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Not intending to give it a go, but need to try and settle some office debate!!!
Some current work activities are close to grouse moors and the keepers don't want any disturbance - which is fair enough. However, some of the figures we've heard about the cost of a day's shooting range from stupidly expensive to just plain stupid...
Any thoughts from the STW hive?
for the 'best' moors well into the thousands per gun for a driven day, low hundreds per gun for a walked up day
[url] http://www.rottalestates.com/grouse-shooting/ [/url]
£150 + VAT (so £180) per brace for expected bag of 50-60 brace, so £9k to £10,800 for the day divided by 10 guns.
£900 to £1,080 each.
Anywhere between £500 and £5000 a peg. But on average I'd expect between £900 and £1200
Look up Chris packham grouse video on Google and watch the video, then add that to the cost...
I walk on grouse moors and see the sterile managed land and the gin traps.
OP the estate has to recover a seasons costs in a very short window. As above a few hundred to many thousands. My shooting was never good enough to justify grouse but I did look into it. Given the cost of getting up the a venue and probably 2 nights accommodation it was certainly an expensive excersize, which does show the money it puts into the local economy.
Depends whether driven or walked. Driven varies dramatically and the best estates can cost up to 100k for 10 guns (with accommodation etc). Cost example at different estates linked below.
http://www.williampowellsporting.co.uk/availability/?Type=1
I have shot walked grouse for £30 a brace but on average its about £100.
Out of interest the National Trust have just terminated the Grouse shooting licence in Hope and Park Hall Hayfield due to miss management on the moors mainly due to the Hen Harrier.
Out of interest the National Trust have just terminated the Grouse shooting licence in Hope and Park Hall Hayfield due to miss management on the moors mainly due to the Hen Harrier.
Mainly due to the Hen Harrier doing what? Being there?
Or not, as the implication seems to be.
The lease isn't pulled yet: the NT have said it will stop at the half-way review point in April next year. Their tenants are expected to understand this (a big read)...
OP the estate has to recover a seasons costs in a very short window. As above a few hundred to many thousands. My shooting was never good enough to justify grouse but I did look into it. Given the cost of getting up the a venue and probably 2 nights accommodation it was certainly an expensive excersize, which does show the money it puts into the local economy.
Local economy benefits have been proved to be minimal at best. If anyone is interested, I'd suggest reading inglorious by Mark Avery.
+1 to Inglorious - worth a read.
Chris Packham.. ?
Grouse moors are subsidised by the state at about (I think) £56 /ha. Nice Mr Osborne increased it a couple of years ago. This goes to the landlord, and the benefits to the local economy are minimal.
Maintenance of moorland for grouse, in particular drainage, is shown to greatly increase downstream flooding, so poor old us pay a second time. Thanks, guys.
My position was neither for or against...
I do shoot, but too tight to pay 😉
I can immediately see the cause of our office argument - price per shoot vs price per gun
[img] 
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Duck shoot?
A lot of the moors would have been given over to grazing long ago if it weren't for the shoots. So flooding would have been significantly worse and the peat lost forever.
I'm not against shooting as the Grouse, Pheasants, Partridge etc all get used/consumed while providing sport & income to some but what boils my water to the extreme is when raptors like your Hen Harriers/Buzzards etc are persecuted by landowners & gamekeepers,
I'm also a sea angler & have caught many a mackerels head due to Sammy the bloody seal nicking the rest, but do I think I should be persecuting seals? No.
Twenty years ago it was £2500 for a days shoot with a brace over The Duke of Devonshire's land surrounding Bolton Abbey. Or, if you may, buy the barman at The Devonshire Arms a couple of pints, find out when the next shoot is and sit on the other side of the wall adjoining his land as none of them would hit a barn door at ten yards 🙂
It's a toffs sport, subsidised by the taxpaying plebs, causes more ecological damage than any benefits. All too often those involved in running the estates get away with murder. Selfish scumbags really.
I'd suggest reading inglorious by Mark Avery.
You mean long term class war warrior, League Against Cruel Sports member Mark Avery?
Yeah, theres an impartial source of information if ever there was one 🙄
I walk on grouse moors and see the sterile managed land and the gin traps.
Which side of this road do you think has greatest biodiversity? The grouse moor or the grazing?
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as for you having found Gin traps? Chinny reckon 😉
Maintenance of moorland for grouse, in particular drainage, is shown to greatly increase downstream flooding,
The drainage was put in because from the 1950's to the 1980's the government were giving moorland owners grants to do it, primarily to improve grazing, back in the days when the CAP was throwing money at farmers to produce as much as possible.
[i]You mean long term class war warrior, League Against Cruel Sports member Mark Avery?[/i]
You missed the 25 years at the RSPB as head of Science Dept and 13 years as Conservation Director. Are RSPB renowned for class war?
Don't be posting facts Dave it's not fair on the hard of thinking.
[i] http://markavery.info/2015/09/03/drop/ [/i]
He's been a member of LACS for less than a year.
Not so chinny reckon
If it was anyone else I'd engage, but it's ninfan....
None of it is natural, and draining moors into valleys causing the occasional flood so some rich people can shoot what are essentially chickens, is not helping the issue.
Just buy a chicken and a shot gun and shoot it, if that's what you get off on.
Strange eh Dave, All those years wearing a mask of [i]supposed[/i] impartiality due to your Job, (RSPB are officially neutral on the issue) then shortly after you leave admitting you support LACS and trying to ban things...
Not so chinny reckon
Thats not a Gin trap 🙄
@ essel - I've reeled in the head of a barracuda a few times. I blamed the sharks.
[i]Thats not a Gin trap[/i]
Cool so you're hung up on trap ID, rather than that trapping happens on grouse moors.
[i]RSPB are officially neutral on the issue[/i]
"growing evidence of the environmental impact of ever intensive driven grouse shooting led us in 2012 to conclude that self-regulation of this industry had failed and so we would advocate a licensing system designed to reduce the negative impacts."
"We focus our efforts on the environmental damage caused by grouse shooting: the peatlands that are damaged by burning, the water that is polluted, the predators that are illegal killed. We believe that a licensing system, a reformed approach to consenting burning on peatlands, restoration of these special sites coupled with better enforcement and tougher penalties for wildlife crime can address these issues."
@ essel - I've reeled in the head of a barracuda a few times. I blamed the sharks.
I feel your pain! (even though I often get 4-6 Macky at a time) Never had the pleasure of a Baccaruda though!
I have rarely met someone from the countryside who is against field sports. The vast majority of anti's I have met are either townies or "class warriors" or usually both. The countryside doesn't look after itself, there has to be a reason to manage it.
RSPB Charter:
The Society shall take no part in the question of the killing of game birds and legitimate sport of that character except when such practices have an impact on the Objects.
Or, as Martin Harper wrote on the very same blog you quoted, (but decided not to cut and paste this bit)
[i]We are also neutral on the ethics of shooting but we do care about the environmental consequences of that activity.[/i]
So, yes, RSPB are officially neutral on the issue
Want to dig any more holes for yourself, Dave, because so far, you've not actually tried to debate any of the issues or discuss any of the points made 😕
Maybe you'll come back with something intelligent and discuss whether moorland drainage grants were a good thing or a bad thing? or what the pattern of sheep stocking densities has been over the years? or maybe you'll ask questions over the huge project of grip blocking that most grouse moor owners have been doing for years (not least because the resultant bog flushes provide tots of tasty snacks for grouse)
Maybe you'll even look at that photo above and tell me which side of the road you think has the greatest biodiversity? Go on Dave, if you want to debate the issues, I'm more than happy to do that.
The RSPB recently pulled out of Defra's Hen Harrier Plan...
One para, to get you interested - [i]Some will argue that the weather or vole population is to blame, however, early returns from the national hen harrier survey suggest numbers away from intensively managed grouse moors in north and west Scotland have done ok. We remain convinced that the primary reason for the hen harrier‘s continuing scarcity remains illegal killing. [/i]
Chinny reckon
Are you 12? I used to say that when I was 12.
Do you slap your chin when you say it? I used to when I was a child.
As for the Grouse... Round here the Bolton Abbey estate seems to charge loads and take plenty of subsidies to not provide an awful lot to the local communities. Oh, and they get sniffy if you take your dog on the moors.
Fenn traps, not gin traps; quite right there ninfan, for a change...
I have rarely met someone from the countryside who is against field sports. The vast majority of anti's I have met are either townies or "class warriors" or usually both. The countryside doesn't look after itself, there has to be a reason to manage it.
I'm a countryman at heart & the only field 'sport' I'm against is foxhunting, but that's another subject. The persecution of raptors in the Grouse & Pheasant business (as that's all it is) really pisses me off. Proper. 👿
Round here the Bolton Abbey estate seems to charge loads and take plenty of subsidies to not provide an awful lot to the local communities. Oh, and they get sniffy if you take your dog on the moors.
They get arsey if you try to ride a bike up over Simons Seat as well. 😉
They'd be taking subsidy whether there was shooting on the moors or not. Most are SSSI and hence funded via environmental stewardship scheme, whether they're achieving the objectives of the schemes fully is up for debate
The persecution of raptors in the Grouse & Pheasant business (as that's all it is) really pisses me off. Proper.
Do you get pissed off when raptors are killed (under licence) at airports? how about chicken farms?
Are they not both businesses as well?
Nope, the areas which are SSSIs are small compared with the areas of managed shooting.
They get arsey if you try to ride a bike up over Simons Seat as well
I know! I'm surprised they have not built some decent bike trails on their lad yet as there's plenty of room and I'm sure they could find a way of charging a fortune for it.
dp
stabiliser - Now and again, one gets done...
https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2015/11/20/stody-estate-subsidy-penalty-confirmed/
... possibly because a lot of ordinary people complained to the RPA.
About 30% by area are SSSI, so a fair chunk
Do you get pissed off when raptors are killed (under licence) at airports? how about chicken farms?Are they not both businesses as well?
Crank. How many airports have Hen Harriers flying about?
Couldn't give a flying chickenshit about chicken farms.
Do you not actually care a jot about declining species? (which have very little impact on business)
Do people only think about ££'ss FFS
Boils down to this really...
[url= https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8752/28623638372_6a733613d0_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8752/28623638372_6a733613d0_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/KBnCsq ]Native-American-quote-on-Money[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmygrainger/ ]jimmyg352[/url], on Flickr
Do you not actually care a jot about declining species?
Yes
However not all raptors are declining, or for that matter endangered, species
Not all declining, or endangered, species are raptors either - although sometimes they do get eaten by them.
Slowoldgit - I've not mentioned raptors, don't think anyone would try and say its not happening, as your like link elucidates. Was more offering a counterpoint to the grouse moor = bad land management narrative. It provides good habitats for a range of ground nesting birds and waders, could be better with less burning, less drainage ang greater apex veg diversity but its a lot better than the sheep grazing that it would have been without the sporting estates of yore.
Need to be a bit careful but I advise a major infrastructure co on construction of assets including substations for windfarms often in peat environments and a good percentage of the landowners have a genuine interest (not exclusively financial) in preserving the habitat.
Gerrrofff moi laaaaaand 😆
However not all raptors are declining, or for that matter endangered, speciesNot all declining, or endangered, species are raptors either - although sometimes they do get eaten by them.
Ok, next question, are game bird numbers decreasing?
[i]So, yes, RSPB are officially neutral on the issue[/i]
Neutral on the issue of shooting, not on the impacts of grouse moor management. Which is what was being discussed.
[i]Maybe you'll even look at that photo above and tell me which side of the road you think has the greatest biodiversity? Go on Dave, if you want to debate the issues, I'm more than happy to do that.[/i]
The moorland is likely to be the richer and yet is unlikely to support nesting apex predators such as Hen Harriers. Why would that be from such a rich and biodiverse habitat? Is the other side of the road former moorland or in-bye grassland? It's not overly clear from your photo.
If we're comparing grouse managed moorland with other moorland areas then the issue is less clear as to which has the greater biodiversity.
BTW. Given your previous employment (you trained as a keeper no?) are you a member of the National Gamekeepers Organisation? BASC? GWT?
Just so we know if you're "[i]an impartial source of information[/i]"
Stabiliser - I think theres a lot of interesting point regards wind farms.
Ultimately, much as the 'rewilding' idea has been discussed has, nobody (least of all Monbiot) has come up with a sustainable funding option for upland areas that begins to offset their management costs (and if you read into the actual 'rewilding' plans that are anything but 'wild' instead relying very much on ongoing management, all of which costs money)
That means that of the practical choices that pay the bills, its either shooting , sheep, trees or wind.
none are a perfect answer
The moorland is likely to be the richer and yet is unlikely to support nesting apex predators such as Hen Harriers. Why would that be from such a rich and biodiverse habitat?
possibly because HH require a complex matrix of both heather and white ground, due to the importance of voles in their diet. Evidence at Langholm and other locations points strongly towards this complex maxrix being needed and is often not present on English moors
Is the other side of the road former moorland or in-bye grassland? It's not overly clear from your photo.
long overgrazed moorland
If we're comparing grouse managed moorland with other moorland areas then the issue is less clear as to which has the greater biodiversity.https://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/grant_mallord_stephen_thompson_2012_tcm9-318973.pdf
indeed, the science is far from settled - though its funny that HH aren't doing any better on none grouse moorland than keepered land, while Merlin are absolutely thriving on keepered moors
BTW. Given your previous employment (you trained as a keeper no?) are you a member of the National Gamekeepers Organisation? BASC? GWT?
Longstanding BASC Member, though to the best of my knowledge BASC have never employed any convicted animal rights extremists
[i]while Merlin are absolutely thriving on keepered moors[/i]
Especially when Hen Harrier, Peregrine and Short Eared Owl, all species that predate grouse chicks, aren't.
[i]though its funny that HH aren't doing any better on none grouse moorland than keeper land[/i]
"Anderson et al (2009) concluded that moorland management for red grouse was beneficial for hen harrier productivity. However, in 2008, there were records of only 5 successful hen harrier nests across the UK extent of driven grouse moors, yet estimates based on habitat area indicted that there should have been almost 500 pairs (Redpath et al. 2010)."
They should be doing better on managed moorland but aren't
"The absence of breeding hen harriers from extensive areas of grouse moors suggest that some, perhaps many, grouse moor managers will not tolerate any breeding hen harriers on their land (Redpath et al. 2010). Indeed, once hen harriers are removed from an area, minimal effort may be required to prevent further nesting attempts, for example by burning out suitable heather for nesting and disturbance of any birds attempting to nest."
Which brings us back to that pole trap
and the Derbyshire National Trust land
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-36141199
Or why so many satellite tagged birds disappear on grouse moors?
Anyone would think that healthy populations of raptors aren't encouraged as part of the biodiversity of these moors.
"Hen Harriers are not the only raptor species that suffer on grouse moors - my own research on Peregrine Falcon breeding success in the uplands of England showed that because of persecution, Peregrine Falcon pairs nesting on grouse moors fledge only half the number of chicks of those which nest away from this kind of habitat (Amar et al. 2012). This work suggested that persecution was widespread on grouse moors in almost all areas of England, findings that run counter to the claim that raptor persecution is only occurring on few 'rogue' estates. Other research has highlighted similar problems for Golden Eagles on the grouse moors of Scotland (Whitfield et al. 2004)." - http://www.bou.org.uk/hen-harriers-going-going/
It looks like something has to be done to solve this.
Driven moorland with vicarious licencing and grants received dependant on maintaining raptor numbers?
A move to walked up shooting with lower bag numbers? and healthier raptor populations.
You appear to be trying to demonstrate that illegal persecution takes place
I don't recall anyone denying it.
Personally, I don't support illegal persecution for one minute, because I believe that there is a critical mix of habitat that makes ground attractive or unattractive to HH, to quote the JNCC report:
[i]Distribution models found that increasing areas of natural grassland (excluding grasslands which are subject to fertilization or re-seeding) are associated with an increased probability of occupancy by hen harriers, although there is a very marked peak when approximately 25% of a square is natural grassland. This may reflect the fact that, although it is not a preferred nesting habitat, rough grassland may be positively associated with the abundance of voles and meadow pipits Anthis pratensis, important prey species for hen harriers (Arroyo et al 2009, 2006, Amar & Redpath 2005, Amar 2001).
The decline of Orkney’s hen harriers has been related to the detrimental effects, on vole numbers, of overgrazing of rough grassland by sheep (Amar & Redpath 2005). Amar et al (2008) summarised much of the earlier work and confirmed the link between food limitation, preferred hunting habitat and breeding performance. Breeding attempts are more successful when nesting areas are surrounded by higher proportions of rough grass. Amar et al (2010) found that hen harrier productivity on Orkney over 33 years was negatively correlated with sheep abundance; declines in the hen harrier population were associated with a doubling in sheep numbers and the hen harrier population recovered as sheep numbers fell. On Mull, it has been shown that harriers avoided managed grassland with heavy sheep grazing andthat the removal of sheep stock was followed by the occupation of several new sites (Haworth & Fielding 2002)[/i]
Essentially, (and in support of personal discussions with Langholm project staff some years ago) whatever the heather situation, if your surrounding habitat doesn't carry a significant amount of rough grass (white ground as it's often called) then HH won't nest there. so if you want to deter HH to protect your grouse (or indeed if you wanted to promote them) then your key methods are managing surrounding grazing densities to affect rough grass cover, rather than having to break the law, and for what it's worth, I think that this has been a far more important factor in limiting HH populations in England on a macro scale than persecution, as it begins to explain why they are still not thriving in areas with little or no shooting, we simply don't have the mix of different heather structures mixed with white ground that they need to both nest and feed. (Nest in the heather, feed in the grass)
The simple answer is to make grouse shooting require a license - and remove the licence using a civil standard of proof where there is mismanagement and raptor persecution.
There is no doubt at all that illegal killing of raptors on grouse moors and other sporting estates is common and that this has a significant effect on populations.
As for landownership and usage - yes the land still needs to provide a living. It doesn't have to be intensive sheep grazing as the only alternative. Other models exist and even grouse moors can be managed without breaking the law
I have rarely met someone from the countryside who is against field sports.
Can we file this shit under the same nonsense that suggests all hours grocery stores are run by people from south Asia, and black people run faster?
(as Nickc takes off and nukes the thread from orbit)
Don't listen to Chris Packham, he advocates eradicating domestic cats too. He's inhuman.
Can we file this shit under the same nonsense that suggests all hours grocery stores are run by people from south Asia, and black people run faster?
You have used the word all, I used the wrod rarely.
Evidence would suggest the shop ownership and athletic prowess are largely true also btw.
Anyway, any game keepers found persecuting birds of prey should be prosecuted. The idea of an estate licence which could be revoked is a good one.
The point of the post Jamba, was to get you to think about your in-built prejudices assumptions and biases (that we all have). Perhaps (just maybe...) you might not have spent time with folk from the country side who don't share the view that wild animals need to be killed, trapped, culled or shot for sport?
Don't listen to Chris Packham, he advocates eradicating domestic cats too. He's inhuman.
Or maybe he is passionate about preserving native species and has performed a lot of research to find out that domestic cats are bloody good at killing them?
My sisters cats certainly seem very adept, oh but of course, thats just "nature" 😉
how about chicken farms?
You do spout some utter drivel 😆
You do spout some utter drivel
Right... Apart from the fact that it's known that free range chicken farms have been given NE licences to kill buzzards due to hen losses.
So it seems that 'persecution' of raptors in the name of commercial interests is acceptable sometimes
Which side of this road do you think has greatest biodiversity? The grouse moor or the grazing?
Looks about even at "very little" apiece. Where are the trees?
ninfan I regulate "free range" chicken farms as part of my job, I have four i visit twice a year and none suffer any predation from hawks. So where you come up with this stuff is anyones guess.
As for airports I believe they are far more likely to uses hawks as a deterrent that go round trapping them.
ninfan I regulate "free range" chicken farms as part of my job, I have four i visit twice a year and none suffer any predation from hawks. So where you come up with this stuff is anyones guess.
Oh, you're calling bullshit? Excellent 😈
Yes I am from my own experience, if that offends you tough luck, man up princess 😆
oh, "your experience"?
So, are you saying that NE have issued licences to control raptors for protection of poultry and air safety (as I had claimed) or not then?
I just want to see how far you're planning to take this before accepting that I was right after all.
Don't flatter yourself 🙄
So have they issued the raptor control licences or not pigface?
After all, you're the one who waded in claiming that it was utter drivel 😆
Tell you what, why don't you read this (the court case that found NE had unlawfully refused a licence to control buzzards on a pheasant shoot) before you come back and apologise:
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2015/3297.html
I called you out on chicken farms. Utter drivel, as I said in visiting 4 "free range" chicken farms twice a year to regulate them none of them has a license to control raptors.
We can do this as long as you want 😆
Jambafact #1,123,456
The countryside doesn't look after itself, there has to be a reason to manage it.
You really are an empty shell of a man. Are you seriously saying that the nature can't balance itself without the careful management of [s]blood thirsty cockwipes[/s] folk who genuinely care about the countryside as opposed to those ignorant townsfolk?
ooh, four? Wow! You do realise that anecdote is not data?
Now, how's about that pesky little court case above that confirms I was right after all?
Mmm I wonder what's happened to this interestin discussion overnight. Hopefully it's not descending in a futile peurile point scoring shambles....oh.
In reply to OP - £1400+VAT per person based on 10 guns / 800 birds or something like that (don't know the terminology) according to the poster on the back of the shooting club bogs that I was in recently.
In reply to the rest - Marginally cheaper than mopping out Calderdale
I saw a load of grouse on my ride on Sunday, all running around, it was like a scene from Jurassic Park. They don't look very hard to shoot.. or is that the idea?
Do shut up you tiresome man the four I go to is data duh, so it doesn't count because it doesn't fit in with your agenda, you said chicken farms, I called bullshit on chicken farms and you provide evidence for a Pheasant shoot 🙄
Pheasants aren't chickens you dullard 😆
They're supposed to take off - not sure the lackeys paid to scare em out of the heather appreciate surface-to-surface shots. They are a bit crap though but I don't suppose that bothers that fat, boozy, red-faced chaps tasked with shooting them though.