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Anyway, I’m still waiting for someone to show the working to prove someone who is against one vaccination is anti-vax.
They are clearly not. I am doubts about the widespread use of a few vaccines in pets, they are given as a matter of course whether needed or not, boosters are given when not required and the doses are not controlled properly.
We had to almost force a vet to do a titer test rather than just do a booster of a vaccine that had immediate lifelong side effects first time round. Guess what, the results (4 years after vaccine) confirmed that antibodies were still in place and no booster would ever be needed.
That said, I have had 2 covid vaccines and am not anti-vax at all but will take each vaccine on its merits.
From that link
"‘This is probably because we’re running out of unvaccinated susceptible people to infect as more and more people get the vaccine.
‘Whilst the figures look worrying, it’s important to highlight that vaccines have massively reduced severe infections and post-vaccination Covid is a much milder disease for most people. The main concern is now the risk of long Covid.’"
This, and most, COVID threads on the internet.
I wonder if the rise in cases amongst the double vaccinated is also due to their misapprehension that they are now safe and can drop all precautions.
Not wanting to thread hijack too much but it's getting to me now. My boyfriend hasn't had the vaccine, not because he's 'anti' but because he doesnt want to potentially be ill for three days..... yes that's his only reason so he says. I've prompted him a few times but can't really say 'have it or else', I've also recently said no sex until you're jabbed in the hope that would work. To put into some context about why I feel I have the right to be annoyed, he's still going out to a work place every day with younger blokes who apparently live it up over the weekends and will be the sort who aren't keeping their distance and don't really care. I'm at still home constantly and have been since last March, I've been double jabbed ages ago because I'm extremely vulnerable and because of being immune compromised studies have been done which show I'm only approx 50% covered with my double jabs. I'm not really sure how else to get him to think about it seriously and act on it, I've tried saying sick for three days is nothing compared to the 6 month long covid or the risk of life for me...
Golfchick, he sounds like a complete arse!
Sorry GolfChick but I agree with aa. You’re vulnerable and he still won’t have the jab. That’s a huge dick move right there.
No jab for him, means no jabbing you.
Why wouldn’t you protect those closest to you because you’re afraid of feeling a bit achy.
what other studies in other areas are ‘we’ ignoring then?
@theotherjonv did I say anything about you or any particular person? I'll say it again, in bold;
some of you
I'm not getting into who did what or whatever, I made my point and that's that. I'm an engineer and it annoys me no end when people come away with ignorant nonsense then refuse to listen to reason or views that don't align with theirs. It happens all the bloody time and some of the worst offenders are the most vocal ones in this thread. Cognitive dissonance much?
@golfchick sorry but your boyfriend sounds like a selfish prick. That's a seriously shitty move.
We have a girl at work who is ‘sick of all the text messages’ telling her to get a jab. When pressed as to why she won’t get a jab ‘I’ve been OK so far and the vaccination centre is at Elland Road, that’s like 8 miles from my house!’ She drives… When asked about the people she might pass it on to ‘I don’t really care, that’s not my problem.’
Boss intervened at that point, no more discussion on the subject allowed.
Oddly, this was the same girl who was trying to negotiate working from home before she started, as she claimed she was anxious about being in an office 5 days a week.
Why do you call someone who doesn’t take the vaccine a nutter?
probably because they have no real reason for not having it.
I wonder whether some people are just scared of needles and using a range of other excuses to not admit to others/themselves
I don't get it personally, but some people seem to enjoy being scared of harmless stuff - needles, spiders etc
I'm really scared of having the second dose of AZ, despite not knowing what is wrong with me after the first 8 weeks ago my GP insists that on balance I should get the second jab, I'm not so sure and am genuinely conflicted.
I wonder whether some people are just scared of needles and using a range of other excuses to not admit to others/themselves
I'm a bit needlephobic and have weighed up risks and rewards which meant I did not have all the vaccinations work wanted me to have - but for the covid vaccine I had both my jags almost as soon as I could - jumping the queue because at the time I was a healthcare worker. why? Because I understood the risk / reward equation and told the staff i was needle phobic so to look out for me fainting.
did I say anything about you or any particular person?
No, you were super vague. Some people have tried to address your point about hypocrisy, but it’s impossible really unless you actually explain what you mean, rather than leaving people to try and fill in the blanks and guess what you mean. The beauty of science is that it doesn’t require blind faith, you can go and read from multiple sources, and changes are welcomed when new evidence arrives and is replicated and reviewed.
I wonder whether some people are just scared of needles
We have someone at work who is scared of needles, and was dreading their first jab… was totally honest about why… the buzz they were on when it came to their turn and they managed to go through with it was huge. Biggest team cheer for them the next morning at work.
Why do you call someone who doesn’t take the vaccine a nutter?
I didn't. I called someone who spreads misinformation and has an agenda for others not to have the vaccine a nutter.
I do risk analysis and management as part of my job.
So do I.
Risk = Consequence x Likelihood.
Fit forty year old male.
Risk from Covid = low x moderate.
Risk from vaccination = severe x very unlikely.
In the same way that people play the lottery, in that it's highly unlikely they will ever win any significant amount but if they do then the consequence is massive.
There are extremely rare reactions to the vaccine, it's is a real risk. Up here in the NE a 44 year old BBC Newcastle presenter, mother of 1, died from blood clots cased by the AZ vaccine.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I bet her family wish she hadn't taken the vaccine.
Saying that, I have had multiple vaccinations over the years, Hep, Cholera, Typhoid, Yellow fever, flu etc. and I didn't hesitate in taking the AZ.
However other people assess the risk differently and they are entitled to their decision.
@Golfchick, in those circumstances, he's being a dick. Dump him.
I called someone who spreads misinformation and has an agenda for others not to have the vaccine a nutter.
Especially if they create a new account on a mountain biking forum for the sole purpose of doing so.
Fit forty year old male.
Then your likelihood of a severe outcome from natural infection without first having been vaccinated is still much higher than from having any of the vaccines.
The deaths that have occurred after vaccination should not be ignored, they absolutely need close attention to help prevent further occurrences. Sadly one of the regular posters on this forum has been effected by this first hand.
I’m really scared of having the second dose of AZ, despite not knowing what is wrong with me after the first 8 weeks ago my GP insists that on balance I should get the second jab, I’m not so sure and am genuinely conflicted.
Best of luck schrick, sure it'll be fine, understandable thinking after first one though. My 2nd AZ is on 26th.
died from blood clots
cased byafter the AZ vaccine.
correlation is not causation
TJ, I think the precautionary approach of looking out for symptoms of blood clots post vaccination is wise, even if a causal link is not yet shown.
EDIT: as were the changes made to who receives which vaccine.
correlation is not causation
Correct.
However a 44 year old, with no underlying health conditions, dies 2 weeks after receiving the AZ vaccine. When it has subsequently been withdrawn from use in number of countries, particularly for younger and middle aged women.
BBC News reported that senior Newcastle coroner Karen Dilks had issued an interim fact-of-death certificate citing a "complication of AstraZeneca COVID-19 virus vaccination" as a consideration.
TJ - The coroner is obviously concerned, why aren't you?
I didn't say i wasn't concerned - its just that you cannot say the jag caused the blood clot with any degree of certainty
the correlation between blood clots and the jag is there but its barely statistically significant.
Golfchick - I cannot believe your orther half. He is putting yo in danger.
@theotherjonv did I say anything about you or any particular person? I’ll say it again, in bold;
some of you
That's why I put 'we' in commas, interpret 'we' as some of us and then 'we' are listening for your answer.
I assumed the "some of you" was a dig at me and ignored it
To be fair the UK government are sharing real world numbers weekly, doing their own risk analysis and providing advice, published on their own website. Seems very transparent and looks to me like they are doing a good job.
They are transparent enough that there is enough data for both sides to make a semi formed case (the quality of which may be good, bad or ugly but that’s another matter) based on their own age / medical profile and other factors.
If your mate is 50+, overweight, not that fit and rides an ebike he probably should look at the data. Likely it will do a better sales job than you threatening not to be their mate anymore 😂
However a 44 year old, with no underlying health conditions, dies 2 weeks after receiving the AZ vaccine
As a 44 year old female she had other risks for the clots that were higher than the AZ. I don’t think there has been any official finding on the cause for her. It’s very sad though.
I think we're all missing the key point here. Which is, what the **** is a 'jag'?
@squirrelking apologies for the misunderstanding.
Cougar, as usual admirable job on the science and facts. Not so admirable on the tolerance. You will not persuade anyone with ridicule and contempt.
I'm not particularly trying to persuade anyone. The two brexit threads resoundingly taught me the folly of that particular notion.
I can't possibly imagine why I might be a little out of patience with people who are deliberately increasing the risk to the health of myself and my family and friends.
Why do you call someone who doesn’t take the vaccine a nutter?
I've already explained this to you once.
Being concerned about the vaccine because you don't really understand how science works is fine, laudable even.
Still being concerned about the vaccine after you've had the science explained to you is a bit dim.
Rejecting the targeted vaccine in favour of worming tablets for horses and then joining a mountain biking website solely to tell everyone about it is full-on, Flat Earth, Moon Landings Were Faked nutterism of the highest order.
There's little point in attempting a discussion if you have your browser set to write-only.
Which is, what the **** is a ‘jag’?
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19090594.david-leask-getting-needle-whether-jag-jab/
Golfchick I agree with others above he's being a selfish arse.
OP I suppse you respect his decision and require him to respect your decision. Which for me means seeing less of each other and not in my home. Limited time together indoors etc.
correlation is not causation
Except it’s been known for years that adenoviruses can cause these types of clots in certain cases
I think we’re all missing the key point here. Which is, what the **** is a ‘jag’?
its a small prick - as in partick thistle the football team are "the jags"
The lack of respect for other people’s view points on this thread (and forum frankly) is staggering. On both sides.
It doesn’t matter what someone else’s beliefs are, on any topic, they are their beliefs and in this country they’re entitled to them. If you don’t agree with them, that’s your right also, but that doesn’t entitle you to denigrate them.
It doesn’t matter what someone else’s beliefs are, on any topic, they are their beliefs and in this country they’re entitled to them.
Of course people are entitled to their own beliefs. But that doesn’t preclude others from criticising them for their beliefs, especially if they result in actions that could endanger others. Which is where we are with vaccinations, sadly.
I think we’re all missing the key point here. Which is, what the **** is a ‘jag’?
What tj says, a bit more accurately descriptive than a jab, although some of you lot could really do with an uppercut.
It doesn’t matter what someone else’s beliefs are, on any topic, they are their beliefs and in this country they’re entitled to them. If you don’t agree with them, that’s your right also, but that doesn’t entitle you to denigrate them.
Sorry, what does being entitled to hold a belief actually mean? That you can hold any sort of belief, no matter how implausible or fantastical and everyone else is supposed to accept it? That nobody could ever hold an opinion that could be described as ‘stupid’? I will ‘respect’ people’s opinion if it is different to mine as long as there is a valid & reasoned basis for our disagreement. If there isn’t, I’ll denigrate who I like , thanks.
its a small prick
There's a couple of jags on this thread.
The lack of respect for other people’s view points on this thread (and forum frankly) is staggering
Disagree - if your belief is clearly moronic why shouldn’t it be mocked.
I'm not getting it, yet, ive had covid and was very ill April before last, I get tested for antibodies regularly last was the other day and I have still got antibodies from then, same as my wife who is part of an NHS study, she gets tested every 2 weeks, the study has just been extended by another year, we have been advised by a doctor to not get the vaccine yet as it could damage our natural antibodies, they don't know for sure but no body does, its all guess work at the moment as to how long natural antibodies last.we have been told if we do get the jab we will definitely be ill more so than if we hadn't had antibodies and as yet they are not sure why
Also our antibodies show up as antibodies just the same as double jabbed people they admit they cannot with the tests they use tell the difference
If I get a test showing I've no antibodies left ill get the jab so I'm not anti vax I'm just using my head and listening to advice from the study group and my doctor.
One thing that does bother me though is the fact they are not testing jabbed people for antibodies , or covid patients for that matter,as so far the nhs study group has found around 10 percent of people never develop them, and surely the best way to keep on top of things is to re vaccinate when the antibodies are low/gone rather than guess, I mean initially antibodies were going to last weeks possibly months now I've had them 15 months and counting as has a lot of the study group
Also it appears a lot more double jabbed are still getting covid while proven accounts of people having it twice are very limited
So like I say when I need it I'll get it til then someone with no antibodies can jump the queue and take mine as they need it more than me
Ps I'm still doing the whole social distancing stuff as I don't want to get it twice so I'm not acting like I think I can't get it or pass it on
Imnotverygood read the bible it will answer your question
Imnotverygood read the bible it will answer your question
Which bit? The one where it says you shall not suffer a witch to live? Or one of the very many contradictory/sometimes violent/ludicrously miraculous bits, or perhaps a section which happens to coincide with my own beliefs & ignore the others?
we have been told if we do get the jab we will definitely be ill more so than if we hadn’t had antibodies
If I get a test showing I’ve no antibodies left ill get the jab so I’m not anti vax I’m just using my head and listening to advice from the study group and my doctor.
I read a few things recently that sort of match what you are saying…
- preexisting antibodies result in a stronger immune response when getting first jab
- 1st jab does offer additional protection if you already have antibodies
- 2nd jab may not be as beneficial if you had antibodies before 1st jab
Of course, if in a trial tracking the longevity of antibodies from infection, your data in the trial would become useless if you got vaccinated now and they want to track what your antibodies do naturally. That’s an unusual position of helping us all by not getting vaccinated at this stage.
its all guess work at the moment as to how long natural antibodies last
Thanks for helping change that!
Also it appears a lot more double jabbed are still getting covid while proven accounts of people having it twice are very limited
The first is expected (as we double jabbed at risk groups first and now have very high levels of infection), the second is less known as so many people who had Covid last year will not have been tested at the time of infection, or since for antibodies.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I bet her family wish she hadn’t taken the vaccine.
I can't remember if it was her or one of the other "victims" family who said they still thought she did the right thing getting vaccinated and had no regrets. It takes a lot of strength to say that when it's your loved one that died, but:
- a very small number of people do die of blood clots each year anyway
- a not insignificant number of people who get covid develop blood clots and the associated complications; a doctor friend (who may have been working off gut feel rather than science - but it seemed sensible) suggested to me that if the vaccine did cause blood clots, its likely the actual virus would too.
- some healthy "youngish" people do still end up very ill, or dying.
My wife's parents became a bit "anti-vax" for the Whooping cough vaccine in the 70's - because they knew someone who worked in a school for people with disabilities and saw a disproportionate number of kids who had apparent vaccine related disabilities. In the 80s she developed whooping cough. Her lungs are still weaker than normal today. They have said since the day she first struggled to breath with whooping cough that they regretted not getting her vaccinated. People who focus on the side effects are likely unable to appreciate the benefits as they haven't really seen the suffering the disease can cause.
It doesn’t matter what someone else’s beliefs are, on any topic, they are their beliefs and in this country they’re entitled to them.
correct
If you don’t agree with them, that’s your right also, but that doesn’t entitle you to denigrate them.
Oh if the views are stupid then we most certainly are - infact its our duty to do so otherwise you get this false equivalence where pro and anti vax views get given the same weight
Golfchick - I don't know why your other-half assumes he'll be ill for three days. The data in our company suggests that most people don't even have 1 day off never mind 3.
But 3 days is a possibility though. Still, the alternatives for those around you, especially in that specific example, make getting vaccinated a no brainer.
Golfchick..I’d be binning him off without hesitation. It’s one thing having concerns about the jab, quite another to not want it because they may be slightly ill for a few days and that’s more of a priority than protecting his vulnerable girlfriend
What’s the issue with being off for three days?
It doesn’t matter what someone else’s beliefs are, on any topic, they are their beliefs and in this country they’re entitled to them. If you don’t agree with them, that’s your right also, but that doesn’t entitle you to denigrate them.
Are you denigrating my belief that horse-tablet taking science deniers are halfwits? Why is that belief any less worthy of respect than any other belief. That's the thing with belief, you can believe what you like without requiring further evidence.
The data in our company suggests that most people don’t even have 1 day off never mind 3.
I appreciate it's not very helpful for your cause, but I was on my back for 12 hours and off work for two days. And I'll take that agin over long covid or worse in a heartbeat.
I think people who choose not to have the vaccine when they can - it's their choice, may be based on evidence of benefit to them vs risk to them, but ultimately the benefit is to others as well. It's a selfish choice.
Golfchick's other half - the benefit to someone supposedly close to them, vs the risk of feeling a bit under the weather for a couple of days? I'd be looking hard at the equality and priorities in your relationship there.
I wouldn’t be putting it past Russia to be the ones behind all this vaccine misinformation that antivaxxers are dangerously falling for and believing. Counteract their vaccine/covid conspiracy theories with that one
No, you were super vague. Some people have tried to address your point about hypocrisy, but it’s impossible really unless you actually explain what you mean, rather than leaving people to try and fill in the blanks and guess what you mean.
I was vague enough that I could make my point without specifically targeting any posters. I think if I did then if I wasn't guilty of breaking any forum rules then I'd certainly be breaking rule 1. Besides, it was a tangential point, I'd like to at least try not to derail the thread.
The beauty of science is that it doesn’t require blind faith, you can go and read from multiple sources, and changes are welcomed when new evidence arrives and is replicated and reviewed.
Indeed. In fact that point ties in nicely with the first. If the you are presented with any new information it's your duty to exercise due diligence. That doesn't mean discounting it because it doesn't agree with your point of view but rather taking it on its merits and checking sources. But in the style of STW debate that's not the done thing and instead people just dig their heels in.
Obviously some sources are more biased than others and you get complete junk science on top of that but it's easy to see how people with no understanding of the scientific method or science can get duped into believing the wrong thing.
I'll post this again as, harrowing as it is, illustrates exactly how intelligent people get duped into believing utter crap. Be that fake medicine, anti-medicine, wind turbine syndrome or anything else that landers to their prejudices or fears.
Besides, it was a tangential point, I’d like to at least try not to derail the thread.
Indeed. really not worth making all this fuss about
What gets me is the personal reasons justification...
Medical reasons, ok fine, just deciding you don't want it, not fine, but legal, I do support freedom of choice but I reserve the right to judge them based on thier choice.
If the best someone can can come up with is 'my choice' or 'personal reasons' then I can only come to the conclusion they are idiots, and I will happily call them idiots.
As some others have said, I wouldn't fall out with someone over it, but it would lead me to see them in a different light and I would distance myself from them.
Tried talking to him again this morning, asking if really whether being sick for a couple days is the reason as I’m a sensible person and if he has other reasons I’m all ears. Nope just that and he says him having the jab won’t stop him potentially bringing it home to me. He begrudgingly said ‘alright’ but it was more of a let’s shut her up response than sounded like he was actually going to do it. I swear he thinks I’m joking when I say you do realise if I catch it there is a serious risk of me dying. Making me feel pretty worthless and crap now tbh.
Grade A **** Show him this thread
Golfchick - do you really want to spend time with someone who behaves like this and shows so little respect?
I’m not vaccinated I don’t want to be !!!
I’ve worked all the way through covid(volunteered) I’m not adverse to jags etc.
I practice what I’ve always done = good hygiene.
All you sheep carry on !!
All you sheep carry on !!
An impressive display of originality and free thinking.
I practice what I’ve always done = good hygiene.
which dores not stop you getting an airbourne infection
Idiot
which dores not stop you getting an airbourne infection
Covid isn't airbourne though.
in a similar position to the OP. My brother has a huge chip on his shoulder and is refusing the jab because he's feeling social pressure to do it and apparently no one tells him what to do. All I have come up with as a solution is make him take a lateral flow test before coming in my house.
Covid isn’t airbourne though
Ok I have misspelt it but droplet infection is the main infection vector is it not - you know virus particles in the moist air we breathe out
Covid isn’t airbourne though.
Maybe by dogmatic definition of airborne, but even then there is plenty to suggest that airborne transmission is definitely a thing.
You just need to brush your teeth more often, obviously.
Wake up, sheeple!
I wouldn’t be putting it past Russia to be the ones behind all this vaccine misinformation that antivaxxers are dangerously falling for and believing.
Somewhat ironically, there is actually some truth to that. Behind all of it, no, but they're behind some of it definitely.
Somewhat ironically, there is actually some truth to that. Behind all of it, no, but they’re behind some of it definitely.
Who specifically?
Can't blame a whole country.
Covid isn’t airbourne though.
Well, except for the evidence that it probably is:
- https://www.verywellhealth.com/cdc-covid-19-airborne-transmission-5081242
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-16/covid-is-airborne-scientists-say-now-authorities-think-so-too
- https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2021/05/28/who-wrong-airborne-coronavirus/
- https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1030
Oh if the views are stupid then we most certainly are
The posts removed from this thread suggests there is clearly a limit to that though (here in this forum anyway).