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I was watching one of those endless series of car programmes and they had on a Porsche 911 which they improved and somehow made worse at the same time.
It got me thinking, what car choices there are out there for people who want a *ahem* drivers car? Not just a rocket on 4 wheels, but something that actually feels like you're driving and not just sitting in going somewhere.
Yes, I am bored
Bike engined Caterham for me. Virtual F1 😎
Skoda Octavia estate
Smart Roadster
Ariel Atom
Caterham with any engine. I used one for 3 years as my only car and still miss it. Will get another one, one day.
Subaru BRZ/Toyota GT86 - they've been around for a few years now so can be had used for a reasonable price. They can be quite hard on their tyres and brakes, and some service tasks are expensive/tricky (eg getting to spark plugs to change them - access issues caused by having Toyota's VVT cylinder heads on Subaru's flat 4 engine makes changing the plugs an engine out task if you follow the "official" service procedure). Had a GT86 for 4 years from new and it made me smile every time I drove it.
Caterham 7, always was and probably always will be the ultimate drivers car.
I've had mine for nearly 20 years now, on the right road in the right weather they're just the best. On a racetrack theyre on another level (as long as its dry).
I've had lots of other fast cars*, and nothing comes close to a 7 for road legal driving involvement.
*I've not owned any proper exotica, but I'd be surprised if even these came close.
As above, a Caterham of any type. Drive a slow one fast and it's possibly the most fun you can have on 4 wheels. Drive a fast one fast and you'll make a deposit in the bucket seat.
Also as above, GT86's have been dropping in price since day 1. I can't justify an expensive one as I don't need a daily driver but I fancy a Cat D for 7-8 grand as a weekend track toy.
Actually my mates got an Elise and while I've only been in the passenger seat it's a fun place to be. Slightly more hospitable than a Caterham but no less exciting.
I'll have an Exige S2 in black please.
A Renault Zoë.
Don't you even care about the fluffy little polar bears you evil horrid nasty person?
Exige and elise would be a close second place to a caterham
My Skoda Octavia 1.6tdi Estate is the finest handling car in the world.
#peakstw
GT86's are pretty cheap, and I've fancied one as my kids are grown up, but if you can't change plugs easily... WTF. It's an inlet manifold job off for my missus car to change plugs - crazy.
3 series 330d touring m sport is what you need.
A straight six E30. Slightly ridiculous prices now though.
A straight six E30. Slightly ridiculous prices now though.
Ah, but it was fun while it lasted! They were cheap and plentiful once. I remember being airborne in a 325 touring. My Orange Mr.O with Monster T's in the boot, bouncing off the roof.
RWD Ford's as well. Hardly the last word in driving precision but good cheap fun.
One of the 3 cylinder caterham looks like a fun car. Not insane speed, not a lot of grip, not a lot of protection from the elements and the smells of the open road. Not a lot of depreciation either.
RWD Ford’s as well. Hardly the last word in driving precision but good cheap fun.
Mk2 escort estate. Practical and wayward. A friend of mine had one many moons ago. He got a splash of cold water on his feet when he drove through puddles. I don’t think that example is still on the road.
Can't believe no-one has mentioned an MX5 yet! Nowhere near as 'pure' as something like a Caterham or an Elise but a lot cheaper and more practical.
Depends what (else) you want from your car really though I guess.
Caterhams are hard work unless you're just focused on trackdays/club level motorsport/the odd blast on a nice day.
I had a modified S1 Elise (Nitrons, roll cage, harnesses, etc) that I used as my only car for 8 years (just about managed to get my bike in it when needed - but only with the roof removed). These days I wouldn't want something as compromised as that - rawness and pureness are all OK in small doses, but something like a 911 is a much better all rounder.
JP
I would kill for a Caterham*. What else is purer?
* Hypothetically.
probably get flamed but... An original mini! i think it came as 35 bhp when launched? Plenty of (very expensive) ways to double or triple that figure. might not be fast, but you can go everywhere flat out. the original road going go-kart?
Type R Civic?
Depends what you want, fun and driver involvement or capable. You can’t have both. Modern cars with their electronic aids and shed loads of grip are definitely more capable especially for joe average. But the raw stripped out things like caterhams may be ‘underpowered’ on the top trumps cards but are matched by less grip and fun can be had at a mush slower speed. For me if it’s a second ‘weekend’ car then something like a caterham. Those things feel like they’re going 100 mph when they’re Doing 30.
An original mini!
The Mini races at the Silverstone Classic were world-class. 🙂
Just wondering where these Caterham fans intend to drive them. In perfect conditions (dry closed windy road with run off areas) they're demanding. Taking those points one by one:
Britain is often wet so the screen will mist, if anything is in front all the crap will hit the screen if you have the flappy hood up or you if you don't. The slightest damp patch on a dry road and you find yourself willing yourself not to correct because you know it'll sort itself out and overcorrection will lead to something uncatchable.
Closed road. Because keeping it between the hedges is a enough to keep you occupied without other road users entering the equation. Suicide is legal, taking others with you is not.
Windy (as in curvy) road. Because it adds speeds so fast that the next bend and need to brake is very welcome. Full chat feels ridiculous when you're almost sitting on the road which goes blind at the slightest brow. Pace notes are not a luxury.
Run off areas. Because the day you make a mistake there are no air bags, no crumple zones, no ESP, no ABS (on the one I drove) - just your flesh and bones.
You could drive it realy slowly of course in which case a Zoé is more comfortable, easier to see out of, easier to stop, goes where you point it whatever the throtle position and draws no attention from anyone, welcome or unwelcome. Any public road I'll take the Zoé, a Caterham on a perfect Summer day over the closed Epynt ranges with a good co-driver you might just tempt me back into a Caterham*, possibly.
*It wasn't a Caterham it was a multi-championship winning Lotus 7.
Quick, peg it! The fun police have arrived!
Yeah, I'm old and boring and would rather ride an MTB down a mountain (suitable tool in a suitable place) than drive any "driver's car" on the public road (unsuitable tool for the place). Things weren't different when I was winning in cars - on closed roads.
Tbf edukator, the op did say he wasn’t bothered about it being a rocket, he was interested in something you need to drive.
i don’t think anyone buys a caterham with any kind of practicality in mind.
Id say something like an mx5 is a good shout, or a subaru brz/gt86
Bmw 330i coupe or convertible, manual box.
Id rather have something that could give me some kind of a thrill, but that’s not necessarily performance related, an interesting exhaust note, or a convertible roof, or sticky tyres, or off-road performance, these would be much more interesting to me than pure performance.
PEEEGGGGGG IIIIITT! lols 🙂
Id rather have something that could give me some kind of a thrill, but that’s not necessarily performance related
2CV, preferably one of the really old 400cc ones, hood down, heading for the beach with a beautiful member of your prefered sex to share the driving.
Citroen 2CV
when I was winning in cars
😂😂😂😂
+1 for a slightly warmed over 'proper' mini.
when I was winning in cars
I’d rather have something that could keep up with normal traffic, but yeah, the 2cv is actually a good example.
I’ve always loved the idea of a GT86, I think they look great and I know they handle wonderfully.
I think I like them most though because they’re not that fast (my diesel Superb is faster) and it makes certain ‘car’ people mad. They get all upset that it can’t do 150mph and 0-60 in 3 seconds, it’s not enough for them to decide it’s not for them, but they hate it’s very existence as if it’s going stop them wanting some 700bhp supercar that’s more of a posing pouch than a vehicle,
I’d love a 911 (a green R if anyone of feeling generous) an F40 just to drool over it and actually drive so people can see it and an Aerial Nomad because, but I think if you actually want to drive it a bit I think a GT86, Elise, MX-5 is a better bet, it’s less anti social and more in-tune with real roads with other people on them and all that.
There's no sound on your GIF, CFH. I'm sure it would be better with sound.
Wish I still had mine.
A high revving 1.6 Twincam. Rear wheel drive with LSD no power anything. If I could afford one I’d buy one tomorrow. Good ones upward of 12k these days.
Had an Elise for 5 years then to GT86. Also driven Caterhams.
Elise and Exige prices have rocketed making them not the "bargain" they were 10 years or so ago.
Gt86 is the best modern car I've driven that isn't silly money. It's not fast but it's so balanced, driving position is great and it just feels right.
Caterhams are also excellent but hold their value insanely well. More compromised than Elise even.
As mentioned, my money would go on a mki or mkii MX5. They've risen in price recently but they drive great and are readily available.
I’d take an MR2 over a MX5. But I’d be happy with either. I have been looking at a Midas kit car restoration!
MR2s seem to have dropped off the face of the planet. More's the pity.
PH is showing 6 for sale.
Elise for me and mine was damn fun at Brands Hatch on Wednesday evening. Although very hard to have a sole ownership car.
A high revving 1.6 Twincam. Rear wheel drive with LSD no power anything. If I could afford one I’d buy one tomorrow. Good ones upward of 12k these days.
Did you deliver Tofu in it?
Elise for me. Still got mine. Ginnettas occasionally tempt me but that's more track focussed.
I like this thread, much of or Day is taken up by this thinking... Unfortunately, we feel that the public road is not what it once was. Busy, other cars are that much faster, bigger, much more commercial traffic, peoples views of cars drive faster/harder are different, so not quite the place much of the time but still cool some of the time. And ‘drivers’ cars’, some are more obvious and lots down to personal preference and opinions. And some of the most fun on the roads we have had in the last few years have been things like the £300 Micra, as James Hunt (he said he had the most fun on the road in an A30 van) and many others have said a slower/simpler car driven at 100% is great fun, a fast car driven at 85% plus quickly becomes a bit too much on the road. Also can a drivers car be fwd? (Surely Minis, 106s, Elan Fwd) Must it be rwd? Can it ever be 4wd!? (Thought the Evo was great on a track if a little competent but not so much on a road (too competent). On the overhand really enjoyed the old Scooby on the road but it lacked on a track.
We’d be really interested to hear of a new car that is a driver’s car on the road, it seem each iteration has lost some ‘soul’.
Cars that have impressed for their ‘driver’s factor’ have included the GT86, most of the MX5s (reckon the new one could get on ‘the list’, Caterhams are fun and always impressed by them, the most fun ones I’ve driven have been 140-180bhp with my normal tyres. The more powerful ones, especially with trick tyres have been impressive but less fun. A couple years ago in a BMW135 with some mild mods, was impressed by that.
Biggest grin cars for me have been: Lotus 7, Sylvia Striker (lighter, smaller 140bhp seven ish thing), old Mini Copper S (with appropriate mods), Pug 106 Rallye (just great fun), Ginetta G15 (unbelievably fun), an older M3, most be a few others.. one of my most fun was a 100bhp Midget! And will be missing so many, have not driven many of the interesting ones (not for want of trying). Also is it ‘accessibility’? I had a 130bhp 7 that I’d let anyone have a go in and all loved it and started sliding within a few minutes, in comparison I don’t think my mid engine car time comes to an hour. Bet some of those are driver’s cars but need some time in for you to feel that.
Well-sorted RX-7.
Modern mini GP1 / GP2. Involving for a modern car that remains vaguely practical, and affordable - fully exploitable and fun at normal road speeds.
Just wondering where these Caterham fans intend to drive them
I had one once, with a pinto engine in it.
It was cold, rattled like a bag of Ed China’s spanner’s, was annoyingly noisy, the roof was a hankie. Yeah it was quick, and it “handled” (whatever that means) ok... but ultimately it was horrid. I sold it within 5mths and the then GF proposed to me the day after it had disappeared down the road.
2CV
Yeah, had one of those too.. it was simply brilliant in every way. And I’d love another, and have been keeping a keen eye on current BMW 1000cc boxer engined conversions.
But, my ultimate car would be the one I sold and cried for months after selling it..
This..
Mx5's a good shout. For me its all about the older hot hatches. Good chassis, light weight and a revvy NA engine, stuff like the 205 GTIs, Mk1/2 Golf GTI, Saxo VTS, RS 182's ect. Had afew 306 GTI6's and miss them dearly. Thing with newer stuff is its that quick/detached in feel that you need to be doing silly speeds to have fun.
since my mini suggestion didnt burst into flames, i'll have another go...
without question, the best car i have ever owned, not the fastest - around 180-190 bhp, but an absolute dream to drive...
Honda Integra Type R (DC2) - around 10 years ago Evo mag did a "100 best handling cars of all time". the Teg was number 21... can be had for 3-4K, might be a bit rusty though...
Car mad friend of mine is thinking of getting a 997 gen 911 donor car and giving it to RPM Technik to mod into their CSR build, an interesting way to GT3 levels of specialness...they also do 996 gen. Worth a look into. He also has a Morgan Aero 8 which is a lovely antidote to modern cars, old school feel and a proper event to be in...great on track too.
First car I ever bought myself was a Caterham 7, wonderful to drive, with its twin DCOE 40'S, but not so great to own.
These days, I think a boggo Porsche Cayman would be nice to drive, without being so rediculously capable you would never get out of second gear.
After trying a few hot hatches, this is was I ended up with. Pretty quick at ~300bhp, so involving to drive, total blast in the corners with the electronic slipdiff, and the noise... Oh my... The noise.
If we're now going into 'my favourite car' territory, I'll move away from the mini suggestion and go with the Megane 225 Cup I had. Not sure there was much better as a quick, 'practical' road car. As much performance as you need on a public road, brilliant handling and still completely usable as a 'bike' car. I miss ours...
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Just wondering where these Caterham fans intend to drive them.
As I said, I had one as my only car for 3 years (used pretty much every day). I drove it to work, I went shopping in it, took son to school in it etc,. etc,.
I suppose that would only appeal to a certain person. But then my only bike is a brakeless fixed gear which I ride everywhere. I am just someone who prefers raw, basic stuff over creature comforts.
But in the answer to the question what cars are involving I have never owned a more involving car. Cars like Porsches are just detached and dull in comparison, even more so on the road.
But then my only bike is a brakeless fixed gear which I ride everywhere.
You wouldn't have done the ride I did yesterday. Aubisque - Soulor - Ferrière - Pau. You'd have pushed up and walked down. Quite apart from:
People don't expect bikes to be unable to stop. Just as they don't expect cars to be driven as "drivers' choice" cars are driven.
Can't believe no one has said the Alpine A110.
Personally I drive a 130i, 265hp of naturally aspirated, rear wheel drive fun in a package that I can fit my bike in and is reasonably discreet. There's no doubt that there are better drivers cars when you get to the likes of Caterhams, Ariels, Alpines etc, but for a single car that combines day to day practicality with driver engagement when wanted it's the perfect compromise for me.
Can’t believe no one has said the Alpine A110.
Probably because most people have never laid eyes on one! They're amazing but they're a rare, expensive, historic rally car. It's not what I'd be typing into eBay if I wanted a fun weekend car.
My step dad has got a Miami blue 1.9 205 GTi in the garage that hasn't moved in 15 years. I could easily bring it up to mint condition, the problem is he hates me after a mega bust up we had a few years ago. Dying to get my hands on it.
Mx5 is the predictable choice but they really are so much fun. My wife has had 3, pick of which was probably the early mk2 1.6 Eunos. Wonderfully revvy engines, stick in a TR lane roll bar to stiffen them up, and a cheap air filter for a lovely bit of growl, and it's a fantastic little thing.
I'd say NSX but unfortunately that ship has sailed price wise for your average Joe. Elise prices are never going to go down though and would make a solid choice.
964 and 993 911s have always been on my list, but prices are now way out of reach.
DC2s are incredible, probably the most fun car we've ever had, but a good one is getting one for 8k now, and my problem with them was that it really egged me on! I found myself really wringing it out because it was just so satisfying to drive near the edge that I frequently had to really reign it in. The DC2 chassis and engine really are true masterpieces. Boot is cavernous as well. Also, utterly bombproof.
I had a Clio 172 Cup which was a bit like a cut price, incredibly unreliable DC2. It had glimmers of brilliance, but it felt like something went wrong with it every week that hung a cloud over the whole experience. And yes, I bought one with a very good history.
Well-sorted RX-7.
Is a good shot as long as you don't get too carried away. I've had one for 10 years in various states of tune, and I think to be honest I've gone too far. It was at it's best when it was a tweaked up twin turbo car, after going for a medium single it really is impractically quick for the road. The chassis is so sorted though, and I'll never get bored of staring at it. Values are on the up as well, so now is a good time to buy.
All I need to do is find a way to mount a bike on it and my life would be complete (panels are too thin and contoured for a Seasucker)
Some shameless picture whoring...
Don’t you even care about the fluffy little polar bears
Why no, no I don't!
Porsche Macan.
Mk3 MR2 is hard to find because... it's so damn good.
Learn to drive it hard with the stock engine then swap a 2ZZ-GE or 2AR-FE in it and hit warp speed.
If you swap the spare wheel for 4x new good tyres and a can of tyre-seal then there's a decent amount of space.
I'm currently in the middle of a 3week camping holiday in France with two persons, a nice 2man+ tent, cookers, clothes folding stools and lot of other stuff.
Bargain! (PS, buy on eBay etc, not PHeads)
Off to look at a 987.2 Cayman S in ten mins ,Happy Days!
Just wondering where these Caterham fans intend to drive them.
I'd say "anywhere". I think maybe that's part of OPs point. Any journey in something like a Caterham is an event. It's not about going fast and driving like an idiot, they are just very very involving whatever you do, all the time.
Most modern cars feel totally detached and numb.
I do love Caterhams and have driven them extensively, but one propbem I have; they aren't a road car, nor are they a racing car. On the road they drive like a racing car, seriously uncomfortable, poor ride etc etc. As soon as you get on track I find them very soft (compared to a racing car) and vague, a bit like a road car.....That said I do love them, but I think for road driving an Elise is a better driver's car.
M3s were great until they became bloated and complex.... I feel nothing 4x4 is permitted in this category so that counts out quite a few......not driven a GT86 but here good things.....MX5 is tempting (but makes an Elise look quick)....all 911s are seriously impressive and engaging, and Boxsters are very underated. I think an Elise still rules the roost overall, though, or a 911 if you want some power.
sharkattack
Member
Can’t believe no one has said the Alpine A110.Probably because most people have never laid eyes on one! They’re amazing but they’re a rare, expensive, historic rally car. It’s not what I’d be typing into eBay if I wanted a fun weekend car.
Sorry, for the avoidance of doubt I was talking about the recent reissue which is currently in production. I guess I read "these days" in the thread title as current. I've seen quite a few, but admittedly mainly in France.
Honda or duratec Elise would trump 911 if you wanted power. So fast!
Cars are just transport, motorbikes are for fun.
I don't like many modern cars but if I had to choose I would have something like the Hyundai i30 above, an M135i, A45 Amg.
As for proper cars most have them have already being mentioned, something like a 306 Gti 6, Integra type R, Exige, Clio 172/182 although I'm biased on that one.
I had a Clio 172 Cup which was a bit like a cut price, incredibly unreliable DC2. It had glimmers of brilliance, but it felt like something went wrong with it every week that hung a cloud over the whole experience
I bought one when my diesel daily runabout was written off, I was after something with a bit of power that would handle well, still get reasonable mpg and that I could use for a trackday and it ticked all the boxes.
I love the fact it's got nothing that interferes with your driving on it, no traction control, ABS or any of the other electronic crap they seem to stick on all cars these days.
E46 M3
For fun, my old Hillman Imp in the snow took some beating. I've never won anything though.
Never owned a car but a few motorbikes - and obviously driven a lot of different cars
For me the "fun" in a motor vehicle comes from thrashing it. Full throttle acceleration, tyres on the edge of grip. IN a 2cv this happens at sub 60 mph, In a porche in excess of 100mph. I had to get rid of my 100hp BMW motorcycle because speeds were getting very silly. My 1961 BSA can be thrashed! Cornering at 60 mph leaned right over on the BMW seemed slow. Get the BSA round at a similar speed seemed really fast
So for to have fun driving it needs to be something slowish with well balanced handling and skinny tyres. Probably the 2CV was the most fun closed followed by the renault 4 simply because you could push them hard and be still at reasonable speeds.
What would be the modern equivalent? Are there not a few small Japanese coupes? How about a smart roadster?
What would be the modern equivalent?
The Caterham 160 is a good equivalent. Much faster than a 2cv (but then so is my bicycle) but still low powered (80bhp) and needs to be revved to get the power out of the 3 cylinder 660cc engine and has narrow high profile tyres.
It is the Caterham I would buy if I get another one as it has enough power, is the cornering that is fun.
You wouldn’t have done the ride I did yesterday. Aubisque – Soulor – Ferrière – Pau. You’d have pushed up and walked down.
Not really - I can ride up most things and ride down all of them
People don’t expect bikes to be unable to stop
That's good because I can stop fine thanks.