[Closed] What makes you read or throw aside a CV ?

Simple layout, no more than 3 pages (even for a senior hire), focus on what you did, no gaps, no statement (particularly not one written in the third person like "midnighthour is a peerless blah blah"). If you're in the UK don't put a photo, if you're outside research to find out if you should. Also, don't have a shit email address like "ladiesman1981@hotmail.com" because I can't take people seriously who can't get a semi-decent address.

Atlaz has it bang on, oh and don't use comic sans.

Oh and make sure that you both know it inside and out and also that every fact can be talked about or verified

Don't accompany your CV with a spam covering letter. tailor it to the job. Last position I hired for I got around 100 applicants. Only 2 bothered to taylor the covering letter to the role. I only interviewed 2 people.

Is the OP King Kenny?

elaborate descriptions of previous roles/qualifications that we both know are irrelevant will have the cv headed for the bin faster than a paper aeroplane.

being able to use Word or Excel is not a qualification.

I always take half the CVs out of the pile and throw them in the bin. I don't want anyone who is unlucky to work for me.

I dont think I am King Kenny whoever that is. Had an account on here years, but not posted very much for the last one. Other things on plate.

Spelin mistaks n txt R a know know, 2.

I throw aside CV's and covering letters which make reference to other industries , companies or organisations. Amazing how often it happens... so double and triple check, and get someone else to read it! More than 1 spelling mistake is a 'no' from me.

Simple layout and not too fussy. Chronological order. I've seen CV's whereby it's hard to work what they've done, simply as it's all in a bizarre order. Don't have reams of school/college stuff if that all happened 10+ years ago, just simple reference to what you got.

Don't put your name and contact details at the top of every page, don't know why people do that.

Don't try to tell the company what they do in the covering letter. More often than not, it's wrong, and makes you look a c*ck.

Stick to facts.

Covering letter - 3 or 4 paragraphs tops. if I've got loads of CV's, I don't want to read an essay. Don't just regurgitate what's in the CV either. That's what the CV is for...

LOL at RJ 😆

don't write that you are "an expert poof reader" for a copywriters job. That one went in the bin. 😆

Tailoring the cv to the job is one of the fundamentals.

If it's for a job with a lot of growth, say, then the cv has to encapsulate some element of the future. Has this person topped out, or are they on the upswing of their intellectual / professional development? What is their upside as the Yanks like to say. You've done this that and the other but where is the evidence that you can take on new things?

OTOH, there's plenty of more task-oriented jobs (big and small) where that sort of approach would be all wrong. You don't want to shove in some visionary capacity-for-growth cv to a very tightly defined technical post - e.g. [i]C# programmer required. Must be awesome[/i]. There you'd just need to demonstrate awesome-ness in what you have done in the past.

don't write that you are "an expert poof reader" for a copywriters job. That one went in the bin.

I once interviewed a young chap that brought his O level certificates in, they were burnt at the edges, during the interview he revealed he had burned his parents house down.........

Don’t add the logos of the companies you have worked for onto the cv, make sure you have both a mobile and email address as contact details as you would be surprised at the number of cv’s one gets with no contact details.

Make sure you mobile has a normal ring tone and not some naff song or funny voice of a famous person.

If the job you are applying for is not local to you ie requires a relocation make sure you have given it good thought as clients these days are always weary of those having to relocate unless its an interim role as work life balance is becoming more important and you will be seen as an outsider apposed to someone closer to the role.

Your next job is going to come from the experience and skill set you have gained form the last 5 years worth of work you have done. Don’t apply for a job because you have done a similar role 10 years ago….its not going to count there will be other out there with more recent experience than you.

Your cv should have your title in the company, the period you held it in terms of dater, where it was you worked and a brief outline of what the company does i.e. the sector it operates in its turnover and perhaps a few other details.

Then move on to your responsibilities then achievements all in bullet point form not paragraphs as recruiters get bored of paragraphs and will move onto the next cv. Don’t have more information on a role you did that was for the least amount of time than perhaps the next role you did for twice the time if that makes sense.

Remove any statements you might have about yourself and depending on the level at which you operate at I would say remove any interests you may have mentioned as when applying for a £100k+ job no one needs to know you like long walks in the park with your dogs and enjoy cooking.

That’s all I can add at this stage.

Make sure you mobile has a normal ring tone and not some naff song or funny voice of a famous person.

Can I ask why? Surely they wont ever hear it?

Sorry by ringtone I dont mean the one you hear but rather the one I hear when calling you.

My comments are biased towards those applicants looking for their next role in the £100k+ space as that is that area I work in and can pass comment on but assume the theory applies for anyone looking for a job.

If I call you to screen you and discuss your application to asses if it is worth us meeting to take things to the next stage which is generally how things work and I get your voice mail and it’s a comedy voice or I have to sit an listen to Guns and Roses whilst your phone rings it does not paint a good picture be it rightly or wrongly so.

Musical/comedy voices are for when you are 16 years old not when you are applying for a £100k+ Finance Directors job in a FTSE100 business. I know everyone does not want to have to conform to societies expectations but truth be told it is off putting and not the norm.

Once again its only my 2 cents worth and I guess if you where applying for a graphic design role in a funky organisation it may be seen to be appropriate but in the world of finance its not.

I am not talking ringtone but rather when i call you i dont here a rining phone but rather a comedy voice or song.

My comments are biased towards those applicants looking for their next role in the £100k+ space as that is that area I work in and can pass comment on but assume the theory applies for anyone looking for a job.

Comedy ringtone =

[img] [/img]

Make sure you mobile has a normal ring tone and not some naff song or funny voice of a famous person.
Can I ask why? Surely they wont ever hear it?

During an interview I've had the people interviewing me ring my mobile. Just to see if it rings, silent or off. I've done it myself. Amazing how many comedy ringtones / people answering their phones during interviews goes on.

Yes £100k is the "lower" end of where we operate our bread and butter is £150k too £180k.

Warenfpro geez a job? A [s]£100K[/s] £150-£180K one? Please?

http://www.bicycleindustryjobs.com/resume-avoidingmistakes.asp

I once received a CV in which not only did the guy tell me his interests included socialising with friends and going to the cinema, he also went on at great length to inform readers that in his opinion "The Matrix" was the best film ever.

I always used to reply to the ones that originated from Asia and ask if they would be available for an interview in Stafford in 2 days time. Nobody ever said yes, strangely.

Warrenpfo - If you're in a 100k+ job you've done well for someone who doesn't know what a comma is! I'd be surprised if you don't become light-headed while talking, due to the lack of oxygen. 😆

Is that for real?

Yes £100k is the "lower" end of where we operate our bread and butter is £150k too £180k.

I never said I was in a 100k job...I wish. We place people who are earning £100k+.

The world or recruitment, executive search call it what you like is not one I would recommend to anyone to be honest and touch wood I will be out of it very soon. It’s a very judgemental world where you have the hopes and ambitions of people in your hands that get thrown in the bin daily and that does not sit well with me.

I have learnt that it is very hard out there and to be noticed and stick out front he crowd you have to ensure you conform to the requirements of the client and tick all the boxes required. I can advise that you follow up any application with a call and make sure you get through to the recruiter or the client you applied to discuss your application.

Don’t take the he/she is not at his desk or is on the phone or in a meeting excuse and keep trying till you get through.

During an interview I've had the people interviewing me ring my mobile. Just to see if it rings, silent or off. I've done it myself. Amazing how many comedy ringtones / people answering their phones during interviews goes on.

People dont turn mobiles off in interviews really???

If anyone uses a font other than helvetica or times new roman they can **** off.

Actually I'm not all that keen on times new roman but I realise that it takes all sorts.

[edit]

If they include a picture or a motif on their CV they are also heading for the bin. Oh and different colour type too.

The world or recruitment, executive search call it what you like is not one I would recommend to anyone to be honest and touch wood I will be out of it very soon.

Learn how to format a document properly and be really anal about making sure everything lines up.

Might just be me but even a slightly miss aligned paragraph signifies the applicant doesn't have an eye for accuracy and detail and given its a document you whole career could depend on it really should be correct.

If you don't know how to use word processing software, find someone that does.

Also if you are using a recruitment agency then ask them to let you proof what they send out on your behalf. Once I turned up to an interview and the copy of my CV that the interviewer had was covered in Michael Page branding and the formatting was completely screwed. Looked a right mess. Don't know how I managed to get that job!

Michael Caine has a comedy voicemail, bet he's rushing to change it as he reads this thread

Things to avoid (yes, I've had)
- cv written in pencil on what looks like Izal Medicated toilet paper
- hobbies include reading Tom Clancy novels
- want to work "hear" because girlfriend told you to get a job
- as above, but mother
- flowers in coloured pencil
- scented paper/coloured envelopes
- 3 page covering letters
- 3+ page cv
- coffee (or any other) stains

I like
- covering letter tailored to the job
- detail on most recent job(s) where in any way relevant.
- brevity apart from the above. 1 or 2 paragraphs int he covering letter, 2-3 pages of cv
- might just be me, but we advertise my number if applicants want an informal chat about the job. very rarely happens, but when it does, to me it means they're taking the time to prepare properly and is a brownie point earner.

Might just be me but even a slightly miss aligned paragraph

[u]Do's[/u]
Make your CV relevent to the post to which you are applying. (There is no such thing as a good generic CV)
Use quality font / format
Use bullet points
Include a thought out, polite and professional and to the point covering letter
Check it, check it again, get somebody else to check it, twice.

[u]Don't[/u]
Attempt comedy
Mention that you enjoy socialising and going to cinema with friends
Go into finite detail of your responsibilities when you were a paperboy in 1964
Put salary unless usked to do so
Include a photo

If they include a picture or a motif on their CV they are also heading for the bin. Oh and different colour type too.

I actually quite like getting a photo, but I'm generally recruiting for customer-facing jobs where appearance is important.

For me:

2 page CV max.

Very clear layout, with detail only on the most recent/relevant stuff - I don't care if you gained experience in handling money when you worked at the supermarket checkout when you were 16.

No personal statement (that's what the covering letter is for).

We often get 100+ applicants for 1 or 2 jobs, so I have to be able to skim-read the CV in 30 seconds or less and glean from that whether or not you have the right experience and whether you can communicate coherently. If you can tick both of those boxes you get a re-read. If I get some useful stuff out of that, then you go on a long-list. I then read the long-list CVs / letters carefully and pick the top 10 or so for a short-list/interview.

Oh and CVs with pics on.

I know they are standard practice elsewhere but if the job is in the UK then adding a pic shows you haven't done any research, again not a great trait in a potential employee.

Also you CV will get passed round the office so everyone can laugh at the weird German who was so vain he though we should see his face!

The font would need to be Arial or similar for me. Times new roman would land your CV in the bin.

Formatting is crucial clean simple and aligned. Anything whacky and your in the bin.
Two colours acceptable, three colours bin.
One font, one paragraph or bullet style.
Two fonts = bin, using every font or bullet on your pc = passing round the office for a laugh.

I would be targeting specific information in the initial skim through, I want to know your latest/current job title / employer and your education background, if I can’t find it instantly you are already losing points.

Not customer facing, so don't care what you look like - hence the need for tailoring.
Skim readability +1 though

One last thing don’t apply for every job the company has on offer. We have a number of people that will apply for one role and then 2 min later you get there cv through for another role which is asking for a completely different skill set.

{edit}

Get yourself onto LinkedIn, it works and is a good way of expanding your network. I know of clients who will also go to the trouble of googling people to see what comes up so be aware of your online footprint and the tagged images of you floating about online.

Not quite CV related but relevant. We use an online system where people who want to apply submit their application, cv and covering letter. It has a google button so we can do a quick web search for people so even if you don't use your real name someone else may have done it when posting something on YouTube or you may have a blog that someone else has linked to. You might want to do a web search on your name and email address first to see if anything needs to be removed

I actually disagree with all the font related stuff. We have nearly lost fantastic people by paying too much attention to that so we don't focus much on that. But as others have said there are often hundreds of applications for few jobs so cut out the fluff

Facebook is always an interesting one and at least once a week is the cause of some hilarity in the office.

The first thing I look at is the last section, interests outside work because in a small organisation it matters that the person is interesting or is going to fit in. "Cinema, cookery and Reading" is long hand for "no interests". If they really were into literature I'd expect to see something more detailed like "american literature...." I may be not be interested but at least it shows the person has a life outside work and may be able to bring something extra to us.
On the other hand I've been caught out a few times be seeing "keen cyclist" and getting excited about having someone to talk to, only to find what they actually mean is "go a mile up the local sustrans path twice a year"

Personal statements I find the most pointless waste of time and manage to annoy me before I've got to anything useful. A C.V. should be factual. It is up to me as the prospective employer to decide if I think you are a good team player and able to communicate well with every life form on earth (as, apparently, is everyone who writes a personal statement). To me a personal statement says "I'm putting in some filler as I'm not confident my C.V. packs the necessary punch because I've not thought about wording the factual content properly"
Personal Statement rant over.

then 2 min later you get there cv through

If I was commanding £100k+ I'd hope that the person landing me that job would be marginally more competent at English... No offence!

So we've had:

If anyone uses a font other than helvetica or times new roman they can **** off.

And

Times new roman would land your CV in the bin.

So you also need to be able to read minds.

I'd personally just say to use a simple, professional font. TNR is generally 'safe', as boring as it is. Comic Sans etc just no. Never.

+1 for not applying for 2 jobs. Most big companies will have a recruitment portal. I could see applicants for my jobs and the other previous and current applications the person had made. One external candidate had applied for 80! roles in total and had 14 live applications. I didn't even read that one.

"Cinema, cookery and Reading

Actually we find these great topics. They are opportunities to get people talking on a non work subject which can relax them and make the interview easier. Don't put them down unless you are prepared to talk about them though. Don't put down reading unless you are actually reading something at the moment

Facebook is always an interesting one and at least once a week is the cause of some hilarity in the office.

Its a cliche but true nonetheless - there has to be something unique to catch the eye.

I like the way recruiters give the impression they are efficient and have method.
I applied for a job some time ago and spoke to an agency who said I didnt have the right skill set. I worked out who the company was and sent them my CV and a speculative application.
I was interviewed twice and they offered me the job. I refused it in the end and glad I did as they went into liquidation a few month later.

Point is many recruiters are simply there to keep apllicants and employers apart.

CV's are difficult - make sure it talks about your skills and experience though, there is nothing I hate more than saying; "So you have an item here about piece of work X, tell me about that" and the reply being "Oh, well I didn't really work on that"

Then don't put it on your CV - bye now!

I throw them if they are written on Toilet Paper.

Comic Sans is an appalling choice for a CV. Same with any CV where people write in big text to fill out space.

I had a conversation with one of the guys leaving our department (a temp) about his future plans. I asked him whether his CV was up to date and in order, and he responded that his girlfriend (a recruitment consultant) helped him with it and he had it out to eight pages. After that gem, I didn't really need to wonder why he wasn't in his next job yet...

My cv and cover letter seem to work pretty well for me. I just keep it simple with contact details at the top of page 1, basic education details, list of software and equipment i have experience in, then on page 2 i have my 2 previous places of work, out of work interests and references. Cover letter always tailored to the job/ad. Gets me interviews, just I'm not always great in those!

I always use the same font for everything, tahoma. Times and arial are boring and I don't use calibri as its the default font for word, just seems a bit "cba"

jfletch - Member

Might just be me but even a slightly miss aligned paragraph signifies the applicant doesn't have an eye for accuracy and detail and given its a document [s]you[/s] your whole career could depend on it really should be correct.

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

- brevity apart from the above. 1 or 2 paragraphs [s]int he[/s] in the covering letter, 2-3 pages of cv

Check it, check it again!

All good comments, I am off to check my CV and remove the Comic Sans and family pic!

7 Years in executive search for the big 4 and others.

Keep it simple
Use a decent font
List your major achievements and skills on the first page. Stuff more than 5 years ago isn't of much interest initially.

If you're in sales list your targets and achieved for the last three years minimum on page one - at the top - in bold.

Tahoma is ok its clean modern looking (I have just checked), Times NR is old fashioned typewriter style which to me gives the wrong impression.

Now - font size. < 9 = bin, > 12 = bin.

So a question I have been wondering about for a bit...

Do you bother listing the responsibilities of your previous roles?

for example, PM role...

- risk/issue managment
- budget management etc...

Or is it better to use the valuable space for achievement style statements like

- picked up a failing business critical project and turned it round to become a success....

I have gone for achievement based but it niggles me things like risk management aren't explicitly mentioned, however it is bloody obvious you have to do those things to be a successful pm....

I am also amazed at the people who are so particular about font and the such, you could be excluding candidates who would be perfect based on your opinion of a rubbish font? Really? When CV's get to me, unless it is terrible I look past format / font / spelling to see what the person is actually trying to convey.

I also have 'keen cyclist' on my CV, I actually want to be asked about this in interview, shows the interviewer might be human, might be a nice person to work for and may even be interested in bikes too, making it a more attractive place to work. Interviews are 2 way.

I was told years ago to use coloured paper to make the CV stand out in a pile, is this still relevant?

DT78 - re. fonts and stuff, I won't bin something just because I don't like the font, but I will if it looks like a total dog's dinner, particularly if written communication is part of the job role!

I'm generally recruiting for my own business (chalet / bike / snowboard/ski holidays) so spelling isn't necessarily a deal-breaker as it's hardly required for the job, but it's got to look like you've at least made an effort - making an effort IS a big part of the job.

There's a lot more to a CV than its format. Bearing in mind that many CV's arrive on the person responsible's desk via an agency who will have butchered it, screwed up the formatting and generally given a poor impression of you, it shouldn't be that hard to make your CV look professional. If you can't work out for yourself what looks OK then I don't want you anyway.

Any nonsense about a font that doesn't conform to expectations, or a personal statement is either in an area with too many candidates or a manager who has no idea how to do selection and recruitment (beyond irrational selection criteria). Do you want to work for such a person?

On the other hand if you are going to claim to be computer literate or 'experienced in word' etc - then if you have obviously used the inbuilt templates, or are all over the place in layout then I'll see through it. Anyone claiming to be an expert in Word or Excel should be happy if the interviewer asks them to write a macro, use some pivot tables, produce h or vlookups and apply conditional formatting and insert table of content/figures in a document. If you mean can use it - then if it is a specific job requirement, describe it as competent or regular user - but don't over cook it.

I like to see some hobbies / interests on there. Last time I was interviewed the headhunter had removed that from my CV and the interviewer commented on it being odd I hadn't mentioned life outside work!

xcgb - coloured paper is a bit of a risk, it makes you look a bit wacky. I did get a couple of interviews when I left Uni using off-white paper, but I probably wouldn't do it now. 99% of the CV's I see are electronic anyway.

I would expect specific detail of only 2 or 3 previous jobs max, no point giving detail of your tea making days.

So, role title + employer/location + dates. Followed by two statements
1, the responsibilities of the role
2, what was achieved.

I would be aiming for two pages for the whole CV so you can expand on this as much as space allows.

Also, for Gods sake, don't take everything a recruiter says at face value. A lot are phone jockeys who play the numbers game, have no knowledge of your sector and don't understand the needs of their client or you. SOME are excellent, most are average, some are actually damaging to your prospects. This is from both 16 years dealing with them as well as 5 working at one of the UKs largest IT recruitment groups.

#1 tip - read your own damn CV. It's a sales document; would you but what this person is selling?

I'd disagree with a couple of other points here. I like to see interests on a CV as it personalises it; the CV should tell me about a person not read like a D&D character sheet. Also it's easier to remember "the rock climber" than "the guy with an A in Physics" when discussing and referring back later. Anything (positive) that makes you memorable is a bonus.

Also, the "no more than x pages" line is bobbins. A CV should be as ping a it needs to be and no longer, but that length is dependent on the role and the interviewee's skillset. It should be concise but compromising layout or content to achieve some arbitrary length restriction is pointless.

The other thing which should be apparent is, there's no right answer here. Two similar employers might have wholly different ideas about what they look for in a CV.

Good luck.

Staple a £20 note to the CV - it's not a bribe, think of it as an investment in your career.

What do you all mean by 'personal statements' on a CV? I have always applied for academic posts, and was told that a one-short-paragraph summary of research interests at the beginning could be very helpful. It certainly got me a few interviews.

But maybe that's not the sort of thing you're talking about?

My friend had to turn down an applicant that couldn't spell the name of the town he lived in. Likewise, my dad would throw out any that were in fonts too small for him to read (less than 12), silly lay outs, over eager role descriptions (for say, bar work) etc.

Any thoughts on splitting education and work/industry experience as opposed to putting the whole lot in chronological order? The former looks a bit nicer as it splits up the CV, but the latter means the most relevant/advanced qualifications and experiences will be at the start of the CV.

Lots of conflicting advice! Have spent the last 4 months applying for jobs and not even getting to interview stage, I'd like to ask your opinion on the following aspects of my CV:

- I have a [i]very[/i] short summary about my career and aspirations at the top of my CV under the title “Profile”. Is this what you mean by personal statement, and do you think it should be removed?
- I have included a previous manager’s recommendation quote, taken from Linkedin. Is this acceptable or should it be removed?
- Due to a lack of space (I’m at three pages) I’ve written “References on request” rather than include my referees contact details. Should I condense my CV and include their contact details?

Your advice would be very much appreciated.

Just my tuppence worth, but it seems to really depend on what industry and what level of job you are appyling to. As long as you tailor your CV to each application (and also the covering letter) and it's concise, is someone really going to throw it in the bin because of font/colour/layout? I agree that it needs to look professional and convey an understanding of what 'professional' means in that industry, but other that, really?

Smallpedals. Personally I would remove the recommendation and try to reduce the CV to mainly fit into 2 pages, with a third for affiliations, referees etc (in my academic CV it also includes publications). Although I am finding it difficult to stick to that if there is no separate application form, because I feel like I have to match each "skill" in there somewhere so HR don't bin it before the technical guys have a chance to see my skillset! But that's just my opinion, and I haven't got a job yet!!

My qu to the recruiters would be, how do I convey my broad expanse of knowledge in a sector in just 2 pages whilst matching each of the skills required (with an example)? How would you structure the sentences without sounding like you're ticking off a list?

Simple: Skim-read it in 60 seconds. If you lose interest before getting to the end, discard it.

[img] [/img]

1000 yards 🙂

Doesnt any firm use an application formm anymore, i havent applied for a job for a long time.

Simple: Skim-read it in 60 seconds. If you lose interest before getting to the end, discard it

I haven't had time to read through all the posts, so some of this may have been covered.

buzz-lightyear has a real point here. I am in the US and having worked in the UK, know resumes/CVs are written a little differently, but in the final analysis, if you can't wade through it quickly and pick up high points, you lose the interest of the reader.
I read/review in-depth, on average, 20-30 resumes/CVs a day (in the headhunting business) and some lose me in the first 5 seconds. I was told many years ago that you only have about 30 seconds to get the attention of the person reading your resume--if you don't capture their attention in that span, your resume likely goes to the "no thanks" pile, or at best the "maybe pile".
My biggest turn-off is a resume written in a long, narrative style. Just simply boring and you have to read every single line to ferret out the key info. Much prefer the brief summary about a specific position, then bulleted items on responsibilities and accomplishments.

Another thought--having been in the search/headhunting business for 30 years, I have found that what my client companies are really interested in is accomplishments and results outlined succinctly, clearly and briefly. Of course, in different kinds of jobs, i.e. technical/IT/engineering, etc. one has to also convey specific experience with hardware/software/systems/applications, etc.

Things that piss me off on a CV:

Mis-spelling (if you can't be bothered to use spellcheck, it's not great)

Education that goes too far back - if you've got a PHD or MBA, no one is going to care about that GCSE Art B.

TLAs (three letter acronyms) - if they're from a previous job, they won't mean anything to a prospective employer.

Things that look good:

Nice, airy layout - be concise and don't make it look or read like an essay.

Team Sports - seriously, I really think that if you can rub along with other people in a sports team for a long time, you can't be a total arse all of the time (J. Terry esq being an exception rather than the rule!)

Good and relevant points from employment history - not easy, this, but if you can mug up on the company you are sending it to and tailor the experience to their requirements you are on to a winner. Be subtle - this is a subconscious one!

Mis-spelling (if you can't be bothered to use spellcheck, it's not great)

Absolutely right----I hve seen individual rejected for mis-spelled words and bad punctuation

My biggest turn-off is a resume written in a long, narrative style. Just simply boring and you have to read every single line to ferret out the key info. Much prefer the brief summary about a specific position, then bulleted items on responsibilities and accomplishments.

First things first - 2 pages, perfectly proofed, no typos, misspellings or misuses of vocab.

That said, something that's just bullet points actually says eff all about what you did. "In this role I achieved: perfect score at office chair olympics; 100% customer satisfaction; results growth of 12%" - is all well and good, but what was your actual job, and what did you do day to day?
And how does one explain that "project management" actually means "dreaming up a development plan for the company through exploring and designing suitable projects, then managing them to completion" through something other than prose?