You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Am I likely to do this debate again ?
there is no proof but lets see what you do with the balance of probabilities 😉
Slightly?
I think if you wanted to be generous to BoJo, you could say that his muddled mode of speech caused confusion. Looking at the transcript, you could interpret it as the scientist told him it was definitely Novichok. Definitely not a straightforward “caught deliberately and knowingly lying” scenario.
This suggests there may be a link between Cambridge Analytica and Skripal
there is no proof but lets see what you do with the balance of probabilities
Well, that's just your invention, as we have no objective evidence of anything at all. PD refute BoJo's clear claim about a Russian origin, other "evidence" of an intel nature may exist but for us on the outside it is just speculation.
PD refute BoJo’s clear claim about a Russian origin, other “evidence” of an intel nature may exist but for us on the outside it is just speculation.
Well, I believe it’s only known to have been made in Russia/Soviet Union, plus their previous, plus timing. All circumstantial but lots of it!
That's the Foreign Office now been found deleting Tweets about the source too. Give the Tory press and BBC another few hours and we'll find it was all in our collective imaginations.
Am I likely to do this debate again ?
Did it get you anywhere last time?
As it seems we can’t trust the govt on the scientific evidence (which I’d been at pains to highlight all along), why are you so sure we can trust them on the evidence allegedly provided by the intelligence agencies?
Again, if it was them, 140 expelled diplomats later and aside from the amusement that the kiwis can’t find anyone to expel, has the world gained anything?
Missed this at the time… getting more relevant by the day…
https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/2090
the lass has probably told the police it was a joint suicide pact with her old man and there is now a lot of egg on our collective faces ! 😉
Interesting watching Johnson on the news today trying to excuse talking bollox by saying 'but that's what they told me'. He clearly doesn't understand the nature of leadership. He's now on twitter trying to defend himself by claiming Jeremy Corbyn is siding with the Russians.
It would appear those who compared this to the Iraq dodgy dossier and roundly dismissed as lunatic conspiracists were bang on the money.
It would appear those who compared this to the Iraq dodgy dossier and roundly dismissed as lunatic conspiracists were bang on the money.
I reckon the odds are still on it being Russia. Unfortunately though Boris being an attention seeking liar has provided ample ammunition for Russia.
I guess there is an outside chance thats what he is told but my money would be on him lying given his long track record of doing so.
Again, if it was them, 140 expelled diplomats later and aside from the amusement that the kiwis can’t find anyone to expel, has the world gained anything?
So if it is them. What do you expect the government to do? Nothing? Launch a Trident?
I would be pretty sure it was Russia - either rogue agents or state sponsored but as yet we dont have a shred of evidence even circumstantial evidence of any russian involvement.
all novichock actually means is "new substance" anyway
we dont have a shred of evidence even circumstantial evidence of any russian involvement.
All you have proved is that the russians are not shit at being spies. Of course they kill someone in a way that cannot be proved but we all know - sends out a signal but means they can do the public charade and then try to sow discord in the west as no one can prove it was them - though we al know it was. Its a very effective strategy to use against us.
The lack of unity both within the UK and the West is exactly what they want. Its hard to see how we beat them but we cannot just do nothing either. Putin seems determined to have another cold war and our resolve must be a strong as last time - though I do not welcome this I see few options.
Russia loses vote at the OPCW for joint UK-Russia investigation into <span class="hash">#</span><span class="link-complex-target">Salisbury</span> attack by 32 to 6
Fortunately though Boris being an attention seeking liar has provided ample ammunition for Russia.
FIFY.
He's more than a buffoon that bloke.
We should start calling for his sacking.
Corbyn is in the privy council wouldn't he have seen all the evidence/ intelligence?
Corbyn's call for caution and to check evidence/ do everything by the book etc was common sense and exactly what you want from a opposition leader. Its not a ****ing game!
Boris is a liability. But if he were to be sacked now it would be too much of a PR win for Russia. Unless they sack him for something else- has he mde any other gaffs?
Boris always makes Gafs but due to BRexit he is unsackable unless he does something that mean even they abandon him
This becomes more pertinent by the week....
http://newsthump.com/2017/10/04/boris-johnson-running-out-of-ideas-for-how-to-get-himself-sacked/
has he mde any other gaffs?
This week I assume?
I am sure he will come out with something shortly. Hasnt had anything racist for a while so bound to slip up again soon.
Boris is a liability
Agreed.
I am secretly hoping they keep him, whilst totally despising the moron.
Anything that displays this government as a pile of lying infighting pathetic morons is fine by me..
Brexit, I still think BloHard and his cronies ought to be brought up for treason .. but that’s for the EU thread.. and I remain steadfast in my opinion on that.
So, back to BloHard.. lying tosspot.
So if it is them. What do you expect the government to do? Nothing? Launch a Trident?
Surely doing something that has no effect gets the same result as doing nothing? And FIY, as amusing as it was seeing NZ claim they couldn’t find anyone to expel, they are a member of five-eyes, so if they wanted to find a Russian or two to expel, they could have. Basically, Adern decided she didn’t want to play this childish game, and quite right too.
One thing is definitely certain now: thanks to the government we’ll probably never know who actually carried out the attack. We have a foreign secretary who fabricates evidence, and a PM who appears to have no problem with that.
Surely doing something that has no effect gets the same result as doing nothing?
Kicking out a bunch of known spies will screw up the Russians to some extent. Probably nothing major but it will create a headache for them and a load of overtime catching up.
Going further than that though is going to be difficult. If governments were willing to do that it would have been done during the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the shooting down of the Malaysia airlines plane.
As much as I dislike Putin I do have to admire his ability to dance on the line and slowly move it.
One thing is definitely certain now: thanks to the government we’ll probably never know who actually carried out the attack.
Chances thats all we would ever know anyway even without the Maybot and the Johnson I want to PM machine. Without managing to get the relevant people into court and proving it satisfactorily it would never be sure and this lot seem to be more competent at hiding themselves than those who murdered Litvinenko. Boris Johnson seems to have given an open goal to the Russian trolls though.
As much as I dislike Putin I do have to admire his ability to dance on the line and slowly move it.
Yup, between him and Xi it's pretty clear who the adults actually are when it comes to global geopolitics compared to EU / NATO et al.
thanks to the government we’ll probably never know who actually carried out the attack
Putin thanks for you thinking this and making us debate it. He is most pleased you think he is the adult n the room as well.
the reason we wont have proof is because the adult in the room is skied enough to kill folk and not leave an auditable trail [ yet make sure everyone knows it was them especially the ex spies/traitors]and then milks the "lies" to sow further discord in the west and within 5 eyes even. Anything we do serves his purpose in all of this except for realising what the plan is and not playing along - yes Boris is shit , a liar and inept but that is proof only that he is shit , a liar and inept.
This place gets weirder by the day...Putin invades neighboring countries and is widely believed to have rigged the recent elections...but he's the adult in global politics!?...yeah, good one.
The man is as corrupt as the worst Russian stereotypes of crooked politicians gets...he bullies smaller former USSR countries...and conducts KGB-esque assassinations on foreign soil...and STW fawn over him.
Nice role model chaps. 👎
yes Boris is shit , a liar and inept but that is proof only that he is shit , a liar and inept.
And yet it's far more proof than we have that Russia as a state carried out the attack in Salisbury.
Why are you doing this, Junkyard? It's very unlike you to unquestioningly believe the government on any other issue, so why this one? Not that I care, I'll happily debate with whoever, I'm just a bit perplexed. There is circumstantial evidence that Russia was involved: a plausible (but disputable) motive, a plausible (but disputable) means, and a plausible (but disputable) opportunity. It's also plausible (but disputable) that brexit will be great for the economy and that Corbyn was both an IRA operative and a soviet spy - do you believe these things? No, of course not. So why are you so adamant that Russia did it as an act of state?
Putin thanks for you thinking this and making us debate it. He is most pleased you think he is the adult n the room as well.
And re: Putin - he plays other countries, the West in particular, like a fiddle. No, it's not pretty, but as far as his own game goes he's winning far more handsomely than any of the Western governments are. Presuming for a moment that it was Putin who ordered the attack in Salisbury, there's absolutely nothing that the UK has done so far to deter him from doing it again. In fact we've only served to demonstrate just how impotent we actually are when things like this happen. But really I'm sure he's doing it just to sow discord on a niche MTB forum 🙄
There isn't even circumstantial evidence from what I have seen.
I am pretty sure russia did it either state sanctioned or rogue agents but evidence? I'd like something
This place gets weirder by the day…Putin invades neighboring countries and is widely believed to have rigged the recent elections…but he’s the adult in global politics!?…yeah, good one.
It is possible to see him as the smartest* guy in the room, but still utterly despicable for all that?
The fact that we haven't anyone with the ability to counter him doesn't make him any less smart or despicable. I don't know what we should do personally, but for that reason I have no aspirations to be For.Sec. or PM or the head of the Intelligence Services, I leave it to cleverer people than me..... oh.
FWIW it seems pretty 'obvious' that Russia was behind the attacks but also obvious we can't prove it and probably shouldn't have shouted it out so loudly claiming we could. I'm sure a mix of analysis plus Intelligence gets a lot closer to the facts than the analysis alone. So in the same way as they are saying 'you can't prove anything' we should be saying 'we know that you know we know, but you also know why we can't show you the proof'
* allegedly Boris is also very smart, he just hides it very well under a covering of incompetence.
99% of people probably think Russia were behind it (me included). But by jumping in with no evidence you are just playing to Putin's plans. He probably knows full well you will never 100% nail it on Russia.
Largest trace found on front door handle. Possible scenario - bogus delivery man goes to door with package (when no one in) covers handle and leaves. No one would have suspected anything at the time, delivery drivers are a very common site.
Yup, between him and Xi it’s pretty clear who the adults actually are when it comes to global geopolitics compared to EU / NATO et al.
I think you give them too much credit. They rule countries where any sort of democracy is a sham, they need to project a strong powerful image and portray the West as aggressors that their country needs some strong and powerful to defend them against.
They also know their military is powerful enough that they have little to fear from retaliation other than sanctions, but sanctions just feed back into the narrative the West is out to destroy their country so actually just reinforces the strength of their position.
Generally in the West although fear of the East is used as a way to try and push through agendas it's nothing like to the same extent and it's a much dodgier game, likely to backfire, if a Western leader is seen to be deliberately destabilising the situation or going against international law they risk voters turning against them.
So Putin and May aren't on a level playing field, he has much more leeway to act how it suits his agenda and much more control of the media to ensure whatever message he wants to get across does so (and the ability to imprison detractors with little recourse doesn't hurt either, I'm sure the Russian version of JC would be locked up by now for undermining the state etc.). It's easy to 'win' at something if everything is stacked in your favour.
Generally in the West although fear of the East is used as a way to try and push through agendas it’s nothing like to the same extent and it’s a much dodgier game, likely to backfire, if a Western leader is seen to be deliberately destabilising the situation or going against international law they risk voters turning against them.
Didn't seem to cause too many issues for Blair and Bush with Iraq. Invade on the back of known dodgy intelligence, kill over 1m people and spawn ISIS in the process, ensure whistleblower meets a sticky end and then sail off into the sunset of after-dinner speeches at $100k a pop.
Yup May held info back from Corbyn too.
Hardly surprising she's made an effort to hide as much as possible able about Brexishambles from the public & parliament. It just seems to be her way.
The amusing irony about May's penchant for being a control freak is that it's usually pretty obvious who is personally responsible for the mess the government gets itself into.
The man is as corrupt as the worst Russian stereotypes of crooked politicians gets…he bullies smaller former USSR countries…and conducts KGB-esque assassinations on foreign soil…and STW fawn over him.
I don't think crooked politicians are exclusive to Russia.
Reminds me of Reagan and the US administration of the time.
Both abhorrent.
Why are you doing this, Junkyard? It’s very unlike you to unquestioningly believe the government on any other issue, so why this one?
Nice wording - when did you stop beating your wife zokes? As I just attacked Boris as a liar its blindingly obvious I dont unquestioningly believe them. Why have you written in such a tabloid manner? Its beneath you and beneath adult debate.Just because they sometimes lie to me does not mean they always lie to me and there are just no other plausible alternatives - so you think we did it to stir up trouble then ? There is no other probable agent to do this and its not even their first killing of an ex agent on our soil nor is it the first one killed with a poison.
A better question is why are you defending - actually you are praising - Putin? He invades countries, interferes in elections, commits assassinations abroad - this is just the latest one not the only one - and here you are defending him as it might not be him .
Essentially Putin , and his spokesperson, are the ninfan of international politics. A small veneer of plausibility to what they say despite it being complete BS . They know it is and they dont care as they say it for its effect on other people rather than because its true
But really I’m sure he’s doing it just to sow discord on a niche MTB forum
Best of luck beating the straw man to death . The claim s he wants British /western folk to defend him and attack the UK position and to create an air of uncertainty of over who did it, what our motives are etc. I shall leave you to ponder on whether you think you have done his work for him or not
I am pretty sure russia did it either state sanctioned or rogue agents but evidence? I’d like something
His agents are not shit that they could not cover their own tracks and leave no trace behind. We are not going to get the spy nor a confession from Putin so this high bar will never ever be achieved. All we have is the balance of probabilities - no one seems to deny it was them or offer another credible scenario of who would kill the ex russian spy branded a traitor with a state level nerve agent first produced by the state he betrayed.
Rusty we have crooked politicians but none have re written the constitution as have both putin and Xi, None have created a dictatorship[ within the veneer of democaracy], none have barred opposition leaders from standing etc. Yes ours are shit but they are on a different level,
Zokes, quoting Xi as being an example of an adult in the room is off the mark - Xi's addiction to power clouds Chinas future. A "leader for life" nearly destroyed China before and they run the very real risk of doing that again, I find their choice in scrapping the constitutional limits on the presidency to be hilarious in light of the fact that the model that Deng Xiaoping introduced worked well, certainly better than any form of governance that China has had in the past. The major economic achievements of China has introduced an arrogance fuelled historical amnesia in their political elites.
The west needs to play the long game with these idiots and let them **** up their own countries.
Nice wording – when did you stop beating your wife zokes?
What the actual ****? And then you denigrate my style of debate. I have to congratulate you on getting far more personal than THM ever managed. What a ****.
The west needs to play the long game with these idiots and let them **** up their own countries.
The west definitely needs to play the long game, that I think we can agree on. But it’s a serious mistake to believe Putin and Xi to be stupid, or incapable of long-term success. There are very plausible scenarios where that success could come at great expense of the West. This should be planned for.
Fabricating evidence, international lecturing on the basis of lies and the token gesture of expelling diplomats, followed by faux indignation when it’s reciprocated is neither clever nor long term. It’s crass political short-termism at its finest, and all of it plays into the hands of Putin, Xi, and others who benefit from the west’s fading influence.
That is a well known example of the logical fallacy of a loaded question and is googleable. I am not suggesting you do this and you have completely misunderstood my point ;it has been used multiple times on here as the standard example.
I think we both might need to apologise
I apologise for you reading that as me actually meaning that. It was not my intention and I do not think you would or have ever beat your wife.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html
So we have fabricated evidence and sent it to our Nato allies, Zokes?
Apology accepted John, and sorry for calling you a four asterisk in response. Classic example of nuance lost in text. Sorry about that.
Tom: yes, fabrication of evidence. Boris made up the fact that he had scientific proof of the source of the toxin. This is something we discussed at length two weeks ago. The FO has been handily deleting tweets to emphasise this point further.
I think BoJo was muddled and ambiguous in his language, as is his wont, rather than lying outright. He has certainly played into the Russians’ hands though; a little more confusion, discord and division!
Re the FO’s tweets, possibly a bit of institutional confusion there too, ie person running the social media believing Porton had confirmed the source. There’s not many scientifically trained folk in our institutions, more’s the pity!
And I would be somewhat surprised that we provided information to our allies via Twitter and German TV
Precisely Mefty, as has been stated, classified intel has been shared with our NATO partners. Junkyard is right in saying that the Ruesians are doing a Ninfan.
Airtragic wrote:
"I think BoJo was muddled and ambiguous in his language"
Not even slightly. Here's the transcript, there's no ambiguity at all and no room for confusion.
"you argue that the source of this nerve agent, Novichok, is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of it?
“Let me be clear with you … When I look at the evidence, I mean the people from Porton Down, the laboratory,”
"So they have the samples?"
“They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, "Are you sure?" And he said there's no doubt,”
But when you listen to it, it’s his normal rambling chat. It’s much less clear than it looks there. I think it’s plausible that he was conflating the scientist confirming the identity of the nerve agent with the supporting evidence of its origin.
BloHard supporter then are you..
Why, do I have to leave if I am? As it happens I’ve got no time for the man. But that’s how I see what has happened here.
Leave if you like, free country.
Apology accepted John, and sorry for calling you a four asterisk in response. Classic example of nuance lost in text. Sorry about that.
No worries I understand your reaction given what you thought I had called you
I can see that he was 'mistaken' and overspoke the evidence he had to hand at the time. Or at least maybe he also knew the secret intelligence evidence that I'm pretty sure also exists but we obvs can't be told about and conflated that with the scientific evidence.
However - on matters like this misspeaks and confusion are not really acceptable. We see it with Trump unable to follow the script, we see it here with Boris regularly going off course and then backtracking, it just isn't good enough from the people we 'elected' to run these matters for us.
And yes, I know the Whitehall mandarins / White House special advisors run it really, they too must be in despair every time their bosses fail to follow a simple instruction.
Leave if you like, free country.
Not until after Brexit.
"I think it’s plausible that he was conflating the scientist confirming the identity of the nerve agent with the supporting evidence of its origin."
How? He was asked "How did you find out the source of the nerve agent was Russia so quickly" and responded "Porton Down told me so". There's no ambiguity at all and no room for confusion. Just because he had some trouble reaching the end of the sentence, it doesn't change the setup or the response.
Theotherjonv put it better than me. I hear it as [after being interrupted with a question specifically about the samples] “Are you sure [it’s Novichok] ?” [conflates with evidence from other sources] “and he said there’s no doubt”.
Why didn't they (whoever they maybe) just shoot or simply run the ex-spook over with a car, hit and run.
Would have saved them with this diplomatic gas out.
I wonder what this evidence that Corbyn hasn't seen is? The Tories game playing over this is pretty ****ing despicable. I wish there were some grown-ups in charge or at least some in the media who would call them out over it. I despair at politics at the moment.
Why didn’t they (whoever they maybe) just shoot or simply run the ex-spook over with a car, hit and run.
the russian security services an the state want all traitors to know they will get you. How any do they need to kill for you to realise this ?
No comments on the alleged phone call? What is going on with that?
Not Sarcasm:
What phone call are you hinting at ? I have not heard anything
Genuinely not sarcasm
Yulia apparently called her Cousin in Russia, There's a published transcript of it on the net somewhere.
everyone is fine, according to the phonecall she made to her cousin, who happened to be recording it 😉
without getting too tinfoil hat, is it not surprising that yulia has recovered from a nerve agent attack, I was under the impression that effects would be much more serious
& the police killed their guinea pigs & cat!
without getting too tinfoil hat, is it not surprising that yulia has recovered from a nerve agent attack, I was under the impression that effects would be much more serious
It's Easter. Miracles happen.
But when you listen to it, it’s his normal rambling chat. It’s much less clear than it looks there. I think it’s plausible that he was conflating the scientist confirming the identity of the nerve agent with the supporting evidence of its origin.
This is such a pathetic argument, and yet another example of how normal standards apparently don't apply to Boris.
He lied - stop making excuses. He said a thing he knew wasn't true, in order to support the argument he was trying to make. Where I come from that's called lying.
“They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, “Are you sure?” And he said there’s no doubt,”
Which part of this is in any way true?
Kimbers, dependa on the dose she got doesn't it? Also, it's entirely plausible that either porton down have classified treatments or the hospital tried something new.
Its pretty hard to tellwith Boris in the actual clip and it reads much worse than it sounds - he is a liar and he lying there to be clear- but he does also appear to be having one of this fumbling bumbling stuttery interviews he does from time to time ;his mouth is engaged whilst his brain is thinking about women he wants to be unfaithful with and what race or region to insult next
The problem is he has set the bar so low you can actually make a case for him inadvertently speaking out his arse. Either way he is unfit to serve in any office never mind high office as diplomat.
Junkyard +1.
This is such a pathetic argument, and yet another example of how normal standards apparently don’t apply to Boris.
I’d apply the same standards to anyone. No fan of BoJo.
without getting too tinfoil hat, is it not surprising that yulia has recovered from a nerve agent attack, I was under the impression that effects would be much more serious
AIUI if you don’t die of asphyxiation at the time, you metabolise it out and regenerate your atropine (I think) over time.
I’d apply the same standards to anyone. No fan of BoJo.
I really don't believe you. You don't have to be a fan to buy into this BS 'oh it's just Boris being Boris, haha' narrative. When the reality is he will just say anything he thinks will serve his cause at any given moment. It's not funny or acceptable, and this is how we end up with people like Trump being president.
I'm not fan of BoJo, at best he's an embarrassment and shouldn't be in any position of power. However I also think this is more a stupid over-statement of a link as being proof rather than a deliberate falsification. PD confirms it's Novichok and they or MI6 likely brief him it was developed under a Soviet-era programme and was only known to have been produced in what was at the time a Soviet territory and anything stockpiled would almost certainly have been returned to Mother Russia.
So bumbling Boris is hearing is a very specialist nerve agent only known to have been developed by Russia and mistakenly phrases it as PD confirms this instance of the agent originated in Russia.
As has been said, given the importance of getting everything right on this even that's not an excusable mistake to make and he should be fired but to try and make it into some deliberate conspiracy and cast increasing doubt on whether Russia was responsible I think is a mistake.
As to why Russia would use such a specialist nerve agent - well it has parallels with them using Polonium that could be traced to a Russian reactor. They want people to know it was them (to send a message to anyone that crosses the state) without having to admit it and risk facing more severe international retaliation. Unfortunately BoJo being incompetent is just making it easier for them to play their game.
+1 grum
Well, according to R4 Today, which is the closest thing we have to Fox and Friends in this country, it was "clumsy language" by Bozo, which was followed by a "Labour claim" that he had misled the public.
So - we aren't so far from Trump-land after all.
That’s actually deeply disturbing, DrJ
In other news, the cat might be toast, but it looks like Skripal is recovering rapidly: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/06/sergei-skripal-no-longer-in-critical-condition-and-improving-rapidly?CMP=fb_gu
I guess we can let Russia have its diplomats back now, unless the RSPCA now have international sanctioning powers...
Meanwhile, up the river in Amesbury...
http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/16333464.amesbury-incident-police-confirm-novichok-exposure/
As ever, the Journal should be your source for news on this.
Wow...... what is happening in this country. Were they deliberately poisoned, did they come across some reminant from before or are they involed somehow.
Any chemist know how easy it is to make?
And to think, our brave and noble future monarch, who'll soon be head of state for several of His Majesties Governments the world over was in Salisbury recently!
Democracy in PERIL!!
Shut down the world cup, fly our boys home n bomb Putin and his cronies back to the Tzar age!!
We can't tolerate the indiscriminate killing of cats and guinea pigs!!!
Wow…… what is happening in this country. Were they deliberately poisoned, did they come across some reminant from before or are they involed somehow.
Any chemist know how easy it is to make?
They are all organophosphorus compounds that at first glance look terrifyingly simple to make, just in terms of the reagents and rudimentary transformations involved. Like a one-armed man with access to a bathtub could be brewing up kilos of the stuff. This is unlikely to occur, fortunately, as the virulent toxicity of the final product (plus stability issues in a lot of cases) makes it very difficult to purify and handle, meaning chemistry expertise and equipment is needed. So it's in the realm of the state, rather than terrorist, production of chemical weapons [the sarin attack in Japan 20 years ago I guess tests this statement, but that was a singular example of craziness - religious cult leader built a 30 million dollar lab to produce the substance].
The novichoks AFAIK are mixtures of two chemicals (binaries) to solve the problem of handling the nerve agent. One part will be an organophosphorus precursor of much reduced toxicity, that could be claimed to have legitimate use (e.g. as a pesticide) and the other part will be something common and innocuous like an amine or a nitrile, mix them together and you get the weapon on demand.
It's depressing stuff, tbh, and I hope the Amesbury couple pull through. One for jivehoneyjive - At least they didn't have to send the samples far for analysis - Porton Down (where VX and many more nerve agents were invented) is only 3 miles away...
Meanwhile, in Swindon, GWH is on lock down. Copper with possible symptoms. Has apparently been transferred to Salisbury.