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And specifically, is the heat output required from a stove significantly different from the output required for radiators in the same room?
Most online BTU calculators state a heat output of 2.5kw required for our living room, but calculators for stove only say 10kw is required, other than the Charnwood stove site which also states 2.5kw would suffice.
So now I'm confused.
1. Why would heat output required from a stove be different than from central heating in any given Room?
2. Why the significant variance between calculators?
Don’t know, but if you have larger than 5kW you’ll have to add ventilation.
Unless it’s a truly massive room, huge wood burners are a pain.
Most burners are rated at 5kw (unless it’s tiny or huge) as, as stated above, they need additional ventilation over 5kw. In a domestic setting, 5kw it usually suitable.
No different to radiator size really. Definitely don't over size, you'll not be able to run a hot enough fire for a clean burn.
We have a charnwood C-eight, (8kw obs) which works well in 70m2 open plan. Even then we open doors into the hall to let heat into the rest of the house after a couple of hours running. Even more so this winter as we're all wearing more layers and thicker jumpers.
Also, we chose the C-eight has it is room sealed, all combustion air is ducted in to the back of it from outside. No additional ventilation required.
No additional ventilation required.
Which is good in one respect but the air you're drawing in directly from the outside will be much colder than the air drawn in from the room.
That cold air needs more heating and actually reduces the stove efficiency!
Thanks all, it is a big space (32sqm) and being old Victorian building it's high ceilings and no insulation so definitely needs decent heat, but having had a stove in our old place (not fitted by us) that was too powerful, I don't want to go too big, and some of the calculators seem ridiculous. Don't really understand the reasons for such big discrepancies
Our sitting room is 28sq m but standard height. A 5kw log burner is perfect.
64sqm kitchen/diner/snug with an 8Kw Clearview in the snug end.
Probably the right size for us*.... I can run it hard but also slow it down happily enough once the area is up to temp.
At no point have I thought I could do with a bigger stove.
A bigger stove would use a LOT of fuel!
* Top exit flue which gives off more heat than a rear exit straight into the wall.
OP: I'd be amazed if a 5Kw didn't do the job.
In fact before I knocked the(24sqm) snug into the kitchen the 8Kw stove was def too much - it could make the paint on the fire surround bubble!
The correct answer is “no wood burner”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/27/wood-burning-stove-environment-home-toxins
I got a 10kw in a double height lounge diner. Fitter measured air vol and other methods of heat, big s facing windows. Got it spot on. It's also free standing with exposed chimney so radiant warmth is lovely.
If it proved too big I d just cut some vermiculite panels to make the effective burn area smaller. I cut my own wood so don't want to make extra work cutting up small pieces.
Ask a few suppliers for what they reckon before committing.
We included all the space that the fire could reach. Rather than just the volume of the room.
So we've got 7kW in a 30sqm room. (normal ceiling height)
But we have open plan through to hall and landing (another 15-18 sqm), and we are generally an open door household, So it heats this whole level of the house. Total about 100sqm.
5kw will do but if the layout means you can get heat to the rest of the house then bigger can work well too.
40 ish SQM through lounge-dinner open to the study area and semi open to kitchen and hall in a poorly insulated 30s semi here. One 5kw stove heats the whole house not just that space, down to about 7C outside. Then I light the second 5kw stove and heat the whole house down to about -5C. My layout allows heat out and to the rest of the house well but I can assist the movement with a fan or two blowing the cool air towards the heat.
Which is good in one respect but the air you’re drawing in directly from the outside will be much colder than the air drawn in from the room.
That cold air needs more heating and actually reduces the stove efficiency!
As opposed to the same volume of air drawn in through air brick or whatever, making cold draft in the room before feeding the stove? Plus, by the time air gets into the combustion chamber, the air supply channels in the stove have heated it to hundreds of degrees C.
No really, the correct response is what b33k34 linked to above. Horrid things.
The correct answer is “no wood burner”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/27/wood-burning-stove-environment-home-toxins/blockquote >
I'll bear that in mind when the power goes out (again) when it's 20 below zero.
Only twice this year so far.
the air supply channels in the stove have heated it to hundreds of degrees C.
And where has the heat required to do that come from?
I could have put a dedicated air supply on my Clearview but when I talked to them they actually advised against it!
Monbiot is essentially a cult propagandist at this point. Most of what he's spouting is utter tripe.
Even the picture at the head of his garbage article is a stove with doors wide open, the utter bellend.
OP, as above, tend towards just big enough rather than too big.
A really good modern stove with heated airwash intake will allow extremely efficient clean burning without having to burn hard all the time.
Parkray Aspect 5 is a current favourite of mine, top end performance with middle of the road price.
Other things to consider are stove material affects method of heat dissipation, chamber size dictating log size and that most stove manufacturers self certify their Kw rating based on whatever they like but target 5Kw to simplify fitting.
Examples of this are we have a steel Burley as it is quick to warm and emit heat in the day room and it has a 5Kw rating with a chamber twice the size of the 4.5Kw Jotul in the evening room that is cast so that it radiates its heat for longer.
The Burley chamber is also larger than a friend's 6Kw stove.
Most firewood suppliers work on 10-12" logs, 6-8" logs for midget burners are often a special order as they are a pain in processors and more time consuming if manual handling.
Next question is what size log shed.
Worse, when I shut down a stove to trickle some heat through the house at night, the chimney released a cloud of black smoke and soot
From the linked article. This is exactly what you shouldn’t do with a stove. It’s amazing he can research how ‘harmful’ it was without first researching how to actually use it correctly.
He could have just bought this wonderful book 😉
15kw Coalbrookdale Severn here. Massive cast iron red hot lump of a thing.
Monbiot is essentially a cult propagandist at this point. Most of what he’s spouting is utter tripe.
Even the picture at the head of his garbage article is a stove with doors wide open, the utter bellend
I'm interested as we have a fireplace and chimney that could easily take a stove, but recent articles on their impact on health and environment have put me off. If you say he's spouting tripe (and ignoring that the picture editor may have chosen a bad example) what is the balanced view, what do I need to read?
Is Chris Whitty also a cult propagandist?
Monbiot is essentially a cult propagandist at this point. Most of what he’s spouting is utter tripe.
What did he say that's incorrect?
What did he say that’s incorrect?
Hard to tell when he has less credibility than the sun newspaper.
I believe that was his point as oppose to his content....although since you asked he does seem somewhat incompetent and untrained in the use of the items of which he writes about - which even if the sentiment is correct further undermines his articles credibility.
Basically dear Deirdre could have written stoves iz bad ok and it would have carried more weight than anything monbiot has to say.
Back to the op. I've a 7kw stove in here. It's a 5m x 3m room if you shut the door it's unbearably hot.....but we never do and it heats the house nicely more so than the amount of oil we could afford to pump into the boiler anyway.
TBH, reading stuff like this Monbiot article (and others, and this thread and similar) just shows bow little many people know about how to use their stoves effectively, or what constitutes good wood to burn.
And probably how low the "minimum standard" is for installations.
Smoke coming into the room, not if it's burning properly, and has a functional chimney.
Slow burn over night, not in this day and age.
Fitting them in modern (or not modern!) houses in built up areas with reliable electricity (or gas supplies).
Should start banning them, or making them subject to much stricter planning rules.
Thanks all, think I'm clear on size now.
The stove v no stove debate has been playing in my mind all along too so saves me starting another topic to have it here too 😉
Need to get the stove quotes and central heating quotes in and compare the options. One thing for sure, I don't want another bloody freezing winter like this one.
Basically dear Deirdre could have written stoves iz bad ok and it would have carried more weight than anything monbiot has to say.
Okay - forget about Monbiot - what about the Chief Medical Officer? Tell us whay you disagree with, specifically, in his analysis.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/chief-medical-officers-annual-report-2022-air-pollution
Politecameraaction.
Did I say he was wrong.
Let's not forget about monbiot because the point of my post went over your head completely. The post was about the irrelevancy of monbiot and his uncredibility as a source.
Not once did I say he was wrong but you keep banging that nail with a turnip.
The post was about the irrelevancy of monbiot and his uncredibility as a source.
Why is he irrelevant in this case and why is he uncred.... Why is he not credible?
So he has no credibility but everything he said was correct? I'm not following this line of thought either.
The gist of his article is not solely that stoves are bad from a health and environment standpoint but also that he feels guilty for having installed them. On that line, anyone here feel the same, any regrets or fears about using them? It's hard to admit making a costly error, but have you (made one, I mean)
Another who hasn't read the article I see.
Edit - not Jon.
Who, me? I've read it. Several times now and still don't get your point. Can you make it clearer.
Summary.
Needed to make decisions about heating his house.
Other technology wasn't available or was very expensive so choice came to wood or gas.
Wanted to uncouple from fossil fuels so went for wood, using local supply that he then had qualms over.
Further, (and as above may be due to incorrect practices) found that the stoves were exacerbating coughs and asthma.
Then found out from other sources that pollution of small particles in particular was far worse than realised.
Now feels guilty, and doesn't use them.
Thinks their use and sales should be banned where possible with help given in cases where options are limited.
Would make a different decision today as other tech more available, even feels a good gas boiler option preferable if used sparingly.
- fair precis?
A 5kw should do it. We have a Chesneys Salisbury 5 which I can’t fault. Saying that if I had to buy another stove it would be a Clock Sudbury. Reasons being that spare parts such as fire bricks are a lot cheaper plus it’s 100% British made.
As far as pollution goes. We’re all doomed anyway so you may as well be doomed and warm. Just don’t burn any thing nasty like tyres or mdf. Keep to locally sourced dry(under 20% moisture content)hardwoods. Ash die back is rife currently so there’s plenty of wood about. Tree surgeons are busy.
We’re all doomed anyway so you may as well be doomed and warm.
So you'd buy again as opposed to going for an alternative that'll also keep you warm but in a less doomy way? I'll admit, the idea of a fire in the living room, dog curled up in front is a lot more enticing than an ASHP humming in the garden, but......
Just don’t burn any thing nasty like tyres or mdf.
Isn't the point that even the nice stuff is nasty? Are there any (reliable) articles countering the Carrington or Whitty ones i can read?
In that link with the chief medical officers report, I'm assuming the pollution figures shown are based on what each source outputs at its location, rather than the total pollution output? For example, electric heating is shown as zero, which makes sense as if your electric radiators are smoking, then you've got real problems, but that zero figure doesn't take into account any pollution from the actual creation of the electricity you use? With a fair bit of our electricity being generated by burning gas, I'd expect the actual pollution figures to be higher than zero???
I would definitely buy another log burner. One of the best purchases we’ve ever made. Can have the central heating set to 16c which means it hardly ever comes on. We can burn a few small dry logs and get the living room up to 24c where it’ll stay nice and warm for hours. I do buy wood from a local supplier most of it is from Ash dieback. Plus I get some free wood from Facebook marketplace, usually cherry or apple trees that people chop down in their gardens.
Basically dear Deirdre could have written stoves iz bad ok and it would have carried more weight than anything monbiot has to say.
OK, so it's a shoot the messenger thing.
Is Chris Whitty also a cult propagandist?
Nope, the Guardian journo who wrote the clickbait is though. The headline of that article and the content of the CMO report are miles apart.
It's a shame really, I used to rely on the guardian as a good source of grown up reporting. Like every other rag now though, they rely on clicks to survive. They've jumped on the fake news clickbait style of the trash papers with gusto.
Who knows what the carrington guys beef is, maybe he's paid by someone to spew this junk journalism, but more likely is the simple explanation that he has a neighbour who burns pallets, has a short chimney, and has wound him up to the point of raging against it.
The stove industry alliance on the other hand, was very positive about the CMO report, because it's a sensible, balanced and truthful. Chris Whitty doesn't need to search desperately for clicks and shares to survive.
All that said, it's clear that burning solid fuel isn't without pollution problems. The low hanging fruit should be dealt with first.
Open fires in towns and cities, ban it now. No brainer.
Open fires everywhere else, ban shortly after.
Scrap / phase out older stoves. Modern stoves are part of the solution, rather than the problem.
Target those burning wet wood. If a neighbour complaint is made, then check their woodpile for moisture. Impose fines or whatever if necessary. Never going to be policed though, there's not enough to deal with actual current crime.
Realistically, it's a process of education. Education is hard and takes ages.
Most of the Monibot hate is down to thde fact he writes things people don't want to hear.
When a lot of people hear a powerful voice, backed by science, talk about stuff they like that is actually harming them - like smoking, for example - they lose their shit and shoot the messenger rather than look at their own choices.
There's no doubt that wood burners are really really bad for you. 750 times more particulate emissions per burner than a Euro6 diesel car.
Consider getting a gas one that looks like a wood burner? Or don't. But love him or loathe him, Monibot has highlighted the science that has been done to give you the tools to protect your own health, should you want to.
Modern stoves are part of the solution, rather than the problem.
The best stoves burning the best fuel are part of the problem.
I’m interested as we have a fireplace and chimney that could easily take a stove, but recent articles on their impact on health and environment have put me off. If you say he’s spouting tripe (and ignoring that the picture editor may have chosen a bad example) what is the balanced view, what do I need to read?
@theotherjonv some reading here for balance
Balance from Stove Industry Alliance!!! I like you idea of balance
Should also read the tobacco industry's research showing that smoking cigarettes is good for you...
Since no one commented, I do suggest the book I linked to earlier. Not only does it teach you how to get the best out of your wood and stove it also talks about this issue and the extremely large amount of research done in Scandinavia relating to it.
TLDR wood causes some particulate pollution especially when stoves are used inefficiently. In lots of Scandinavia there simply isn’t another option so education and more research into more efficient burning is very important to them.
Simply living causes pollution so choose wisely. I do agree a ban in cities would be a good thing. Had I still lived there with other options I wouldn’t have installed a stove. Where I am now I have electric or wood. I use both carefully.
With a fair bit of our electricity being generated by burning gas, I’d expect the actual pollution figures to be higher than zero???
Gas produces nothing like the particulates that burning wood does, and gas power stations tend not to be located in populated areas where people would breathe it in. Pollution tends to be a catch all term but green house gases and particulate matter are very different issues, and often at odds with each other e.g. moving away from diesel cars to stop health problems but using petrol cars which produce more CO2