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That's it really. Best mate told me just over two weeks ago that wouldn't get the vaccine. He's not a full on nutter, he's not worried about Bill Gates and micro chips etc but he thinks the virus poses less threat. We're mid 40's and he's not worried about catching the virus and is more worried about potential risks from the vaccine. I shouldn't let it bother me but I think once you stop trusting the scientists it's a bit of a slippery slope. I also know he's stubborn as hell and won't change his mind unless he catches it and ends up in hospital in a bad way. Anyway, I just can't stop thinking about it.
Get him really really shit faced then stab him in the arse with a needle
Let him get on with it, its his choice ultimately whether he wants to take the risk of having it versus the risk of not having it. You've had yours presumably, you are as safe as you can be.
Buy him a Hoover
I’m in the same position as my best mate won’t have it (I have). He has his reasons, some of them are valid so I respect his choice and just carry on?
It’s not mandated, he’s entirely free to avoid doing it if he wants.
I’m surprised if it would cause issues if he’s a really good mate? I’m certainly not planning on losing a lifelong friendship over it. None of our other mutual friends have issues with his choice either.
Leave him to it, if he's worried about vaccine side effects he may change his mind as more time passes.
What they said, it's his call.
Life's too short to hang out with stupid people. If his judgement is this poor over vaccines is it going to be good over other issues? I wouldn't cut him off exactly but I find it hard to have much respect for people who are choosing to believe in nonsense.
Each to their own - however, the idea that the vaccine poses more threat than the disease itself is one I personally would find difficult to accept..
I have some neighbours who have gone pretty much tinfoil hat over it & believe it’s a scam. That kind of batsh1t crazy thinking I most definitely have no time for!
It's his choice and if he's a good mate just use it as an excuse to take the P whenever the opportunity arises.
Any good mate will handle the jesting for what it is.
For me that would be a deal breaker and perhaps end of friendship. I wouldn't be in his company indoors or out as he poses a danger to you and others
choosing to believe in nonsense.
It's not complete nonsense.
There is risk in taking any vaccine or medicine.
It's all about when he perceives the risk to be. In his case, he's made a judgement call that as a fit and healthy 40 something, the virus poses little risk to him and he's very unlikely to get seriously ill from it. Which is very true.
Although you could argue that he should take it as it helps reduce transmission rates and it would be beneficial to others.
Personally, as a slightly over weight 52 year old, I'm doubled jabbed.
Similar situation. Friend is well educated, late 40s, and thinks that his risk from the vaccine is higher than his risk from covid. I've had both vaccinations. I also have various other friends who've had variations of long covid, and none of them recommend it.
He also is adamant that he doesn't need to wear a mask since he is exempt - apparently you don't need to wear one if you find it's annoying.
I wouldn't fall out over it but I also wouldn't avoid the topic and would probably call him a helmet at most opportunities
Would make things awkward going forward, I'm not going to happily invite an asymptomatic mate into my home, or goto into their home, or go to any indoor public places with them where masks aren't mandatory.
I'm double jabbed +4 weeks, my partner is double jabbed +12 weeks, but I have no intension of purposefully testing how effect our vaccination or the effective of the vaccines of our elderly relatives just because Boris The Butcher says we can.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map shows most areas of Southampton as floating around or above 400 cases per 100k population in the last 7 days, highest it has been since such data has been available as far as I recall. Covid is rife and apparently the city has one of the worst vaccine take-ups on the south coast.
he’s not worried about Bill Gates and micro chips etc but he thinks the virus poses less threat
If he's seen the numbers and come to that conclusion I'd be more worried about his maths than anything else, though some of the newer strains' vaccine evasion makes it less clear cut than it was for lower risk people.
Vaccines aren't just about protecting ourself, they're about protecting everyone.
If this guy is fit and young there's every chance that even if he caught the disease he'd be ok. That's not really the point.
The vaccine is to help eradicate the disease so that vulnerable members of society don't get it. Once 90%(ish) of the population are vaccinated the disease will probably disappear. Remind your friend that while he might be ok without the vaccine he should have it to protect his parents and grandparents, anyone with respiratory issues, those with Downs Syndrome, etc. etc.
johnners +1.
May be he's an edge case so he's wise to apply caution, but I'll wager he's better at "making shit up" than counting.
People only seem to reveal themselves when stress and decision making falls upon them.
I'd find it VERY difficult to deal with, you will have to make you own call.
There's a lovely Chilean lady at our office who does the cleaning. She hasn't had the vaccine based on the same 'advice' about harm levels. She got this advice from her colleague, the one who tattooed 'CHELSEA FC' on his own forehead.
That's my own intelligence bar for the voluntarily unvaccinated. Your opinion may vary.
His choice really, I'd think we was a bit selfish but it wouldn't bother me that much.
On the other hand if he started to go down the route of a former mate of mine that also used to post on here and start posting anti vax/ it's all a hoax bollocks I'd sack him off quick smart.
I wouldn’t be in his company indoors or out as he poses a danger to you and others
How's that then?. Vaccine reduces severe illness, not transmission.
He is more likely to catch it thus more likely to pass it on.
Vaccine reduces severe illness, not transmission.
A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) are less likely to have asymptomatic infection or to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html
A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) are less likely to have asymptomatic infection or to transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others.
So, we've only to hang with folks that have vaccines other than AZ? 🤣
Couple of mates at work are anti vax. We spoke about it a while back and that was that. Still mates, each to their own, makes absolutely no difference to our friendship.
I had my second jab the other day.
Maybe,he may pick up a much more dangerous virus, from mooching around on anti vaxing bumf on the tinterweb🤷🏼♂️
Life’s too short to hang out with stupid people.
unfortunately, in my case, it's my eldest son.
I don't understand the reason he's given me, and I'm not sure he does either. He says 'it's too politicised right now, and he'll like to see results of more longitudinal studies'.
I think the truth is more that he wants to keep his girlfriend on side so is going along with her nonsense.
Predictably, he's now caught it (multiple positive tests) and is laid up feeling rough. His girlfriend has same symptoms as him but denies having covid.
Ask him if you can have dibs on his bike/s if anything should happen?
Just so you will have something to remember him by.
makes absolutely no difference to our friendship.
This.
It's quite bizarre, the idea of only having friends who think the same way as you do.
Life’s too short to hang out with stupid people.
I don’t think this helps. Calling people stupid isn’t a good way to get them to consider changing their minds. At the end of the day it’s a choice and some people choose not to have it. Unless it becomes obligatory those of us who take the vaccine will just have to live with that fact.
Leave them to it. Arrange to meet up for a beer with them next summer. Say it’s a shame that it’ll have to wait ‘till then.
Vaccine reduces severe illness, not transmission.
This isn’t true. What is true is that trials for all the vaccines were focused on preventing illness (and overall safety) not transmission, but there has been plenty of evidence since that transmission is also reduced… but importantly, if that is to make any difference to our lives, it requires the vast majority of people to be vaccinated. That includes teens. And it also includes older people currently avoiding the vaccines because of their individual perception of risk to themselves.
makes absolutely no difference to our friendship.
This.
It’s quite bizarre, the idea of only having friends who think the same way as you do.
If we were talking about appreciation of art or whether pineapple is acceptable on a pizza I think you'd have a point. If on the other hand if we're talking about someone who presumably won't suffer any meaningful side effects from a vaccine and will help eradicate an awful disease and help others into the bargain...
Eejits.
This isn’t true
I've never seen any large scale evidence, so tend to still keep my distance.
If we were talking about appreciation of art or whether pineapple is acceptable on a pizza I think you’d have a point
Religion, the middle east, politics, sport.... There's lots of stuff I have differing opinions from my mates on, but ditch one on a single opinion?. Not me. Fair enough if one of them outed themself as racist, or a bit rapey, but it's hardly that is it.
Has he viewed any statements from people who thought the vaccine was a bad idea only to catch the virus and regret it ?. There are a number of those in the papers, all saying the same that they so regret their actions in not being vaccinated when they had the opportunity.
I think there are different levels of anti vax. Those that right or wrong look at the evidence and make a choice. It is their choice and while you might try and counter the strength of their evidence and / or their logic in the end we all have freedom to choose. I wouldn't fall out over it but I would be circumspect about giving them the chance to mix and pass it on which is my choice.
Then there's those that actively spread these falsehoods and conspiracy theories, for what ends I don't know but commonly seems to be just to cause argument and division. I'm pretty well out of patience with them.
Well he is risking being one of the people who may still put pressure on the NHS.
Each to their own – however, the idea that the vaccine poses more threat than the disease itself is one I personally would find difficult to accept..
And one that should be questioned with him with a simple "what data are you looking at to suggest the vaccine poses more threat that any effects of catching Covid?"
Refuses the vaccine and refuses to wear a mask, last year or so been a total pain due to being clinically vulnerable and it's a lot to do with people like him unwilling to do the responsible thing to help society combat this pandemic.
For me that would be a deal breaker and perhaps end of friendship. I wouldn’t be in his company indoors or out as he poses a danger to you and others
Not sure about that TBH, if he's following all other rules (now social norms) and continues to wear a mask, making sure to limit his risk of passing on the virus to others, I see no reason to just cut the fella loose.
It's worth remembering even once you're double jabbed you're just as able to be a carrier/spreader, half the problem now is boomers who've been vaccinated, think they can slack off on other control measures and don't understand their duty of care to others...
Ultimately, despite being double jabbed now I can't say I never had misgivings about the various vaccines, their rapid development and trialing, etc. Issues like the clotting side effects for younger recipients of AZ highlight that point. On balance I felt the risks were minimal and overall preferable to to the higher fatality risk from covid itself. But simply dismissing a friend's concerns as "stupid" isn't going to help either your friendship or to convince him...
It’s quite bizarre, the idea of only having friends who think the same way as you do.
The idea of having some kind of shared values with your friends is weird?
He's prioritising his own needs/perceived wellbeing over the good of society. There's a lot of people like that about, I have limited time for them.
Tricky one. I can't see how someone that age can look at the data and come to that conclusion, so I'd be wondering what else is pushing them that way.
I'd not be refusing to have anything to do with them though. Being odd and/or stupid is a prerequisite for being mates with me.
half the problem now is boomers who’ve been vaccinated
...and the other half?
It’s worth remembering even once you’re double jabbed you’re just as able to be a carrier/spreader, half the problem now is boomers who’ve been vaccinated, think they can slack off on other control measures and don’t understand their duty of care to others…
don't disagree on the bit about taking reasonable precautions whether vaxxed, 2x vaxxed, etc.
but there is growing evidence to suggest that vaccination does reduce transmission - about ten posts above yours.
He’s prioritising his own needs/perceived wellbeing over the good of society.
How do you know that? I know folks who've been double jagged, and carry on now as if this shit is over.
Others who aren't sure about the vaccine, but take all precautions.
Which one would you rather spend time with?.
It’s quite bizarre, the idea of only having friends who think the same way as you do.
irts nothing to do with that and everything to do with finding out one of your friends is a selfish arse who is prepared to put you and yours in danger because of being dimwitted
It’s worth remembering even once you’re double jabbed you’re just as able to be a carrier/spreader
Nope - you can still be a carrier / spreader but the odds are much lower
People make stupid decisions all the time. If you spent your life purging anyone who did, you’d quickly run out of friends and it’d be exhausting.
IMHO it reflects poorly on your friend who is a) a bit dim and/or b) antisocial. But I have friends who are both.
Not to mention if you shun him because of this he’s more likely to fall in with a different crowd who won’t nag him to get the vaccine.
I know my attitudes are harsh but life is just too short to spend it with people like that
I have friends who are devoutly religious, who are brexiteer tories, who are anti bicycle. this is a whole 'nother level of stupidity and danger.
No beer - would you let your kids get in a car with someone who thinks drinking and driving is OK?
It’s not complete nonsense.
There is risk in taking any vaccine or medicine.
I do risk analysis and management as part of my job.
Whilst this is technically true, it is wooly thinking. There is of course a risk in having the vaccine. There is a risk in taking Paracetamol; there is a risk in eating peanuts; there is a risk in having sex; there is a risk when crossing the road; there is a risk in sticking your willy in an alligator's mouth. Are we going to argue that all these risks are equal? And then, there's a risk in catching CoV2.
There are superficially legitimate concerns to be had. "We don't know the long-term effects of the vaccine" for instance. But this doesn't really hold water because vaccination in and of itself is not new technology. We've been vaccinating for 200 years, we know how it works. "It's been rushed to market" is also valid at first glance but consider this: let's say a man can dig a hole in an hour; if two men dig a hole in half an hour, is it any lesser a hole? It's been developed remarkably quickly because the entire planet has thrown a vast amount of resource at it.
And "something about side effects" is where we came in here. We know the potential side-effects of Covid19, they're well documented by now and they include mildly inconvenient things like 'death.' Compare and contrast, how many people have had the vaccine and died as a direct result? If that's not 'zero' then it's tending statistically insignificantly close to it. Even if you're concerned about the vaccine for whatever perfectly valid or bullshit reasons you care to come up with, surely, surely it's preferable to dying, or to put your loved ones and everyone else around you at avoidable risk?
Having the vaccine is a choice and the notion that it will ever become mandatory is conspiracy theory bollocks. But if your choice is 'no thanks' when you're perfectly capable of having it then you're either a selfish asshole or a moron.
... which is also a choice.
Choose wisely.
Natural selection init...
If Covid dont get him something else will...
And one that should be questioned with him with a simple “what data are you looking at to suggest the vaccine poses more threat that any effects of catching Covid?”
That would be the common sense thing to do - but in my experience common sense isn’t in abundance when you’re dealing with these kind of people..
It’s been rushed to market” is also valid at first glance but consider this: let’s say a man can dig a hole in an hour; if two men dig a hole in half an hour, is it any lesser a hole? It’s been developed remarkably quickly because the entire planet has thrown a vast amount of resource at it.
Best analogy I’ve heard yet 👍
If they were ignoring self isolation rules etc I’d be marking them as a dick and binning them off. But no vaccine, I’d think they were a bit of an idiot and then carry on as usual. Certainly wouldn’t be losing mates over them making a personal decision that’s totally legal, even if I did think it was a stupid choice
Best analogy I’ve heard yet 👍
Aw, thanks.
My work colleague who lives in Austria won't have the Vax, very clever lady but still have it. I don't try persuade her as both times I've been hospitalised after both jabs.
I should probably add:
There's no harm in asking questions and expressing concerns. This is good, this is healthy, this is sadly all too rare and your mate should be applauded for it. People shouldn't intrinsically trust everything they read and hear.
But when you receive answers and reassurances to those queries from people who know what they're talking about, "experts" if you will, and you still stubbornly refuse to revise your opinions, then you're an idiot.
For me, it would depend on their reasons. I know two women in their 30s who aren't having it, one for religious reasons (apparently some vaccines are developed using fetal cells) the other because she wants to get pregnant in the next couple of years and just isn't sure about it. While I don't think they're right, the reasons aren't dumb enough for me to cut them off. I do have zero tolerance for the 'plandemic', Bill Gates, conspiracy theory rubbish though and anti-maskers but the only place I hear of idiots like that is here.
No beer – would you let your kids get in a car with someone who thinks drinking and driving is OK?
Aye, cos that's the ****ing same isn't it? 🙈
one for religious reasons (apparently some vaccines are developed using fetal cells)
JW?
There's some tricksy wording going on here, this is accurate but disingenuous.
Foetal cell lines are not the same as 'lumps of dead baby'. They are grown in a lab from a small number of cells harvested back in the 1970s.
And yes, vaccines generally were developed using cell lines. It's an essential process to test whether it works before sticking them in people. The CV2 vaccines do not contain cell lines at all, so if her concern is around being injected with foetal cells then it's moot.
And if her concern is a moral one, let's ask the Pope.
the other because she wants to get pregnant in the next couple of years and just isn’t sure about it.
How sure is she about Covid? She's not going to get pregnant if she's dead.
Aye, cos that’s the **** same isn’t it? 🙈
It's not wildly dissimilar. In both cases they're wilfully and avoidably putting other people's lives at risk, are they not.
The vaccine was also developed quickly because it in no way was. I went back to uni about 18 years ago and mRNA vaccines were being studied then. Oxford put out a video explaining that they'd been looking at how to develop vaccines against unknown diseases for some time. Having all the extra resources and collaborative efforts thrown at it will certainly have helped speed things along.
(apparently some vaccines are developed using fetal cells)
The vaccine was also developed quickly because it in no way was.
These points and more discussed here (please pass it on)…
https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrcwqX/
Sarah Gilbert and Catherine Green
Friday, 16 July
Before the World Health Organisation declared the outbreak of SARS-CoV-2 a pandemic, scientists Professor Sarah Gilbert and Dr Catherine Green had already started developing a vaccine against the virus which would go on to bring the world to a standstill. Their book, Vaxxers reveals the story behind the Oxford AstraZeneca jab, one of the greatest accomplishments in the history of medicine.
. There is a risk in taking Paracetamol; there is a risk in eating peanuts; there is a risk in having sex; there is a risk when crossing the road; there is a risk in sticking your willy in an alligator’s mouth.
Man, I'm lucky to be alive!
Which one would you rather spend time with?.
Are there any other options? For instance people who get the vaccines as soon as available and still take reasonable precautions. Cos that applies to all my friends anyway, thankfully.
I have quite a lot of friends who are 25-35 who are all keen to get vaccinated asap because they are educated and socially responsible. Knowing that helps confirm why I'm friends with them.
I’m in a similar situation with my riding mate and my work mate…both have their reasons.
Fortunately neither have tried to persuade me from getting jabbed.
I don’t let it bother me, they’re grownups and if they get ill, hopefully they’ll be ok.
I’d rather hang out with someone who has made a decision against taking a drug they are not happy with than hang out with some of the dramatic life sucking miseries on this thread.
I’d rather hang out with someone who has made a decision against taking a drug they are not happy with than hang out with some of the dramatic life sucking miseries on this thread.
Ohhhh you’re soooo edgy….
Swoon 😍
So you would rather be put at unneeded risk than lose a friend?
I think theres a big difference between the groups who say I'm not having g it because Bill Gates wants to put a microchip in me and the group who say I'm reluctant to have it because it appears to have been rushed through the trials and inevitably some corners will have been cut in the process so we cannot be certain that it as safe as, say, a tetanus jab, I'll hold back a while a huge population-wide experiment is carried out.
The former are just nuts, the latter may have a point, thalidomide was safe back in the day...
I would have no further contact with them.
Ohhhh you’re soooo edgy….
Swoon 😍
Literally the childish reply of the thread winner.
So you would rather be put at unneeded risk than lose a friend?
I put myself at worse risk and wouldn’t see a mate not getting vaccinated as posing any real risk anyway.
So yes probably
I’d rather hang out with someone who has made a decision against taking a drug they are not happy with than hang out with some of the dramatic life sucking miseries on this thread.
And yet, here you are. Hanging out with us dramatic life-sucking miseries.
Makes you think.
a mate not getting vaccinated as posing any real risk anyway.
Significantly increased risk of getting it and passing it on
At some point foreign travel will open up. Odds on that it will be for fully vaccinated individuals only or there's a two week isolation period when you arrive at your destination and when you get home.
When I was on my way to get my first jab, the AZ blood clot story was just breaking, even then the risks were vanishingly small even if you assumed that the vaccine was the cause of ALL those individuals getting blood clots, something like 40 individuals out of 20 million doses. That's 1 in 500,000. Compare that with the chance of me dying, I'm 62, before my next birthday - 1 in 100. The two aren't even in the same ball park.
rushed through the trials and inevitably some corners will have been cut in the process
Have a listen to that podcast with the people who developed one of the vaccines. To be honest, I now have more sympathy with the “microchip” people than the “I’ve heard bad things about the vaccines that put me off, but the effort to find out more about them from reputable sources is too much”. The former are vulnerable people being conned, the later are just bad fellow citizens.
What do you do when your best mate is anti Vax?
Isn't the standard answer a Henry, Nilfisk or Shark? Avoid Dysons.
Isn’t the standard answer a Henry, Nilfisk or Shark? Avoid Dysons.
5 hours too slow
Literally the childish reply of the thread winner.
YAY! GO ME!
Two of my wife's friends are unvaccinated. One is concerned over the risks it may pose to her but wears a mask and follows government guidelines and the other is an anti-vax, anti mask, plandemic tin-foil hat wearing selfish moron. the former currently has CV-19, caught from her unvaccinated partner who picked it up at work. Again. If there was any justice in the world, it would be the nut-job who has a dose of the 'rona.
My brother refused the AZ vaccine after the clotting issue came to light but has instead been vaccinated with Moderna.
I'm not aware of any of my friends refusing to be vaccinated, even the one who voted for Brexit...
I have friends who are devoutly religious, who are brexiteer tories, who are anti bicycle. this is a whole ‘nother level of stupidity and danger.
So you’ve made a choice as to which of these apparently irrational beliefs you’re happy to let slide? A choice that’s presumably based on your experiences and opinions. Others might make a different judgement. See where I’m going with this?