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So, bickering children aside...
It seems TM is certain that Russia is to blame. Now what? What does she think we can actually do to make Russia think twice about doing this sort of stuff on British soil? What could we actually do?
Probably freezing bank accounts, limiting visas, sending home a few diplomats.
Yeah, that'll really scare 'em 😆
The acrid stench of tobacco is further amplified by the unmistakeable tinge of urine.
Can a tinge amplify a stench? Sounds a bit Jay Rayner-ish. Or Will Self.
Yeah, that’ll really scare ’em
Well, if the oligarchy who support Putin get their financial pips squeezed enough, they're not likely to be very happy with him.
Probably start looking around for a replacement...
For some reason the bit about the US being supportive has been dropped for the last news update.
Tillerson who supported the UK has been sacked by Trump !
Maybe that is why it is not in the news anymore.
Zokes, Russia doesn't believe in nuclear war any longer. There was an article a while back where one of their top brass pretty much scoffed at the idea of using nukes.The capability of ours that they were most scared of, was our light infantry. That might seem silly but the Russians seem to think that they can fight low level conflicts with western partners and not start a nuclear war.
I get the feeling that this is a Russian test of EU resolve as opposed to strictly a mesaage to Britain. The EU got lambasted by an ambassador over the Polonium incident
My guess is that if the EU do the same again, Putin will see it as a green light for further incursions into former Soviet states.
Zokes, you ask what we can really do? But lets say we started killing Russian mercenaries in Syria in retaliation, what could Putin really do?
Zokes, you ask what we can really do? But lets say we started killing Russian mercenaries in Syria in retaliation, what could Putin really do?
Start stationing the Russian troops in schools and hospitals. The Russians are far less squeamish than the west about that sort of thing, and rather good at media manipulaition to boot.
The problem with that is that we have 15 odd years of experience in waiting for the right opportunity to blow up Taliban members.
Also, I reckon if we were aggressive enough with our own propaganda - the Russians hiding behind women and children like cowards would be a pretty good propaganda coup.
Now if we were being really Machievellian we could use this incident to bait Russia into destabilising Eastern Europe further, which may or may not give us more wiggle room in the Brexit negotiations.
I was just using the express as a link to that video, that article is daft even for the express.
If Putin wanted to test the EU, he would be done it in Germany or Poland.
I don't think he needs to, apart from the French we are the only European country that comes close to having the capability of repelling Russian incursions. The Bundeswehr are a joke and Germany is obsessed with soft power whilst mainland Europe is even more reliant on Russian gas than us. I would say that the Russians want to deepen the divide between us (who they see as one of the strong links in the chain who have deep experience of fighting hybrid war/counter insurgency and the balls to actually exercise hard power) and the EU.
Europe may in the future have to choose between us and Moscow, if they choose the latter then only the French will defend them.
Seems Russia are being sensible about it and May is the one causing hysteria
Taken from the Guardian;
Russia’s ambassador to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), has accused the UK government of making “unfounded accusations” and “pumping hysteria” over the Salisbury poisoning.
In a letter to the OPCW following Theresa May’s statement that Russia has until midnight to explain how the Skripals were poisoned, Alexander Shulgin said:
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We remind our English colleagues that Russia and the United Kingdom are members of the OPCW ... We call upon them to abandon the language of ultimatums and threats and return to the legal field of the chemical convention, which allows us to resolve this kind of situation.
</div>
Shulgin claimed May’s ultimatum breached OPCW protocol. He added:
<div class="quoted__contents">
We would also like to emphasise that such explanations under the chemical weapons convention are provided to the requesting state party as soon as possible, but in any case no later than ten days after the request is received. In this regard, the ultimatum demands to provide information immediately are absolutely unacceptable.
We urge our British colleagues to save propaganda fervour and slogans for an unenlightened domestic audience.
There they may work, within the walls of the specialised international organisation, such as the OPCW, one must operate with facts and only with facts. Stop pumping hysteria, officially formalise your request to us to begin consultations in order to clarify the situation.
</div>
Seems Russia are being sensible about it
Well. Depends on whether they did it or not doesnt it?
Trying to kill someone and then saying you should be using this convention to complain isnt really being sensible but legalistic.
I am also not sure the OCPW was designed for dealing with assassinations as opposed to use in warfare.
But lets say we started killing Russian mercenaries in Syria in retaliation, what could Putin really do?
That’s not exactly the same thing, is it? An equivalent move would be to start offing people who we don’t like on Russian soil.
And I’ve heard the light infantry story before. Whilst some warm fuzzy national pride wants me to believe it, the reality of far superior numbers of Russian troops and armour would make short work of them. Regardless of boys-own war games, back to my question: I don’t think “send the infantry in” is on the list of options open to TM
All this waffle and diplomacy achieves nothing FFS, not only have the vodka swilling, red flag waving, gulag loving Russians (who barely smile in public) endangered our civilians with nerve agents in a squaddie town just a few miles from Her Majesty's world leading nerve agent facility, but they also inteferred in our media led decision to separate ourselves from our neighbours due to all the poor blighters seeking asylum and drowning in the mediterranean to flee a proxy war which was seeded by allied support of rebels as far back as 2006, (the rebels who went on to become ISIS (what happened to ISIS after Boris withheld that report on Terrorist funding anyhoo?) that and errr, sovereignty.
Anyway, as I've already said, the only sensible thing to do is a full scale thermonuclear attack on Russian civilians (and everything east of Israel for good measure)… if you’re gonna commit to trident, commit to it properly I say.
And if a lady's not up to the job, then maybe old Trumpy pants can vaporise the pee stains he left in Moscow...
Cuckoo 🤪
I am not sure if Russia is just being belligerent and threatening or if they really had nothing to do with it.
Now do I get to fire up the carrier and jets?
Oh, hang on... Can we wait a few years?
squaddie town
It's a city.
Oh, and it's not that either.
That’s not exactly the same thing, is it? An equivalent move would be to start offing people who we don’t like on Russian soil.
And I’ve heard the light infantry story before. Whilst some warm fuzzy national pride wants me to believe it, the reality of far superior numbers of Russian troops and armour would make short work of them. Regardless of boys-own war games, back to my question: I don’t think “send the infantry in” is on the list of options open to TM
They have a lot of conscripts, but not the resources to out ship loads of them to Syria. If we really really wanted to, we could put plenty of their mercenaries in body bags even if we didn't want to try to boot them out. The MODs funding problems pale in comparison to Russias.
However, I'm fairly sure Trump would love a fight to distract from his home issues and the Saudis and Israelis would love nothing more than to bomb Assad and his Iranian mates into the troposphere.
Still, yes, we should probably be more sensible - but using nerve agents on our soil has made me a bit crosseyed.
Bring back Blair and Bush. This shit wouldn't have happened under those two lunatics.
Bring back Blair and Bush. This shit wouldn’t have happened under those two lunatics.
Litvinenko was 2006. Bush and Blair were both still in office then.
The MODs funding problems pale in comparison to Russias.
Perhaps. But the MOD's resilience to its own casualties also pales by comparison. Short answer - it's not gonna happen. So, what's she going to do? Strongly worded letters seems to be where we're at currently. Putin really is an expert troll. I wonder what his STW pseudonym is.
Ingestible poisin vs a purpose made nerve agent? There's a massive difference between this and 2006.
2096 was little different to offing someone with hemlock.
Seems Russia are being sensible about it and May is the one causing hysteria
shit the paid russian troll are absolutely everywhere on the internet
I find it odd that a foreign power has decided to go around murdering people in the UK using a reasonably indiscriminant method and no one seems to be that bothered, would it garner more concern if they used drones?
Mind you, Putin can bring down an airliner and not much happens so why should he care, I mean , history has taught us that its perfectly fine not to do anything about leaders who bit by bit take advantage of others as no one stands up and say "enough is enough".
Ingestible poisin vs a purpose made nerve agent?
You mean “very rare and extremely difficult to detect radioactive poison vs very rare and extremely difficult to detect chemical poison”
MO is very similar, even down to the liberal view taken of the risk of collateral
I mean , history has taught us that its perfectly fine not to do anything about leaders who bit by bit take advantage of others as no one stands up and say “enough is enough”.
So what actions do you propose, and by whom?
Are you suggesting we get the RAF to bring down this evening’s Aeroflot flight from LHR to Moscow? Or start getting MI6 to off enemies on Russian soil? What’s the plan when Russia retaliates again? What does success look like in this scenario where we take punitive acts of revenge?
So what actions do you propose, and by whom?
Hard to say and I reckon that diddly squat will happen but one area that we could look at is to increase our dependencies on renewable/alternative energy so that we can at least stop bankrolling all this faff, and that includes the Europeans.
@Junkyard - Calling me a Russian troll? How has May not exacerbated things by setting deadlines, what the hell is she going to do against Putin other than expel diplomats and take us out of the world cup...i have no love for either, May and Putin that is
Its so far an enquiry, Russia are fully within their right to request samples of the agent. They may be fully aware of it and did carry out the attack but if they also know of a batch being stolen/sold and haven't told anyone due to embarrassment(?) but who knows. we'll probably never know
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43394699
Well May is getting ready with her response... lets see how hard she hits
So, strongly worded letter it is....
She must have strong evidence to accuse Russia like that. But at the same time, only sending home 23 intelligence diplomats is not a lot.
Nah, but I would imagine that the deal also includes gained intelligence of U.K. citizens off them before they catch the next plane home.. she’s got history like that has that woman.
only sending home 23 intelligence diplomats is not a lot.
It is - it is 40% of the staff, highest expulsion since Cold War and described by former Moscow correspondents as a Big ****ing Deal
You mean “very rare and extremely difficult to detect radioactive poison vs very rare and extremely difficult to detect chemical poison”
Polonium has as much in common with WMD nerve agents as hemlock does, it's mechanism of action is different, it's lethality is different and it's area of effect is different. One is banned under international conventions, the other is not. One is easy to aerosolize in amounts that can kill, the other would be much more of a headache, less lethal and has never been done before.
Let's not forget that there is also likely to be more Novichok out there, in the hands of someone in the UK. That is a lot scarier prospect than someone running around with Polonium.
She must have strong evidence to accuse Russia like that.
Even Wikipedia knows that the (alleged) nerve agent was made by Russia. They do have a very distinctive signature. We used to make various organo-phophate precursors (they're used a lot in pesticides) and the combinations, even within bulk pesticide manufacture are relatvely easy to trace back to specific batches, countries etc
Even Wikipedia knows that the (alleged) nerve agent was made by Russia. They do have a very distinctive signature. We used to make various organo-phophate precursors (they’re used a lot in pesticides) and the combinations, even within bulk pesticide manufacture are relatvely easy to trace back to specific batches, countries etc
Which unfortunately, probably makes Corbyns position entirely untenable.
I bet England players are not looking forward to the WC . Fans would be crazy to travel there .
I really wouldn't want to be an England fan wandering around Nizhny Novgorod this summer. Is anyone seriously contemplating going?
I’m most disappointed by way STW has under reacted to this while thing.
Have we lost some big hitters in the refit?
I found this article which was mentioned on a Guardian page. Definitely seems like you don't want to upset the Kremlin, all rather worrying really.
I'm under no illusions of Putin (or any world leader) being an angel, but this blog certainly raises some interesting points:
in a squaddie town
Ah, that’ll be Amesbury or Tilshead, then, both of which are on Salisbury Plain, and are both garrison towns.
Unlike Salisbury, which is a city, and has no military connections as such.
It is in Wiltshire, though, and Salisbury Plain gets its name from the city, so an understandable error.
That blog seems to have the sort of conspiracy key-words that gets him all moist and short of breath, I’m minded to give it minimum credence just because Jive Bunnykins thinks it shows we’re the ones up to no good, making out the poor Russians are the fall guys.
Quality insight there... regardless, go on a night out in Salisbury and you'll bump into plenty of squaddies... it's the hub that serves all the satellite towns.
Remember from when I used to visit some mates who were seconded to Boscombe Down... there's military installations dotted about all over the joint around there
The worrying thing is that as far as we can tell our government dont have a scooby how this poison was adminsitered, where it came from, where it was made, who & how it was brought into the country, when and where & by whom the skirpals were exposed to it........
Assuming Russia did this, they seem to be running rings around us
[OldSkool Forum Tongue in Cheek] What if ISIS did it and are laughing to themselves as the Christian Nations are working their way towards mutually assured destruction, just as more weapons are secured for the Wahhabi faithful via Saudi Arabia [/Oldskool Forum Tongue in Cheek]
More likely a concotion of Tim Bell(end) mind, unless Putin snuck in in disguise and administered it himself for the bants
Ah, that’ll be Amesbury or Tilshead, then, both of which are on Salisbury Plain, and are both garrison towns.
Unlike Salisbury, which is a city, and has no military connections as such.
It is in Wiltshire, though, and Salisbury Plain gets its name from the city, so an understandable error.
That blog seems to have the sort of conspiracy key-words that gets him all moist and short of breath, I’m minded to give it minimum credence just because Jive Bunnykins thinks it shows we’re the ones up to no good, making out the poor Russians are the fall guys.
Even if we did release the proof, the Russians would keep on denying it. There was a pretty funny post over at ARRSE.
"I can't help feeling it would be (with the same kid, chocolate in hand, and around his mouth)
UK did you eat the chocolate
RU We don't like chocolate.
UK Did you eat the chocolate, we can see it all around your mouth.
RU Theres no chocolate here.
UK did you eat the chocolate.
RU we can't have, it belonged to someone else.
UK Did you eat the chocolate, half of it is in your hand.
RU thats not a pic of us.
UK did you eat the chocolate.
RU The Germans like chocolate so it cant be us
UK Did you eat the chocolate.
RU You have no proof.
UK It's still in your hand.
RU we need proof.
UK Look at your, hand, its there.
RU weve looked at ONE of our hands, it's not there.
UK Look at your other hand.
RU Dr David Kelly was murdered, that means we didn't eat the chocolate.
UK Did you eat the chocolate.
RU the Brazilians put it in our hand.
UK Did you eat the chocolate.
RU OK, it was the CIA put it there, the world is against us.
UK Did you eat the chocolate.
RU it can't have been us, there is no proof.
UK (has the brown item tested, it's Russian chocolate). It's chocolate, did you eat it.
RU Just because it's chocolate anyone could have eaten it, you are just saying it's us because of Brexit.
UK It's chocolate, it's in your hand, around you mouth and half is missing.
RU an imaginary country could sink ships in the Gulf.........ergo we didnt eat it."
Polonium has as much in common with WMD nerve agents as hemlock does, it’s mechanism of action is different, it’s lethality is different and it’s area of effect is different. On<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">e is banned under international conventions, the other is not. One is easy to aerosolize in amounts that can kill, the other would be much more of a headache, less lethal and has never been done before.</span>
Both Po and this nerve agent kill, both are only obtainable by (very) militarily advanced nations, both are very difficult to diagnose unless you really know what you're looking for. Both have apparently been used by the Russian state to kill on British soil, regardless of the potential for collateral of an either civilian or political nature. I'm not quite sure what hair you're irately trying to split here, but it's a pretty fine one.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">ivehoneyjive
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">Quality insight there…
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How would you know?
My first contribution to the thread I've been following with an amused smile. Much like the rest of the world's media. There's currently a spoof on Europe 1 with a Russian complaining about British food. It seems the rest of the world;
-realises that Russia isn't the only nation with this poison, and what if it wasn't Vlad, who was it? I've though of a few possibles but won't insult them without proof (which is perhaps what May shouldn't have done). I don't know if it was part of the humour but Europe 1 said May needed 8 minutes to make up her mind Russia is guilty.
-doesn't seem much bothered about the death of a Russian double agent (occupational hazard)
-finds Britain's reaction disproportionate and sanctions laughable given the UK's consumption of Russian gas - go on, cut that off to spite your face.
-a "diplomatic war" over a dead spy with excessive nationalism rising on both sides, that if the Russians interviewed on Europe 1 is anything to go by isn't doing Vlad any harm at all in Russia
-when Britain, France and the USA killed its citizens gone over to the enemy in Iraq and Syria the medias rejoiced (jihad John for example).
Edit: May is now getting absolutely hammered on Europe 1, after an analysis of her weak possition as PM she is being accused of hypocrisy for covering up cases as home secretary she is now reopening as PM. She's a laughing stock. And all this is the context of Brexit in which May has already irritated many of her best allies
Except the uk isn’t reliant on Russia’s gas unlike a lot of the EU nations especially Germany, so suits them to cozy upto Russia and down play the incident, so we can’t expect any real support from the EU then. The nerve agent identified was developed by Russia and Russia only. Nobody else can make it or has it. So if they didn’t carry out the attack then they supplied the agent and it suits the EU to mock the UK and make May look week in light of Brexit negotiations.
So let them laugh it up. We didn’t mock the French after their recent terrorist attacks so happy to take the moral highground.
You're comparing with the Bataclan masacre of a large number of civilians with the killing of Russina spy by persons unknown. You're stooping low Wobbliscott, very low, so yes I'm very happy to take the "moral highground", ****. Diplomacy at it's worst, just like May and Johnson gratuitously piss people off.
" Nobody else can make it or has it" you believe that, really? Did you believe 45mins to WMDs too?
As for the gas:
"A Centrica spokesman said he was confident that the subsidiary, Gazprom Marketing & Trading, would be able to fulfil its contract: “Russia provides about 30 per cent of Europe’s gas imports of about 440bcm a year,” he said. “Without Russian volumes, Europe’s supply and demand balance would change significantly, impacting the ability of the UK to import materially from continental Europe, or impacting the cost of doing so.” "
Edukator thinks the EU is all-knowing, benevolent and disinterested while the U.K. is the opposite. I’m shocked.
-doesn’t seem much bothered about the death of a Russian double agent (occupational hazard)
Well, that’s OK then!
Airtragic - read again, I make no reference to the EU in either of my two posts on this thread. Feel free to have a go at me but try to attack what I've written rather than putting words in my mouth.
I took Europe 1/mainstream European opinion/EU opinion as interchangeable. And your posts in the EU thread as background, many of which I broadly agree with. But I do think that you and several other posters are an inversion of jambalaya; you can see no wrong in the European mainland’s actions and no right in the UK’s. In this particular case, what’s a PM to do? You suggest it’s disproportionate, do we just accept other countries bumping people off in our streets because they sell us some gas?
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-realises that Russia isn’t the only nation with this poison, and what if it wasn’t Vlad, who was it? I’ve though of a few possibles but won’t insult them without proof (which is perhaps what May shouldn’t have done). I don’t know if it was part of the humour but Europe 1 said May needed 8 minutes to make up her mind Russia is guilty.
Come on, enlighten us, I could do with a good laugh at a conspiracy theory nutcase. And really - Europe 1 had a stopwatch running inside May's head? ffs why even bother repeating such bollocks. As for how long it did take - I would actually hope not long to be highly suspicious of Russian involvement and if your chemical weapon lab experts then strongly link to a Soviet produced nerve agent I would expect that to reinforce your suspicions enough to give them an ultimatum to admit guilt or explain how such a nerve agent ended up outside their control
-doesn’t seem much bothered about the death of a Russian double agent (occupational hazard)
Are we talking about Sergei Skripal (he's still alive)? What about his daugher's condition or the policeman's? what about the general risk to the first responders and public in the area?
-finds Britain’s reaction disproportionate and sanctions laughable given the UK’s consumption of Russian gas – go on, cut that off to spite your face.
In reality there's not a lot Britain can do, everyone knows that (including the UK government) but you obviously have to do something (and I wonder what Putin's response would have been if the situation were reversed, are you suggesting he'd do nothing? lol)
-a “diplomatic war” over a dead spy with excessive nationalism rising on both sides, that if the Russians interviewed on Europe 1 is anything to go by isn’t doing Vlad any harm at all in Russia
It's not designed to, Russia is an autocratic state, it's media is tightly controlled and it's population is fed far more state-controlled content than we get. Russian people are also quite nationalistic due to their history etc. (nothing inherently wrong with that but makes it easier for Putin to get away with what he does at home and not just abroad). I don't think May is expecting Putin to lose the coming totally rigged Russian 'election' as a result of this...
-when Britain, France and the USA killed its citizens gone over to the enemy in Iraq and Syria the medias rejoiced (jihad John for example).
That was in a war zone, whether it's morally right or not is another question but the scenarios are very different. He was also engaged in murderous acts himself, I don't think Sergei Skripal was beheading Russian citizens in Salisbury - maybe Europe 1 told you different though?
Well, that worked about as well as anything else on this forum
They’re ok if they don’t take the weird green sugar 😉
Oooooh yeah.. Smell the jingo on the breath of the frothing public.. Taste it in their sweaty outrage
rawr... inglun
Well on the poison, there was a report with a graphic to show how it's transported as two harmless sutances and then mixed to make the active poison as required. Now if a TV channel can provide that amount of information about a substance it isn't particularly secret or exclusive.
Chose from the 14 or more now being quoted for the dead - my comment was general not specific. I'm really not bothered when double agents get killed. I have a low regard for spies and even lower for double agents. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
So who is killing all these Russians? If it's Russians as Britain seems to assume then at least some of them are murderers guilty of killing their fellow spies and it really doen't much matter how. So my comparison with jihad John holds.
You don't "have to do" something. And if you do do something it should be after a suffient weight of evidence has be accumulated against someone shown to be acting under orders of the Russian state. Accusing Russia after a few minutes deliberation is naive. It might be Russia or it might equally be someone trying to stir up shit between the UK and Russia. Until that possibility is eliminated May should have a less conflictual approach. She making a fool of herself.
If you check out the Briexit thread you'll find a majority of STW contributors consider Boris a serial liar and manipulator and May an ineffectual hypocrit. The rest of the world it not blind to their lack of integrity, incompetance and inability to make sensible policy based on good judgement. Laughing stock.
Considering a lot of Russians have been killed in the past few years without any coverage or investigation, it is a bit suspicious that the PM Is going all out on this occasion.
I have no doubt that EU members will give their support to the UK.
Putin doesn't just view the killing of Russians as acceptable, don't forget the poor souls on flight MH17 that were killed just for being on a passenger jet. With nerve agents being used in a city full off civilians then something should be done.
Well on the poison, there was a report with a graphic to show how it’s transported as two harmless sutances and then mixed to make the active poison as required. Now if a TV channel can provide that amount of information about a substance it isn’t particularly secret or exclusive.
Perhaps that’s the unsecret bit? I could probably have explained that many years ago when I was a Chemistry undergrad. I’d imagine the fingerprinting lies in trace elements.
suffient weight of evidence has be accumulated against someone shown to be acting under orders of the Russian state.
You are never going to get to legal “proof” in international affairs. They’ll just deny it, and I can’t see Vlad turning up at the Old Bailey. Nobody is being locked up here, we’re just sending some diplomats/spies back to the motherland. Perhaps the lack of absolute proof, only strong suspicion, is the reason the Govt aren’t seizing assets etc?
Putin doesn’t just view the killing of Russians as acceptable, don’t forget the poor souls on flight MH17 that were killed just for being on a passenger jet. With nerve agents being used in a city full off civilians then something should be done.
TBH I saw that one (MH17) as a cock-up at the tactical level rather than a deliberate act at the time. Case of mistaken identity I thought, it was hard to see what it gained Russia.
From the country that's made 26 James Bond films the lack of imagination when it comes to plausible ways in which this substance might get into the hands of someone not acting for the Russian state surprises me, and that assuming Russia is the only state to have ever made the stuff and that it can be finger printed. If 14 Russians have been killed that's a possible source. Maybe the Russians didn't kil them and Russian spies are being target by some other organisation for some reason. Fact is very often stranger than fiction - dig out your cold-war spy novels for inspiration!
But seriously,, pointing fingers prematurely is stupid and dangerous.
Surely this nerve agent cant "only" be created in Russia, have i missed something? If another state got their hands on the exact agent back in the 70's, UK/US/another country to say perhaps work on a counter measure for it or understand it. Wouldn't they have an identical match of what Russia had therefore a matching chemical fingerprint.
Cant even believe I'm typing this conspiracy related nonsense, sure this was on Strike Back
in which this substance might get into the hands of someone not acting for the Russian state
They really ought to have noticed if some has gone missing!
We do have countermeasures for nerve agent, it’s Just that you need to be expecting to be attacked with it!
And it's out of chrachter. When Britian wants shot of someone they commit suicide (Kelly) and when Russia wants shot of someone they usually commit suicide too. A radioactive isotope is one thing (if it really was Russia) but a nerve agent raises the stakes in that it breaks international laws. If you were Vlad would you do that? When it's so easy to kill people in so many other ways.
Do you think Russia would admit it if it had lost some of this substance?
The antidote is only effective if administered in less than 4 minutes according to local news.
Its a Brexitfail distraction, no more, no less.
Good to see France coming into line after their initial misstep.