What the hell is go...
 

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[Closed] What the hell is going on in Salisbury

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I think that's probably the case too. And I haven't ever really doubted that it was Russia (insert ducks statement again) or if not them possibly a rogue element with Russian material - but if you look at motive, means and opportunity it's very quacky.

It's just the haste with which we've been judge, jury and executioner, with sentence passed and bags being packed on a say-so, looks a bit desperate, some might say amateurish. Just say - it's a nerve agent of the type developed by the Soviets in the 70's and once we have clarity on the source and route as required / provided by the OPCW we will act accordingly.

Of course even if we had ALL the data and published it there would still be some that would claim it was a sample acquired by a real life 007 type on a raid on the Kremlin back in the 70's (including escaping from a 7'6" henchman in a speedboat up the Moskva whilst shagging Brezhnev's private secretary) but that's the great thing about conspiracies - the more florid the better.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 3:52 pm
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You don’t just send a highly toxic compound by air freighter overnight to the OPCW, as others have said, they come to you.

I know, I'm not arguing with you. I can barely get someone to take a sample of a haircare polymer in ethanol nowadays because it's flammable. It'd certainly be cheaper to pay a bloke in a dinner suit to take it by Aston Martin.

If they could just get a shift on though.....


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 3:57 pm
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"in fact it has been argued that European pressure is partly what caused May to back down on the inquiry in the first place."

Theresa Mays letter to the corroner cited 'diplomatic concerns, costs-in a time of austerity- & length of time' as to why she didnt want an inquiry

The letter was published by the inquest team on the day David Cameron described the Russian president, Vladimir Putin as his “new friend”.

The Prime Minister appeared on BBC Radio’s Test Match Special during a visit to Lords cricket ground for the second Ashes test between England and Australia.

He joked that he might try to teach "my new friend Vladimir Putin", to play cricket, after he was offered a trip "down-hill skiing" on a recent visit to Russia

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10191007/International-relations-did-play-part-in-refusal-for-Litvinenko-inquiry-Government-admits.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/19/litvinenko-inquiry-request-rejected-russia


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 4:01 pm
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May won't ultimately do a damn thing this time either. Because pretty much all the property in the posher parts of central London is owned by Putins mates and the City is absolutely awash with all their dirty money being laundered.

This is just making it look like she's doing something. Wait for all to blow over, the Russian diplomats all return and its business as usual, and the gravy train keeps rolling on

The EU didn't go along with the UK last time because they know this full well, and its a case of 'well you made your bed.....'


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 4:05 pm
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It can't be that difficult to smuggle in Nerve Agent. Just put it in a jiffy bag and ask Simon Cope to fly in with it.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 4:34 pm
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Porton don’t deny having chemical weapon stocks, it’s on their website! As people are pointing out with increasing weariness, research stocks that’s not the same thing as having the capability and intent to use them as weapons

But the capability of replication is there and understood.. So any government worth thier own backside would initiate a diagnostic experiment on the what/how to/replicate just in case it would be needed.

We are all aware that in the 21st and into the 22nd century wars won’t be fought by blokes with guns, that’s too costly to both sides, it’ll be fought with mass destruction weapons and intelligence infrastructure and network meltdowns.. So weapons of the chemical kind would be needed, if not developed by any government...

Just because a “treaty” agreeing to ban/dispose of them was signed makes for last nights DailyWhail headline... forgotten and used for bedding in a budgies cage.

My POV is this government should be committed to understand and replicate all unknown toxins and their capability to be used as weapons against humans. Two fold here, one that we know and understand the capability and two that we understand the sheer decimation that something of this caliber is capable of.

If a full attack of chemical weapons was to hit the U.K. (pure speculation here) the U.K. would naturally be for retaliation. Fighting chemical weapons with an aircraft carrier with no planes on is only conceived by imbeciles, those chemical weapons that the U.K. has the capability of replication would be the only option available, or waving a white flag make out of the last white lab coat unaffected.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 4:38 pm
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May has done something...she's expelled 23 spies, which is significantly higher proportion than we ever expelled during the cold war. This will hurt Russia more than doing anything financial as it takes away key channels of Russian intelligence network which is of much greater value to Russia than a handful of billions of dollars to insanely rich oligarchs. OK it's not going to disable the Russian machine in any way, but is enough of a sting. But other than that it is a small gesture and without support from other nations we're not going to be able to do anything serious....and we probably don't want to. We still want to have relations with Russia, we don't want to cut them off, we want to send a message that this sort of behaviour is unacceptable. Anyway, it'll all settle down over time.

The EU has its fair share of soviet spies too, but Putin is not targeting them because he will get no benefit from it. He looks more powerful rattling our cage than rattling the EU's. That's why he sends his jets into our airspace and not the EU's. We're the old NATO power, the old enemy, the ones that will stand up and take action. No point in goading the EU cause they'll never do anything anyway.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 4:41 pm
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People are nuts... the more I learn of human nature, the more I wonder what hope there is for our long term survival in the distorted world that's been created around us.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 4:43 pm
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If a full attack of chemical weapons was to hit the U.K. (pure speculation here) the U.K. would naturally be for retaliation. Fighting chemical weapons with an aircraft carrier with no planes on is only conceived by imbeciles, those chemical weapons that the U.K. has the capability of replication would be the only option available, or waving a white flag make out of the last white lab coat unaffected.

Same as the US, it’s a WMD attack. Our response is potentially nuclear. Or conventional, depending on the scenario. Also it would invoke Article 5. It’s one of the things NATO and the Nuclear deterrent is supposed to deter!


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 4:56 pm
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I just think this.. if ever a proper attack was to hit this soil, or any other soil for that matter.. that a few scrawls on a bit of paper that declared “back in another era” that no country would use WMD of any kind is completely worthless.. and to be used as a guide only 🤷‍♂️💥☄️


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 5:03 pm
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The real solution is to clone the planet and ditch all the war mongering knobends, whatever their creed, colour or politics...


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 5:06 pm
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May has done something…she’s expelled 23 spies

No she hasn't. She's expelled 23 staff at the Russian embassy. This isn't James Bond. The James Bond types are out there bumping people off with impunity

We’re the old NATO power, the old enemy, the ones that will stand up and take action

Seriously? Like not sending any senior cabinet members to the world cup. Take that!!

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/may-warns-russia-to-assassinate-people-more-responsibly-20180313145844


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 5:10 pm
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 That’s why he sends his jets into our airspace and not the EU’s.

You do know that's bollocks, yeah?


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 5:17 pm
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Kimbers, "diplomatic concerns" says it all, she didn't have the backing of the Germans or Frrnch.

The Europeans turning around and laughing at us in the news has nothing to do with any way that we have encouraged this to a greater extent than the EU and everything to do with spitefullness and a lack of willingness to upset Russia.

They are also obseased with the idea that trade and interconnectedness can keep a country  like Russia in check, I think time will prove them wrong.

When it comes to Russia, Patton had the right idea.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 5:24 pm
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The EU are laughing at us because we invited State Sponsored Russian Gangsters to come and launder all their blood-soaked dirty money through the City of London, no questions asked.

Then we act all surprised when shit like this happens.

it happened here, and not in Frankfurt or Marseille for very good reason, despite May saying it ‘could happen anywhere.

Well, yes.... it could, but it’s highly unlikely. It happened here because here is where the Russians have outsourced  all their dodgy shit too, with the full complicity of British institutions


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:00 pm
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And you don't think Deutsche Bank would be doing ecactly the same if those operations were based in Berlin?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-01/coming-clean-the-great-russian-dirty-money-caper-that-wasn-t

I take issue with "full complicity" as well, that shows a complete disregard for how hard it is to actually track and action dirty money. Whilst it's the Europeans who want us to actually ease the sanctions on Russia that go along way to halting a lot of it. Italy for example, is utterly awash with dirty Russian interests.

If you handn't noticed, neither this or the 2006 incident had anything to do with dirtg money.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:04 pm
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May has done something…she’s expelled 23 spies

No she hasn’t. She’s expelled 23 staff at the Russian embassy.

This is the truth. He speaketh the truth.

23 staff could mean 19 cleaners, 2 secretaries, the bloke who cleans shoes and a third tier document filing clerk.

We don’t know who these people are, frankly I’m not interested.. but a clear statement of the grade and intelligence level of the expulsions would allay any speculation .. eh MayBot..

G’wan.. tell us who they are or at least tell the WhailingDaily so you can suck up to your right wing nutjobs.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:05 pm
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Cleaners aren't diplomats. Put away your tin foil hat. Those being expelled have been notified directly. It's not 23 randoms.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:14 pm
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Interesting that BBC news has just realised there’s a conflict going on in Syria. They’re showing the Russian/Assad shelling of civilians

Its only usually channel 4 news that bothers to cover it.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:16 pm
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scotroutes

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That’s why he sends his jets into our airspace and not the EU’s.

You do know that’s bollocks, yeah?

I suspect it’s more an accident of geography than a deliberate policy.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:16 pm
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I suspect it's more to do with all those American airbases in Germany

They even bother the naughty Netherlands

https://nltimes.nl/2018/01/15/russian-bombers-intercepted-belgian-jets-netherlands


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:29 pm
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Sols-bury is correct imo. Do you also say Oarstralia?

Of course I say Ostralia, but there's no AU in Salisbury. ;P


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:34 pm
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neither this or the 2006 incident had anything to do with dirtg money.

Wasn't litvinenko investigating russian money laundering when he was killed?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/16/litvinenko-investigating-abramovich-money-laundering-claims-court-told


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:34 pm
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https://euobserver.com/foreign/136262

Pot, meet kettle.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:41 pm
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So is hat where the DUP got their secret brexit money ?  😉


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:46 pm
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Al the stuff I can find on the origin of Syria's chemical wepons point to fabrication in the country in the 80s and then hoarding despite destruction programmes, Binners. I think that when you include Russia in the use of chemical shells I think you are wrong but as ever I'm happy to be proved wrong if you can link something to say the chemical shells were anything other than Syrian made and fired.

The Goutha Oriental offensive has reguarly on all the news channels I watch including Sky. I don't think there's been a news blackout but it seems that this is a good time to raise the profile of the reporting. The world has sat back and watched the masacre perhapos thinking the civil war is keeping the jihadists busy in their own back yard and anything that redices ISIS power can't be all bad. Russia taking on the main role in Syria has meant other states haven't had to get their hands as dirty.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 6:57 pm
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Just back to the tracing of the compound, I’m still unsure this can be done unequivocally. Sure, only a very small amount is required to prove its chemical structure, and that’s probably available from samples taken from the scene. We can then hypothecate possible source on the basis of our presumed knowledge of the location of labs with the capability to produce it.

However, to forensically trace its source, you’re likely going to need a combination of the stable isotopic signatures of its elemental constituents, coupled with those of any metal impurities therein. On a few mg of sample you could conceivably get stable isotope signatures of any C, H, N, O, S (and perhaps halogens, but not P as it has no minor stable isotopes), but you’d be struggling to even get a trace element suite done with what’s left, never mind their isotopic signatures. Even if you did, all it takes is for the precursors to come from different places and you have an uninterpretable mix unless you have the exact same precursors to test.

It’s probably not impossible. But it would be one heck of an analytical challenge even if you had plenty of the sample to test, which they probably don’t.

I agree with the duck duck quack hypothesis. But that’s all it is. We can chemically prove it’s identy, but unequivocally chemically forensically proving its source is pretty unlikely.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 8:00 pm
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What about things like leechables zokes? Labs and manufacturing plants have  a habit of introducing various crap into the equation.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 8:17 pm
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And lets say that this was a binary derived Novichok-7 that was used - that would put this firmly in Russias camp would it not? As it was developed in 1993, after the fall of the USSR.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/96/i12/Nerve-agent-attack-on-spy-used-Novichok-poison.html


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 8:58 pm
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I see Macron has implemented an appropriate level of sanctions. He won't be going to the Russian section at the book fair.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 9:08 pm
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So, they are changing their tone before we make them look very foolish publicly through the OCPW?


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 9:14 pm
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Without wishing to appear thick, who are the "they" who are changing their tone?


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 9:22 pm
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The French Edukator, they called it fantasy politics or some such the other day.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736

Meanwhile, the Irish are saying we brought it on ourselves because we gave a genuine political dissident (although admittedly dodgy) political asylum. However, you didn't see the same victim blaming coming from them after the Bataclan attack which as we all know, was because the French were obviously giving refuge to some dodgy types as well.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 9:36 pm
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Paris attackers had french passports , no need to seek refuge in france ............


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 9:46 pm
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In not sure that following due process, makes you look foolish?

The cen article is good, but surely it doesn't preclude that any nation with the formula & the right lab could combine the 2 binary agents?

As zokes says, it will surely come down to how much of the poison the gov have managed to acquire,

Im not sure they even know where the skirpals were actualy exposed, if they have enough to analyse it will require those trace compounds from synthesis to be able to point the finger, just the formula can't be conclusive ?


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 9:46 pm
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Paris attackers had french passports , no need to seek refuge in france

Wrong. Not all of them.

Edukator, the right lab is the important bit, along with the right people, your average chemist is not going to be able to make it without killing themselves and their colleagues. Then you need trained operators with the right delivery method, so the operators don't die at the scene.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 9:48 pm
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ah yes , some were from belgium .


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 9:52 pm
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No, there was at least one Iraqi and some other unknowns.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 10:01 pm
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What about things like leechables zokes? Labs and manufacturing plants have  a habit of introducing various crap into the equation.

They do, and probably each plant for each precursor will have its own signature, and these would be combined when the final product is synthesised. However, you would still need a sizeable quantity of sample from the scene to test, which I just don't think they'd have access to. And you'd also need to know with certainty the leachables profile of the plants in question for those precurors.

They'd already have used quite a lot of it in various MS and NMR / IR specs (though the latter two can usually be non-destructive) to find out what it was they were actually dealing with. ICP-MS, as astonishingly sensitive as it is, would require quite a lot of sample in order to detect simple elemental ratios of any metal contaminants. If we assume something you could trace like Sr is present in the final product at 1 ppm, and you have 1 mg of the product to test, you'd only have 1 ng of Sr, and you have to remember that anything the sample touches (including reagents) in the testing lab will also leave some background.

Like I said, other sources of evidence appear to be quite strong: duck, quack, etc. But unless the lab has a few hundred mg of the sample to test, has an extensive library of its precursors and their characteristic contaminants and isotopic signatures from different sources to run any elemental or isotopic mixing models against, forensically proving where it is from from a chemical perspective is nigh on impossible. It's an interesting academic question.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 10:23 pm
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Stolen from twitter:

In all the briefings about the spy poisoning from the Government, why no updates on the search for the individuals who carried out the attack and their chemicals stash?

You know the usual sort of thing that goes on after a serious crime. And, why no media questions about this?

Of course, there could be plausible explanations, but questions need asking...


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 10:23 pm
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The bloke from Russia Today on Question Time has got a proper Goodfellas air about him.

its funny watching Kier Starmer trying to get over the fact that he’s working under some myopic  ‘my enemies enemy is my friend’ fruitloop for a leader


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 11:16 pm
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Not watched RT but I could imagine he's RT's Paxman/Kyle cross.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 11:20 pm
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Jivehoney, perhaps they don't have suspect individuals yet or perhaps they don't want to divulge for the same reason they don't when dealing with large terror cells.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 11:33 pm
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Also, interesting and well made post Zokes. Food for thought, are any chemistry journals weighing in? The ones I posted seemed fairlyfcinvinced. Your poat makes me think that they might have perhaps found something in the investigation (eg unused substance) which they have only divulged with Nato today.


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 11:37 pm
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 there could be plausible explanations

is it that spies are good at hiding ? I guess this is too obvious for you. I cannot quite work out how to get Jimmy saville and prince phillip in the answer but i cannot wait for your effort


 
Posted : 15/03/2018 11:51 pm
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Food for thought, are any chemistry journals weighing in?

Not that I'm aware of, and I should add that I'm more an ecologist and biogeochemist than an analytical chemist or forensic scientist. However, as odd as it sounds we do actually use the same tools in the lab, just for quite different purposes (like trying to work out what are the main constituents of complex organic matter in soils, and where it comes from). For example, the exact same isotope ratio mass spec we have in our lab is also used to prove that testosterone in athletes is / isn't doping: synthetic testosterone carries a different isotopic signature to that produced by the body. Indeed, the engineer from the supplier is helping set up the labs for the Commonwealth Games at the moment. I just find this stuff fascinating.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 12:03 am
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<div class="bbp-reply-author">ivehoneyjive
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People are nuts… the more I learn of human nature, the more I wonder what hope there is for our long term survival in the distorted world that’s been created around us.

</div>

Yawning Irony Award Post Of The Month.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 6:54 am
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The bloke from Russia Today on Question Time has got a proper Goodfellas air about him.

Alex Salmond's 'talk show' * on RT last night was a jaw-dropping exercise in how easily your dignity and integrity can be jettisoned when someone starts waving banknotes at you (OK, we had a fair idea that this was the case with Salmond when Trump came to town a few years back.) Ended with a irony-rich spiel on freedom of speech, presumably aimed at the threats to take RT off the air via Ofcom.

*parade of pro-Kremlin apologists.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 7:21 am
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on RT last night was a jaw-dropping exercise in how easily your dignity and integrity can be jettisoned when someone starts waving banknotes at you.

much like the UK and the Saudis then.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 7:24 am
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By far the most obvious line of enquiry is that the daughter carried it (presumably unwittingly) and the murderers never entered the country.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 7:37 am
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Jezzas busy making sure he doesn't come as scarily close to being PM as he did last time

Its all a conspiracy

Putin must be laughing his tits off! He's running rings around everyone, like he has been doing for years


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 8:57 am
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Strange one this - the NATO GenSec was on R4 earlier and he too was 'convinced' that it was Russia, no other credible explanation, etc.  Clearly they know stuff that we don't because I can think of several other explanations that could be credible based on the facts we have.

And I understand why they can't share these widely, but then that leads to the 'trust us, we just know' kind of position we are in.

Because given the events of the last 1,2, 5, 10 etc. years - from WMD to Brexit the one thing I think most of us agree on, is that they can't be trusted.

Yet what else can we do?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 8:57 am
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Interesting that BBC news has just realised there’s a conflict going on in Syria. They’re showing the Russian/Assad shelling of civilians

Who knows, maybe at some point they'll spot that our pals the Turks are doing the same in Afrin. And as for Yemen ...


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 8:58 am
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Putin must be laughing his tits off!

You say that, but Gavin Williamson told him to "go away and shut up", so I'm sure he is quaking in a cupboard in his dacha.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:00 am
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It's a bit worrying when we have a defence sec who makes Michael Fallon look like some kind of statesman.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:06 am
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Putin must be laughing his tits off! He’s running rings around everyone, like he has been doing for years

The trouble is, his gain is in cementing his own power in Russia, but he is damaging the world, and Russians are suffering the most from his actions. It is always assumed that he is a strong and powerful leader running rings round everyone else, but at the back of my mind I wonder if he is just a Trump like ego blundering his way through power, and lucking out.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:10 am
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When Corbyn comes over as the voice of reason the others really have got themselves into a tizzy.

Trump now admitting Russian intervention in his own electoral victory and media recognition that Hilary suffered Russian sabotage. Time for a new election in the US.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:25 am
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Do you see Trump bowing out because the Americans can't effectively deal with the Russians whilst he is in power? Due to something the Russians have on him?

Zokes, it's been a long long time since I studied biochemistry, I've spent most of my time since graduating in QA, whilst my degree was quite clinically focused. Any ideas on the decontamination routine for this? Because a few arrsers are saying that the usual "hose it down with water" routine isn't going to cut if for this, also the borderline sub-clinical effects can last for a lifetime. The sheer potency would make me worried about the effectiveness of any decontamination procedure to be honest.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:37 am
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well if we apply the same logic as the government, then the UK assassinated Kim Jong Nam in 2017 via the use if the Binary Agent VX as that is one that we invented, therefore it must have been us?!


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:38 am
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Tazzy, I suspect that they used a variant of Novichok that has only been manufactured in Russia post the collapse of the Iron curtain. (Binary Novichok-7 has been mentioned, as that was produced in '93 supposedly).

Then there is the possibility that it may have actually entered the UK in the suitcase of the daughter....

At the end of the day, you are supporting and giving credibility to the Russians of all people over your own government, which I find hilarious - even with the history of the WMD dossier. Do you really think the intelligence agencies and one of the most respected NBC defence research centres in the world want to lose their international reputation again?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:42 am
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problem is that the chap that invented Novichok has been in america since 1996 when he defected, so its not like the information is only in one location. Its all a bit too clear cut and "sexed up WMD dossier" at the moment ready to give May her Falklands moment and distract form the brexit cock ups and stripping of funding for school dinners etc... its a good time to bury bad news.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:47 am
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One of the chaps involved, in producing some of the variants.

So you are suggesting that actually, this is a CIA hit and the Americans smuggled Novichok into Russia, to stick in the suitcase of some random intelligence agents daughter and cause collateral damage in one of their allies cities. Riiiiiighht.

Do you think that we'd be supplying the OPCW with samples and access to our labs if we were lying?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:52 am
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so British VX was used, but it wasn't us, yet Novichok was used but it can only be the Russian State? see! that logic is bollocks. It may well be the Russian state has committed a war crime on UK soil, but without fully transparent and independently Verified data what we have at the moment is a classic piece of cold-war propaganda. The Press love a good story and will run with the simplest easy to sell copy, rather than the truth that is usually a  murkier and dirty mix where no one can come out as a clear goody and baddy.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:53 am
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Because that means that some other country, with an axe to grind, would have had to develop their own research program and intelligence program to firstly 1) Steal the Russian nerve agent so that they knew which variant the Russians use and then 2) Copy it exactly. All without someone spotting it.

This isn't VX, there are hundreds of potential variants of Novichok.

Occams Razor etc etc etc

What isn't independent about getting the OPCW involved?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:55 am
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So you are suggesting that actually, this is a CIA hit and the Americans smuggled Novichok into Russia, to stick in the suitcase of some random intelligence agents daughter and cause collateral damage in one of their allies cities. Riiiiiighht.

I'm suggesting nothing of the sort, just that its not a clear cut as the damn Ruskies did it lets all get a hard-on for another cold war. There hasn't been a single case of the British Government of either major party, knee jerking into an escalation or military action or invasion that has hasn't later been proved to have been based on "tweaked" or just plain bollocks information. What makes you think that they have suddenly found a clarity not demonstrated in last 40 years or so?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 9:58 am
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Again, if we were going to tweak the intelligence would we not be refusing to get the OPCW involved?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:02 am
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This isn’t VX, there are hundreds of potential variants of Novichok.

there are multiple variant of the V series agent as well.  see again its not a case of Cinderella where on one shoe will fit a special little foot.

Im not saying its not Russia, but lets not get stampeded into a escalation without making sure that its not bollocks. Why the bloody hell are we spending a fortune with anti anthrax jabs for the armed forces? thats just pure theater and Gavin Williamson quoted the main worry as being attack from North Korea WTAF?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:04 am
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there are multiple variant of the V series agent as well.  see again its not a case of Cinderella where on one shoe will fit a special little foot.

All of which are documented and in the public domain of knowledge, especially the one that was used to off the Korean.

Why the bloody hell are we spending a fortune with anti anthrax jabs for the armed forces? thats just pure theater and Gavin Williamson quoted the main worry as being attack from North Korea WTAF?

Because anthrax is one of the easiest bioterror weapons to produce?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:05 am
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Again, if we were going to tweak the intelligence would we not be refusing to get the OPCW involved?

and yet we've already let the genie out of the bottle and declared its Russia, without waiting for independent verification, see its political theater rather than expedient diplomacy


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:06 am
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and yet we’ve already let the genie out of the bottle and declared its Russia, without waiting for independent verification, see its political theater rather than expedient diplomacy

Because by the time the OPCW get done with their side of the investigation, considering all of their bureaucracy, the momentum will have been lost to get action and support from our partners.

No one will give a shit in 1 month, let alone however long it takes the OPCW to get back to us.

And what is so bad about escalating with Russia anyway, they've been acting like a rogue state for the past decade.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:09 am
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I don't mean to seem overly cautious..

but with all the talk of May's promised team of social media manipulators recently, isn't it a little bit fishy that suddenly we have a new forum member in our midst with a deep knowledge of nerve agents, crowing for all he's worth about the Russians being baddies?

back to covert 101 for you spybot!!


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:14 am
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Much a I dislike May, I find her take on events a bit more believable than a bunch of internet consipracy theorists

Either this was a direct act by the Russian State against our country.

Or conceivably, the Russian government could have lost control of a military-grade nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others.

Either the Russians are murderous or incompetent.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:15 am
 dazh
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Jezzas busy making sure he doesn’t come as scarily close to being PM as he did last time

I read that piece. He says we should investigate and await the outcome based on actual evidence before taking any action which could be damaging. Bloody outrageous! Or perhaps he should jump on the jingoistic bandwagon of faux-outrage and start banging his war-drum?

Thing is, even if they did do it, what are we gonna do? We certainly aren't going to kick out Putin's billionaire mates or refuse the money they bring in, so instead we'll get rid of some minor ranking diplomats and engage in a 'who's the hardest' pissing competition which we'll inevitably lose. Schoolyard posturing pretending to be geopolitics. It's pretty pathetic.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:15 am
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About the closest I ever got to sneaky stuff was an interview at Pirbright, so no - I'm not.

My previous alias was killed off by the forum update.

We certainly aren’t going to kick out Putin’s billionaire mates or refuse the money they bring in

The thing with that is, is that they are usually in London because they are quite far from being Putins mate.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:16 am
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Because by the time the OPCW get done with their side of the investigation, considering all of their bureaucracy, the momentum will have been lost to get action and support from our partners.

No one will give a shit in 1 month, let alone however long it takes the OPCW to get back to us.

And what is so bad about escalating with Russia anyway, they’ve been acting like a rogue state for the past decade.

sounds more a regime change we're after then, with a not very firm footing which is why the government are running so quickly over the top of it.  that went well last time

and with regards to anthrax, yes its dead easy to make, but why prepare our soldiers, are we already going to war with an unkown enemy where the BTWC will be breached?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:16 am
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I think if I'm being rational, I believe there IS other 'proof' that it was Russia which the authorities have shared with allies and NATO and is sufficient for them, but which they cannot / will not / have not shared with us.

But i also agree with Taz, it's not as if we've been whiter that white with regard to making up or sexing up other 'proof' in the past few years, so when they say trust us, I do have a bit of a 'yeah, but' moment.


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:17 am
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and with regards to anthrax, yes its dead easy to make, but why prepare our soldiers, are we already going to war with an unkown enemy where the BTWC will be breached?

No, but who do you think will be first on scene to clear up if we suffer an anthrax terror attack like the Americans did in 2001?


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:19 am
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The British government could sen whatever they like form whatever source to the OPCW. I don't trust the British government because the lot of them have shown themselves to be serial liars on so many other issues. When there is an independant inquiry with some people worthy of trust it gets put under wraps for 50 years (Kelly).


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:22 am
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well we we'd better start with old videos about what to do in the case of nuclear war as well then, and then ban anyone with a funny eastern European accent and get that good old British tradition, the concentration camp back for anyone we think looks a bit "iffy in a famous five stylee"...hey at least it will give some of the plucky Brits employment after Brexit 🙂


 
Posted : 16/03/2018 10:23 am
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