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I may point them in the direction of this Article
The most telling sentence..
'Worryingly, about half of the patients on the ward today haven't been vaccinated. I have stopped asking them why, as they are clearly embarrassed."'
Okay firstly, anti-vax is a term used to describe an aversion to any vaccine, not one single case. The person in question demonstrably isn't.
Secondly, a lot of you are complete hypocrites. You choose to put faith in this one particular branch of science but if it was a question of health physics or nuclear power then suddenly you're all sceptics and telling folk not to believe industry bias etc. That's no better than the guy in this scenario.
Thirdly, what about AZ recipients? Are we second class citizens or just untermensch trash like the unvaccinated?
Finally, @grum shared values =! identical values. It's a Venn diagram, not inner party/outer party/proles. If you and your friendship group agree on everything on threat of expulsion I'd just call it what it is, grab some Koolaid and have a party.
My brother and sister have both gone full on conspiracy theory. My sister I get, she blends oils and potions. My bro however is an engineer who I’d previously thought of as pretty sane. He also has a vulnerable daughter.
I just avoid talking to them about it at the mo tbh.
So you’ve made a choice as to which of these apparently irrational beliefs you’re happy to let slide? A choice that’s presumably based on your experiences and opinions. Others might make a different judgement. See where I’m going with this?
You're conflating life threatening choices with non-life threatening choices? For all that I despise organised religion no-one died (well, in recent history) due to belief in a supernatural sky wizard.
So yes, yes I can.
As someone that has been living in France and in a mostly French family environment for the last 13 years I consider that I look at the UK from the outside in....
All I will say is....
Who was it that said it was a good thing that Communism, extreme socialism etc. never took a hold in the UK?
Secondly, a lot of you are complete hypocrites. You choose to put faith in blah blah
No. This is the 'big pharma' argument.
Is big pharma corrupt? Absolutely. Should we follow advice blindly? Absolutely not.
I'm sceptical about everything. I'm sceptical when my partner tells me she's fed the cats or done the washing up. But I'm also not daft enough to be unable to recognise when people know about a subject than I do. I'm sceptical about all those things you list, so you know what I do? I go and read some words.
Blind faith is stupid. Rejecting things you don't understand for no good reason other than you don't understand them is stupider. Scepticism and denial are two very different things.
There’s the odd one in my riding group but...
I’m neither their mother, nor their Dr. I am able to protect myself via the use of vac, mask and social distancing.
Outside of this difference of opinion they are supportive person that would step up should I take a bail out riding regardless of my thoughts on my own personal medical care.
As such I keep my opinions to myself and let them get on with their life.
Some of you sound like great friends by the way 😂.
So you’ve made a choice as to which of these apparently irrational beliefs you’re happy to let slide? A choice that’s presumably based on your experiences and opinions. Others might make a different judgement. See where I’m going with this?
A totally false conclusion? My pals odd religious or political beliefs do not put me in increased danger.
Bizarre a relative who is a medical writer by trade appears to be "agin" - so that is a topic that (like politics) I steer well clear of.
The thing is, surely if they truly believed that the best thing for them is to not be vaccinated, why wouldn't they put their reasons to me, as we are pretty *physically* similar (same sex, similar age, weight, fitness etc) and so the same reasons would apply to me.
So I do suspect a certain amount of cognitive dissonance - I wonder if decades of sorting out people's shitty papers and dodgy research has just kind of pushed them over the edge IYSWIM.
I just figure that at least they're up-front about it so I know they might be plague carriers...
For all that I despise organised religion no-one died (well, in recent history) due to belief in a supernatural sky wizard.
Say what??? There have been numerous cases of religious genocide and persecution in the past decade or 2.
A guy at work claims to have never received any vaccinations, not even a tetanus. He also claims to never have been I'll.
WTAF!
@tpbiker absolutely. Ultimately it's been about power and money, but religion is the vehicle.
You’re conflating life threatening choices with non-life threatening choices?
You conflated legal with illegal earlier on with TJs drunk driver analogy.
I'd imagine a lot of folks who ain't up fir being jagged could potentially have anxiety or other mental health issues, it's not really a stretch to think so, is it?. So, mibbe not the nicest thing to say, eejits, stupid etc....
I'd keep my nose out as its none of my business
No beer - I don't care what their reasons are - I am not having anti vax idiots ( and thats what they are) putting me in danger.
they have the choice not to have it, I have the choice to make sure their stupidity does not put me in danger
rushed through the trials and inevitably some corners will have been cut in the process
Have a listen to that podcast with the people who developed one of the vaccines. To be honest, I now have more sympathy with the “microchip” people
So why does it normally take so long then? Obviously something has been fastracked somewhere and that means corners being cut otherwise all vaccines would be made in less than a year, they dont delay the others just for the sake of it.
Just to be clear, i u derstand why they have done tbis way this time and agree with it (i have had one dose of pfizer and am due another shortly) However, to say that tje long yerm effects have been as well tested as vaccines which have been around for donkeys years is clearly not true.
A covid jab is proba ly more risky than a tetanus jab but not as risky as getting covid
andrew
Its merely a modification of other vaccines / produced using the same methods and its had far far more effort put into it than anything comparable hence being created quickly
You've no idea the amount of validation etc that goes in, even at the basic manufacturing level. We make a pretty basic antibiotic, it's been about for decades, but all those standards have to be met, so much documentation that goes through loadss of different depts and regulators, auditors etc.
The effort to push through was quite incredible.
Our own vaccination wasnt ready to be used, and looks like it'll be delayed til autumn. If it was as easy as some suggest, and corners cut, that wouldn't have been kicked back.
And I'm just an engineer pleb in the big cog! What do I know?! 🤣
So why does it normally take so long then? Obviously something has been fastracked somewhere and that means corners being cut otherwise all vaccines would be made in less than a year, they dont delay the others just for the sake of it.
Some very knowledgeable people have answered this question on this very thread at least half a dozen times. Maybe just go back & read it. Alternatively: TLDR. The vaccines have had virtually unlimited resources thrown at them, and stuff that gets done in sequence has been done in parallel.
Thanks StW you've been as helpful as ever.
Once 90%(ish) of the population are vaccinated the disease will probably disappear
Just like the flu!....oh, ..wait
Say what??? There have been numerous cases of religious genocide and persecution in the past decade or 2.
In the UK?
You conflated legal with illegal earlier on with TJs drunk driver analogy.
No, I suggested that one risky thing wasn't as disparate from another risky thing as you seem to be insinuating. Not sure what legality has to do with anything here.
So why does it normally take so long then?
Because we're not 'normally' crisis-managing a global emergency situation and resources are finite.
to say that tje long yerm effects have been as well tested as vaccines which have been around for donkeys years is clearly not true.
Is it? It might feel that way but it's not 'clearly' anything of the sort.
If you and your friendship group agree on everything on threat of expulsion I’d just call it what it is, grab some Koolaid and have a party.
It does get a bit Wild Wild Country sometimes but I'm ok with that 🤪
Just like the flu!….oh, ..wait
There is no such thing as "the" flu and nothing even remotely approaching 90% of the population has ever been vaccinated against any of the influenza strains.
Just like Smallpox. Oh, wait.
Just like Polio. Oh, wait.
Just like Measles. Oh, Andrew Wakefield.
To the OP it wouldn't bother me. But if it bothers you say.
How sure is she about Covid? She’s not going to get pregnant if she’s dead
Not much risk of dying to a healthy woman in her 30s is there?
My BIL is anti vax, his reasons are that big pharma are getting rich out of it & Boris & his mates will be making a fortune. He mentioned the blood clot thing but this holds little value as he’s a fairly frequent long haul flier. My wife has told him that if he’s ever hospitalised with COVID he’ll have an injection every day to reduce the chance of blood clots.
I despair.
Some very knowledgeable people have answered this question on this very thread at least half a dozen times. Maybe just go back & read it. Alternatively: TLDR. The vaccines have had virtually unlimited resources thrown at them, and stuff that gets done in sequence has been done in parallel.
Not on this thread but on the main CV19 thread.
Most of the delays in trialling medicines are down to resource; identifying people to take part in trials (virtually unlimited candidates here); time taken by people to analyse data (everyone stop what they're doing and come and help with this); time taken by regulators to review the submissions (put this one to the front of the queue and everyone work on it)
As someone said earlier, if it takes a man a day to dig a hole, if they put two people on it and dig it in 1/2 a day, is the hole no longer a hole?
Your friend is in one of the very hard to reach groups. We have done two things:
- lead by peer example, then give people time to come around.
- remind people that vaccinations are about protecting others not the individual. Basically you’re a selfish arse freeloading on others if you don’t get vaccinated. Just using nicer language. So far only one of my guys hasn’t got vaccinated.
I’m of the opinion that the stick we now need is: no vaccine, no pub, no cafes, no buying booze (yes I realise what this last one will lead to).
What do you do when your best mate is anti Vax?
Bin him or her off. Why waste time on selfish twunts?
Is he Anti Vax or is he just anti this vaccine?
It’s easy to see why so many people are choosing not to have this. It’s easy to believe they are all tin foil hat wearing nutters or just selfish but away from the conspiracy nuts there are rather a lot of very well respected and highly qualified scientists, doctors and epidemiologists that are against the vaccine.
Mix this with the adverse affects and you get resistance. Personally to date I know of 3 people that have suffered adverse effects, a friend suffered nerve damage immediately post second jab and still can’t work, a guy I know blacked out after first jab and had to be hospitalised and a friends 16 year old daughter has not had a period for 7 weeks since second jab.
I think the thing really causing the most reluctance now though is people getting ill despite a double jab. For example I read this week that in Bradford Royal Infirmary half the Covid patients are already jabbed.
So you can start to see that the decisions people are making does not necessarily make them “idiots” or lesser beings to the rest of us. Perhaps they are simply making an informed choice.
It’s easy to see why so many people are choosing not to have this.
It's really not.
Perhaps they are simply making an informed choice.
No, they're really not.
Their choice to make though.
but away from the conspiracy nuts there are rather a lot of very well respected and highly qualified scientists, doctors and epidemiologists that are against the vaccine.
There are?🤔
Crikey..I'm as pro vax as they come and think those that don't get a jab are absolute idiots, but I can't believe so many folks would bin off their best mate if they didn't get it! Maybe you don't value your mates as much as me, but my best mate I've known since I was 3 and I'd literally take a bullet for him. Id certainly not cut him off because he didn't get jabbed.
friends 16 year old daughter has not had a period for 7 weeks since second jab.
Are 16 year olds even offered the jab?
Their choice to make though.
Indeed it is - and I would fight for them to have that right
that does not mean that I would continue with them as a friend and they certainly would not be entering my house or getting within 2 m of me
As Duir said there are plenty Doctors,scientists and ‘smart’ people refusing this vaccine.
Bollox - citation please
Not much risk of dying to a healthy woman in her 30s is there?
Yes.
Next question?
My BIL is anti vax, his reasons are that...
... he's a moron?
It’s easy to see why so many people are choosing not to have this.
It is. Of course it is. But.
there are rather a lot of very well respected and highly qualified scientists, doctors and epidemiologists that are against the vaccine.
Are there? Name one.
Crikey..I’m as pro vax as they come and think those that don’t get a jab are absolute idiots, but I can’t believe so many folks would bin off their best mate if they didn’t get it!
It's a non-issue for me because I exercised quality control decades ago. I do not have anyone I'd class as a "best mate" who would be variously anti-vax, brexit-voting or exhibiting any other form of random ****ery. I excised my life of assholes two decades ago because life's too short. I'll chat and debate with those people online or in pubs and I welcome it, but they aren't any shape of 'friend' that I recognise.
@cougar, he’s always been the one that went against the grain, according to my Mrs. Always goes against best advice etc, maybe a moron but just retired at 55 & is very well off. Won’t get to enjoy it if the worst happens though will he.
People change, grow apart or whatever all the time, as above I wouldn't cut someone off for not having it but I'd kinda lose respect for them and be less keen to hang out with them.
What about the Millions of people dying of starvation yearly or from diarrhoea yearly?
Literal whataboutery. Is not having the CV19 vaccine going to help them somehow?
Notice there’s no figures for double jagged who’s in hospital. I personally know lots of double jagged ill with Covid.
Oh god, not this again.
Of those that die in car crashes, the vast majority, virtually all, were wearing seatbelts. So we should do away with them, right?
The vaccine is not 100% effective. It will not protect / save everyone. If we had 100% vaccination rates there would stlll be hospitalisations and deaths. Just whole load less than without. There are 50,000 new cases per day currently, but deaths are less than 1 in 1000. It was more like 1 in 70 or 80 before. Why do YOU think that is.
What about the Millions of people dying of starvation yearly or from diarrhoea yearly?
Literal whataboutery. Is not having the CV19 vaccine going to help them somehow?
In the context of the ‘medical emergency’ and speed of vaccine
Although ivermectin would have been a lot quicker, cheaper and more successful.
Notice there’s no figures for double jagged who’s in hospital. I personally know lots of double jagged ill with Covid.
Yeah this is a classic example of people thinking they have the ability to look at evidence when they really don't.
There's a strong correlation between double jabbed people and very old people, and very old people are far more likely to be hospitalised with covid...
Thirdly, what about AZ recipients? Are we second class citizens or just untermensch trash like the unvaccinated?
You're more likely to have a better and longer lasting T-cell response.
Erm because of the previous waves and the delta getting more transmissible but not as deadly
Notice there’s no figures for double jagged who’s in hospital. I personally know lots of double jagged ill with Covid.
Oh god, not this again.
Of those that die in car crashes, the vast majority, virtually all, were wearing seatbelts. So we should do away with them, right?
The vaccine is not 100% effective. It will not protect / save everyone. If we had 100% vaccination rates there would stlll be hospitalisations and deaths. Just whole load less than without. There are 50,000 new cases per day currently, but deaths are less than 1 in 1000. It was more like 1 in 70 or 80 before. Why do YOU think that is.
Although ivermectin would have been a lot quicker, cheaper and more successful.
Who says?
I would...tell them I value them as a friend but are concerned by their attitude to covid vaccination and, for that reason, will limit contact to outdoors only - and maintain sensible precautions, even if they don't/won't.
If they won't accept that...tough because I won't risk my health for the sake of their misguided/wrong view.
Health first; everything else is secondary.
Although ivermectin would have been a lot quicker, cheaper and more successful.
Who says?
Lots and lots of Doctors
@grum try Google but it’s probably been censored out
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TG6BuSjwP4o
Although ivermectin would have been a lot quicker, cheaper and more successful.
Ivermectin is an antiparasitic drug. True is shows activity against RNA viruses in lab culture but at high concentrations not suitable for humans. There is no data to prove that it has any effect on sars-cov-2 infections. You'll have to wait for large scale studies before claiming that.
Ivermectin is an antiparasitic drug. True is shows activity against RNA viruses in lab culture but at high concentrations not suitable for humans. There is no data to prove that it has any effect either. You’ll have to wait for large scale studies before claiming that.
Exactly! Why didn’t they do that study when it was proven to work and been used safely for years! Surly a lot quicker and cheaper.
Ahh cheaper..repurpose = no £££$$$
Noticed today Canada has signed up to 2024 with Pfizer for Covid Boosters
@grum try Google but it’s probably been censored out
Oh cool a YouTube video by a former producer of Fox & Friends, seems a legit source of science knowledge.
@grum the original video from dark horse podcast was taken down. Censorship
I guess your to intelligent to go listen to it though
This maybe apocryphal but an acquaintance was trying to purade me there is a correlation between those in the younger age brackets electing not to have the vaccine and those doing bonus related sales jobs. i.e. the sort of people who do self orientated me me me style jobs making self orientated me me me style vaccine choices.
Getting the jab for me was ENTIRELY about the benefit to the community. Those that look at the odds and make the decision to not get jabbed based on the risk to themselves without thinking out about the broader context I will always think less of. I'd put them in the same lump of folk as the fly tippers - not out and out villains but those who the rest of us would probably get along better if they were to not be around anymore. The clagnuts if you will.
Anyhow back to mates and that.
Make your own choices
Exactly! Why didn’t they do that study when it was proven to work and been used safely for years! Surly a lot quicker and cheaper.
because it is toxic at high levels and low levels don't do anything. There is more to it than the cost of the drug. Vaccines prevent infections, drugs treat infections. Prevent the disease and you help prevent hospitals filling up with people, you help prevent people being in ICU and you help prevent death. I'd rather have a vaccine than get infected and treat the disease.
But it’s censorship
De-monetising conspiracy theory misinformation videos isn't censorship though is it.
My personal answer to the ops question.
I'd remain friends with them but I'd point out that interactions would need to be via text or phone etc for the foreseeable as I also have obligations to those around me I need to keep safe.
He would have to understand that and deal with it as his actions,or lack of, have consequences.
Just as I wouldn't accept a lift in a car from a friend I know to be drunk.
Whats the misinformation?
Did you watch it or listen?
Bret Weinstein is a muppet - I would not listen/watch him ever. He thinks the spike protein produced by vaccines of sars-cov-2 is dangerous and cytotoxic (with no evidence) and is a spreader of disinformation.
but the jags not preventing it either
yes it is.
'bikeforfreedom' joined the forum at end of May this year as a 'free member' and has only posted to 3 very closely linked threads...this one, the main coronavirus one and anti-vax demo in Glasgow.
Troll; ignore - do not engage with it/him/her.
I disagree with one of my best mates about pretty much everything. Politics. Covid. Lockdown. Kids. Climate Change. Religion. And so on. We have some tremendous arguments. At the end of the day who can prove they are 100% right in anything - I can’t. Agree to disagree and crack on.
Going to see him in late August - bring it in 😁.
@Cougar - going back to my religious friend of the family, no not JW but 7th Day Adventist. We don't see her often enough to be invested in her decision. My only concern is that my mum has zero antibodies thanks to cancer and chemo (like 2-3 million people in this country) so we're cautious about contact (not that I'm clear whether people who are vaccinated can also transmit it - we're all still at Defcon1). Thankfully we're not supposed to know that she's refused the vaccination so I can say things like 'anti-vax crazies' perfectly innocently. I'm not going to discuss it with her because I'd want to follow up with how the world wasn't made in six days and isn't about to end any day now. Live and let live (except for Brexiters). For the record, she's also a NHS doctor (of Psychology - go figure etc).
No. This is the ‘big pharma’ argument.
Is big pharma corrupt? Absolutely. Should we follow advice blindly? Absolutely not.
I’m sceptical about everything. I’m sceptical when my partner tells me she’s fed the cats or done the washing up. But I’m also not daft enough to be unable to recognise when people know about a subject than I do. I’m sceptical about all those things you list, so you know what I do? I go and read some words.
Blind faith is stupid. Rejecting things you don’t understand for no good reason other than you don’t understand them is stupider. Scepticism and denial are two very different things.
@cougar Umm, I was asking why you are all so happy to accept the scientific proof for this but some of you choose to ignore scientific evidence and objective studies in other areas because it suits your agenda. There is no difference between that and the person in question. Which makes those people hypocrites.
Anyway, I'm still waiting for someone to show the working to prove someone who is against one vaccination is anti-vax. It's not like it's something you dabble in at the weekend, it's a fundamentally binary choice.
Back to the OP, just be glad your friend isn’t like bikeforfreedom.
Kelvin - let's hope OP's friend isn't bikeforfreedom.
If he was genuinely concerned about potential side effects I'd completely understand having had covid/long covid and serious side effects from the first Astra Zeneca jab.
Go watch some https://hugotalks.com/ rather than the BBC
Literally the first article on that site, "HYPNOTIST REVEALS GOVERNMENT BRAINWASHING TACTICS". Well, I'm convinced of its legitimacy.
That's one of the single most ludicrous and blatantly crackpot sites I've ever seen on the Internet, and I've been on the Internet longer that the web has so that's quite a feat, well done.
Although ivermectin would have been a lot quicker, cheaper and more successful.
Ah, you're one of those.
A vaccine researched and developed by half the medical scientists on the planet? No thanks.
Worming tablets for horses? Sign me up!
Dolt.
Ahh cheaper..repurpose = no £££$$$
The vaccines have been developed and shared without profit.
I guess your to intelligent to go listen to it though
"you're."
"too."
If you're going to see fit to lecture people on their intelligence you should probably learn some words first.
he’s always been the one that went against the grain, according to my Mrs.
Yeah. There's going against the grain because you're a radical free-thinker, and that's to be applauded. And then there's going against the grain because you think you know better than people who've devoted their life to studying something.
@cougar Umm, I was asking why you are all so happy to accept the scientific proof for this but some of you choose to ignore scientific evidence and objective studies in other areas because it suits your agenda. There is no difference between that and the person in question. Which makes those people hypocrites.
Sorry, I've clearly missed something here. What 'studies in other areas' are you accusing me of ignoring?
Anyway, I’m still waiting for someone to show the working to prove someone who is against one vaccination is anti-vax. It’s not like it’s something you dabble in at the weekend, it’s a fundamentally binary choice.
You want an explanation as to why someone who is against a vaccination is against a vaccination? That's a question for them, not us.
If you're arguing that, as I presume you are, that being against this particular vaccine rollout doesn't make you an "anti-vaxxer" per se then in isolation I'd agree with you. But it's far from binary, it's by degrees.
Being sceptical is good. Denying science because you don't understand it, not so much.
Sorry, I’ve clearly missed something here. What ‘studies in other areas’ are you accusing me of ignoring?
None. I was using the collective 'you' and then said 'some of you' ignore evidence in other areas. I think we know each other well enough to know I'd be on a hiding to nothing if I was accusing you of that.
If you’re arguing that, as I presume you are, that being against this particular vaccine rollout doesn’t make you an “anti-vaxxer” per se then in isolation I’d agree with you. But it’s far from binary, it’s by degrees.
That's exactly my point. But anti-vaxxers, by their nature, are binary. Unless you can show me an anti-vaxxer that is against all vaccines except one for a specific and odd reason. This is simply people being cautious through fear, ignorance or a bit of both.
Being sceptical is good. Denying science because you don’t understand it, not so much.
I agree, however with the amount of information, misinformation and downright lies being pumped out can you not at least find it understandable that some people may simply become overwhelmed and make a decision to forego any treatment until they are satisfied it's safe to do so? Look how many people hadn't heard of the immunity aspect in this thread, myself included. It's easy to think everyone knows the same as you do if you're immersed in it but if you're just sick of it all and going through the motions as so many folk are then that sort of info may pass you by.
Cougar, as usual admirable job on the science and facts. Not so admirable on the tolerance. You will not persuade anyone with ridicule and contempt.
Back to the OP, just be glad your friend isn’t like bikeforfreedom
@Kelvin I’m certain that your friends would all fit in a telephone box at the same time.
what other studies in other areas are 'we' ignoring then?
I'm a scientist, I manage 40 scientists, and by their very nature all are sceptical. Pretty much the first thing any of them does when they find something new out is to show it to their peers and ask them to help spot where they went wrong. And they do get it wrong from time to time. Just because a scientist wrote it doesn't make it a cast iron fact. But by the time it's been through several layers of checking, rechecking, peer review papers, and so on, it's getting close.
But some scientists are crackpots, and by publishing via less rigorous routes, or selecting less rigorous reviewers, can beat the system. No denying. Wakefield, for example.
And then there's someone with an opinion and a twitter account or a youtube channel. It's a very useful new media, but it's not the same as a paper in Nature Comms or the BMJ.
I'm prepared to listen but at some point refreshing the same old stuff over again at the next whack-a-mole sceptic that comes along - do you believe the earth is round or do you need to see the workings out again? I just don't believe that they are randomly popping up because it looks like a good place needing a debate (or even some 'perspective') on some alternative views - and if they are, then they should do their own research and go and read some past threads on exactly the same material because we're beyond explaining again, it's been explained multiple times already.
"But there's lots of double vaxxed people in hospital" - YES WE KNOW AND WE EXPLAINED WHY ALREADY!
and yes, the search function's rubbish and the Coronavirus thread is long - use site: singletrackworld ivermectin as a first example, and then fill your boots. Some very knowledgeable info if you go and look.
Notice there’s no figures for double jagged who’s in hospital
I hope John Prescott is ok
Oh, and a very quick google on that ^
Later on I'll suggest (again) why that is if you still don't like the facts.
Kelvin – let’s hope OP’s friend isn’t bikeforfreedom.
They won't be as the OP made the point that he is not a full on nutter