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I don't understand such things, ref: tony-teacake
Influencing, casting doubt, sucking people in to adverse points of view, destabilising... etc.
Ah, a double bluff variant bot…
I don't get it either. No idea how it works or what the point is really.
I don’t understand such things
As I understand it, there are posts and whole thread(s?) that are "written" by AI 'bots'. On the surface vaguely believable, but with a few clues.
Why? No idea. I presume some kind of world domination / hacker / need links / spam.
I'm selling a car at the moment, and I note that most of the emails and texts are auto / bot messages now.
I'm sure there's going to be more of it.
I suspect the point is to see how well people are fooled really. This one always seemed to boil down to
1. validate people by mentioning their name, 'friend', saying 'good post' or referencing something said in a previous post
2. jam in a block of text from a relevant site
3. ask an open question to keep things going
A bit like a troll but cheaper and less lonely spaffing
Avoid Twitter and Facebook if you don’t get it. Much easier to clean up forums than it is social media.
I was about to post a similar question on the thread. What is the point, and unless something similar is posted like a bazillion times across loads of different platforms there isn’t a chance in hell that any population group are going to actually have their way of thinking altered. Especially when it mostly gets shot down in flames.
What is the point, and unless something similar is posted like a bazillion times across loads of different platforms there isn’t a chance in hell that any population group are going to actually have their way of thinking altered
It's not about people and opinion.
So what is the aim then?
Foreign actors influencing public opinion for their own political gain.
... or what the point is really
It's not always going to be obvious, but when carried out over many years, or even decades, it could have a significant effect. See Donald Trump. Of course, it's largely unquantifiable and very difficult to prove the actual impact, which is one of the reasons it's such an effective tool.
So what is the aim then?
On this forum it might just be to see how good it is getting. It was a good few posts in before it started to smell. Tweak the algorithm, repeat, see how far you get
"Yes, you're right about [insert keywords from previous post].
This reinforces my original point, which I'll repeat for you now."
AI bot chat is very similar to the way many politicians speak. Perhaps they receive the same media training?
Hmm, I’d do it to build a reputation for the bot that tries to establish itself a real user, as its doing human activity.
I’d do this for a lot of bots so I have a load of fake ‘real user’accounts, then I’d start using these to give likes on my political views/shopping opinions which would then push these opinions further up into the equations which decide what is shown to you on your feeds 🙂
Look up GPT-3, it's an open AI that people can use themselves to build these things. A couple of years ago one posted on Reddit for a week before people noticed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPT-3
That's an interesting point leffeboy, what do you think of the future for smelling bots?
On this forum it might just be to see how good it is getting. It was a good few posts in before it started to smell. Tweak the algorithm, repeat, see how far you get
Sort of like a Turing Test.
So just to confirm - we are working on the assumption that TT is 100% a computer program with no human involvement using an algorithm and access to Google in order to create the post and then answer the replies?
If this is the case I’m moderately impressed! How long before it becomes self aware?😵💫
Chewkw was v1, seems to have an upgrade to v2 recently, this was maybe v3…
Sort of like a Turing Test
The thing is, to pass that here all you'd need to do is post on one of the politics threads.
You could just repeat the same post for hundreds of pages with nothing more than a slight change to the wording and we'd ask assume it was absolutely genuine.
That’s an interesting point leffeboy, what do you think of the future for smelling bots?
IMHO it’ll probably be the having to lose the anonymity of registering with just an email and password and provide real world verifiable ID to prove your a real person.
You could just repeat the same post for hundreds of pages with nothing more than a slight change to the wording and we’d ask assume it was absolutely genuine.
+1
Ahh but that’s the catch affirmation an reiteration is a human trait 🙂
Sort of like a Turing Test
I loved that one of the factors in calling out Teacake was that his posts were TOO well written 😂
Possibly unfair to cite the politicisation threads but if you look at something trending on Facebook with a million comments, would you even bother to comment considering that it’s unlikely that anyones really reading the comments,as it would probably take a fair few days but people do(still post comments).
The thread in question, is it the Two stubborn people create a ridiculous moment ? 😉
I think you're a respectful metre behind on this sirromj
What? Posting without having read the preceding comments? On STW? My gosh, the end times are upon us! Save us Tony_T.
It was a good few posts in before it started to smell.
It stank from when they started the thread.
^ exactly.
It's making me realise that growing amounts on social media is now influenced by bots. Either direct posts or people that have been influenced by them. From spammy FB marketplace posts, to political views.
I *think* that some of the long term aim is about having as wide an influence as possible, across as many platforms as possible. This then can be used to either slowly steer opinion over time, or use all platforms at once in a 'thunderclap' moment of false news.
I guess they are also checking the site security and sign up system - so again one day perhaps brute force or hacking can take place?
IANAISE
It stank from when they started the thread
Well, for me it did, but some people were still responding when it was clearly a bot & other people were saying so.
Hmm, I’d do it to build a reputation for the bot that tries to establish itself a real user, as its doing human activity.
I’d do this for a lot of bots so I have a load of fake ‘real user’accounts, then I’d start using these to give likes on my political views/shopping opinions which would then push these opinions further up into the equations which decide what is shown to you on your feeds
Makes me glad that this place is my only online social activity. Wouldn’t the above just work for the feeds the bots were using across the various accounts? Sorry, bit thick when it comes to how this works and I’m now wondering which forumites might actually be bots!
Yep and gathering data on people to target them in the future for bog standard marketing or nefarious political mechanations.
Image of funkmasterp earlier
Wouldn’t the above just work for the feeds the bots were using across the various accounts?
I don't have the figures, but I'm pretty sure the number of fake accounts across the main social media platforms have been estimated in the billions. I think it's easy to underestimate the scale of influence, which at some point trickles into every day life offline, as people repeat what they've learnt online.
Whether it's political, commercial, or other, the actual AI side of things is a fast moving technology, making the the future a bit scary. It could quickly become very hard to determine what's real and what isn't.
So, doing a bit of digging I found Mr Teacake has a hundred odd posts over on the MSE forum, mostly posting within the house Buying, Selling and Renting board.
Bot or not, the entire thing stank. I appreciate this place does come up in google searches but is that more to do with algorithm providing confirmation bias or actual top hits?
. I think it’s easy to underestimate the scale of influence, which at some point trickles into every day life offline, as people repeat what they’ve learnt online.
Yep , I think the Cambridge Analytica stuff sorta pushed this out into the open.
It’s eye opening stuff.
It stank from when they started the thread.
To some people but not for everyone. That doesn't mean that they were more gullible, just that they were more willing to give the benefit of the doubt and have a discussion. At the moment these things seem to be more about keeping things going than influencing but I'm sure at some point this will change.
For example, yesterday I got what was obviously an automated call saying there had been dodgy activity on my ID and bank and before they issued an arrest warrant in my name I should press '1' on my phone to talk to the police. Obviously this was junk and once I pressed '1' I would get passed on to the human handler to do the final sale. With a bit of voice recognition and AI they might have been able to have more of a conversation and get more people to press 1 and increase their click through rate. I pressed 1 anyway as it was obvious and as I was walking to get a sandwich thought it would be fun to tie up the human for a bit.
To some people but not for everyone. That doesn’t mean that they were more gullible, just that they were more willing to give the benefit of the doubt and have a discussion.
Isn’t that the definition of gullible?
Or it was bot playing bot 😉
I officially don’t trust anything online anymore and think the OP is a bot. It started this thread as research in to how some guessed it was a bot 🤔
I pressed 1 anyway as it was obvious and as I was walking to get a sandwich thought it would be fun to tie up the human for a bit.
Unless of course pressing one just connects you to a premium rate number in Djibouti and the first you'll know about it is a 600 phone bill at month end. Or agrees to receive premium rate texts once a month etc.
Its not like these things are going to be entirely honest about what you're actually agreeing to with your button press is it?
To paraphrase what has been said on the scam bike sale thread, they're not as dumb as you think they are, you're probably exactly as dumb as they think you are.
Just stick to liking cat pics on insta and Facebook and you’ll be fine 🙂
To paraphrase what has been said on the scam bike sale thread, they’re not as dumb as you think they are, you’re probably exactly as dumb as they think you are.
Yep the only way to win the game is not to play.
I doubt in this case it was intended to achieve any aims - I think this one was purely using the forum to make the bot better. It's been a little while since I learnt about it so I'm probably talking bollocks, but my understanding is that you have to teach e.g. a neural network by feeding it information and scoring the output. So by replying you're giving it examples of the correct responses which in turn help it sound more like a real person.
Isn’t that the definition of gullible?
Hooked a few of the usual ‘I just want to debate’ crowd though didn’t it.
Makes you think.
Isn’t that the definition of gullible?
No it's the definition of 'agreeableness'.
Bot or no bot, someone programmed that content and therefore it represents a perfectly valid idea. The problem is not the ideas expressed by bots but rather their prevalence and that is ONLY a problem if your view of the world is based on prevalence, which of course almost everyone's view of the world is. It's the 'system one' versus 'system two' heuristic, which we are all prone to.
If you train yourself to operate more in system two, then the prevalence of otherwise minority or automated bot ideas is neither here nor there.
I thought everyone on here, but me, was a bot, and I still need some convincing that they're not.
I thought everyone on here, but me, was a bot, and I still need some convincing that they’re not.
I can fix that for you 
Ah found ‘that’ thread - well interesting, it was doing pretty good 🙂
Am I a bot? I just don’t know anymore. Who thinks house prices are going to crash soon? Asking for a friend.
therefore it represents a perfectly valid idea.
Not all ideas are perfectly valid. If I keep spouting a plainly bollocks idea for all you debaters to tell me I’m wrong, someone is going to agree with me, and your constant interaction with me is giving me a platform, until lots of people agree with me.
Eg:
Flat earth
Brexit
QAnon
Racism/sexism doesn’t exist.
Wasn't this also about the 6th thread in as many months on that exact topic? Started by "someone" with zero input on the near identical threads. "Someone" who could have answered their question quicker by reading said identical threads than by typing out the initial post?
I appreciate all of that probably only serves to make it look more genuine.
What is the point, and unless something similar is posted like a bazillion times across loads of different platforms there isn’t a chance in hell that any population group are going to actually have their way of thinking altered.
I know virtually nothing about computer AI, but was under the impression (from news reports) that, where Russian bots and the Trump election/Brexit debate were concerned, changing the views of populations were exactly the point. People tend to like to fit in, and if there are a lot of 'people' seemingly expressing a similar view you may be more liable to change your own to conform.
I gather that there's a 'machine learning' aspect to AI too, it learns from 'experience'. Just out of interest, will an AI bot that's been programmed to promote a point of view, always 'learn' to be more adept and human like at pushing that point of view, or is it theoretically possibly turn a bot and change its 'mind'?
I thought everyone on here, but me, was a bot, and I still need some convincing that they’re not.
Maybe not everyone, but in "Alien" fashion, I think that we could have some interesting discussions trying to work out which of the long term forum regulars is actually the robot.
This is like The Thing STW forum edition.
To paraphrase what has been said on the scam bike sale thread, they’re not as dumb as you think they are, you’re probably exactly as dumb as they think you are.
You are correct of course. Even though I don't know of any way to connect me to a premium rate number by typing a number on my phone that doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. It also wouldn't match how I know this scam works but that doesn't mean that it hasn't changed. Don't engage is the only rule 🙁
Bot or no bot, someone programmed that content and therefore it represents a perfectly valid idea.
It really it doesn’t.
They also don’t have to programme the content. They can generate content based on searching forums, media posts and other sources.
It pretty much is being gullible, I’d say look it up however the word was removed from the dictionary.
I was suspicious of Mr Teacake from the start, and Googled some of his initial text without finding it. I didn't spot him as a bot - but now I look back at 'his' responses, it's obvious. So posting here may have helped the bot refine its posts, but it's also helped me spot bots in future.
I'm 50/50 on whether the purpose of the bot posting is to develop itself or to generally create a feeling of unease and doom among the population, which would suit some political purpose quite well.
This is all very weird, and a bit scary if I'm honest.
I have more questions.
1) Why would a bot post about house prices crashing, who benefits?
2) As the bot's are all over social media. Does that mean when somebody posts something negative about this gov't and it's Rwanda plan for instance, and there's a reply saying something like, 'what else are we supposed to do?' It's a bot posting that reply?
Ah, thank you greybeard
It’s less about changing opinions on the surface bit more about creating a new larger foundation for a perspective that once seemed fringe…. Building a new monolith from the ground up needs momentum and substance.
Thay have just been sent out into the wild to learn and grow early days I suppose.
Genuine question how long would it take a program to scan singletracks posts/activity to form an well rounded bot that could interact?
Would it drive a t6 and have a pizza oven?
Genuine question how long would it take a program to scan singletracks posts/activity to form an well rounded bot that could interact?
Does it have to use the search function like rest of us?
Chewkw was v1, seems to have an upgrade to v2 recently, this was maybe v3…
Just because people cannot convince me of their views / perspective they have to consider me as a bot. Life is too short to dwell on that or argue back tbh. Bot, no, but zombie maggot like everyone else, yes.
program to scan singletracks posts/activity to form an well rounded bot that could interact?
So would a bot suggest hammering frozen sausages into someone’s lawn?
Foreign actors influencing public opinion for their own political gain.
… or what the point is really
It’s not always going to be obvious,
Theres a war going on in which one of the weapons is Economic Sanctions. Sanctions that we in the west are funding individually through a higher cost of living. We're effectively buying war bonds with with our Utility Bills and at the petrol pump. We've all pretty much agreed to do that without actually being asked. All the thread was doing was making us question the consequences of what we're doing by shaking our faith in property. "give people something to conserve and they'll become conservatives" someone once said - people are often banking their future in the house the own - its the rock the cling to and its how they congratulate themselves for how hard they work ('I paid x for it and now its worth y'- whats really happening is your money is worth less than when you bought it) . It doesn't have to convince anyone, you don't have to believe anything - its job is just put the a question in someones thoughts that wasn't there before.
It doesn’t have to convince anyone, you don’t have to believe anything – its job is just put the a question in someones thoughts that wasn’t there before.
Or perhaps it is your/our own "bot" that are posting as an "agent" to learn the algorithm from people in order to "experiment or control" on the available sample. Yes, your/our own bot. All govts (including your own) want to control own people as much as anyone else. They have the intention (power) and objectives (no dissenting voice).
Take the example of the viewpoints/perspectives put forward by most on this forum, the moment an alternative viewpoints/perspectives are being put forward, they are immediately being "censored" or rejected with various justifications. If you put this group of people in power and in charged of all technologies, what do you think will happen? Yes, you will have one accepted viewpoint(s) only because they are "morally right", the notion of moral is now being used as the justification to suppress other perspectives (good or bad).
what do you think of the future for smelling bots?
Things didn’t end well for Cheesebot.
Yes, your/our own bot.
We really don’t need one, we have you.
We really don’t need one, we have you.
There is a different between a bot and a zombie maggot.
A bot may or may not give up in their attempts but will definitely Not call everyone a zombie maggot.
If a bot starts to call everyone a zombie maggot. The bot is broken and the person who programmed it needs to be performance reviewed.
objectives (no dissenting voice).
Property ownership is how our government seeks to quell dissent - increasing private ownership was a union-busting move. The notion that your property and the value you place in it are under threat is encouraging dissent.
Just because people cannot convince me of their views / perspective they have to consider me as a bot. Life is too short to dwell on that or argue back tbh. Bot, no, but zombie maggot like everyone else, yes.
Spoken like a true bot!
I *think* that some of the long term aim is about having as wide an influence as possible, across as many platforms as possible. This then can be used to either slowly steer opinion over time, or use all platforms at once in a ‘thunderclap’ moment of false news.
Absolutely this. Just look at how the drip-drip of stories about the 'Nasty EU' via various places over a decade or more ended up with us having Brexit. These bots are just automating and speeding up the process.
It stank from when they started the thread
Well, for me it did, but some people were still responding when it was clearly a bot & other people were saying so.
I was suspicious of Mr Teacake from the start, and Googled some of his initial text without finding it. I didn’t spot him as a bot – but now I look back at ‘his’ responses, it’s obvious. So posting here may have helped the bot refine its posts, but it’s also helped me spot bots in future.
All these ^^
I have to say I was initially perplexed/suspicious right from the start when I saw 'another' house price thread pop up on a saturday afternoon and it generate loads of replies very quickly. I had no idea it was AI, I really thought it was a journalist type person doing some sort of weird journalistic research thing for reasons I not know why. That kind of repulsed me and was pleased when a few people clearly started thinking it was suss too and started calling it out. I still had no idea it was a bot though, I still thought it was a real person.
If nothing else it's a massive distraction, we are all still talking about it 24hrs later. Kind of dead cat if you like.
As someone said above it has helped spot bots - although to be honest its hard not to be suspicious of the writing style and weird errors - I mean, who actually writes that way? And so much of it, potentially on a phone?
Absolutely this. Just look at how the drip-drip of stories about the ‘Nasty EU’ via various places over a decade or more ended up with us having Brexit. These bots are just automating and speeding up the process.
Absolutely
If nothing else it’s a massive distraction, we are all still talking about it 24hrs later.
I think it's positive that it's being talked about for what it is and we're not still contributing to the thread.
I was suspicious of Mr Teacake from the start, and Googled some of his initial text without finding it. I didn’t spot him as a bot
Same here - I thought it was some dude picking from a pre-prepared set of fairly generic paragraphs. It did become more obvious after a couple more of its posts and I decided not to help improve the algorithm.
One widely accepted view of the increasing prevalence of this sort of "content" is that its purpose isn't to make you believe something but to make you believe nothing.
It’s likely to have been somewhere between the two. Mostly bot interactions, but not totally autonomous. One individual nannying many bots over multiple platforms. At least that’s how the paid for stuff works.
The thing is, this is starting to (again) question why I'm part of this online world.
How do I tell the difference between bot, zombie maggot, troll and genuine person anymore?
I came off a lot of SM, it's been good. I went back on FB to sell my car, and found I have the same concerns and frustration.
Meta, meta data, bots, personal data and all that. It's a worry.
I'm starting to wonder if we're heading into interwebz 3.0, a world where reality just isn't clear, and the cost of our digital tools (in terms of data and bot-led thinking adjustments) may be too high for me...
I need to ride my bike more with real people.
Kelvin has it.
The bot would alert if for certain replies it wouldn’t be sure of that would generate a user response before it would start again.
You see bots tag each other on facebook new pages
@bot2 look at this you like this
@bot1 think yes I do that’s interesting
I think it’s positive that it’s being talked about for what it is and we’re not still contributing to the thread.
Agreed, but at the same time we are not talking about partygate/NIP/non-doms/rwanda/brexit etc etc etc
It was amusing watching the thread develop after the initial "and why shouldn't someone join a cycling forum and make their very first post a subject that has nothing to do with cycling" defenders had replied.
Reminded me of a scene from "The Inbetweeners" where Jay asks a black kid at a nightclub to sell him some drugs. The black lad is deeply offended "you think I'm a drug dealer just 'cos I'm black????" Jay apologizes then the kid says "so do you want some drugs then?". Jay says "so you are a drug dealer then . . ."