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Ok, so it is The Sun, but this absolutely absurd for a civilised, developed nation. The Police have been very tolerant, why through petrol bombs at them? I just don’t get it.
I guess a water canon would infringe the human rights of the people throughing petrol bombs and fireworks at the Police.
Plenty more videos on YouTube. Great respect to the Police who were dealing with that situation last night.
Guy I know was in the fire brigade got a no biscuits meeting for temporarily losing control of his hose when coming under similar exuberance from local teens. A couple of which may have got damp.
👍
Sorry,I should have have also said " I blame Thatcher's government and what it set in motion ".
Certainly looks like a planned trap. Why water canons werent used is beyond me.
Guy I know was in the fire brigade got a no biscuits meeting for temporarily losing control of his hose when coming under similar exuberance from local teens. A couple of which may have got damp.
been there. Wee eck's maw on the phone to complain before we got back to stn that her wee darling came home wet and his designer TK max clobber and gymies were ruined 😂
Why water canons werent used is beyond me.
We do not have them in the UK. Dangerous weapons and do not fit with UK policing or law. Johnson bought some for london - never used as the police didn't want them IIRC and they are incompatible with UK law ( from memory)
Ok, so it is The Sun, but this absolutely absurd for a civilised, developed nation.
Civilised and developed? Do you get out much?
It's absurd that fireworks are available to the public.
Civilised and developed?
In Niddrie?
Didn't happen south of the border, guessing the SNP being so lenient to neds has led to this.
this absolutely absurd for a civilised, developed nation.<br /><br />
you’ve not been to Niddrie have you? It is absurd that pockets of deprivation and despair like Niddrie exist in one of the most affluent cities in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Niddrie is a shit hole because it’s ignored by local and national politicians; it’s ignored by them because it’s a shithole. Every city and council area in Scotland has a similar area. It doesn’t condone the behaviour, but water cannons won’t stop it - they wanted a battle, water cannon being deployed (even if not actually used) would be a “win” for the ring leaders. Sorting it, is a 20+ year challenge with many set backs along the way, and needs input from every area of government: housing, education, health, drugs, justice, economy, etc., not a job for the senior cop who is in charge on the night - although they probably deserve some credit for not escalating the situation.
Civil unrest isn't a new thing though is it?
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/london-riot-history/
I think that there is more noticeable crime whenever there is an economic downturn. We're just on the precipice right now if the middle east turns off the oil to western countries that back isreal. Add this on top of the war Ukraine and we could see it only getting worse.
Nah, more police is the answer to higher crime rates. So is arming the police, more police powers and longer prison terms*
*Sarcasm alert.
NIddrie is actually a lot better than it used to be in reality with the blocks of flats being demolished and replaced with smaller scale social housing. drug problem there is also much reduced so to say its been ignored is wrong. too little too late perhaps but its a hugely better place than 30 years ago. Huge investment in the area.
Civil unrest isn’t a new thing though is it?
I'm wrestling with motivations and reasons for civil unrest.
I would defend the right to civil disobedience and protest.
But unrest just seems so wasteful - those who need to hear are not the ones or community you are harming.
And civil unrest because the youngsters are basically bored and unhappy, well that seems to really harm your own community.
Lowlife will be lowlife.
Why water canons werent used is beyond me.
They’d have to buy some first.
Nothing new. A good documentary on BBC I-player just now. Street Gangs. Narrated by a former Airdrie gang member who got out. Got to univ. Got a book published goes back to see what current gang culture was like. Pretty much the way it always was is the answer.
As he says there were three ways out. Jail, death, or redemption. After a few friends died of overdoses - one in front of him he saw the light.
For the teachers here - he gives a lot of credit to his old English teacher who helped him get an A Higher English and get to university. There is a good scene where he meets his former head teacher.
It's been a regular bonfire night tradition in Halifax and Bradford for years. Firecrews are called out, then stoned and have fireworks thrown at them. Every year.
If you're going to go down, may as well have fun doing it?
We do not have them in the UK. Dangerous weapons and do not fit with UK policing or law. Johnson bought some for london – never used as the police didn’t want them IIRC and they are incompatible with UK law ( from memory)
Are they not criminalising themselves
No from their point of view it's inevitable
Just down the road from me, and until recently I worked in the area. Saw 4 police vans on their way last night but as TJ says it's changed a lot, and last night was actually an improvement on previous years in that other areas (Moredun, Pilton) don't seem to have had the same level of aggro, or perhaps it's just not made the news.
What about the petrol bombs?
Ask Cougar. He'll have the 'recipe' in his 'cookbook'
What is there to stop anyone from Niddrie from applying for a job? It does look very deprived, but why does that mean it is acceptable to through petrol bombs ?
Oh dear. where do you start with that. Lots of data on cycles of deprivation around if you actually want to know.
The laws in the UK are the problem.
*throw*
Sorry but "through" is worse than nails on a blackboard
Did someone mention deprived parts of Edinburgh and Thatcher?
Craigmillar: Down but not out (25 mins)
I walked from town to Portobello last year and I was genuinely shocked at how beaten up some parts of Restalrig and Craigentinny were.
What is there to stop anyone from Niddrie from applying for a job?
That wasn't you on Twitter the other day suggesting that the way to end homeless people sleeping on the street was for them to get jobs was it?
He’ll have the ‘recipe’ in his ‘cookbook’<br /><br />
I don’t ‘cook’, but even I know how to make an effective petrol bomb! Narrow necked bottles, boxes of tampons and a supply of your inflammable liquid of choice. Simples.
What is there to stop anyone from Niddrie from applying for a job?
Ah ha, the classic trap. Unemployment in Niddrie is high but it’s not 100%. There’s a lot of factors that your tiny sentence ignores. Let’s assume two equally competent candidates apply for the job, one of from Niddrie and one of from Balerno. Who gets the job? Society has bias too - prejudice at screening, prejudice on accent at interview, how well dressed/groomed etc. If they did get the job - can they get there (at the relevant times)? Does it take them longer or cost them more to get to main places of employment?
now that assumes that they would be qualified for the job - but years of deprivation mean equally able young people are less likely to achieve the same qualification when they live in areas of high deprivation. In affluent communities you might not have to apply for the job - connections can get you a rung on the ladder, now you have “experience” so on paper are more qualified than the Niddrie candidate. Their parents suffered the same barriers so the chances are they didn’t remain in education for long and have lower aspirations for you than the “luckier” kid <10 miles away.
If you both get stopped by the police and found to have £20 worth of cannabis on you - do you both get the same outcome, or do you now have a criminal conviction to make getting a job harder. If you grow up in a society where aspiration are low, will your ambitions be high? If everyone you know seems to break the law at least some of the time, why would you accept societal norms.
I could write essays about why it’s a cyclical phenomenon where the exceptions are the people who escape, usually by leaving, whilst everyone else is in a spiral to the bottom.
And no matter how hard you try, and how close you come to breaking the barriers in your way, people far luckier than you who believe their success in life comes not by quirks of birth but because somehow they are better will ask stupid ****ing questions like:
It does look very deprived, but why does that mean it is acceptable to through petrol bombs ?
When nobody suggested it was!
Your opening post seemed to suggest you were at least vaguely curious about how or why these sort of situations arise. As the thread developed you seem less keen on being enlightened and more interested in castigating those who have lost hope.
now the next stupid question is - if it’s that bad why don’t you just move? If you have a council tenancy it’s incredibly hard to do that. If you have a private tenancy you will pay massively more for a nicer area so unless you have already broken the cycle you can’t. even home owners get trapped as property prices in poverty estates inevitably don’t rise as much as aspirational ones.
TJ is right, all across Scotland there has been investment in the poorest areas; but all flavours of government face these sort of question to justify that spending from lucky people from lucky areas who have never faced the challenges these folk face and think their tax money should not be disproportionately diverted to areas where people aren’t trying to improve their own lives.
orangemad
Full Member
What is there to stop anyone from Niddrie from applying for a job?
Laziness? Is that the answer?
For someone who publicly claims to be a Christian you seem to have a rather callous, and dare I say it, unchristian attitude.
I know absolutely nothing about Niddrie but what I read concerning the incident was that the police were claiming about 50 individuals were involved. I am not sure how you can demonize a whole community on the basis of the actions of about 50 individuals.
And if the police don't have a water cannon on permanent standby in Niddrie waiting to quickly deal with 50 or so individuals it probably has to do with the fact it is not considered appropriate and useful, rather than anything to do with human rights, as you seem to believe.
For someone who publicly claims to be a Christian you seem to have a rather callous, and dare I say it, unchristian attitude.
**** it. If we are making sweeping generalisations and lazy intolerant attitudes.
Being hypocritic knocks DBAD into second place for rule 1 in Christianity.
I’m wrestling with motivations and reasons for civil unrest.
I would defend the right to civil disobedience and protest.
But unrest just seems so wasteful – those who need to hear are not the ones or community you are harming.
And civil unrest because the youngsters are basically bored and unhappy, well that seems to really harm your own community.
Why can't all these kids just do something constructive instead.
If they would just go out an buy an entry level mountain bike for £2K they could have hours of fun instead of entertaining themselves in this anti-social way.
What is odd to my way of thinking is why we have the national news, especially the BBC, reporting multiple quite small incidents across Scottish cities when there was zero reporting across England.
Zero. Really?
Nope, doesn't feel right and I don't believe it. Reporting bias seems more likely, another example of anti Scottish government from the national broadcaster, yet again.
Why would somebody living in a deprived comunity have a spare 2k for a mountain bike?
I read Bruce Wees post as Sarcasm!
But unrest just seems so wasteful – those who need to hear are not the ones or community you are harming.
They have no way to get the people who need to hear to even be bothered to send a lackey to listen.
In fact, i'd not be surprised if anyone from that community genuinely got within conversational earshot (rather than shouting abuse from a distance) of those in power, they'd likely be leaving in a police van.
Excepting things like photoshoots in the run up to an election.
This is pretty much the only way they have to voice their displeasure. And if stuff gets broken, the council might eventually repair/replace it. If they don't it'll just get left until it's useless. So a small benefit.
Why would somebody living in a deprived comunity have a spare 2k for a mountain bike?
Doesn't everyone have that kind of money to spare? I mean, how do people get by?
Wait a minute! I always thought people only rode hardtails because they were an aesthetic choice. Do you mean some people ride them because they can't afford rear suspension!?
If they would just go out an buy an entry level mountain bike for £2K they could have hours of fun instead of entertaining themselves in this anti-social way
A lot of them do have quite decent mountain bikes. They just didn’t pay for them.
Reporting bias seems more likely, another example of anti Scottish government from the national broadcaster, yet again.
The idea that the BBC have refused to report similar incidents of the police being attacked in England because they are only interested in negative stories which involve Scotland is a new conspiracy theory to me.
And also highly unlikely to be true imo.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-67320768
The difference being that the English regional stories don't make the National news Ernie.
Whereas the Scottish ones were highlighted in every bulletin all day on R2, R6 & BBC National news. Front page on BBC News website.
Get it..?
why through petrol bombs at them? I just don’t get it.
The Police don't deserve it, but these folks aren't rioting because; cops, the cops just happen to be there.
When the BBC doesn’t report on positive events in Scotland it’s anti-Scottish bias. But of course when they do report on negative events in Scotland it’s anti-Scottish bias.
FTFY
If you got all your Scottish news from the BBC you would have a very different view of Scotland compared to getting your news from a range of sources.
It would almost be like only getting your news from The Scotsman.
Another way of looking at it is why are the police in Niddrie not following the principle of policing by consent?
Manners and politeness cost nowt and go a considerable way to reducing tension between those that police and those that have nothing left to lose. (Yes it is difficult if someone is being rude but that is the police officers job, to diffuse any tension and maintain the King's Peace).
Whereas the Scottish ones were highlighted in every bulletin all day on R2, R6 & BBC National news. Front page on BBC News website.
Get it..?
Not really. I get very little news about Scotland, unless something unexpected has happened. Such as the police being petrol bombed by about 50 individuals.
You probably heard about the 15 year old girl stabbed to death in Croydon on her way to school in by a 17 year old school boy last month.
That was covered by the BBC, even though stabbings aren't unusual elsewhere.
I'm not racist or anything but when are moderate Scottish community leaders going to condemn the violence? There must be some good ones who want speak out about what's happening with the glamorisation of knife crime among their youth, but there seems to be a code of silence in their community. Areas like Niddrie are no go zones for the police
another example of anti Scottish government from the national broadcaster, yet again.
We want to see Scotland more on the national news! But only the stuff that makes us look good!
I actually heard that people with Islington accents were handing the kids fireworks and £20 notes to start trouble. It's a plot to make the SNP look bad.
I think that was sarcasm.
I don't know, it's so difficult to tell with some posters.
Just in case it wasn't,
There must be some good ones who want speak out about what’s happening with the glamorisation of knife crime among their youth, but there seems to be a code of silence in their community.
In the late 90s to late 00s in Glasgow I knew at least half a dozen people who had been either stabbed or chibbed. It seems like, if it's not a thing of the past, it's nothing like as bad as it once was.
I’m wrestling with motivations and reasons for civil unrest.
Does there have to be a specific motivation? In areas which have been neglected and forgotten and people's life opportunities and experiences are little more than grim survival with no hope of improvement sometimes just raging against whoever is closest to hand is the only available option. In this case (and most others) it's the police, in others it's the council, or even other emergency services. Having a riot is the easiest way to ensure the politicians take notice and do something. If you ask me they deserve some credit for specifically targeting the cops rather than just going on a random arson spree around the community.
Police really getting into the spirit of the new anti-protest laws.
https://twitter.com/JustStop_Oil/status/1721606822992175171
I’m not racist or anything but when are moderate Scottish community leaders going to condemn the violence?
Has anyone ever started a sensible sentence that way? what on Earth are you talking about? Who are these community leaders? What makes you convinced that they have been silent on the topic?
There must be some good ones who want speak out about what’s happening with the glamorisation of knife crime among their youth, but there seems to be a code of silence in their community.
this wasn’t about knife crime. Knife crime in Niddrie is far better than in many parts of the U.K. This was fireworks and petrol bombs, because it’s the time of year when “we” celebrate the failure of catholics overthrowing the Parliament by burning effigies and launching explosives.
Areas like Niddrie are no go zones for the police
nonsense there’s a police station about 1km from where the “trouble” was and officers from that station will regularly pass through niddrie on the way to calls in Niddrie and elsewhere. Community policing across Scotland has taken a hit because of budget constraints, but there are not no go zones for cops anywhere in Scotland.
Another way of looking at it is why are the police in Niddrie not following the principle of policing by consent?
what makes you think they weren’t?
Manners and politeness cost nowt and go a considerable way to reducing tension between those that police and those that have nothing left to lose.
I’m struggling to understand where getting fireworks and petrol bombs thrown at you falls on the politeness and tension spectrum! The footage I saw seemed to show police showing significant restraint in those circumstances.
(Yes it is difficult if someone is being rude but that is the police officers job, to diffuse any tension and maintain the King’s Peace).
not sure that phrase is actually used in police Scotland but how would you suggest Scotlands finest should achieve their similar objective of maintaining order, protecting lives and property, and preventing crime when faced with a group of youths armed with, and anti socially discharging fireworks?
Lol
Change Scots to Muslims. I can see the point he's making.
how would you suggest Scotlands finest should achieve their similar objective of maintaining order, protecting lives and property, and preventing crime when faced with a group of youths armed with, and anti socially discharging fireworks?
Well, to misquote from experience elsewhere, history didn't start on November 5. In my life I have had few interactions with the police, but they have been uniformly negative. They centered around a cyclist being hit by a vehicle, so you can imagine the general picture. If that sort of thing had happened day after day I can imagine I might be tempted to lob some bangers their way given the chance.
I can imagine I might be tempted to lob some bangers their way given the chance.
Really? So you'd throw pyrotechnics at a person who knows nothing about your issue and potentially had nothing to do with it but just happens to do the same job? How would you feel if they got injured had to pull out of the line and your house took a firework through the window and went up in flames? Who's fault?
I have had a few interactions with police in Edinburgh and used to work alongside them. the politeness, professionalism and restraint when dealing with bams is exemplary. Of course I am a nicely spoken white man but even so
How would you feel if they got injured had to pull out of the line and your house took a firework through the window and went up in flames? Who’s fault?
Mine, but that’s not really the point.
Personally I have been roughly manhandled by police with the intent to intimidate me, when I was only 14 it was mistaken identity but...it worked. I became scared and distrustful of police
Later on I ran a yh and was regularly in contact with police to call out the rescue team. The police were endlessly professional, friendly and thorough.
There's good and bad just like the rest of us, though the bad need to be identified and kicked out
OK highlandman - posh speaking. Received pronunciation and all that 🙂
What do kids who are born into broken homes and poverty on sink estates do to deserve this?
not sure that phrase is actually used in police Scotland but how would you suggest Scotlands finest should achieve their similar objective of maintaining order, protecting lives and property, and preventing crime when faced with a group of youths armed with, and anti socially discharging fireworks?
I said rude, not aggressive. There is a general disrespect shown to those considered lower class to the officer handling the interaction. Having that demonstrated to you day after day would engender a lack of respect and trust in the police service.
What is there to stop anyone from Niddrie from applying for a job?
What is the unemployment rate in Niddrie?
If you work for 37.5 hours at minimum wage, it gets you about £400 a week. How much is a 1 bed flat pcm in Niddrie? If you have a kid, how much is a 2 bed flat + babysitting + school breakfast clubs in Niddrie? What's the point of telling people in Niddrie to get a ****ing job if they can't even earn enough to support themselves working full time?
Mine, but that’s not really the point.
Not sure what the point is. Is it that these youths have mainly negative interactions with authority therefore this type of attack is justifiable.
Or is it you had a negative interaction and so felt you might feel justified in such an attack of the opportunity arose?
a no biscuits meeting
brilliant. love this term, ive not heard it before
onehundrethidiot
I think the point is in places like this the police are seen as the enemy not an ally / friend. this does not justify it but does perhaps explain it.
In our cosy middleclass world our interactions with the police are mostly positive. In their world the interactions are mostly negative
someone mentioned above attitudes towards cannabis and being busted. the middle class kid and the working class kid will get the same treatment if busted but the chances of being busted are much greater if you are from Niddrie than from balerno.
Is it that these youths have mainly negative interactions with authority therefore this type of attack is justifiable.
Understandable rather than justifiable.
I said rude, not aggressive. There is a general disrespect shown to those considered lower class to the officer handling the interaction. Having that demonstrated to you day after day would engender a lack of respect and trust in the police service.
I don't think you understand the reported timeline of events! Your general statement may be true about how the police and local people interact most days of the year, and that long term may not help the case when the police come to tell some NEDs to stop throwing fireworks around. But your earlier post said they should police with consent. Thats an easy phrase to throw around whenever the police seem to end up in conflict with the population. But they werent in conflict with the majority of people in Niddrie - they were there because those people called to say NEDs were being NEDs. Policing with consent does not mean never enforcing the law.