a softener in for most of the house & also a water filter onto the kitchen tap for everything that serves it. Seems like a similar set-up to what @murray has.

Good information about the outside tap too. I suppose that doesn't need to be softened, so it would make sense for that to be tee'd off before the softener.

I have also seen 'whole house' filter systems that seem to do a similar job and are basically two massive filters that the water passes through. They look to be more expensive to replace than salt in the softener, but potentially a more straight forward solution. Not sure & still going round in circles trying to decide (as per every other decision I need to make).

@stumpy01

I’m in the same position. I actually have a refurbished Harveys softener ready to be installed but due to space constraints for installation and salt block storage I’m still mulling it over.

Having to install a potentially tidier filter system with less frequent consumables is quite appealing.

Our Kinetico came with a filter tap thingy, which is on the bypassed line to the cold kitchen tap.
So we have the bathroom, electric shower, washing machine, dishwasher and boiler on the softened feed.

The kitchen tap, water filter, outside tap and bog are on normal mains.

Our electric showers last longer than a year now and we get through less detergent.

Also interested, I'm fed up of descaling the thermostatic mixers on the showers.

Salt does get in to the supply , it’s recommended you don’t use it for drinking or food prep

They work by switching calcium and magnesium for sodium.

So the chemistry is CaCO3 +2Na(+) -> Na2CO3 + Ca(2+), then you flush the bed with salty water which gives 2NaCl + Ca(2+) -> CaCl2 + 2Na(+)

So it's sodium, but not "salty". And Na2CO3 is much more soluble so doesn't build up as a residue.

IIRC the reason for not drinking it is the same as why you shouldn't drink anything other than the water from your kitchen tap. Whilst water is in the pipes at ~4 bar it's got chloride ions keeping it sanitary, as soon as you drop that pressure to atmospheric (in either your loft header tank or in the softener) that evaporates and it's no longer sanitary. It's not automatically bad for you, but you can't guarantee it's clean.

We are currently having an extension built and looking more at the details of kitchen layout and everything going in there. So, I'm now at the point of where I need to choose a water softener & probably a filter for the kitchen tap that bypasses the softener.
Feels like a bit of an extravagance, but our water is really hard and I'm fed up with fighting limescale build-up constantly. For some kind of indication, we used to have the same coffee machine as my sister who lives on the edge of Bristol. We had to descale the machine every 3 weeks or so, whereas her machine ran for 18 months before the descale light first came on.

I'm thinking of having mains feed into the softener (obviously), a bypass going to the filter for the kitchen tap but only want this for drinking water, so probably have a 3-way tap. Another bypass going to the outside tap and everything else being through the softener.

No idea if there are good or bad water softeners out there; I suppose there must be, but I haven't really found a watersoftenertrackworld as of yet to get advice.

Brands I have seen:
Kinetico
Harveys (bombarding my FB feed)
BWT
Minimax
Calmag

There's a few comments above regarding a few of these brands, but does anyone else have any recommendations or opinions?
I literally have no idea what to go for, so any pointers would be appreciated.
Some models seem to just look like a neat plastic box, while others look like a piece of scientific lab equipment. Ideally, I want something reliable & effective, that is neat & discreet.

Also, not sure if this can just be installed by the plumber who does all the other bits for the new kitchen, or someone who knows the specifics of these things? Most manufacturers seem to offer an installation service.

Can’t answer all your points, but they can be installed by anyone who can do simple plumbing. They do need power supplies though

As to by pass taps. Ours has the by pass next to the unit under the kitchen sink so that we can by pass for all taps. I used to do this to was the car etc , but now don’t bother as washing the car is so much easier if it’s been through the softener .

The only time I now use the by pass is if jet washing all the outside. I then do finish off by switching the water softener on to flush out the jet washer . I think my last jet wash failed due to the limescale

we use a 3 way tap in the kitchen and this under the sink. The cartridge used to be about £12 every 3 months but post COVID they are now £25!

https://www.screwfix.com/p/bwt-high-capacity-water-filter-kit/16747

I've not had one installed but thinking about this sort of system (so it softens and filters) but there's some iffy reviews so I've not made up my mind yet... https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/collections/types-whole-of-house-types/products/whole_of_house_with_scale_reduction (I'd probably go for the larger version for the increased flow rate, although running costs seem pretty high)

Regarding the chloride in the water, my softener is permanently under mains pressure so assume always sanitary.

I also believe that a softener has to automatically regenerate every  6 days in the uk to comply with water regs regardless of use.

I do a fair amount of design on high end resi projects in London and we always design the system to have a hard water supply to the kitchen tap and externals and softened everywhere else. The health issue is not around the increase of salt but the reduction in magnesium and calcium that increases risk of cardiovascular diseases. The WHO even did a paper on it (Nutrients in Drinking Water).

I’ve not heard the thing about chloride ions and 4 bar pressure before. Most domestic systems max working pressure is 3 bar. The legal minimum the water companies can supply to a property is 0.7 bar so I’d be really surprised if anyone is getting 4 bar at their property.

We’ve had Monarch Ultimate Electric water softeners installed on our projects or a Goodwater Pegasus.

Edited for spelling.

I had a BWT put in a couple of years ago - yes hard water to main kitchen tap and to external taps.

Makes a major difference to keeping stuff clean, we used to have toilets scaling up and looking manky and shower screens a nightmare to keep clean.  No more cleaning much easier - well no more scrubbing / chemicals

I'm pretty competent at plumbing, but in the end got a plumber in as I was confusing myself with how to fit.

Top tip - make sure you measure the space you intend to put it and take into account the extra space needed for the piping and shut off valves.  Ours only just fitted in the under sink cupboard when all the gubbins was installed

On the "you shouldn't drink softened water" issue, our water comes from a borehole and is filtered, UV'd and softened before it even gets into the house, we've got what is effectively a small waterworks in an outhouse.

And we get 5 Bar, as it needs to be that much to get it uphill to the next door property that we share the supply with.

Any estimates of how much these cost to run per month/annum?  Another one with poor water unfortunately.

We have a BWT one and it's fine.  I just buy a 5l jug of the resin cleaner rather than their little 250ml bottle as much cheaper.  Only needed it serviced once in 10 years although they would prefer it done every year.  Very happy with the result but remember to get them to show you how to test the water and tweak it from time to time. Have very hard water but never bothered with a separate feed to the kitchen.  If I had very young children I might

cinnamon_girl
Any estimates of how much these cost to run per month/annum?  Another one with poor water unfortunately.

Not all of them need an electricity supply to function. From what I was looking at last night, there are even some advantages to going for a non-electric version.

In terms of salt usage, it varies a lot based on the specific softener device (how efficiently it uses the salt, I guess) and how hard your water is. I have seen anywhere from £100-350/year mentioned in salt consumption.

There's an article here that provides a lot of information, but not necessarily a straight answer!

https://www.hydroworks.co.uk/162/How-much-salt-will-my-softener-use?srsltid=AfmBOopj5L8lP4dtTFo16f-HLBPc7HA78bPa3jzQsmvcz5BKJpZIXkgq

Thanks for that @stumpy01, shall have a read.  Not needing electric sounds great!

We recently installed a water softener & to simplify plumbing have the entire house (apart from outside tap) softened on the incoming main.

We installed a Quooker tap + a reverse osmosis water purifier under the kitchen sink - we now have 4 functions on the kitchen tap (softened hot & cold + purified/softened boiling & cold drinking) on the tap.

No scum on a cup of tea & great tasting drinking water!

In terms of salt usage, it varies a lot based on the specific softener device (how efficiently it uses the salt, I guess) and how hard your water is. I have seen anywhere from £100-350/year mentioned in salt consumption.

We spend about £150 a year, split between the two properties our softener serves, and there's two adults in each property.

Monarch do a couple of models that can run on either a 9V battery or mains, and I have had good experience with using their softeners. Salt usage for a house with on average 3 person occupancy is about a 25kg bag every other month. Bags used to be about £8, now around £15. If you’re a light sleeper and the bedroom is over the drain stack, make sure the regen isn’t set for 3 a.m. Twice woke to panicked thoughts of flooding before I changed it.

with softened water you should use less cleaning products / shampoo / soap.  Probably not going to offset the cost of salt but it will be a decent %

also electricity cost and increase water usage when it recharges itself.

personally for the improvement in the water its worth it.  and you get nice feeling hair 🙂

I do a fair amount of design on high end resi projects in London and we always design the system to have a hard water supply to the kitchen tap and externals and softened everywhere else. The health issue is not around the increase of salt but the reduction in magnesium and calcium that increases risk of cardiovascular diseases.

Interesting comment on the health issue. Are your clients bothered about PFAS at all? Genuine question by the way, as I was reading about PFAS earlier and wondered about filters for removing it from the tap water. Then I spotted this thread.

We’ve not had a client query it yet to be honest. I wouldn’t be surprised if that becomes a concern in the near future though.

We have had one of those non salt ones installed as I wasn't keen on the salt ones and a bypass tap and as we were replacing the bathroom we didn't want all the new bits covered in scale. Check the sizing as the standard one is pretty big, it has taken up 1//2 a 60cm cupboard next to the sink. You can get the scale and filter media from other places and just replace that when needed rather than the whole cartridge. We have noticed a difference since it was put in, you get a bit of light powder on the big shower screen but it wipes off with a cloth and regular shower spray not limescale remover. Kettle is much better as well.

Still going round in circles with this :o)

Yesterday, I realised there's a supplier/distributor of water softeners on the business park I work on so I wandered over to have  a chat in my lunch break.
They gave me a call later in the day & have recommended a Kinetico Premier Compact unit, which is unpowered & uses a twin chamber system.
The supply only cost is almost £1500 which is more than I was expecting.
We need to have an unsoftened drinking water tap due to the hardness of our water & the amount of sodium that will be present in the water after softening. So, we are probably also gonna go with a 3-way tap with cartridge filter feeding the drinking water side of things which is additional cost.

I have been looking around and it looks  like I could get a Monarch/Tapworks/BWT softener for something like £700.
I am really not sure what the more expensive Kinetico gives over the cheaper softeners available. Maybe they use drastically less salt & water to regen, but I don't think that is the case as they don't particularly make a song & dance about it. Also, the Kinetico requires block salt rather than tablet salt, which from what I can see is more expensive to buy. It's supposed to be more convenient, but I am struggling to understand the inconvenience of tablet salt, to be honest.

I e-mailed the people about the Kinetico softener to ask what advantages it gives for ~twice the price. Will be interesting to see what they come back with. I am not averse to spending money for a superior product, but at the moment I am not sure it provides any real-world benefits for the extra cost.

£1,500 !

You can buy the Calmag for just over £400 and it’s made in Keighley

Drinking water kit £40 from screwfix

This is our £50 tap from Amazon - very good quality better than taps we have had cost £300

https://amzn.eu/d/bNyumOX

We need to have an unsoftened drinking water tap due to the hardness of our water & the amount of sodium that will be present in the water after softening.

There isn't any sodium in the water after softening (well, there is, but it's a tiny tiny amount)

To reiterate, everything in our house uses softened water, we drink it, cook with it bathe in it, everything, as did the people before us, and the people before them. As do next door, as we supply their water. And as do the other next door, as they have their own borehole and water gubbins.

Very pleased with my Monarch midi for around £500, it comes with a separate bypass block that you plumb in to save a lot of pipework and valves. Use about £60 of salt tabs a year for 2 of us in the house. You may need high flow hoses depending on your boiler setup which are bulky and not very flexible which can make installation a bit tricky in a small space. This is our 2nd one and replaced a 10 year old one which sprung a slight leak on the resin stack. It was a like for like replacement but frustratingly was about 20mm deeper than the original which meant the back of the cupboard it was in had to be routed out to clear the flexible feed pipes. Monarch customer service is excellent as well if you have any queries.

IHN

There isn’t any sodium in the water after softening (well, there is, but it’s a tiny tiny amount)

To reiterate, everything in our house uses softened water

How hard is your water? The guy I spoke to yesterday said if your water hardness is above 400, which ours is, it is mandatory to have an unsoftened tap.

Do you need an unsoftened tap?

Read that ^ 2nd paragraph. And the last sentence:

If the water hardness in your home exceeds 400 mg/litre of calcium carbonate, your Water softener will push the sodium level in your water over the threshold. This will make having a separate drinking tap with unsoftened water mandatory.

Although I am not sure who it is that says it is mandatory?

@reluctantwrinkly, the Monarch ones do look like good options.

I am hoping the guy gets back to me with an explanation of why I should spend £1500 compared to say, £700; even if it's just to satisfy my curiosity or prove that actually that isn't necessary. We'll see what he says.

FunkyDuncFree Member
£1,500 !

You can buy the Calmag for just over £400 and it’s made in Keighley

Yeah, I was a little shocked too!

How hard is your water? The guy I spoke to yesterday said if your water hardness is above 400, which ours is, it is mandatory to have an unsoftened tap.

Ah, fair enough, our softener is set to 200 so I guess that's what the water is. Ours isn't there just for calcium though, there's a lot of other 'ion stuff' in the wate that it deals with too.

The supply only cost is almost £1500 which is more than I was expecting

Yes, water softener sales does remind me of double glazing sales etc.

Also check the type of salt (blocks or tablet), its availability and cost before making a choice too.

I fitted one when we built the house 9 years ago.  I fed unsoftened water to the outside taps (a waste of money to soften), the cold kitchen tap and a tap in the ensuite after reading the 'you shouldnt soften your drinking water'.  Have since concluded that's nonsense - soften everything (see extract from manual below).  If you're really worried about taste have a separate tap in the kitchen (or a 3 way).  I've also fed unsoftened to our fridge which has a Brita Purity Quell filter.

The sales and marketing off them is highly dubious. Ours came from East Midlands Water Co.  and it's one of their Blue range/10L and I think we bought it at ideal home or some other show. I cannot work out the relative benefits of their models or why some are so expensive.  Ours looks like the £1400 model but we paid nothing like that for it (and I can't work out from their site how it's better than the £500 they sell).  They claim the powered ones use much less salt than the unpowered, but then they sell those as well. You definitely want one that regenerates on a meter rather than a timer.

I'd just buy from Screwfix if buying again.  This £500 model seems like all anyone would need

https://www.screwfix.com/p/bwt-water-softener-14ltr/62242

Running costs are going to depend on how much water you use.  But for 2 of us I dont think I'm going through more than one 25kg bag of salt per year - <£25 at the moment from Screwfix

6. Drinking water
Your water softener installation must include at least one drinking water tap that is not
fed by the water softener.
It is recommended that individuals on a low sodium diet should follow the Department of
Health's advice that water from a domestic water softener should not be used for
drinking or cooking. Softened water contains a small amount of sodium. It has been
calculated that 1 pint of softened water contains a similar amount of sodium as two slices
of white bread or ¼ pint of milk.
Water that is used for mixing powdered milk for babies must only be taken from an un-
softened mains tap as some powdered milks and softened water both contain sodium for
which young babies have a limited tolerance.

Questions for anyone else who's got one -

- how long does the resin last? what's the life of a machine? What happens when it's worn out? (I'm guessing you just no longer get softened water)

- someone mentioned servicing? I've never done anything to ours except top it up with salt.  I can't see much living in an intensely salty tank and the resin then gets rinsed with highly salty water every few weeks.