You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Maybe I don't need to write much more than the title question to get this thread going. I'm interested to hear from you, as mountain bikers or cyclists, what you feel makes a great café to visit. You can give 1 word answers or tell a story about a particular experience or even give an example of a particular café.
I'm particularly interested to hear what you think from a rider's point of view (but also a non-cyclist if you want) of visiting a café, the place doesn't have to be bike specific however.
I am asking because I live in a spot in Norway where riding is really on the up, this year especially has seen a huge influx in visitors for riding, trails are being built, facilities are being added and people know the place as an MTB destination. Thing is, we have nowhere for people to meet to start, pause or end a ride, there's no hub or info point, there's no hang out place and it seems we could do with one. So what does it need to be, from a rider's point of view?
Good coffee
Good variety of food including some reasonably priced basics, regulars don’t always want to spend a fortune
Home made cakes
Pints of tea, chip sarnies and preferably loads of passive aggressive notices all over the place.
A big sign on the door saying ' No coffee ****ers'.
A great cafe will have good coffee, good cake, good hit food, good bike parking in view, enthusiastic people running it, route advice and maybe a few basic spares to sell
Think Colp has it pretty much nailed, with the exception of speedy service and a choice of inside or outside seating.
The people running it mostly but also
Great coffee and cheaper coffee
Weird tea and normal 'just get me warm' tea
Homemade cakes
Assorted chocolate stuff
Energy bars for the trails and a selection of innertubes, split links, puncture repair kits and 20mm bolt thru axles
Keep it simple.
Fast service - all else fails if you can’t get this right.
Good tea and coffee - it doesn’t need to be any posh, artisan stuff, just not muck.
A small selection of both sweet and savoury products - don’t need loads, 3 or 4 of each to keep them fresh.
An outdoor tap to fill up water bottles.
Some quick takeaway stuff - cans of Coke, Mars Bars, that kind of thing.
Ideally outdoor seating that’s covered and has a heater but that’s not possible for many. A few benches is fine if not.
Reading that, there’s not a lot there but so many places fail on the basics
Mainly location but getting served quickly with no coffee arses causing a jam, having somewhere to sit, sweet and savoury food stuff, few spares is handy but not a deal breaker.
I like it when you are sit in table service and the custom is when you order, you pay. Get the cakes and coffee down ya, quick chat then outta there. When it gets busy and you are trying to catch the over burdened servers and there is a delay, it is a pita when all you want to do is get out sharpish.
Good coffee doesn't need to be pretentious, fresh scones none of your made the day before dry as Gandhi's flip flop, range of toasted sandwiches, fresh salad with a great dressing not the Basil Fawlty lettuce cucumber tomato Waldorf
Good staff you can rely on, seats easily wiped down and warm friendly atmosphere
I'd ensure you have some vegan and gluten free options. Sorry to be that guy 😀
One that's open past 4pm, they all seem to close early, not just winter hours. Fortunately there was one in Edzell open till 5 so I got a coffee to warm up after cycling Glen Esk today.
After a walk up Glen Clova on Saturday I went in to the Clova hotel at 3.55 and was told they had stopped serving coffee at 3.30
On Sunday I was in Kirriemuir and the only open cafe was closing up at 3pm though the owner did offer to do a takeaway.
To be honest, I'd not bother.
As above, the modern mountain biker is far removed from those who came before, those who would be grateful for a cup of something warm and a bit of cake or a baked potato. You'll have endless arguments with the coffee tosspots about the quality of your beans, the method of grinding, the temperature of the product, the Fairtradeness of the pottery, the sustainability of the wood used to make the tables, the traceability of the wheat used in the sandwiches, the organic standard of the dairy products, the free rangeness of the eggs, the vegan-ness of the vegetables, the amount and/or the crispiness of the bacon, and above all the price of everything and the attitude of the minimum wage staff.
I suggest fleecing the ingrates...
Soup. For warming cold bodies after rides.
Dog friendly
Somewhere I can keep an eye on the bikes
Hearty staples like beans on toast rather than poncy panini.
Home made cake
Decent hot chocolate
'crikey' Crikey.
ah Edzell, memories... Me and my mum came up from Northumberland and stayed in a campsite just near Edzell when we went to Robert Gordon uni open day (which I ended up going to) some years back. The autumn days up there are something special.
I want pretentious coffee and artisanal sourdough sandwiches. Why is it cool to like crap stuff? Maybe have a shed outside to serve muck to those who want it. I bet those people just bring their own brews and food anyway though.
poncy panini
What's poncy about a toasted sandwich? Have I wandered into the 1970s by mistake?
Somewhere to hang wet clothing. I heard that it can rain a bit in that old there Norway.
One that gives you an oatcake with your breakfast (it was my choice to have extra bacon instead of black pudding).
Yonderman at Wardlow Mires. More of a roadside cafe than a bikers tbh
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50669428742_27ce20b959_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50669428742_27ce20b959_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2kcu4So ]2020-12-01_07-59-45[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/85252658@N05/ ]davetheblade[/url], on Flickr
Like all the best places.
Busy enough to have a good buzz about but not too busy where you have to queue for half an hour to get a seat.
I've nothing against a panini but I do object to a decent portion of basic grub being removed from the menu and replaced with something half the size at the same price. I want fueling at times like that, not entertaining.
I admit I'm not the best person to comment; as a veteran of day trips to Glentress/Innerleithen from Manchester I'm very much a proponent of finish ride and **** off home ASAP. I was the same as a roadie; when the cafe stops happened, I'd go and do a loop to keep ticking over and get more miles in.
Like Robert/Phillipa Millar said I'll have cake and coffee after the ride...
Traditional cafes with cooked breakfasts and large mugs of tea are great.
Modern cafes with flat whites and gluten free everything are also great.
I just want a clean place that sells decent grub at a decent price.
I miss the cheesey beans on toast at the old Hub cafe at GT. And the HUGE chocolate flapjacks. Happy times.
Somewhere to hang wet clothing. I heard that it can rain a bit in that old there Norway.
Got that one covered ;). Used to live in pretty much the wettest place in Norway, got sick of that so only gone and moved myself to the 'warmest place in Norway'.
Great coffee and cheaper coffee
Weird tea and normal ‘just get me warm’ tea
Agree with this. Also a cup of tea should not be the same price as your expensive coffee.
From a riders pov soup and a roll in winter. Ice coffee in summer.
Somewhere to lock the bike.
Sheltered from the wind so you can slump outside. Good phone signal.
Nice view, ideally of the sea as there is usually something going on.
So that's basically Billy Winters in Portland Harbour.
Fast, value and filling.
Basically a refuelling spot and then off.
Fond memories of those flapjacks at Glentress! Grew up riding there as a teenager, still go back for a trip every time I'm in the UK. The area I live in now feels very Tweed Valley-esque, just 10yrs behind in development.
Track pump
Tool wall
Outide tap
Clean bogs with hot water not 30c tepid water
no smoking on the premise / terrace . sorry but you stink
usb ports a plenty
29 posts and so many boxes to tick
Tool wall
Don't even think about it. Everything on it will be lost / stolen / broken within a day and you'll have every ungrateful sod in the car park demanding to know why you haven't got the specific thingummy for their proprietary wotsit. Or you'll have some pillock who's decided, seeing as all the tools are there, to strip his headset down and who then loses all the bearings down a gap in the decking. Way WAY more trouble than it's worth!
How different is the cafe culture in Norway compared to the UK?
Also a cup of tea should not be the same price as your expensive coffee.
The majority of the cost isn’t in the tea bag, it’s in the rent, the wages, the infrastructure around it. The total difference in cost between coffee and tea is sod all.
If you actually want to make money:
Bought in cakes don't have enough margin
Same goes for any and all confectionary
Watch the pricing on cans etc, shop around and stock up on deals
Good margin:
Hot drinks
Home made tray bakes, then round cakes (carrot cake etc)
Scoop ice cream
Toasties & Panninis
I've just retired from the business after 15 years of a cafe at an FC forest, message me if you want any help.
Friendly staff. Fast service. Warm.
Everything else comes after.
Don't try to pack too many tables , nothing worse than yo canny get in your seat due to the big guy with his legs 45° taking up all the room
Ban Lochs and Glen buses as they hog the bog for the next while
Contactless payments, I only get cash for Xmas and birthdays and I'm over 40😁.
A hatch to buy from so you can hold your bike if on your own.
Water bowls for the dogs.
Toilets you can take your bike in.
Very very good coffee, that's made properly and not burned. You can have the best roast in the world but if the barista burns it with 100C water, you might as well drink instant coffee cat p*!
If riding:
-Somewhere to sit that is suitable for well over an hour of lounging with your mates. If we're all spending close to 10 quid each (coffee, loaded toastie), I think that's reasonable and I wouldn't feel guilty
-Ideally substantial savoury option (eg toastie)
Agree with all of the above re: friendly, etc. A cafe where you build a relationship w/ staff>customer, will always be a winning formula for so many reasons!
It needs to be warm and dry. I used to go to a cafe that was popular with walkers and cyclists and most of the time it was chilly and the windows running with condensation. Then the owner fitted a woodburner and the transformation was amazing because of the forced ventilation caused by the stove, along with the warmth.
Oh and it needs rubber covers on the chair legs to stop them scraping on the floor.
Very very good coffee, that’s made properly and not burned. You can have the best roast in the world but if the barista burns it with 100C water, you might as well drink instant coffee cat p*!
There you go...
You've gone out to ride your bike, not go on a coffee tasting tour of the world!
Great food and coffee. Friendly staff. Plenty of bike racks. Plenty of seating, indoors and out. Ability to cope with groups of 10 cyclists arriving at a time.
You’ve gone out to ride your bike, not go on a coffee tasting tour of the world!
The two are not mutually exclusive?
No they're not, but as always here in STW land, dicks will be a dicking.
It's like when people talk about opening a bike shop and ask what people would want to see; the tosspots always want a coffee machine or a coffee bar with a 'barista'.
If it's a fancy coffee you're after, bugger off to a coffee shop; it's not like there's a lack of the bloody things.
Very very good coffee, that’s made properly and not burned. You can have the best roast in the world but if the barista burns it with 100C water, you might as well drink instant coffee cat p*!
Isn't this a myth?
Eggs Benedict.
As a cyclist I've never really been one for cafes, but back in my rock climbing days they were an essential. Largely because way back then training tended to consist of 10 pints on a Friday night before climbing on a massive hangover on Saturday. Anyone old enough to remember the Lovers' Leap in Stoney Middleton before it became an Indian Restaurant?
A "full set" and a pint of tea please.
Bernie's in Ingleton used to be a good place to fuel up before sliding into some dark damp crevasse below Yorkshire's limestone.
If I ran a cafe, I'd kind of base it on the Italian 'trattoria' where the food is homemade, the menu is limited (and seasonal), the portions are generous and prices affordable.
Somewhere to sit that is suitable for well over an hour of lounging with your mates. If we’re all spending close to 10 quid each (coffee, loaded toastie), I think that’s reasonable and I wouldn’t feel guilty
I think thats pretty unreasonable myself - an hour for a cuppa and a butty?
to answer the OP - for me - large portions at competitive prices and none of this mocachinezpressolatte nonsense. Just have coffee. It really bugs me to have to ask for an americano when all I want is a normal coffee
There's a new cafe opened near me and to be fair everyone seems to rave about it, but to me its all show and no substance.
Don't spend thousands on a flash coffee machine then use kids with no training to use it
Don't have funny shaped rocks of sugar then make people ask for one- then don't give it to them so they have to come to the counter and ask again
Don't sell cakes that are so dry there are cracks in the icing
I'm not there to buy arts and crafts
Speed, simplicity, team, margin, half decent kids menu
Everyone hates slow service, too much faff makes you slow to serve, keep it high quality but simple, you need a good motivated team to have speed, you need to make a profit to pay the team and yourself and the bills, people will pay extra if they think it's good value/ a bit special, you need to think about who uses your cafe and when they do, different times will have different customers and families hate crap options
If people say xyz cafe was great, ask why it's not still going
Oh and it needs rubber covers on the chair legs to stop them scraping on the floor.
this and wall coverings that absorb noise.
‘trattoria’ where the food is homemade, the menu is limited (and seasonal), the portions are generous and prices affordable.
and this
and staff that smile, counter service and diners clear their own table, but enough staff to keep counters clean. and be organized
We have these bike repair stations dotted all over Melbourne, perfect for running repairs and nobody can pinch the tools.
At the risk of a boring answer....
Location is obviously the most important factor if you have a particular demographic in mind.
Next question is what kind of a place is it going to be? Sit-down table service? Counter with some seating? Hole-in-the-wall kiosk with plenty of outdoor seating, long bench tables etc?
Cakes and coffee? Bacon sandwiches? Table service meals?
I think it all depends on the particulars of the riding spot, what you are expecting in terms of numbers and the available premises.
I would ask if you could achieve what you wanted using a coffee cart/food-truck type thing? Certainly in the fair weather months.
Australia is pretty the industry's global model for independent coffee shops - and (there are outliers obviously) but the standard is extremely high. It's not the be-all-and end all, but if you are serving bad coffee - you will fail. Dunno anything about Norway obvs.
At the risk of being labeled a bellend by Crikey (a badge I would wear with pride!), it's pretty easy to serve good coffee, but you need to decide whether that's what you want to do or is your approach going to be: "to serve the worst coffee I can without losing customers". I can't understand opening an independent café with the latter philosophy in mind.
A barista is just somebody that's adequately trained to use the coffee machine to a decent standard - nothing knobby about that. You can obviously train somebody to press the buttons and produce brown liquid in about 5 minutes, but the variation in quality between the coffee produced by THAT person and somebody that's had a 90 minute training course, is the difference between the very worst instant coffee you've ever had, and turning to your mate and saying: "wow, this coffee is great!". The main factor in coffee quality at a particular cafe is whether the owner/person-operating-the coffee-machine actually GAS about what they are doing.
A good breakfast is a must, pints of tea, magazines to thumb through all priced reasonably.
Like us all we have eaten and shared some fantastic places and some that are as cold as the Russian stepp on a winters day
My memories take to to Bernie’s Cafe in Ingleton in 1988 as what a cafe should be
Packed, buzzing and great staff ( apart from Bernie who was always a miserable git)
The majority of the cost isn’t in the tea bag, it’s in the rent, the wages, the infrastructure around it. The total difference in cost between coffee and tea is sod all.
I get that there are fixed cost but coffee machines are very expensive additional bit of machine to cover costs of in addition tea is a lot quicker to make. The tea shouldn't be paying for the coffe.
Why does everywhere else on their than coffee shop seem to be able to do a cup of tea for £1 or so then in a coffee shop it's over £2? Its because people are conditioned to the price for their drink.
Since it's Norway - Hvitdame as cake of choice. Good mix of pastries and savoury food - pizza? Indoor and outdoor seating (either open or with a simple shelter), plenty of space, good mix of table sixes but not rammed in. Plenty of bike parking places and basic tools / spares available. Local map / information on routes or trails.
Pretty much the above for me + big pots of tea available (although not sure about in Norway). Speedy service is normally key for me but in the location you describe it probably wouldn't be as important as lunch time cafe in the city.
Good coffee or decent tea in a mug that I can just chuck into my face while I'm eating some of your lovely homemade veggie food. I am happy to pay for nice things but please don't take the piss.
Zero faff. I don't want to be waiting ages and I don't want to be buggering about shifting dirty dishes off a table so I can sit down.
Friendly table service and not too much choice. Have a one or two ****ing [i]delicious[/i] hot dishes per day that may or may not include a massive breakfast. A good bean chili or chana gobi would be a decent veggie alternative to the Belly Buster Breakfast. I want something that I can just shovel in if I've been riding a bit. If you can build a reputation for always being able to supply good, tasty and ethical food to those who want it then you'll be on to a winner.
No children, babies or dogs. Thanks.
And that ^
Tj +1, 90 mins is ripping the piss.
I don't, and never really have, do the biking cafe stop thing, I guess it's more of a roadie thing, or you guys down south who MTB in semi urban areas?.
So not interested in bike storage and muck proof seats etc.
Good coffee, good cake, and a friendly smile.
And no dogs, absolutely 100% on that one.
A cafe stop can be if you're just out and about on your bike, like I might ride up to my mam's* which is 30-odd miles and fancy a cuppa or something, it doesn't necessarily have to be A Destination as such.
* not during lockdown, obvs.
Dogs are welcome by me, the kids can **** off though.
Not a cafe, but love going to the Three Poets pub at Ashover on a wintry Sunday for a carvery - sat by the fire, and lots of dogs
Kids are fine, if they're not, it's their parents that can **** off 🙂
Slowoldman, I spent years going in the Lover's Leap, hungover from the Moon and from sleeping in the woodshed. He had a very distinctive way of announcing a 'toasted tea cake'. Warm and wet was about as good as it got there, do the opposite.
Dont worry crikey. I will let the local cycling positive cafes down here know they are being silly having half a dozen tools on gear cables and a tracknpump. Ditto all the lifts in france and the garages in majorca
When I was a lad, the perfect stop was a small transport caff.
If the vans and trucks stopped there you were guaranteed a decent sized mug of tea and a big slab of whatever you ate. It was decent tasting fuel food, not Michelin star.
Coffee was Nescafe. 🙂
Basic wipe clean furniture, very quick service, usually roasting warm in winter and open at unfashionable hours.
Perfect.
Simple decent food in big portions, decent coffee, good bike parking with visibility and functional interior so you can pile in covered in mud.
From cafes of yore something like a mash-up of Pete's Eats, Roaches Tea Room (mmmm cheesy staffs oatcakes) and the Woodbine. Definitely not like the Grindleford. That place made the Lover's Leap look good.
Bernie’s in Ingleton used to be a good place to fuel up before sliding into some dark damp crevasse below Yorkshire’s limestone.
Ah, pre-caving breakfast would have been the truckstop in Nunney Catch on the way to the Mendips. It had a truck-shaped wooden counter and served massive portions. Ideal as I wouldn't then eat until home time, bar a helmet sized flapjack from the newsagent next to Bats in Wells.
This one looks good but I've only ever driven past it:
bike security, then coffee.
I want the coffee to taste at least as good as making a French press at home with Lidl ground coffee (the Indian Arabica is surprisingly good!). Far too many cafes think it acceptable to serve weak pish. Nowt wrong with a good filter coffee, it doesn't have to all be espresso.
I am asking because I live in a spot in Norway where riding is really on the up, this year especially has seen a huge influx in visitors for riding, trails are being built, facilities are being added and people know the place as an MTB destination. Thing is, we have nowhere for people to meet to start, pause or end a ride, there’s no hub or info point, there’s no hang out place and it seems we could do with one. So what does it need to be, from a rider’s point of view?
I think asking that on a largely UK centric forum could be a hiding to nothing. Norwegians are very different to brits. Prices are very different. Attitudes are different. Keep in mind that as a Cafe you are first and foremost a business - a place where people meet, hangout, and buy very little is a bad business. I'm surprised there is no infrastructure though - are there Cross Country Ski Trails in the area? Where do people go for their waffles and brown cheese?
Don't focus too heavily on it being a 'bikers' cafe unless you are located inside a trail centre. Five days a week the clientele for most cafes is retired people and mothers with young children.
My list:
- friendly staff who greet you with a smile
- tea served in a pot with enough for 2 or 3 cups
- a selection of awesome cake
- old, well worn leather sofas to lounge around on whilst chatting/eating/drinking
- paninis and sarnies
- fried breakfasts
- somewhere safe to leave your bike
- under cover outside seating area
Great coffee and cheaper coffee
Agree with this. If you ask me what size i want my flat white clearly you don't know any thing, and if you hand me a flat white the size of a latte you REALLY don't know anything.
I like a good cake but it also needs to be fresh, I hate it when they sell you old stale cake
If you weren't in Norway I'd suggest a trip to Cafe Velo Verde near Bingham. Probably the best thought out cycle focused cafe I've been to.
Cafes, don't you just love them. The tea is too expensive, I don't like the way they do their eggs etc etc
For me as I am sure others its about who runs the place (or doesn't run the place)
Also are we talking about an outdoor pursuits cafe's or where you go with the other half for a brunch with a bit of rocket and pine nuts on the side.
My all time favorite whilst peering through those rose tinted glasses will always be Bernie's Cafe in Ingleton circa 1987.
Get in there at about 08.30 and it was ram jammed, the tea was served in pint mugs and the breakfasts huge (as I remember) arrived in about 10 minutes.
Morning Cafes in an outdoor environment for me should be reasonably priced (not dirt cheap) and provide a full range of breakfasts, trail nibbles, magazines to read through and provide tea in quantities measured in gallons.
This choice of cafes was by the way a close call between Bernie's and Pete's Eats (another icon)
I think asking that on a largely UK centric forum could be a hiding to nothing. Norwegians are very different to brits.
This. You'll need a good selection of sheep's heads and a place to spit 'snus'.
Again, besides the suitability of fittings food and such is region specific. Your average Norwegian probably wouldn't touch half the stuff mentioned unless it was a novelty. By all means do a novelty option if people are interested but otherwise keep it simple.