[Closed] What is the point of the national speed limit sign?

It just means to me if I get pulled on the motorbike I'm less likely to go to jail.

However anything with 50> is as fast as you fancy in my books.

Why not do away with any ambiguity and instead have signs simply stating the speed limit?

Why not do away with any ambiguity and instead have signs simply stating the speed limit?

Why have multiple signs when you only need one?

Shouldnt leave any ambiguity.

If you dont know what the sign signifies, for the road you are on, and the vehicle you are in, there is an argument that perhaps you shouldnt be driving.

What would that sign look like? The limit is different for different vehicles.

There are plenty 50, 60, 70 signs out there - doesn't mean you are allowed to do that speed regardless of what you're driving/riding.

However anything with 50> is as fast as you fancy in my books.

Idiot.

To me it always suggests a bit of ambiguity,

No it's the opposite. As pointed out there's more than just cars and motorcycles on the road. If you put 70 then you're suggesting anyone can do 70.

people are supposed to learn what road signs mean and pass a test before they get a licence so there should be no ambiguity.

It's not really that difficult a concept, though, is it? Do you really need a sign to differentiate between single carriageways where you can do 60 and duals where you can do 70?

What would that sign look like? The limit is different for different vehicles.

This, NSL is 40, 56, 60 or 70 depending on what you happen to be driving at the time.

Which I always thought raised an interesting question on motorways, when the variable limit shows 60, what's the limit for HGV's?

To me it always suggests a bit of ambiguity

Eh?

You just quoted exactly what it means in your OP!

This, NSL is 40, 56, 60 or 70 depending on what you happen to be driving at the time.

Which I always thought raised an interesting question on motorways, when the variable limit shows 60, what's the limit for HGV's?

You missed 50 mph (tailers, some motor homes etc on a single carriage way NSL)

HGVs just stick to their normal speed limit or the restriction, whatever is lower.

HGVs just stick to 'their' normal speed limit or the restriction, whatever is [s]slower.[/s]faster

If you changed NSL signs to 60/70, then you would have to install thousands of repeater signs to make it legal. NSL zones, 30 zones with lampposts, and bits of Dartmoor are the only roads where repeaters are not required. (NSL zones with lampposts can have NSL repeaters so you know it's not 30).

Shouldnt leave any ambiguity.

If you dont know what the sign signifies, for the road you are on, and the vehicle you are in, there is an argument that perhaps you shouldnt be driving.

^+1

After every road journey I return with arguments that **% of the people I saw driving should not be driving.

the only ambiguity is the registration classification of a small number of vehicles. some otherwise identical vehicles could be limited to 60 and others 70.

56? is that new? wasn't in my highway code when I did the test.
80? my old flatmate seriously tried to convince me that the law had been changed to 80 on motorways for cars. genuine, not kidding. still get overtaken when he would do 80 indicated plus a speedo reading error margin.

good point, where did 56 come from?

Speed limits here:

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

There is a lot of them but it's quite simple really. They have just given a lot of examples which leaves helps remove any doubt.

It's the drivers responsibility to understand what vehicles they're driving and therfore what the national speed limit is for it. Just like you'd be expected to know the vehicle height so if you approached a low bridge you should know if it will fit under it.

I think the 56mph comes from the fact a lot of HGVs are fitted with a speed limiter. You see them with stickers saying irs limited to 56mph.

^+1

After every road journey I return with arguments that **% of the people I saw driving should not be driving.

Agreed, scary percentage too.

What is the point of the national speed limit sign?
<troll>Indicates that it's time to change down to 3rd and stand on it.</troll>

56mph = 90KPH which is probably the max HGV speed in that there Europe.

56mph = 90KPH which is probably the max HGV speed in that there Europe.

This is the case I think. Apparently there will be limits on new vans soon- but the limit will be in line with European limits which means you can limit your van to 75mph, which shouldn't really make any difference to sensible drivers.

If you dont know what the sign signifies, for the road you are on, and the vehicle you are in, there is an argument that perhaps you shouldnt be driving.

Now would be a good point to mention that literally every time this topic comes up it turns out that at least one commenter doesn't realise the difference between a single and dual carriageway.

Hint: it doesn't matter how many lanes there are.

e.g.

This is NOT a dual carriageway:
[img] [/img]

This IS a dual carriageway:
[img] [/img]

that's not a limit. certainly not one in the highway code / law.

voluntary, self imposed restriction, by the haulage industry and/or truck mfrs to be consistent across Europe perhaps? and probably saves a few drops of diesel too.

If you dont know what the sign signifies, for the road you are on, and the vehicle you are in, there is an argument that perhaps you shouldnt be driving.

Whilst this is true, the sad fact is that plenty of people [i]don't[/i] know what it means.

The dual carriageway example Graham mentions is an excellent one. When I did the speed awareness course, I think I was the only one in the room (other than the people running it) who had a proper understanding of how a dual carriageway was defined and what the limits were. I reckon this is why monospeeders are so common. (It's also why I worry when I hear people say how useful the course was; this is basic stuff!)

There are plenty 50, 60, 70 signs out there

Really? I've never seen a "70" sign in the UK.

probably saves a few drops of diesel too.

Apropos of nothing; I remember 56mph being used in car adverts years ago, quoted next to fuel economy figures. I think it was considered to be the most economical speed, for reasons that I don't really understand (didn't they call it 'the urban cycle' or some such?).

Whether it was all Marketing pish or not I've no idea. I wonder if the fact that it's almost exactly 90kph has something to do with it, perhaps engines / gearboxes for the UK market were designed to be most economical on European roads?

Sorry, I don't have a point to this post, just thinking out loud.

Really? I've never seen a "70" sign in the UK.

Go to Wales, there's shedloads.

The NSL sign also means that the speed limit can be changed without spending billions replacing all the signs.

e.g. [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_speed_limits_in_the_United_Kingdom#1973_oil_crisis ]between 1973 and 1977[/url], during the oil crisis, the national speed limit was lowered to 50 on single and 60 on dual.

(of course other countries took this as an opportunity to reduce car use and embrace the bicycle - but that's a different story!)

There are loads! I always assumed it was in places where the locals were too thick to be expected to understand what the NSL sign meant.

andyl - Member

good point, where did 56 come from?

Speed limits here:

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

There is a lot of them but it's quite simple really. They have just given a lot of examples which leaves helps remove any doubt.

It's a bit of a misnomer, lots of big heavy stuff is limited to 56mph, not by law, but it's give-or-take the most efficient speed, a sort of sweet spot between speed and air resistance.

The speed limit for them is usually 60mph and I don't believe there's any legal requirement for them to be limited at all.

Seen loads of 70 signs in UK. Scotland M74. A1M just north of M25. Wales. Vaguely recall 70 signs near Dartford Tunnel, but was a long time ago.
To me that is more ambiguous, since it suggests a 70 limit, but surely it means 70 only for those allowed to go 70?

The National Speed Limit is 30 unless otherwise stated. This is why you dont see 30 repeater signs. Motorways have their own rules.

The National Speed Limit sign is not a number as it depends on what vehicle you are driving.

If you dont know what the sign signifies, for the road you are on, and the vehicle you are in, there is an argument that perhaps you shouldnt be driving.

^This

Huge numbers of peple don't know the limit. Drove up the A9 to Inverness yesterday in a van doing exactly 60mph on the DC sections. The majority of cars were also doing almost exactly 60mph suggesting to me they thought that was the limit.

Very few overtakes seen on the SC sections and no dodgy overtakes. Seems most drivers now happy to sit at 50mph behind a truck whereas the old 40mph HGV limit promoted frustration and dodgy overtakes. 3 1/4 hours Glasgow in Inverness. Not losing many minutes compared to pre Av speed cameras. In fact eliminating the regular 10-15 miles at 38mph probably makes up for any time lost through AV speed cameras.

It's pretty much the best road sign around. Particularly on a good road with no traffic. And even more particularly on a motorbike!

I like that sign. Unfortunately in this day and age it means you can put your foot down and not get a speeding ticket until you see the next speed restriction sign

The National Speed Limit is 30 unless otherwise stated.

😕

The National Speed Limit is 30 unless otherwise stated. This is why you dont see 30 repeater signs. Motorways have their own rules.

THe NSL isn't 30mph except in built up areas.

http://www.bedfordshire.police.uk/advice_centre/casualty_reduction_partnership/speed/know_your_speed_limits.aspx

 

The national speed limit for cars is not 30mph unless otherwise stated, it is 60mph on single carriageways, 70mph on dual carriageways - and in built-up areas (which are denoted by closely spaced street lighting) it is 30mph. There do not need to be signs or repeaters for built-up areas where there is appropriate street lighting because the lighting alone tells you the limit.

No - the national speed limit is (currently) a variable limit depending upon vehicle but 60mph for cars and other light vehicles. Where there are streetlights, the limit is 30mph unless otherwise indicated.

Seriously, some of you shouldn't be driving.

Rachel

Drac - From the gov Website:

A speed limit of 30 miles per hour ( mph ) or 48 kilometres per hour ( km/h ) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise.

Dont get me started on built up areas. These do not determine speed limits

A speed limit of 30 miles per hour ( mph ) or 48 kilometres per hour ( km/h ) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise.

Yeah you might want to copy and paste the bit below that too.

Go to Wales, there's shedloads.

Huge numbers of peple don't know the limit.

Dont get me started on built up areas. These do not determine speed limits

Really?

[img] [/img]
--> https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits <

I wonder why they use National Speed limits signs in most areas with a speed limit 60mph or over for cars but but not those with a 30mph speed limit. Surely if the National Speed limit is 30mph it'll be the other way around, areas over 30mph would all have the limit in digits.

D0NK - Member
Huge numbers of peple don't know the limit.
and huge numbers know but don't care, differentiating between the two will be tricky.

And huge numbers (like me) were taught it meant end of speed restriction and haven't paid much attention to highway codes nor any other BS since. Except that bit where they made us wear helmets on m/bikes and came out with that godawful machine they stuck in your mouth to tell if you'd been drinking too much.

It's a bit of a misnomer, lots of big heavy stuff is limited to 56mph, not by law, but it's give-or-take the most efficient speed, a sort of sweet spot between speed and air resistance.

I stand corrected then, I always assumed it was the legal limit.

If it's voluntary, why not fit 'push to pass' buttons to raise it to 60 for a minute so they can overtake each other, rather than trying to do it at 56.1mph because they have new tyre on with more tread?

And huge numbers (like me) were taught.....

(I guess "taught" by stupid teachers is a third option)

A road with a 30mph limit is a restricted road, and just like a road with a 40 or 50 limit, it does have repeaters, it's just that they're nearly always lampposts instead of signs. A 30mph limit is not a NSL.

D0NK - Member
And huge numbers (like me) were taught.....
<insert futurama gif here>can't tell if trolling or stupid.
(I guess "taught" by stupid teachers is a third option)

[img] [/img]

tyrionl1: but surely you know that the speed restriction has ended when the man with the red flag stops walking in front of your mechanical carriage?

lol@ 'where the speed limit ends' ahhh so that's it's history.

The sad thing.. I don't even know or remember when it changed.

Shouldn't they have sent us all a new Highway Code? This 1947 edition is getting dogeared.. 😉

[quote=tyrionl1 ]The sad thing.. I don't even know or remember when it changed.
I thought it was 1973 - during the oil crisis (i.e. it was reduced and then never fully raised)

Shouldn't they have sent us all a new Highway Code?

They did. It's freely available right here:
https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/highway-code

This 1947 edition is getting dogeared..

1946 according to the filename.

Which, if you passed your driving test at 17, makes you 86. Maybe it's time to have another read there great grandad.

And huge numbers (like me) were taught it meant end of speed restriction and haven't paid much attention to highway codes nor any other BS since.

I remember when I was an inquisitive kid my grandad telling me it meant "end of restriction," that would've been maybe late 70s (and I'm pretty sure I've seen that copy of THC). In hindsight he was wrong of course, but presumably that was how he would've been taught.

Late 60s it changed, I think. So you've only had about 5 decades to adapt to the change. Thinking about it I can't imagine there's many of those "huge numbers" still driving; they'd have to be, what, aged 65+ at least, probably pushing 70.

I thought it was 1973 - during the oil crisis (i.e. it was reduced and then never fully raised)

Just looked it up - started trials in 1965 and was made permanent in 1967.

Found it (assuming Wikipedia has it correct)

In July 1967, Castle announced that 70 mph (113 km/h) was to become the permanent maximum speed limit for all roads and motorways. She had accepted RRL evidence that the speed limit had reduced the number of casualties on motorways. She ruled out minimum speed limits for motorways which would also reduce the danger of slow traffic as being too difficult to enforce and likely to increase congestion off the motorways.

Then it was reduced to 50 (oil crisis) and then increased to 60/70. That's the bit I was remembering.

ISTR in the oil crisis there was a temporary national limit of 55, whether actual or just proposed I don't recall.

(edit) or was it 50 in the UK?

Does no one read the links I post? 😉

From page 1:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_speed_limits_in_the_United_Kingdom#1973_oil_crisis

[quote=Cougar ]Apropos of nothing; I remember 56mph being used in car adverts years ago, quoted next to fuel economy figures. I think it was considered to be the most economical speed, for reasons that I don't really understand (didn't they call it 'the urban cycle' or some such?).

It was simply the speed the economy was tested at (actually 90km/h as you identified) rather than being the most economical speed - normally slower is more economical down to at least 40mph. Figures were quoted for economy at that steady speed and for the urban cycle, which was a protocol involving varying lower speeds. Those were the two things they were required to measure. The confusion comes because the 56mph economy was always a lot higher - I know I also used to think that meant it was the most economical speed.

Neither is 56mph the most economical speed for HGVs - that is also a lot lower, I would guess even lower than the most economical speed for cars.

The 56mph for HGVs comes about because there are two separate laws here. Firstly there is the law on NSLs where the maximum for an HGV on a motorway is 60mph. However HGVs are also required to be fitted with a speed limiter which must be set to 56mph. A quick google suggests that when these were first required to be fitted they were set to 60mph, however 56mph (90km/h) came in as a result of EU harmonisation. Therefore an HGV doing 60 on the motorway isn't breaking the law regarding speed limits, but presumably is breaking the law regarding calibration of the speed limiter (I don't know what tolerance is allowed).

I was quite surprised driving home on the spacesaver from holiday last year (80km/h?) how high the MPG went, exceeded the manufacturers quoted figure by significant amount so I'm guessing their figures are still done at 56mph?

Ah, interesting. Thanks for posting (aracer). Yeah, the "urban cycle" being a series of tests / speeds makes more sense, 90kph isn't really an urban speed...! It was supposed to represent typical 'round town' driving I suppose.

I don't suppose the 56mph thing makes much practical difference anyway. A calibrated speedometer at 56mph and an uncalibrated one reading 60mph in other vehicles is probably the same actual speed or as close as makes no odds.

Cougar - Moderator

Late 60s it changed, I think. So you've only had about 5 decades to adapt to the change. Thinking about it I can't imagine there's many of those "huge numbers" still driving; they'd have to be, what, aged 65+ at least, probably pushing 70.

There a still parts of the UK where it's still a valid 'end of restriction' sign and denotes stretches of road where there are no speed limits.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader as to where, but they're pretty popular spots 🙂

Where you're presumably thinking of isn't part of the UK 😉

Isle of Man...

Passed my Bike test in '64, driving a year later '65, still got the red license, but it was sadly replaced by a green paper one which is currently held together with selotape and causes much confusion renting cars overseas.

Never really agreed to the idea of photos on drivers licenses, smacked a bit of ID cards by the back door which of course they now are.

Thank you for the link to the Highway Code, I do have one now, those nice people on the [s]anger management[/s] speed awareness course gave me one, they not being happy at my bath chair travelling at 33 mph through Southampton.

Edit for cougar, the huge numbers were the rest of us post war baby boomers, lots of us still about refusing to grow old gracefully.

smacked a bit of ID cards by the back door which of course they now are.

Are they? Can't say I've ever been asked to produce mine.

Are they? Can't say I've ever been asked to produce mine.

Surely you have all the time just like he none drivers are too.

Surely you have all the time just like he none drivers are too.

Put down the whisky Drac.

It makes me an awesome driver.

exceeded the manufacturers quoted figure by significant amount so I'm guessing their figures are still done at 56mph?

No, the standardised tests are a variety of conditions and speeds - well, a cursory attempt at them anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_European_Driving_Cycle#Test_procedure

GrahamS - Member
smacked a bit of ID cards by the back door which of course they now are.
Are they? Can't say I've ever been asked to produce mine.

Really? So you what, (going to guess here,) live your entire life in front of a computer?

Do you bother to get dressed in the morning?

Please tell me you're not typing your response naked.

Eh? I don't (quite) live my whole life in front of a computer, have driven more than 200k miles and have never been required to produce a photocard licence either. Which is quite fortunate in a way given I passed my test in '87 and have lived at the same address for the last 18 years...

p.s. IIRC there was also a quoted MPG at 75mph (120km/h)

[img] [/img]

This is also not a dual carriageway, 60 limit but I'm not sure how many people know this.

Really? So you what, (going to guess here,) live your entire life in front of a computer?

I'm a software engineer, so yeah I do. Though I currently work from a serviced office so I do have to put my pants on these days. 😀

Presumably because you don't have a photocard you can't do all those things that apparently require it like... erm...?

How do you live?

ebygomm: yeah the rules do get a bit arbitrary when the carriageways get split far enough apart. No idea why.

Indeed - presumably the limit somewhat arbitrarily changes from 70 to 60 somewhere about here heading North https://goo.gl/maps/NCwRO

I've always seen it as an end of previous limit sign and thus national limit applies appropriate for road and vehicle, and that fits with a number of other black on white diagonal line type of signs. More so in other countries where they use a lot more "end of" signs. Those that tell you the end of the village/town boundary for example. End of many restrictions in UK just say "end" though compared to European signs which use the diagonal line.

One I didn't know/forgotten about but was informed about in my *ahem* speed awareness course, is legal mandatory speed limits are just the red bordered circles. Signs that aren't, saying things like "max speed" in a square sign, are purely advisory.

[i]No - the national speed limit is (currently) a variable limit depending upon vehicle but 60mph for cars and other light vehicles. Where there are streetlights, the limit is 30mph unless otherwise indicated.

Seriously, some of you shouldn't be driving.

Rachel [/i]

Just make sure you keep to the inside lane on a dual, if you're only doing 60 😉