[Closed] What do we think of T-Levels? Longevity and credibility?

They are very new, so anyone taking one now is essentially a guinea pig. DfE is putting a lot of weight behind them though, so they'll have a good chance of sticking - but its still a risk. Syllabuses (curicula?) are designed in partnership with industry, so the content should be decent.

There have been reports of a shortfall in the availability of the industry placements required to pass, so check with the college they have rock-solid plans for this.

They'll be around for a while. Restrictions on which schools and colleges can run them have been lifted. BTEC and other vocational qualifications at Level 3 are under review and by all accounts unlikely to continue.

The timeline over the next few years has a number of new T level subjects coming into play. The offer is nice and broad.

From the specs I have read they look good. The 45 day work placement (can be once per week or in blocks) will be the most difficult part for schools and colleges to organise.

My local Technical College (Darlington) delivers a good IT/Cyber security "course" so i assume others do it?

Real shortage of IT/Cyber skills.

My other half works for an awarding body who’s developing T Levels and has a lot of good things to say about them. Good blend of vocational as well as academic. As with anything, quality of delivery is key, just as you can get good and bad schools and good and bad employers (or indeed apprenticeship providers), do your homework on who’s delivering the T Level.

I can't see how the 45 day placements can possibly be delivered without some serious incentives for the employers. It's just totally unrealistic. Apart from that they seem like a good idea.

My son started a digital T-Level in September. He is very confident that he wants to go into a career in IT in one form or another. The other option would have been doing A-levels in probably maths, physics and computer science, but he/we felt the A-levels would have been less relevant to his future ambitions. We did quite a lot of research and also looked at university options post T-level, a few universities expect a maths A-level for computer courses, but most are happy with T-level qualifications.

So far he seems to be really enjoying the course and is very engaged with it. It helps that he enjoys all the topics on the course. We haven’t got as far as the vocational part of the course yet, so will have to wait and see how that plays out.

Makes a lot of sense, A for academic, T for technical, it's been a long time coming.

We're in the same position & went to a college open day the lead there did say that most employers are unaware of them except for those who they had on board for placements but due to running two courses next year students would have to find their own placements. Still a lot of classroom time involved. He did say that Industry is wanted a broader skillset and this is where T levels deliver.

I'm trying to steer my son to an apprenticeship, 4 days in work, one day at college.

As he has shown a glimmer of interest in IT/cyber. Industrial placement sounds good and they are purported to be the equivalent of 3 A levels. But with these being in their infancy, are they going to be a short lived thing, holding no weight in years to come?

To me the concept is sound, whether they are short-lived or not is unlikely to matter.

1. If he's looking for work in the near future then whilst employers might still need to learn about them they are current so its irrelevant.
2. If he's looking to go to college / uni now, or in the future they will know all about them and are used to things which come and go.
3. If its 10 years in the future and an employer is looking - then they probably don't really care about school quals, if they are really big they'll be used to seeing these, if they are not it will be no more confusing that seeing Scottish or Irish people with other quals.
4. If he's interested in cybersecurity stuff then a vaguely relevant T level must be better than A's in History, English and Philosophy ?

I can’t see how the 45 day placements can possibly be delivered without some serious incentives for the employers. It’s just totally unrealistic. Apart from that they seem like a good idea.

Possibly - but larger employers who want to hire school leavers could see it as a good way (far better than any exam grade) to see who's worth hiring. Just before covid we were interviewing for apprentices and it was a nightmare - expectations weren't very high, all we really wanted to know was: would they turn up reliably, do what they were asked, ask if they were stuck, show some initiative to solve/learn things for themselves. How do you work that out from a CV, a 1 hr max interview (that might be the first interview that person has ever done) and a seemingly glowing reference from the school?

Lots of T Level courses offered by the college my son went to.

45 day industry placement? Poor students, that'll be enough to put anyone off a life in IT 😛

I've no idea about T-Levels, but I am a former 'guinea pig' of the Education system.

Being Dyslexic I always struggled with exams, so when I scraped through my GCSE's despite being 'bright' it was suggested I take an Advanced GNVQ instead of A-Levels, because it was 90% course work and 10% exam. I can't remember the name of the course (it was nearly 30 years ago) but it was Business focused.

At the time they gave some concrete equivalencies with A-Levels, the course was worth 2 A-Levels and results were worth A-A, B-B, C-C or pretty much fail. At the time, if you wanted to go to Uni afterwards you still needed to do an A-Level as at the time it seemed you needed 3x A-Levels, I've no idea how different things are now.

No one in my cohort when onto Uni, again, it was a long time ago, I don't remember who wanted to, if any, but no one did, if I had to guess, as far as Universities were concerned, they weren't equivalent to anything.

When it came to getting a job, it was of limited use really, I had to explain at interview what it was, and why I didn't take A-Levels etc. I started at the bottom really, but then, most of my Grad mates did too. It was however actually useful in work, I gained knowledge and skills I still use now. When I was involved with the RBS Grad scheme as a mentor, most of them really didn't have much in the way of useable skills, a 1st in History being of limited use in the cut and thrust of Asset Finance. I only got into RBS in the first place because I gave a bit of a sob story at interview about my parents not wanting to support me and I never got the chance to go. Minimum requirements for the Commercial arm of most banks back then was a 2-1 degree, and it didn't matter if you were 21 and looking for a junior role, or 50 with decades of experience, it didn't matter what you studies either, which is crazy to me.

I really hope things have changed now, during my career, not having a degree has sometimes felt like being outside of a exclusive club, I've met lots of people even in Middle Age who will tell you what they "read" and where, and what their partners read, and their friends, and sad to say ESPECIALLY when I smile and tell them I'm not a Grad. I'm sure it's people like that who write recruitment policies excluding non-Grads, anything to protect their swindle and ego.

Even now, talking to my Kids Teachers, they seem absolutely resolute. GCSEs to A-Levels to Degree = intelligence, success and happiness, and anything else is less. Of course, as long as being a graduate is a pre-requisite of being a Teacher and it seems most have never done anything else, maybe they just don't know any different.

Anyway, I've dusted that chip off my shoulder now.

As above, I work in IT, in a semi-technical role, I'm having a miserable time at the moment, but that's nothing to do with my job per-se, or the industry, it's actually an exciting industry to work in, ever changing and evolving. A lot of the stereotypes are true, plenty of guys on the Tech side aren't the best communicators or have the best social skills.

Very few have degrees, I think out of all of us, 1 has and I quote "I spent 3 years smoking weed and learning stuff that was outdated years before I started".

There are loads of Industry qualifications that are taken far more seriously, but again you have to be careful, it's entirely possible to 'buy' qualifications, a grand or so for a 'course' that lasts a few hours at most and feeds you the answers and nothing else.

Most of the businesses who are looking to recruit trainees are more interested in 'soft skills', a good vocational course, and ideally some industry experience could be a better route into IT than a degree, but IMHO there will always be snobs that will try to close you out, and if Uni is the end-goal, then think carefully, I'd hope the likes of UCAS will take them seriously, but in my outdated experience, it didn't seem to be the case.

I'm having flashbacks to the last time something like this was tried with the 14-19 Diplomas. Just as we got out head around them and drafted the IT diploma the coalition government decided that trad GCSEs, exams and no coursework were the future and they scrapped the lot.

I wouldn't be surprised if industry was wary about getting involved having had their fingers burned before.

As someone who did Btec as part of an apprenticeship then I’m not sure btec’s ever got the recognition they were supposed to garner despite their content, so no reason to assume T levels will be any different. Rose by another name and all that. I had to negotiate big time to get the 2nd year entry to a degree course that my btec HND was supposed to be worth, with some universities it even willing to entertain receiving someone with such ‘inferior’ academic qualifications. But got there in the end with some perseverance and persistence…..qualities I learned from doing several industry placements for nothing just to get the real life experience, something that can’t be taught in any college or university, so don’t be too quick to brand apprenticeships as ‘Cheap labour’ or exploitation. Life experience is invaluable…don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. The experience is what you make of it.

My view is apprenticeship all the way, if he shows any sort of decent work ethic. I had a really well regarded apprenticeship and the expectation to hit a goal ( phase test every week) made a man of me and made me grow up instantly.
Only thing I would advise is stay away from any kind of niche engineering subject, like toolmaking or aeronautical, as , in my experience, what used to be a license to pick your job is now somewhat of a dead and redundant trade. If I had enough time left to make it worthwhile, I would retrain as a carpenter or blacksmith, that way I would enjoy whats left of my working life rather than endure it, which seems to be the prognosis for me.
Overall though, if anybody is thinking of a career in any kind of manual engineering subject is to get out of the UK, unless things change drastically soon. Countries like Canada are crying out for the skills which we treat so poorly in this country. Following two failed attempts to emigrate, both of which went tits up due to factors outside my control, I am now too old ,plus factors like grandchildren have shifted the focus. But overall, I would say my biggest regrets when I look back at my life will be not emigrating , followed by the career path I took.

Thank you for your thoughts on this…

I wasn’t intending to dismiss apprenticeships, indeed, I went through that process back in the mid/late 80s and it was a good grounding of studies and real work, including going to the stores for a long stand. I was lucky, had a great sponsoring company and they supported and paid me as I progressed through ONC, HNC and on to a degree and masters. Alas, the company is no more, 650 people gathered together one day and told, that’s it, we are closing. This was engineering, so I am a little reluctant to promote it too much to my lad. The comment about cheap labour was when I see adverts for a waitressing apprenticeship and the like. Surely that is just a casual job, but maybe the employer gets government support to dress it up as an apprenticeship.

T levels do leave me a bit nervous that two years of studies might be for nothing. But then again, life’s long, two years when you are fifteen isn’t the end of the world.

I’ve spoken again to him, seemingly, the best apprenticeships are released in February so at least these are on his radar.

But look at this one, he could walk to it from home!

https://www.findapprenticeship.service.gov.uk/apprenticeship/1000021671

I might apply myself actually, at long last learn how my old mini and MG metro was put together, aside from what was in a Haynes manual.

We use to teach Btec and moved onto UAL when Btec were bringing in exams and a much more restrictive curriculum. I don't have any experience with T levels but if they offer a more vocational education than Btec it will be a good thing.

It does depend on the student though. Students who want the freedom to think for themselves, with a little guidance from a tutor, will thrive on a vocational course.

@rockhopper70,
I absolutely agree with you, engineering , as it is, is something I actively steer young people away from these days. In my area, if you work in engineering, you are currently working in a plant which is threatened to close, and from there you will leave to get a new job in another plant which is threatened to close. Employers moan they cant get the skills , why would anybody volunteer for a lifetime of overtime bans, work to rule, sudden change of shift notices, pay arguments, etc, coupled with the constant threat of closure?
I would probably advise practically minded youngsters to follow a construction trade path, from what I have seen. The amount of young people in their mid 20s and late 20s,locally, with their own succesful companies is nice to see.
For the non-practically minded, im sorry I cannot advise anyone, the world seems to have moved on and left me behind in the age of hitting things with hammers.
Oh, and unless things have changed dramatically, the best apprenticeships used to be released around July, when that years school leavers had had their exam results and therefore knew which paths were open to them. The start of the apprenticeships coincided with the beginning of the College autumn term, unless you were lucky enough to get into somewhere who had their own training school, which is always the best apprenticeship to accept in my experience. Old sweats with 35+ years experience happy as Larry to be taken off shifts and pass a bit of knowledge onto the young 'uns. You cannot beat that level of mentorship.

Having been involved in the development of a number of engineering apprenticeship programmes and the new funding modern, something like a degree apprenticeship with a reputable employer is better than the higher education route - from someone with an honours and masters degrees. My concern about T-levels is how effective the DfE are at managing it - sclerotic decision-making and concerns about funding will turn a great idea, developed by employers into a poor shadow of the concept as Boris’ high-skilled agenda will be driven by quantity not quality, leaving lots of disenfranchised students. If you’re in an area with good employer support and opportunities then I’m sure they will make it work, my concern would be where there isn’t and 45-day placements probably involve counting boxes in a Sports Direct fulfilment centre (other shitty employers available)

Makes a lot of sense, A for academic, T for technical, it’s been a long time coming

First para after this is a rant skip ahead!

Except it's a false dichotomy that for some reason is still promoted. Good technical qualifications is a good thing but if they are still promoted as not being academic theñ those promoting have the wrong mindset and don't really understand and still promotes the idea that it's for "less clever kids" where as it should be prompted for people who want a technical job. Technical doesn't mean not academic, practical doesn't mean non academic. If you go down this route then all legal qualification should be considered technical, all medical, a lot of biological sciences. Non academic courses are things more like social care, hospitality, general management. All skilled but not academic and not technical.

Rant over!

The cynic in me says 45 days is pretty pointless and is nothing more than an extended interview just to make sure you can turn up for a month and a half but you will not learn anything, however if it's a good company then the job offer will be worth it.

As with apprenticeships the quality of the placement (or the job that's offered after) will really make or break it. Company that does loads of things or goes deep into odd technologies / techniques, good lot of the others will be bad. I think this is reflected by people I speak to who did apprenticeships at large companies / government agencies or very specialist companies do well.

Lastly on technology, the vast majority of your learning will have to be self lead and he needs to realise this. Getting a qualification to get you pointing in the right direction is important and useful but if you want to get any half decent job you ne d to be learning / playing on your own. With the internet and the cheap price of tech now (you can pick up second hand pcs for nothing, Rasoi etc can be set up as security boxes just as much as for turning lights on and off etc) it's never been easier. This is the good part about IT but also the bad part (as someone who started out like this and now is burnt out / board). If he is not that type to do loads of home projects self learn to be honest I wouldn't bother.

Irrespective of how he gets Junior gets there, decent apprenticeships do exist.

Here’s ours:

https://www.capgemini.com/gb-en/careers/your-career-path/apprenticeships/

Candidates get paid very well, work properly on real projects from day one - not just making the tea, along with the ability for UK wide travel, coming out with a [b]fully paid degree[/b] and a guaranteed job.

I can’t recommend them enough, and the kids on the programme are brilliant, I love having them on my projects.

Lastly on technology, the vast majority of your learning will have to be self lead and he needs to realise this. Getting a qualification to get you pointing in the right direction is important and useful but if you want to get any half decent job you ne d to be learning / playing on your own. With the internet and the cheap price of tech now (you can pick up second hand pcs for nothing, Rasoi etc can be set up as security boxes just as much as for turning lights on and off etc) it’s never been easier. This is the good part about IT but also the bad part (as someone who started out like this and now is burnt out / board). If he is not that type to do loads of home projects self learn to be honest I wouldn’t bother.

Yep, tbh every days a school day in IT, but people do seem to also like becoming managers which this doesn’t seem to apply to.