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So a slightly hypothetical question:
If my family and I move to France before the apparent Brexit things was actually actioned would we be able to stay?
Whilst I appreciate these is no absolute answer I wondered if anyone had a good educated guess.
No.
Yes.
Or maybe no...
Every aspect of Brexit (from a UK point of view) is being tailored to the demands of the folks who are determined to avoid ECJ kurisidction and the associated tax avoidance laws. Unless that changes, there's every chance that reciprocal rights for UK/EU citizens living aborad might fall through the cracks.
I'd say yes, only because I think that would be the sensible thing to happen. But..............
No one knows.
Really.
Given how the Home Office are treating EU citizens I expect a bureaucratic backlash against Brits in other EU countries to begin shortly
As above. The EU are perfectly prepared to give UK citizens in the EU full rights. But May and Co will not reciprocate so its more than possible that you would end up with few rights as a UK passport holder in Europe.
Yes, No or Maybe - come March 2019 (if it happens) you'll cease to be an EU national, we may have partner agreement with France, or the EU, both or neither.
You may apply for a French passport now and then it wouldn't be a problem, I'm told it's fairly easy at the moment, if you decide to retain your UK nationality you'll be able to come and go as you please... well, after queuing for several hours no doubt, Passport Control didn't seem to be able to cope with 'Summer' let alone with suddenly have to check the details of EU Nationals.
If we leave without a 'deal' you may have to leave France immediately and hope the UK still accepts your 'old' EU passport to let you back in or you'll be stuck in flux like Tom Hanks in 'The Terminal' it seems far fetched, but it's a possible outcome, especially considering the Leavers and their hysterical fears around borders and passports, of course they'll assume that all the new rules will only apply to Johnny Foreigner, but they won't. Come Summer 2019 they might find their holiday plans thwarted because the EU doesn't yet recognise the 'New' UK and our passports, so no Tourist Visas, that'll be fun for everyone.
I would imagine that from 2019, everyone will just need to get a residence permit. Which may or may not need some kind of evidence of employment etc.
Pretty sure nationalities of non-EU countries are permitted to reside in EU countries, with varying amounts of paperwork depending on nationality, so I see no reason why UK would be at the Cuba/NorthKorea end of the list rather than the US, Canada etc. end of the list.
Ask an avid brexiteer. They know what deal we will have in 2019 better than HM Govt. and the EU do 😉
Are you suggesting that currently there is nobody living and working in France from a non-EU country right now?
I suspect there are. in fact I know there are. I think you'll be OK.
Visa free travel is not the reserve of the EU. I travel with work a lot to a large number of countries, most of them have a visa waiver scheme with the UK so not a problem at all. Even those which don't more often than not you can just purchase a visa as you enter the country. And for those countries who are being awkward I can arrange a working visa within a few days.
What about all those EU citizens in the UK? There will be a reciprocal deal - it'll already have been agreed. It's an easy no-brainer.
What about all those EU citizens in the UK? There will be a reciprocal deal - it'll already have been agreed.
Really? could you say what it is because as far as I am aware no deal has been done because of the redline of the ECJ
Please enlighten us
Great answers so far thanks all!
What about all those EU citizens in the UK? There will be a reciprocal deal - it'll already have been agreed. It's an easy no-brainer.
One of the three big sticking points is an easy no-brainer that's already been agreed? Are you David Davis?
have a gander at your EU passport options.
[i]It's an easy no-brainer.[/i]
The no brain's are failing to achieve it.
[url= https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/11/government-ignoring-advice-eu-citizens-rights-could-save-brexit-deal ]https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/11/government-ignoring-advice-eu-citizens-rights-could-save-brexit-deal[/url]
wwaswas - MemberThe no brain's are failing to achieve it.
THe Minister for Brexit just laughed when questioned in parliamant and said he hadn't done any assessment of how Brexit will impact the uK.
Citation needed on that last bit.
[i]Citation needed on that last bit.[/i]
Look at all the newspapers and a the ferment that is social media today for full details.
As above. The EU are perfectly prepared to give UK citizens in the EU full rights. But May and Co will not reciprocate so its more than possible that you would end up with few rights as a UK passport holder in Europe.
When the EU offer up the supremacy of UK law in respect of UK citizens living in the EU we might be a little closer
The current EU proposal gives more rights to EU citizens than to UK ones
There will be some form of deal
I would imagine that from 2019, everyone will just need to get a residence permit. Which may or may not need some kind of evidence of employment etc.
Some EU countries require this now based on other threads on here
willard - MemberCitation needed on that last bit.
@Reuters - 11m
Britain has not formally assessed impact of Brexit on economy -Brexit minister
THe Minister for Brexit just laughed when questioned in parliamant and said he hadn't done any assessment of how Brexit will impact the uK.
There are a lot of civil servants getting paid for something, I suspect that there is a deliberate plan to shield the detail from getting out until critical points in the negotiations pass. It makes good negotiating sense but bad politics
Video of it here :
https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/938341010295451648/video/1
(He might, of course, be lying through his teeth and concelaing reports that do exist)
The current EU proposal gives more rights to EU citizens than to UK ones
The UK proposals are about stripping rights from all of us, UK and EU citizens. The EU are rightly not happy about that.
big_n_daft - MemberIt makes good negotiating sense
It would, if you were negotiating with idiots, but the EU are more than aware of the impact, and their information is all published
When the EU offer up the supremacy of UK law in respect of UK citizens living in the EU we might be a little closer
~What utter nonsense. UK law is national law and cannot be applied outside the country. EU law is supranational law and can be.
EU law would give all citizens the same rights. What the UK proposal is is to treat EU citizens in the UK as second class citizens
Alternative answers are available.
You can check what happens if we become third country equivalent. Given that many are happy for us to give up your rights unilaterally without agreement that’s your base case.
Remember when you are out you are not allowed back in for fear being radically Europeanised!!! This also includes all EU holidays....apart from Benidorm
As above, yes without question. There are already plenty of non EU citizens living in EU countries, and citizens of EU countries living in non EU countries. Indeed, there are plenty of non EU countries that you could move to now if you wanted to. Look at any one of the threads on this forum discussing moves to Scandinavia for example.
genesiscore502011 - Member
Remember when you are out you are not allowed back in for fear being radically Europeanised!!! This also includes all EU holidays....apart from Benidorm
I understand that shagaluf & Ayia Napa have now been added to the list of ‘safe’ zones
Why France? Why not the USA or Australia?
It would, if you were negotiating with idiots, but the EU are more than aware of the impact, and their information is all published
You really believe they have published everything and what they have published is not designed to support their negotiating stance and not to damage it at all?
~What utter nonsense. UK law is national law and cannot be applied outside the country. EU law is supranational law and can be.
In which countries outside the EU does it apply to?
I would imagine that from 2019, everyone will just need to get a residence permit. Which may or may not need some kind of evidence of employment etc.
Some EU countries require this now based on other threads on here
don't confuse residence permit with the legal requirement to register residence.
Germany was quoted in one of those threads. Regardless of nationality, German, non-German-EU or non-EU, you have go to the town hall to register residence or change of residence. Plus they changed the law since I was here. When I first registered, they wanted a letter from my employer, and passport/ID card proof that I was EU citizen, then gave me a residence permit. Then they changed the law (conveniently as that permit was expiring) and sent me a letter stating that as an EU citizen I don't need a residence permit (but do need to register... just like a German does, or a Syrian, or Canadian, or Irish, or Outer Mongolian...).
When I become a non-EU citizen, perhaps they just need to give me a residence permit again? Haven't a clue. Although lots of people knew what the situation would be like on June 23rd last year.
Even if there is no EU-wide agreement, France may still decide to allow UK nationals to reside under whatever terms they like. I would expect them to be pretty open to anyone with a job.
Of course that's not a great reassurance to anyone in that position. Especially if, like my brother-in-law, their wife and child are not UK citizens. Chances are it'll be ok but "chances are it'll be ok" isn't really what most people are looking for in their long-term residency and career arrangements.
Given that many are happy for us to give up your rights unilaterally without agreement that’s your base case
Correct. 52% of people in fact. That's democracy for you.
The official line:
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2213
At worst you'll be in the same situation as lady from Peru I employed in France. She had entered France legally as a student and started working part time as allowed by the regs. When she finished her studies she stayed on thanks to her employment with me. That would be your situation on hard Brexit day. As her employer I had to provide paperwork which justified employing her. There were also some modest costs but for me rather than her.
I filled in forms, as did she until she married and had a child at which point French nationality was a formality. She'd have been able to apply for French nationality anyhow after 10 years (now only 5). France is a lot more flexible than the UK, there is no unreasonably high salery requirement. If you can find someone to give you full time work that supports your family that's enough. Runnning a business employing people is an alternative strong hand to have.
In summary, if you move now and establish yourself as a contributor to French society you are unlikely to be thrown out on Brexit day and likely to be granted French nationality after. They'll also check you are well integrated so don't get a criminal record, don't wind up the neighbours and have an active social or sporting life. If you have kids they need to live with you and be schooled.
Is it acually conceivable that German citizens will be force ably removed from this country?
If they resist will they be cuffed and dragged onto a plane?
How well will that go down in Berlin? How will that reflect on any trade agreements? Is there a German Daily Express? I'd love to see their headlines.
Given that the Zombie Maygot couldn't easily get rid of Hooky how easy will it be for her to get rid of an innocent German housewife?
Is there a German Daily Express?
Bild-Zeitung
Correct. 52% of people in fact. That's democracy for you.
Exactly, we should carry on asking very complex questions to the "demos" again. People are very good at answering them in a binary manner. I guess the NHS savings were too good to resist.
Alternatively, you could elect representatives of an ever so slightly higher intellectual calibre than your average voter and ask them to debate and make decisions using critical thinking. You could even have a dual chamber system as a safe guard.
The UK is not a direct democracy AFAIK, thankfully.
Join the French Foreign Legion for five years and get automatic French citizenship a new passport and a pension plus you will learn to speak French.
Maybe get to invade England if it all goes tu with Brexit.
Is it acually conceivable that German citizens will be force ably removed from this country?
If they resist will they be cuffed and dragged onto a plane?
Oh no, the plan is much more subtle. Make it hard or impossible for them to work, rent somewhere to live or open a bank account. Send them threatening letters telling them to get out. Get xenophobes to shout at them in the street. Tell them if they're really good and behave themselves and give us lots of money, we might let them stay - but make sure they know they'll never be really welcome.
Do that, and they'll leave by themselves. It's working perfectly.
[i]Re-reading the deal text part on citizens’ rights - it’s not great. Emphasis is on rights in 1 state, no freedom to go elsewhere. Basically for Brits in rest of EU: applying for a new passport is the only way to secure FoM.[/i]
Ah.
bencooper - MemberDo that, and they'll leave by themselves. It's working perfectly.