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With our second orthogonal blue VW turd having decided to call it a day in the engine availability stakes, I'm on the lookout for a replacement. It has to be able to carry up to 7 people and their luggage in relative comfort, practically anywhere in Europe. As a proposition the Caravelle was ideal, it's just built by complete morons from leftover bits of various VW production runs. At least this one hasn't set itself on fire, yet. So what should I be looking at?
We've a Tourneou Custom on hire while ours is dragged back from Spain & it's hideous, with a ride that would make a cement mixer sick. So bad in fact, that the wife TXTd me on the school run to say that she wouldn't drive it any more & was going to steal the Giulia from now on, despite it not really accommodating three kids.
I like the look of the space tourer / traveller / vivaro, but hear bad things about how they drive. I also like the look of a Merc V-class, just the price makes me wince. What else is out there? JDM of various sort (shudders), KIA iGiveUp (nein danke)?
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Galaxy? Or seat equivalent?
Shalhambraxy isn't big enough: with the rear seats up the boot's practically full. We looked at one when small_Fiat#3 came along after working out the Kodiaq's "7" seats could only accommodate child seats in two of them.
xl berlingo/whatever the vauxhall and pug versions are called
grand tourneo connect.
there are a few american options, depending on age/budget - the voyager is massive inside.
the new hyundai staria looks interesting, but I don't think its coming over here.
Sounds like you’re looking for a crew van rather than an MPV, so have you looked at the Nissan NV300?
You may shudder at JDM but they do excellent roomy people carriers (actually designed for people, who might want things like opening windows) with nice quiet, emissions compliant petrol engines.
Hyundai i800 is worth a look too, the older one is hideous but it got a facelift around 2018 and looks rather smart now.
The Japanese make brilliant big vans- maybe an Elgrand or an Alphard? If you stick to the common imports then parts and support are good (my daily's a JDM import and parts availability is no harder than UK, just sometimes slightly slower). The Elgrand E51's a brilliant thing, though, the engine/drivetrain choices are a little bit insane.
Galaxy is kind of disappointingly small isn't it. The front end and driver's cabin take up half the car.
Most of the jdm stuff is fairly poorly packaged and no bigger inside than a galaxy. I'd be amazed if any of the usual suspects really have room for 7 people plus luggage that the op is after
Toyota Proace Verso if it's reliability you're after - I don't own one, that's just my assumption being Toyota. No idea if there's older versions around, but the current one looks smart: https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/proace-verso/
Maybe I'm accustomed to a hard ride(!) but I drive a Transit Custom double-cab and don't find it bad at all. But my other vehicle is a 15yr old silly-low Vauxhall coupe on coilovers, so my references are somewhat worthless.
As above, sounds like you want a van. So either suck up having a van, find an MPV that can take 3 seats in the middle or find a way to carry less crap.
with nice quiet, emissions compliant petrol engines.
You forgot horrifically inefficient. I looked at a Honda that made my bus look good and that's a brick on wheels. 3l V engines are not cheap to run.
That said, they are a good package.
not good news about your 'velle. Disaster! We're on our second in 8years, couldn't live without one.
If we had to, it would be the long Merc V-classe with the 4 wheel drive thing (whatever merc call it). It's 'different' to a VW. Driving position lower, better handling (more car like), but not quite as flexible inside (love the rails in the 'velle). Second hand prices seem better value than a T6 (well, they did 1.5yrs ago) though I guess it will depreciate more.
We have a couple of friends who have them, rate them highly. + you can get molgrips as your very own Merc specialist mechanic 🙂
Toyota Proace Verso if it’s reliability you’re after – I don’t own one, that’s just my assumption being Toyota.
Identical to the Peugeot/Citroen/Opel/Vauxhall ones. Same engines, same interiors, made on the same assembly lines, different badge.
Might help: https://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/what-car-for-mountain-biking/
After I wrote this I drove a hire Vivaro for 1000 miles. I don't recommend it. Really uncomfortable seats in the front - the passenger ones especially are basically L shaped, and very hard, the driver's seat has a tiny bit of adjustment but is basically still an L. Maybe it's better in the ones that don't have a bulkhead, but it was enough to cross it off my list. Also, the heating/cooling was crap - it cycled around the temperature required, going hotter than or colder than, but never the actual temperature wanted. This was a brand new van with almost no miles on the clock, so not a case of it being worn out/broken.
New shape Vivaro is the same as a Toyota Proace, Peugeot Expert and Citroen Despatch. All the same design, engines, gearbox, etc - small differences in spec but they're the same vans.
New NV300 (if you can find one) is the same as the Renault Trafic and Fiat Talento. Similar also to the previous Vivaro. All of these come in a 5 or 6 seat crew van with a bulkhead behind the rear seats. Or a 9 seater minibus. Terrible fuel economy and emissions for all of them.
Ah bugger, that shows how good my knowledge about vans other than VW and Ford is. I didn't realise Toyota had gone in with all the others for a shared van. Not sure if that's good for the others or bad for Toyota (with prejudiced thoughts on reliability fully active)
Yeah , it’s our second velle in 4 years. Truly transformative vehicles - especially as we have to kart around increasingly immobile in-laws.
The first one lunched its head gasket after a string of small fires, electrical gremlins and mechanical misadventures about a week before being traded in. I thought “well it was heavily scened by the last owner, I can’t believe a brand new one would be bad.” How wrong can you be? This one is 22months old, has done 25k, has now properly failed to proceed twice and pulls to the left on British roads to such an extent that my wife and I both needed to get checked out for chest pains.
V class does seem to tick a lot of boxes. I suspect a LWB would be ok: the XLWB is massive. Can’t get 4matic in the uk anymore.
My cousin had this dilemma when child 5 appeared and the Zafira was too small. She got a Hyundai i800 as VW was way too pricey. Seemed to work Ok but v. boring (it was grey but didn't seem to break down). Possible budget choice.
Otherwise the Citroen spacetourer is what one of our neighbours with a large suite of kids has. Not been in it (it is only 18 months old and I don't want Covid from said kids) but he says it's great. NB he isn't a big petrolhead and just goes on space to £ ratio. Gets them all in for camping holidays no problem.
The i800, while being fairly basic equipment-wise, (although I haven’t been in one more recent than about two-three years old), they seem pretty reliable, and have stacks of room in them. I don’t think we’ve had one in for a while, come to think of it, but I’ll have a look around to see if we’ve got a recent one about. Due to our change of ownership, we don’t get Enterprise vehicles in now, and I think we may be dropping Motability, and they were the usual suspects.
I would have suggested a Tourneo Custom, (not the Connect), I always found them to be really comfortable on long runs, on the odd occasions I had to pick one up and deliver it, although I’ve always found Berlingos and Partners to be cripplingly uncomfortable, practically reducing me to tears, but plenty of people seem to like them. Go figure, as they say. (Shrugs)
The very latest versions are, it has to be said, a world away in terms of design and comfort, though, but too small for the OP’s needs, I think.
7people + luggage? Long wheelbase v-class is prob one of your only options. No 7 seat car will take the luggage (unless you trailer it), even the smaller vans like nv200, tourneou. The new Peugeot/Citroen spacetourer XL could be worth a look, but I'd guess still don't have propper luggage capacity with 7 seats unfolded - and for the price of them you may as well get a 2nd hand v-class.
Kodiaq version of the T7 (no really) apparently is going to be available in a LWB version.
Next year.
For proper big money I suspect.
Interesting though, particularly as their talking about an electric variant - sometime.
Have you actually tried one of the Spacetourer family? We tried the medium and long versions (both were good) and ended up with a Dispatch XL crewvan as we only needed 6 seat option and wanted mud and bikes separate from the cabin.
24k miles so far and drives fine. Have done UK - Switzerland and UK - Czech Republic.
Had previous model Dispatch and previous previous Scudo so spent 23 years and 250k miles with SEVEL Nord vans. 2 minor breakdowns in that time - snapped clutch cable and what turned out to be a pin hole rubbed in a plastic fuel pipe sucking in air bubbles.
Only complaint driving wise would be first gear is a bit low and the change into 2nd is slightly clunky. Interior poorly thought out for bottle storage compared to a Transit Custom.
Not sure what the current engine options are - for 120hp van was 2 litre but equivalent Spacetourer was 1.6.
pulls to the left on British roads to such an extent that my wife and I both needed to get checked out for chest pains.
Constantly? If so then this surely is an alignment or tyre issue, and I would have thought easily rectifiable by a garage.
I just had to Google the i800 to see how hideous they are.
Found this...
Want.
Massively impressed by my mazda 5, on the smaller side of a 7 seater (6+1) but bought so i could mount my bike upright with ease and still have a couple of passengers (can actually mount 2 bikes and still have a passenger)
Drives like a car, so far in a year /13000 miles ive had to do rear brake pads, radiator and (optional) oil change.
Compared to my bmw i would have been doing something every month
At 22 mths old aren't you able to sort all of that through warranty?
Leftfield suggestion - Citroen spacetourer?
@matt_outandabout you’d think eyh? But sadly not. It’s been to four different garages, two VW and two independents (both with Hunters). The alignment is spot on. One of the independents says he gets T6s, particularly caravelles and Californias, in all the time with the same issue & can do nothing about it. VW have even issued a TPI which essentially says “yes they do this, we can’t fix it. Odd soff!”
The engine issue will be rectified under warranty, I even got them to throw in a 5 year extension to the warranty when we bought it as we’d wanted to keep it long term. The thing is, it shouldn’t break down like this. The 2.0 199/204 engine is used extensively in VWG in Audis, VWs and Skodas. After ten years they’d really ought to know how to put one together. It’s the second time it’s properly died, the first time it left the wife, kids and in-laws stranded at the side of the A1 in rush hour having just “powered off” while in lane 3 @ <cough ahem>mph. Losing the engine, power steering and brake servo made her this <> angry.
Need to try a space tourer. They are cheap and loaded with kit, just Hannah’s review aligns with what I’ve heard elsewhere.
I've got a proace verso, had it from new for about a year and really like it. No issues at all in that time. I don't recognize the issues Hannah's raised - maybe they're confined to the cheaper van version. I've got the mid range 'Family' spec which suits me fine but has slightly fewer toys than the roughly equivalent pug/Citroen/vauxhall - stuff like powered side doors, parking camera etc (though it's slightly cheaper I think).
It's not perfect:
- Bottle holders are rubbish
- the adaptive cruise is rubbish
- There's no storage thingy between the seats. I've DIY'd my own, other people have bought aftermarket VW ones
- the plastics are a bit cheap
- the paint's a bit thin
- the suspension can be crashy when it's not loaded up
- it doesn't have Android auto / car play (there's an unofficial fix for this though)
- the back's carpeted which looks nice new but isn't ideal for family/bikes/camping
- it's not the best looking thing in the world, especially the rear half, but hey, it's a box on wheels.
- the steering's a bit weird, like there's an extra half turn of the wheel - hard to explain and I sometimes wonder if I imagine it, but I sometimes find I'm frantically feeding the wheel to get it round a corner! Probably just me!
That's about it though. The stories of things going wrong tend to centre around the adblue tank/sensor going haywire and the powered sliding doors failing.
It's really flexible, rear two rows of seats slide back and forward and can be taken out I've taken one row out pretty much permanently so I can have either a huge boot or a big 'living' space in the back depending on where the rear seats are positioned. I've used it for bike trips, camping in with two kids, camping in on my own with the bike inside too, family holiday to Wales loaded with a ton of crap. It's still a van so rolls around a bit in corners but I was pleasantly surprised by how it felt to drive - not car-like but not far off. Mine's a manual, it's ok but the auto's supposed to be really nice - I'd have liked one but the price was prohibitive at the time.
The Merc will be a nicer vehicle no doubt but you'll pay for it - I think you'd be hard pushed to beat the proace verso/spacetourer/traveller/vivaro life (dreadful names aside) in terms of bang for your buck.
There's also meant to be a fiat version coming now they're part of the wider stellantis (?) group if you fancy your van based people carrier having some Italian flair!
I don't recognise the comments either. All twin van passenger seat are pretty flat and L shaped. This one is no worse than others. And if you go single seat in a tourer it is the same adjustable seat as the driver seat. And the Op's vehicle isn't going to have a bulkhead.... 🙂
Similarly I've got a 6ft 6in work colleague who finds his Berlingo the most comfortable thing ever whilst others on here find it crippling.
Just go drive stuff and make your own mind up.
A popemobile Italian space tourer would be perfect. At least then I could rely on it not catching fire, suffering catastrophic engine failure, or undergoing any of the myriad failures the previous velle went through.
I've also suffered a new vivaro hire van. Cramped with rubbish controls.
I'd go with the Mercedes and not just because I have one, but their popularity with airport transfers. Apparently there are some good deals to be had too as that market is a bit flat at the moment. I know when I was looking for mine, loads of the used airport stuff was 300k miles plus.