[Closed] What tipped you to become vegetarian?

In 1989 we thought we'd try being vegetarian for a month, just out of curiosity. At the end of the month we simply couldn't see a good reason to do back to eating dead animals. So we didn't.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I watched a BBC programme on Mad Cow Disease a year or two ago. I was a bit young at the time of the scandal but I found that programme quite shocking and it made me reassess my diet quantity/quality significantly.

A combination of looking at the animals I was eating and feeling awful about doing so, learning more about how bad meat consumption is for the environment and realising how bad meats and processed meats are for my health.

Been veggie for 3 and a bit years, don’t miss meat at all, in fact the smell and sight of meat cooking now genuinely makes me feel sick (I used to love the smell of roast beef or steak cooking)

I need to make the step and turn vegan, my sugar/cake/chocolate addiction is making it hard

My girls wanted to do it. Wife makes great veggie food. Dont miss meat that much.

(And anyone who says ‘what about bacon’ is a dick :0P )

2 stage process for me. As a poor student I came to the realisation that the very cheap meat I was buying could only be this cheap if corners were being cut with animal welfare/quality of life and/or the environmental aspects of its production. With no more money to buy my way out of the feeling I became pescatarian (who only ate a very small amount of fish). 25 years later sick of feeling a hypocrite by ignoring issues in dairy and commercial fishing whilst refusing meat I finished the job and became vegan.

A friend and work colleague did it best - took on some piglets and raised them to fully grown. Was involved in the slaughter and butchering and finally eating. Decided that was enough for him and is now vegan. I respect his 'can I look into the whites of my dinner's eyes' approach regardless of his decision at the end of it.

I was living on my own, got back one day and opened the fridge, the sole contents of which were two sausages. Took them out, cooked and ate them.

The house had a cold slab so butter, marg, cheese were on that. Don't like milk so didn't have that to deal with. There was thus no real reason to keep the fridge running so I turned it off and didn't buy any more meat.

I'm not against eating dead animals, I grew up on a farm for a start, I just don't wish to.

I would like to have as close to a neutral impact on the planet throughout my life time as possible. Positive impact would be even better.

Eating meat would make that a lot harder.

Killing animals....I worked briefly in a abbittor in the late 1980s, been veggie since.

(And anyone who says ‘what about bacon’ is a dick :0P )

Well, clearly, because bacon is entirely inferior to sausages 😉

I was sat at the dinner table looking at my 4yo son while eating roast lamb at the weekend and the thought popped into my head that I was basically eating the equivalent of my boy sat in front of me.

You're not though, are you, that's just anthropomorphism. And lamb is a pretty hard meat to farm in a cruel/mass produced way in the way chicken, pork and, increasingly, beef is, it's all basically free range.

This is not to knock vegetarianism though, there needs to be much less meat eaten, mainly because of:

how bad meat consumption is for the environment

We try and stick to 'happy' meat (organic, free range) and not a lot of it.

As a student into the whole Anarcho Punk scene - Crass/Conflict/Subhumans, Meat is Murder etc. (still am musically!) so went veggie - not had or missed meat or fish for nearly 40 years.
Also Dad worked for a pig food manufacturer so sick to death of eating pork and bacon.

Sounds stupid, but I was driving along listening to the radio and a programme about rat poison came on. The descriptions of how the various poisons work didn't sound like a great way for the rats to go out and I felt pretty sorry for them. Next thing, I'm looking into fields of lambs hopping around and I decide I don't really want any animals to die for my benefit if I can help it. So I stopped eating meat.

I guess I'd considered it prior to that, so maybe the rats and lambs just tipped the balance. Lots of reading then gave me a load of environmental and animal-related reasons to be veggie so I stayed with it. Not missed meat at all.

'Logically', all my reasons for being veggie should lead me to become vegan. I've made a few attempts to go that way but haven't done so yet.

My daughter is veggie and I was eating veggie meals a lot of the time when cooking for her. I ate meat less and less then stopped completely over 3 years ago. I was never really into bacon, a vastly overrated food in my opinion. It wasn't for ethical or health reasons, it just happened and I have no desire to go back to eating meat.

I don't like meat, so I stopped eating it.

A friend and work colleague did it best – took on some piglets and raised them to fully grown. Was involved in the slaughter and butchering and finally eating. Decided that was enough for him and is now vegan. I respect his ‘can I look into the whites of my dinner’s eyes’ approach regardless of his decision at the end of it.

I don't think I couldn't raise animals to eat them, I'd definitely get too attached and sympathetic to them 🙂

You’re not though, are you, that’s just anthropomorphism.

Probably, to some extent, but isn't there some attachment between mother sheep and lamb? Also remember some years ago visiting a farm and there was this little lamb in the corner of the barn, a couple of holes in the wall letting sunbeams through, it literally looked angelic!

Maybe in part seeing my boy's innocence, comparing it with the innocence of a small animal, barely having had a chance at life in this world before ending up on my plate.

The matrix/factory farming/billions of lives only existing as a product to be eaten... that's been slowly nudging me also.

For me I think I've always just found it revolting as a concept, I was never a big meat eater even as a kid. Nothing to do with "oh the poor fluffy bunny wabbits," I just saw it as dead flesh rather than food and thought it was disgusting. Even when eating stuff like oxtail soup or chicken soup I'd sieve out all the solids first.

The epiphany for me came when I realised that I simply didn't have to do it. We were eating meat because that's what society dictated. And we're fortunate enough to have other options - and many many more today than 30 years ago - so it's just not necessary. I don't want to eat this, I don't have to eat this, so why am I?

It's wholly cultural. If it were the other way around and being vegetarian was the default, then you went out one day, sliced up a cow and chucked lumps of it under the grill, they'd lock you up as a psychopath. The French eat horse, we'd be appalled to be served that over here (as Tesco discovered not so long ago). Or pop over to somewhere like Vietnam and you can tuck into a nice portion of dog or rat. Do we reckon ratburger, fries and a large cola will be a big seller in McD's in the UK anytime soon? Why not? What's the difference?

It's nothing more than habit. And as I've said time and again, "we've always done it this way" is the worst reason to do anything. Stop and think for a moment about what you're eating. Why do you eat lamb but not horse? Why do you eat chicken but not budgerigar? If your conclusion is "I'm happy with this" then cool, you're making a conscious decision and that's awesome so crack on. But don't do it blindly because you always have, that's just dumb.

You’re not though, are you, that’s just anthropomorphism.

What about your family dog / cat? Would you tuck into Fluffy after being the household pet for 15 years?

That's not anthropomorphism, they're still just an animal. So, why not? "Hey little Hermione, how was the pie? Tasty? Well... you'll never guess but..."

Predominantly for environmental reasons, but also animal welfare.

My life is much better without meat in it.

I was 15 (1983) and realised I don't need to kill animals to eat them to be able to live so I stopped doing so. Haven't eaten meat since then almost 40 years ago.
Any environmental stuff was a side effect and back in the 80's wasn't really part of it. I thought by now that the majority of people would be vegetarian based on the fact eating meat was not necessary (again I was only 15!) but only a small % of people are vegetarian even today and I don't think the numbers have even gone up much.

Met and married a vegetarian!

Since we lived together I didn't bother buying or cooking meat or fish, I'd just eat it at restaurants or if invited somewhere. Learned lots of good veg home cooking along the way. When we had kids and they were old enough to ask questions it was just easier to never order meat if we were out together, and since I've been WFH for years eating out is an occasional thing anyway. Where we live has some excellent veggie restaurants so for meals out with my wife we're usually trying and sharing veggie stuff.

I'm not a "never eating meat again" person though, if I'm out with mates at an excellent meat restaurant I'm probably having that rather than the token disappointing veggie option.

Im not a Vegi, but my OH is, so by default i eat meat only occasionally. When we go out, or on the odd occasion.
I dont miss it, and much as i enjoy the occasional steak, not sure its worth it.
Vegi bolognaise is missing "something" though.

In a similar tone, my 4 yr old cant eat milk or milk products. OH got us all vegan easter eggs:

https://www.chococo.co.uk/
I'm not going to look how much they cost, but they are incredible, and highly reccomended.

I think Vegi/Vegan options are coming along in development much like electric cars. Before you know it they will be the norm.

I don’t like meat, so I stopped eating it.

+1

As has been said above, we don't need to kill and eat animals. Meat eating is almost like a self justifying cult, and the industry is sickening.
Augmenting a largely vegetarian diet with a bit of meat or fish, hunted or cared for on a small scale while providing some dairy products seems to me to be acceptable, but big business has run away with the dairy/meat/fishing industry. If I didn't live with a vegan I'd probably eat a wee bit of sustainably caught fish, but otherwise it's not for me.

I knew all the environmental and ethical arguments, I grew up on and arround farms so dinner frequently had a name and I had no particular issue catching and killing food.

But got gradually more and more uneasy about it. But was sticking with the line that protein was needed for athletic people and it was McDonald's meat that was the problem.

Then watched that gamechangers documentary. Now clearly the protagonists are probably necking (pea) protein shakes to supplement their diet, just like thier omnivorous compettiors. But the quote "if you want to be strong like an ox, eat like one" stuck with me as one of those refutable points, but with a kernel of truth in there.

the thought popped into my head that I was basically eating the equivalent of my boy sat in front of me

you're anthropomorphising

“if you want to be strong like an ox, eat like one”

if you had a digestive system and the genes of an ox I'd agree. We are not oxen.

if you had a digestive system and the genes of an ox I’d agree. We are not oxen.

Indeed, that's why I eat more than grass.

But all that protein you eat (and a lot more that was metabolised allong the way) was once in vegetables. Meat is just a really inefficient way of getting it.

I agree with the analogy of meat eating being like a cult. Just try and leave it and you realise why!

Listening to too much Propagandhi turned me vegan 🙂

Went to a health farm in Spain a few / three years ago, was just accompanying Mrs Kilo who was staying for ten days. I had no interest in healthy living or not eating meat and the principle source of pleasure was finding they served beer. I was a proper carnivore beforehand. I only stayed for four days and no meat was served there, for some reason I have not eaten meat since and don’t miss it.

Realising that most meat was just poor quality shitty tasting cruely produce protein. Which I could get in vegatable form and cover in the same sauces to flavour it!

In 1989 we thought we’d try being vegetarian for a month, just out of curiosity. At the end of the month we simply couldn’t see a good reason to do back to eating dead animals. So we didn’t.

basically the same but around 2018. girlfriend went veggie for a month and its just stuck. I still eat meat a couple of times a month but feel crazy sluggish after it. Makes me wonder how hard your body has to work to digest some pork with a roast.

I think Vegi/Vegan options are coming along in development much like electric cars

Interesting. As I’ve definitely gone from eating more healthy home-prepped/home-cooked plant-based foods to more recently opting for ‘developed’ plant-based options. ie ‘vegan’ ready meals, burgers, pizzas, sausages etc.

It’s ironically reminding me of how bad my diet was when I was eating more meat. Although I’m delighted to have more instant vegan ‘fast-food’ options and even some dairy free chocolate and crisps options...none of them are doing me much good!

What tipped me? Originally personal ethics first and health choices second, circa late 90s. But I’ve fallen on and off the wagon since and I’m not fully there yet even though I desire it. This last annus horriblest has scuttled me into a wagon-leaping emotional-eating human wreckage who did/does greedily still slam factory-farmed flesh, taters and bread in his weak fat face. Reading this thread has helped me re-focus.

Watched seaspiracy on Netflix at the weekend. I'm looking at going veggie through watching that. Really made me question what I eat. Gonna start with the Jamie Oliver book

As a student into the whole Anarcho Punk scene – Crass/Conflict/Subhumans, Meat is Murder etc. (still am musically!) so went veggie – not had or missed meat or fish for nearly 40 years.

This was me for ten years but I lapsed when kids were born. Still feel guilty playing Meat Means Murder. I need to pack it in again

But have you drunk beer since that trip @kilo?

Saw a few Youtube athletes and friends who dispel the myth that vegetarians are weak and inferior. They run/cycle/climb on a plant diet, so why couldn't I? Ate my last bacon butty and tried it for 2 weeks, that was about 4 years ago. I don't really miss it and pay much more attention to what I eat because it requires more planning. It's not a panacea, though. You can still be vegetarian and eat a bad diet.

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I was veggie as a kid when my mum was massively worried about mad cow disease, stuck through to me being a rebellious teenager and deciding to eat meat again in terms of boundary pushing.

Ate meat intermittently but really ramped it up when getting buff for my wedding six ish years back (not in the same shape now! 😅).

A few things pushed it over for me, the first being moving to Barking and 1 in 2 packets of supermarket chicken being rank/bogging as soon as you opened them. The final bit was getting food poisoning from bad chicken and then a month later my wife asking me to stop as I wasn’t a cruel person.

That was a couple of years back, still mostly veggie but do eat some fish. Feel better for it really, both in terms of health and from an animal welfare perspective.

What I think is really important is not worrying about the absolutes. I'm talking more about the envirionmental side but 20 people eating half the amount of meat than previous is better than one absolutely devout vegetarian.

You aren't a failure if you don't cut out meat completely. but if everyone reduced their consumption a small amount it would be a massive difference

But have you drunk beer since that trip @kilo?

Life without beer? Uurrgh!

I don’t think I couldn’t raise animals to eat them, I’d definitely get too attached and sympathetic to them 🙂

That was very much the point - to see if he felt the same about eating a plate of meat when he was first introduced to it as a sentient being rather than a clingfilm wrapped lump in a fridge in Tesco. I think he probably knew how he felt about it but wanted to do the deed to confirm it for himself.

(And anyone who says ‘what about bacon’ is a dick :0P )

Oops, didn’t see that earlier before posting “Bacon”. I should elaborate: greasy bacon in hotel room breakfast buffets put me off eating meat. Brought home how gross the stuff is. Cooked right, bacon and most other types of meat are heavenly, but it’s still basically the same shite going into your body.

Theres no getting away from the fact that life eats life, no matter where on the planet you look. Plants absorb the nutrients released by dead and decaying animal and vegetable matter. To try and avoid causing death is pointless, as it is inevitable somewhere along the line.
I gave up eating mammal meat as I couldnt see myself looking into a farmed cow ,sheep or pigs eyes, seeing the suffering and t he fear whilst being transported to an unnatural, planned death. My basic rule is I will not eat anything I would not kill myself, so I am sticking with poultry and fish. For the most part, the fish I eat are living t he life they were designed to, unaltered by selective breeding by man, right up until the point of capture. They were riding their luck in the sea right up until then, and there arent many vegetarian fish in the sea. I am OK with that.
Poultry though is different, not nearly as easy to justify to myself, so I eat mostly fish and eat chicken when fish is unobtainable.
Would I eat wild game though? That is living freely and naturally right up until it feels the impact of the projectile? If I could be convinced that no suffering was involved then yes, it would be a waste not to. Tried to emigrate to remote areas of Canada a few times in my life and was totally ready to shoot my own food if needed.
So, in a nutshell, im not OK with the suffering of farm animals , but tge eating of other dead , free born and free living animals is OK with me.

Not gone full vegi here, but have definitely cut down on the amount of meat and veg definitely impoverished the quality of meat we eat.
I can def see the appeal in going vegi but it just isn't for me for now. That being said the majority of meals we have in a week is meat free now. With the remainder being meat from regenerative farms mainly

Had been killing most of my own meat for years, Wanted to try it to improve my health and am still veggie over a year and a half later.

Not buying farmed or cheap meat made it easy for me I think.

As for bacon. Visit a pig farm and be instantly cured of that addiction.

I spoke to my partner so it looks like we'll be cutting down on our meat consumption. We tried a reduction in the past but then we... should say I, just drifted back to daily consumption.

But cheese, I love cheese, but dairy farming is not a nice thing is it.

Wafer thin Ham allowed?

My basic rule is I will not eat anything I would not kill myself

I kinda think this should be the default stance for folk. I've no problems with people eating meat, it's their own choice and it affects me not a jot so why should I care, but it seems weird to me that people would eat it but be wiggy about the wetwork. Is there a cognitive denial around where it comes from? Here's a big knife, there's Larry the Lamb and Piglet over there, crack on or don't "yes but bacon" me again, dickhead.

But cheese, I love cheese, but dairy farming is not a nice thing is it.

Depends on the farm / farming really.

Wafer thin Ham allowed?

Is that really the best you can do? It's sad.

I long for the day when butthurt meatheads come up with something original. The Royle Family did that particular gag like fifteen years ago and the best thing I can say about the show as a whole is that it wasn't quite as unfunny as Mrs Brown's Boys.

This is what you sound like to us:

... Big Nose.

30 years ago, girl I really fancied, at a party she was vocal about being a vegetarian so I told her I was one too despite not really knowing what one was.

We went out for a few weeks, I stopped eating meat, the not eating meat bit has lasted quite a bit longer than the relationship. Pissed my mum right off at the time, she had no idea what to feed me.

Couldn’t imagine eating meat.

My eldest decided to become vegetarian; after a few months of cooking a separate dinner for him I decided to switch as well. Environmental and welfare grounds. Too be honest once I was forced to find a few veggie alternatives for the mid week, quick meal staples, it was easy (I.e mushroom curry in place of chicken; halloumi bugers; bean wraps etc).

Cooking chicken and pork now actually turns my stomach. It's the smell; always concerns me I couldn't tell if the meat was bad

I've been vegetarian since some unknown disease was causing cows to die....only later was it understood and given a name. However I was already heading that way as I'd cut out processed meat because of quality issues so it was an easy step to make.
Animal welfare didn't play any part in that decision, it was all about me but since then I've come to realise what goes on in the industry and it has become important.

the Game Changers documentary did it for me. Then once i realised the health benefits, it took me down a rabbit hole of how animals are abused, raped and murdered so someone can have a sandwich. Then that led onto the environmental devastation it causes.

I am vegetarian and doing my best to go Vegan. I dont eat cheese or use milk anymore.

Thankfully my wife is the same (bar the cheese and milk... annoyingly), and she likes to cook, so we have a varied and tasty home cooked meals 95% of the time.

I think the beauty of the meat/dairy industry is the ignorance of it all. People dont associate the lump of meat on their plate with the animal it came from.

my biggest regret is not doing it sooner. We just need more people to get involved!

I had a summer job at Unilever knocking up a database of British meat-eating habits, had to read a lot of Meat and Livestock Comission publications during that, and this was peak Smiths era...
So luckily by the time I got together with the OH (who was vegetarian) I was veggie too. Ironically I have since gone vegan so it's not ME that occasionally fills the fridge with cheese and gets followed there by the dog !

Vegan cake is piss easy and chocolate is just an excuse to have only the nicest most expensive chocolate. The real heartbreak is when you're gagging for chips and the chippy tells you they fry in lard #sadface

I think the beauty of the meat/dairy industry is the ignorance of it all

A previous partner of mine worked for of the largest chicken processing companies in the UK (go figure) I went on a tour of the factory once. The highlight of the trip was the Co2 tank that they'd recently installed at some ridiculous cost that rendered the live chickens coming into the plant unconscious before slaughter. The economics of it was staggering, you see the birds tended to thrash about (I guess being hung on a track suspended upside down will do that) and this caused the line to be run slower to accommodate the electrocution being a bit haphazard sometimes. Once the birds had been pre-stunned, they could run the line just that bit faster to improve productivity....

It's a grim business.

It happened for us gradually over a few months I suppose, we'd go out for a curry and I'd plump for a veggie madras and veggie sides rather than meat and my OH pretty much followed suit. We didn't discuss it as such but it was good that it happened at the same time rather than one of us dragging the other down a path they weren't ready to go down yet.

My OH has a bit of a traumatic memory from when he was little, his family were away somewhere and a local pub had that coming Sunday's dinner (a live lamb) tied up outside the pub for everyone to see. It's understandably stuck with him, he comes at it from an animal welfare perspective whereas I think I'm maybe more from the environmental aspect of it, like some kind of green commie Venn diagram.

If you're into curries and chilis and stuff it's [i]dead[/i] easy to be veggie. That said, we still eat game meat if/when we can get it which isn't very often.

For me it was growing up in Newlyn (Cornwall) & having one too many bad meat experiences from local Cornish pasties!

At age 8 I decided I no longer wanted / needed meat, my parents were supportive & I've never looked back.

I've also always said that if I wanted meat or felt my body needing meat then I would eat it again but in 33 years since have never reached that point.

I became a vegetarian when I was about 10. Mostly because I was influenced by my older sister but also because once I thought about it, I just couldn't eat it any more. This was almost 40 years ago so I was considered most strange and there wasn't very much in the way of meat substitutes back then.

I lapsed when I was about 20. I lived in a shared house at uni and would sometimes pinch a fish finger from the freezer and cook it when I was drunk as a guilty pleasure.
Then, one night when I'd gone out for dinner and I'd ordered some sort of aubergine thing as the only option for veggies and other people were eating steak, I tried a bit of someone's steak and that was it for many years.
Just closed my eyes to the abject cruelty I guess and I like the taste of meat and fish.

I've been vegan now for the past five years or so. I live on my own so find it much easier as I just cook for myself. I live in a fairly rural area and I see the pain many sheep live in - in fields with no shelter, on hillsides so they never get to stand on even ground, little lambs shivering in the cold, sheep being chased by sheepdogs. If they do live on a flat piece of ground, it's often too wet for them and they develop foot issues and a limp and can barely run and then when they have to, others come to form a protective shield around them and I wonder why the hell we think we have the right to treat animals in this way.

I buy meat for my dog but try to buy the waste stuff. Chicken carcass from the butchers, tripe, venison (I think it's the head as it's got a high bone content) eggs from a house where they keep a few ex battery hens and give them a new life. I always pay double (only £2 instead of £1 as the profits go to help other battery hens). I'd eat those myself but I don't really like eggs.

I used to miss cheese but not really anymore. I sometimes get tempted by a cream cake from the bakers but I think of the poor cow being made to produce milk for its entire life to satisfy us. I've not had kids myself but I think many women would say that while breastfeeding maybe what they chose to do for their own child for a certain amount of time, I'm not sure they'd want to walk round with breasts full of milk for someone else for the rest of their lives.

I can really see animal products - at least in the way we produce it now - being excluded as a foodstuff in the future. I hope so at least.

Purely ethical for me (we're now vegan) as I find the slaughter of animals for food pretty grim and causes huge amounts of terror and suffering (although we feed our cats cat food, so there's a lapse there).

You’re not though, are you, that’s just anthropomorphism.

Fairly standard response to vegetarianism/veganism and although there may be a small element of this, anyone who's owned a cat or dog will know that they're capable of emotions and feeling; animals breed for meat (which includes cats and dogs in some countries) are just as aware (pigs are particularly advanced and out perform dogs in intelligence tests).

Anthropomorphism usually assumes that we see something of ourselves (that some would argue doesn't exist) in animals and that we tend to anthropomorphise cute fluffy mammals rather than fish, reptiles etc. My octopus teacher on Netflix is a good watch if you want to challenge this.

My girlfriend at the time.

Then after 10 years together including getting married, we both just got tired of it. We enjoy eating out and being limited to 10% of the menu was a bit crap. And, well, bacon. And sausages. And roast lamb. And lamb in curry. And steak. And burgers.

I’ve no problems with people eating meat, it’s their own choice and it affects me not a jot so why should I care, but it seems weird to me that people would eat it but be wiggy about the wetwork. Is there a cognitive denial around where it comes from?

As a non-veggie, I'd agree with this, plus the thing that really pisses me off is squeamishness about which bits of the thing you'll eat, like when people go "black pudding, made from blood, eeuugh!". If you don't like the taste/texture, fine, but if you'll eat one bit, you should be prepared to eat (or at least try) any bit.

And going back to a previous point, yes, assuming it's not going to poison me I have no qualms about eating horse/dog/cat (not that I've tried the latter two, horse is lovely though), because, again, if you'll eat one dead animal you should be prepared to eat any.

I say all this though as someone who has never has to kill anything and eat it. If it came to that, I think I could do it, but you never know.

black pudding

The best black pudding I've had was rabbit from a game butcher, it was bloody gorgeous.

Bacon, for me it was the cooking smell of bacon.

I shared a house with someone who ate a lot of meat and the smell was something I couldn't stand.

Probably, to some extent, but isn’t there some attachment between mother sheep and lamb? Also remember some years ago visiting a farm and there was this little lamb in the corner of the barn, a couple of holes in the wall letting sunbeams through, it literally looked angelic!

I'm not going to try and persuade you one way or the other - but we don't eat the little lambs - almost exclusively by the time we eat lamb in the UK it is something most people seeing in a field would call "a sheep". If you want to let it live a bit longer - but mutton (your local butcher will get it for you) - just cook at slower and longer, it tastes better anyway.

However if your objection is to killing the really young ones you probably need to give up dairy. Male calves and kids from varieties used for milk have a limited market and many will be culled - as I don't have an objection to eating meat, I prefer to eat Rose Veal or Kid Goat if I see it - because at least its not going to waste.

Ethical reasons, that and actually paying attention to the behaviour of animals. They have unique personalities and behave in very different ways, despite having similarities within a species or breed. I don't see anything different or special about us other than power. Eating animals for food is very similar to racism or sexism (or some driver's views on cyclists), in that an line is drawn between us and the other, and then it's OK to do what you want to the other. There was a gradual process after stopping eating meat of letting go of the denial that I'd been clinging on to, to justify my behaviour (YMMV). I'm much happier and healthier for it, physically and mentally.

They have unique personalities and behave in very different ways, despite having similarities within a species or breed. I don’t see anything different or special about us other than power. Eating animals for food is very similar to racism or sexism (or some driver’s views on cyclists), in that an line is drawn between us and the other, and then it’s OK to do what you want to the other.

That trickles down right through the animal kingdom though. I don't think it is possible to produce food without killing animals so we all just choose which animals we are willing kill or let die so we can eat. Which animals we are willing to 'other'. On a recent 'life in the wild' program a chap on there cut himself off to live as sustainably and ethically as possible. When he was fishing the presenter questioned him about the ethics and his response was that he'd kill a lot more animals in an hour tending the veg garden than an hour fishing.

I think I've always found eating meat unsettling. As a kid all I'd eat were things that didn't seem too much like chunks of flesh - sausages, chicken nuggets etc. The tipping point came at about 7 or 8 years old when I'd been to a friend's birthday at McDonalds, eating horrible nuggets and the like. On returning home, my mum had slaughtered and cooked one of our hens for dinner, and I refused to eat it. My dad pointed out the hypocrisy and suggested I go vegetarian if I had a problem with it.

The real heartbreak is when you’re gagging for chips and the chippy tells you they fry in lard #sadface

Happened to me twice in recent times.

The first was last year sometime, I dropped into a chippie I'd not been to since I was a kid. No-one around serving and a big proud sign, "we fry in beef dripping!" Ordinarily I'd ask but as the counter was empty I just left. A few weeks later the same chippie popped up on a friend's Facebook feed so I commented saying essentially what I've just said here. Next thing, I got this massive rant from the owner banging on about how lots of people like it and how he doesn't understand how you can make gravy without meat (I never asked him to and I doubt his is anything more than gravy mix anyway) and a bunch of other non-sequiturs. I was glad I hadn't given them my business.

The second was just last week. Local place, similar sign. I've been a few times before and whilst it's not on the menu they've done me 'vegetarian chips' when asked. Until this visit, "oh, we can't". You did last time, I said. "Yeah, we've changed the fryers." Uh, OK... so how do you cook the veggie burgers then? "We've a fryer out back." Cool, can't you chuck some chips in that, then? "No, it's not big enough." At which point I figured they were either being awkward for the sake of it or just couldn't be arsed.

we feed our cats cat food, so there’s a lapse there

It's not really the same though, cats are obligate carnivores. If you don't want to feed cats meat products, your only solution is "don't have a cat".

It's not like you'll be getting choice cuts anyway, regardless of the glossy labels. Meat going to animal feed will likely just have been thrown away otherwise.

It’s not really the same though, cats are obligate carnivores. If you don’t want to feed cats meat products, your only solution is “don’t have a cat”.

It’s not like you’ll be getting choice cuts anyway, regardless of the glossy labels. Meat going to animal feed will likely just have been thrown away otherwise.

It is from an 'animal cruelty' point though; the meat that goes into pet food comes (in the vast majority of cases) from the same intensively farmed animals. Just cos it's the offcuts doesn't really make any difference, you're still supporting a market for that kind of farming and production.

You can buy pet food made from free range meat, and that's where we've decided to strike the balance with our dog. It's a LOT more expensive then Pedigree Winachum Prime et al though...

Suppose it depends whether animals are being farmed specifically for the pet food market or whether it's a biproduct of our own food industry. If the former then you're absolutely right, if the latter then is it not more ethical to use as much as possible in order to minimise wastage?

(I don't have the answer to this, just throwing it out there.)

What I think is really important is not worrying about the absolutes. I’m talking more about the envirionmental side but 20 people eating half the amount of meat than previous is better than one absolutely devout vegetarian.

You aren’t a failure if you don’t cut out meat completely. but if everyone reduced their consumption a small amount it would be a massive difference

I'm one of these. (due to Vegetarian girlfriend).

Lack of restaurants for the last year, we have done a lot more in the kitchen, and a lot of vegetarian recipes these days are also vegan. I think we both more than make up for it with our cheese consumption.

I had the most amazing burger on Suturday (friend's BBQ though), having not had a burger or any beef product since last autumn.
That was amazing, and enough to make me sure I will never be voluntarily full veggie.

@IHN Not sure I agree with this. I get her bones from the butcher which would otherwise be transported 60 miles away to be burned in an incinerator.
Same with the chicken carcasses, they would only be used by humans to make stock and it's easier to use one of those stock cubes that come in a plastic pot.
The idea of free range meat is great but the standards are so low, I'm not sure it makes a huge amount of difference.

Suppose it depends whether animals are being farmed specifically for the pet food market or whether it’s a biproduct of our own food industry.

It's (in the vast majority of cases) a by-product

if the latter then is it not more ethical to use as much as possible in order to minimise wastage?

No, not really, that's like saying "these battery farmed chicken breasts in the supermarket will be thrown away if no-one else buys them, so the ethical thing to to is buy them". The ethical thing to do is not buy them, and buy free range ones (or none at all), so the market for intensively-farmed stuff shrinks, so it stops being done that way (in extremis, idealistic over simplified example outcome, obvs). Same goes for the battery farmed chicken that goes in catfood.

^^^
But the battery farmed chicken breasts are not a by-product.
The way I see it is, if 10 cows are raised and killed in order to supply a supermarket with steak and the by-product of 5 of those go to make pet food, the by-product of 3 is thrown away and the remaining amount is sold in a supermarket, then I can't see what harm there is in buying it. Especially if for a cat for less so a dog.
I guess it means you're buying fewer lentils.
And there's the packaging aspect.
I said I am a vegan but I'm not actually. If the bone I get my dog has a lot of fat on it, I will cut it off and use it to fry my palm-oil free, vegan sausages. If I didn't do that, she would either eat it and the fat is no good to her, it would go in the bin or, if I didn't get them in the first place, they'd be burnt as a waste product.
In the winter I mix it with seeds and use it to make fat balls for the birds but I don't do it all year as I don't think it's the best for them either but hopefully so in the depths of winter.

Wow Cougar,it was just a light hearted comment,I haven't expressed an opinion either way.As it happens over the last few years I've drastically cut my meat consumption for the very reasons expressed within this thread.I seem unable or unwilling to go all the way.
The ROYLE FAMILY was great you miserable git.

Bit of an odd comparison, your son being 4. We slaughter lambs at 6/7 months.

He'd be for stewing 😆

Wow Cougar,it was just a light hearted comment

The Edinburgh defence?

Similar to Atomizer - I grew up with anarcho / peace punk in the 80s and being veggie / vegan and animal rights was a big part of that. I drifted back to meat in the 90s out of sheer laziness (my diet was about 90% bread). Then a chance meeting and a few pints with Steve Ignorant (the singer of Crass and main man behind the whole anarcho punk thing) discussing veggie pizzas made me feel a bit guilty about my laziness and so i went back to being veggie. Now i have a very healthy diet i enjoy and see no reason to eat meat again.

i tell thee what gets my goat..... people who instantly turn their noses up at a 'vegan' product.

Case in point, bloke in work was checking his Ginsters Pasty 'stock levels' at home. He spotted he picked up a Vegan pepper steak slice by mistake. So instead of trying it, he asked if i wanted it (which i said yes, cos you know, free food). Its like he automatically writes the item off as its meat free..... its like its engrained in certain people/generations that if its got no meat its going to be tasteless/rubbish/not worth eating.

The mind boggles... once the urine has stopped boiling.

Maybe your mate was just being kind hearted, realised he picked up the wrong one and thought I know who would like this I'll give it to them.

But the battery farmed chicken breasts are not a by-product.

I was thinking about this last night, I think the problem is actually in classifying the 'pet food bits' as a by-product of the food production business (which I myself was doing). They're not, they're a straight product, cue simplified example...

A farmer raises chickens and sells them the the meat production plant. The meat production plant buys them, knowing it turn a profit by processing them and selling the breasts/legs/thighs to the supermarket chains, the scraggy pressure hosed bits to the chicken nugget manufacturer and the remaining 'lips, tits and arseholes' as a farmer friend once called them, to the pet food manufacturer. There's a market for all of it, and that market has depressed the price so much (mainly because of the purchasing power of the supermarkets, and our demand for crazily cheap meat) that they have to ring out every profit stream they can to make any money, so none of it would have 'gone to waste'.

So, by buying pet food from this production process, you are supporting that process, in the same way that you would be by buying the chicken breasts or the chicken nuggets.

Never liked meat after finding out where it came from as a child. Made the switch 35 years ago and still can’t understand why you would want to kill an animal for food/sport.