[Closed] What defines a 'Supercar'

IMO you don't draw the line based on performance at all, that'll always be changing. You can dismiss the M3 GTS out of hand because it's based on a coupe. A GT3, awesome as it is, is (just) a track focused 911 regardless of how fast it is.

This is the problem with trying to define something that is arbitrary. It just becomes totally pointless.

The vast majority of my customers back then bought a 430, or a Gallardo or 911 GT2/3/RS or whatnot, spent 6 months not sleeping at night worrying about it and "got out of it" - they'd lose £20k - £40k in the process and in return got to spend the rest of their life telling people about the time they had a Ferrari.

The ones who kept them and changed them for another one a few years later fell into 2 groups, the ones who kept them in their garage and looked at them and did 2000 miles a year and the ones who spent the summer weekends cruising around at 20mph desperately trying to look nonchalant as they looked for people looking at them.

I think your view might be slightly skewed from working in finance and perhaps by how you would like to perceive owners of expensive cars. I don't have any finance on my cars and don't mind driving them at all. Certainly haven't lost any sleep over a car. Friends who have much more expensive cars than I don't worry about them either. But again they don't need finance to buy them. If you go to a typical track day, you'll see plenty of exotic machinery being thrashed around by people who don't fall into any of your stereotypical groups above.

[i]The Lexus IFA is the exception that proves the rule.[/i]

no, it isn't, it fails the "will it start?" rule for a kick off.

No Nissan, Ford, Lexus, Honda car can ever be a supercar. (no mainstream manufacturer, in other words)

What would you class the Ford GT40 as then? Or the apparently-imminent Honda NSX? The Lexus has been covered, and that most definitely is a supercar by any definition of the word.

Would far rather have THIS than a Ferrari or any other Supercar, Ferrari performance with room for 2-3 bikes in the back. In fact I'd rather have one of these over almost any other car. Absolute bargain too, and £14k buys you a good one.

Very predictable but hardly the same driving experience. Apart from the straight-line grunt, they're actually pretty dull to drive compared to even modest sportscars.

moshimonster

This is the problem with trying to define something that is arbitrary. It just becomes totally pointless.

[url= https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=mey&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&biw=1280&bih=640&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=internet+argument&oq=internet+argument&gs_l=img.3...0.0.2.186754.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..58.img..0.0.0.b2_yZZ-_ltM&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.80185997,d.d2s&dpr=1&ech=1&psi=zmBzVI7MJ4rxapXXgpAH.1416847567730.5&ei=_2BzVLmrOY7Vas_vgaAD&emsg=NCSR&noj=1 ]That's just like, your opinion man.[/url]

Riding mate of mine has one, shat it's gearbox 2 months after her bought it and cost him 3 grand to fix - perhaps they're supercars after all

Sounds unlucky. Better than loosing 3-4 grand in depreciation during the first year of ownership on say a new Mondeo or Passat though.

Apart from the straight-line grunt, they're actually pretty dull to drive compared to even modest sportscars.

Oh I don't know, have driven one and it's docile when you're not in the mood and a raging animal when you are. Does understeer a little but nothing that can't be easily sorted with a few suspension tweaks. Appreciate not quite as lively as a TVR or other RWD stuff, but it's unlikely to send you heading for the undergrowth at the merest hint of rain. You couldn't use most super cars every day now could you?

A friend of mine owned a TVR Chimera and a Mini Cooper S. The TVR was his dream car, but which did he enjoy driving most - yep, the Cooper S as the performance was far more useable day to day.

Neither, the GT40 is too old. the Honda NSX too easy to drive, and fails the "mainstream" and the "will it start" rules.

No Japanese car will ever really be a supercar, as fundamentally they don't understand the rules.

Supercars have to be mental. you can't drive them sensibly, you can't see out of them, they don't start, and they have to be uncomfortable, they have to be ridiculously overpriced and impractical. If you could drive it in the wet, it isn't a supercar.

no, it isn't, it fails the "will it start?" rule for a kick off.

All modern supercars fail that rule.

The Flying Ox - Member

No Nissan, Ford, Lexus, Honda car can ever be a supercar. (no mainstream manufacturer, in other words)

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None of those are supercars.

All fail the mainstream manufacturer* rule

* especially Datsun

next

[i]All modern supercars fail that rule.[/i]

some Lambos will cook you alive if you don't get out of them quick enough....

and they don't, with dull regularity

The merc looks like a kitcar, is there mr2 chassis under there? 😀

nickc - Member

None of those are supercars.

All fail the mainstream manufacturer* rule

* especially Datsun

Lamborhini and Buggati owned by Volkswagen. Ferrari owned by Fiat. Even the ultimate supercar makers technically don't conform to any of Nickc's criteria.

None of those are supercars.

All fail the mainstream manufacturer* rule

* especially Datsun

next

Total garbage.

If Honda produced this in road going trim, it would have every right to be termed a supercar.

[img] [/img]

Your opinion is wrong, but don't let it worry you, if you think a Datsun/Nissan is supercar material, you don't get it.

It's a racing car made by Honda. Fails the "will it start" and "mainstream" rule

I don't make the rules, that's just how it is.

the GT40 is too old

It ceased production in 2006, unless you want to be a picky so-and-so and claim that, [i]technically[/i], that was a Ford GT.

So if that's too old, so is the F40. And at this point your criteria falls flat on its face, trousers round ankles revealing frilly knickers, right into a freshly laid cow pat. Mouth open.

mainstream manufacturer

Lamborghini = Audi = VW = Bugatti

I'm not sure this holds up.

I kind of agree about the R8, but the Bugatti is a supercar - no doubt in my mind....

F40 is too old. Not in production now, not a supercar.

Supercars are the future, not the past.

If [s]Honda[/s] Mercedes produced this in road going trim, it would have every right to be termed a super car.

[img] [/img]

So racing cars don't count.

Supercars are the future, not the past.

..............

Mercedes produced this in road going trim, it would have every right to be termed a super car.

Fairly hard to produce one of those in road trim, wouldn't be that hard for Honda to do it for their racing car. Besides, the point was to highlight that mainstream manufacturers can produce supercars.

nickc - Troll
F40 is too old. Not in production now, not a supercar.

Supercars are the future, not the past.

Why didn't you just say you were trolling and we could've ignored you sooner?

I think you could define a supercar as simply:

2 seats (Maclaren F1 excepted).
Engine to the middle or rear of car.
Very expensive.
Very fast.
Radical looking.
Low, wide, impractical, and noisy.
Use of advanced and/or motor race technology.

Judging by this criteria, the Audi R8, Honda NSX, Ford GT40 are all supercars. The Ferrari 550, Jaguar XK8, Aston Martin DB9 etc are classed as GT cars.

For anyone saying that Supercars can't be made by mainstream manufacturers let me just say that Ferrari is owned and controlled by Fiat, and Lamborghini and Bugatti are owned by the VAG group. Honda also has a fantastic pedigree in motorsport and F1, as does Ford, as does Audi.

I'm not trolling, just 'cause you haven't got the leap of imagination it takes to look beyond fast cars into true SUPER car territory isn't my fault, and F1 cars are just daft.

Performance alone isn't the defining factor, neither is simply price. Super cars are gold painted bejewelled totems of infantile playground oneupmanship, they are motoring penis extension of individualism, if there's a Honda badge on it, it just simply won't do...If your johnny in the street can have a Honda....

Supercar = Teenage bedroom wall poster material.

Back in my youth, the Countach was king

This, I still look at Countach's and Testarossa's as supercars, cars of your childhood, that you had plastered on your bedroom wall, next to your favorite football team and rock band 😉

@rebel an Audi R8 isn't nearly expensive enough to be a supercar, I'd go for £150k minimum - probably more as the base.

Honda badge on it, it just simply won't do...If your johnny in the street can have a Honda....

So the fact that Honda have an F1 pedigree second to none doesn't count then? Or that a Honda NSX was in the supercar parade at Goodwood FOS a few years back? Or the fact that Lamborghini has very little motorsport pedigree and also makes tractors?

[url= http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/comingsoon/nsxconcept/ ]Looks like a Supercar to me[/url]

F40 is too old. Not in production now, not a supercar.

Can we resort to name calling yet? 🙄

Wouldn't class an NSX as a supercar, too sensible looking and a v6... don't think so.

Wouldn't class an NSX as a supercar, too sensible looking and a v6... don't think so.

Okay so all those motoring journalists, magazines, TV appearances, etc, etc who've been calling describing the NSX as a 'Supercar' for years are wrong then? Are Honda perhaps breaking advertising standards by describing it themselves as a Supercar?

"What's that car mate" says idiot in burberry cap (on backwards)

"Why, it's a Honda my fine young man" you reply

"Right, My mate Wayne's got a Honda, well nice it is and he can get Waynetta, and Chardonnay in the back of his"...much chuckling ensues....

NO mainstream manufacturers...thems the rules.

nickc

NO mainstream manufacturers...thems the rules.

Despite what Richard Hammond and Jeremy Clarkson may have told you, it's a debatable subject. There are no set rules. Only criteria which are up for debate. Non of yours hod water.

amesfts

and a v6... don't think so.

no?

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/\ Ok, fair point on the xj220, NA V6 then?

Did they?

I'm sure it's a great car but just not quick or bonkers enough for me to see it as such.

Sub 300 bhp, available with a slush box and looks that you wouldn't give a second glance unless you knew what pedigree it had hiding beneath it's dull exterior.

Not the XJ220, as it wasn't supposed to be a V6...

Although it does pass the "will it start?" rule I'll give you that. 😆

My Honda Jazz is a Super! and it's a Car 🙂

Plus it has Magic Seats so it has to be good.

If you compare what Honda spent developing the Jazz compared to what say Ferrari spent developing their latest mid-engined wonder wagon you could argue the Honda is far more super 😉

If you compare what Honda spent developing the Jazz compared to what say Ferrari spent developing their latest mid-engined wonder wagon you could argue the Honda is far more super

I knew it was Super 🙂

NO mainstream manufacturers...thems the rules.

Oh right, so looks like a supercar, performs like a supercar, sounds like a supercar, expensive as a supercar, more exclusive than lots of other supercars, but according to your rules, not a supercar 🙄

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Bat-shit crazy and dis-proves the "mid/rear engine" rule

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Built for the same reason as the R390 though, so a bit of a cheat. Here's another one:

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Finally!!! 😆

Rebel12. It's a lovely lovely car, don't get me wrong, it would look especially nice on my driveway.

so why isn't it a supercar? well, firstly it's not even original, it's an homage to a 1960's design, the same thing in essence that BMW have done with the mini. Secondly the design cues in it (it was a design exersize for Ford's "Edge" style) gave us the headlights for the Focus...It takes no dramatic leap forwards, indeed, it is solely designed to appeal to the mainstream. It has an engine borrowed from a production American car, and finally they made over 4000 of them, not exclusive enough, I'm afraid.

And its a Ford.

Veyron starts every time, is made by VW and drives like a golf. Does this mean its not a supercar?

I can't think of many cars that go over 210mph that aren't a supercar, so i'm going to go with that as the deciding factor

tpbiker, no it won't, no it isn't (Bugatti may be financed by the VAG group, but it certainly isn't made by them, and I would suspect the artisans at Bugatti would have an opinion about it), and I don't know many golf's that'll do over 200mph.

you decide.

Can I have Lancia Stratos as a supercar?
Ferrari engine, no view out the windows and by all accounts quite quick.

Alfa romeo SZ Zagato, try putting that into a category!

Fugly?

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Shouldn't a super car be highly unreliable and have a fuel tank the size of a thimble?

tpbiker, no it won't, no it isn't (Bugatti may be financed by the VAG group, but it certainly isn't made by them, and I would suspect the artisans at Bugatti would have an opinion about it), and I don't know many golf's that'll do over 200mph.

you decide.

Well if you are going to be pedantic then I'll concede it was designed and developed by the VW group, which is good enough for me. Likewise I realise its probably a bit more advanced and faster than a golf, but by all accounts its not especially tricky to drive, certainly not compared to other hyper cars out there. As for reliability, I know a guy who had one for a year and it never broke down once in the time he had it (granted I assume he rarely used it), so please point me to any reports of unreliability.

My point is the Veyron is (if you take running costs out the equation) proof that a supercar doesn't have to be unreliable and not particularly user friendly.

The Honda NSX is the reason that many supercars nowadays are actually usable. And in particular why Ferrari starting making good cars instead of the likes of the Testarossa and 348. The McLaren F1 was originally going to have a Honda engine but as they said no BMW stepped in. Possibly the best supercar engine ever?

The Veyron is 100% a VAG product. It has a Bugatti badge because VAG bought the long dead name (which had briefly come back to life in the '90s with the EB110).

So is NickC actually a real hamster?

I'm sure nickc will have something snippy to say about it, but when I want his opinion on what constitutes a supercar then I'll give it to him.
This is most definitely a supercar, pretty much faster than anything around a circuit including a Veyron, mad looks, small, non-volume manufacturer, scared the bejayzus out of Clarkson, laydeez an' gennelmen, I give you...

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And it's engine...

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And the specs...

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I thang you and goodnight. 😀

IMO Supercar has got to be 250k and up.

Hypercar -
P1
918
LaFerrari
Veyron?
Hyura? - possibly just the best Supercar
One:1

Supercar-

Aventador
F12
Agera R
M600???

Think that's pretty much all for what's onsale today. Everything else is just a sports car or super sports car.

Honestly - fire must come from it's arse

Driver response to "it catching fire"

tpbiker, no it won't, no it isn't (Bugatti may be financed by the VAG group, but it certainly isn't made by them, and I would suspect the artisans at Bugatti would have an opinion about it), and I don't know many golf's that'll do over 200mph.
you decide.

I work in a design role which you may consider 'artisan' our parent company is a house hold name. I'm quite happy to say what I design is manufactured by them since it's them on invoices and my department is a low profit high exposure showcase. Our product is made on a different site with different tooling by different people but it's still a product of the parent company. VAG bought the Bugatti name, for me it's a VAG product (this is not a criticism of VAG in anyway)

When proton had a share in lotus I would not consider lotus to be in anyway proton as it was a share in the company and as far as I know proton had no hand in developing/designing cars with a lotus badge on them (although lotus tweaked protons existed) this for me is the opposite of what VAG did with Bugatti.

The Veyron differes as Piech bought the Bugatti name and places historically associated with it and produced a vehicle using it. I can't see how the veyron is anything other than a VAG product.

Most subjective thread ever.
911 no
911 Turbo yes
R8 yes
RS6 V10 noooo
NSX V6 yes
Stratos/R390/Panoz/that Merc on the previous page no 'cause they're racing homologation specials
Atom? NO WAY!

I love seeing 15k bikes destroy million $ "supercars".

Definition of a supercar?
Naomi Campbell. You love the look, others are divided.
It is unreliable, liable to turn on you in a flash, totally bonkers and the running costs are insane.
Also the actual performance may not be as high as the looks suggest.
Even so, you'd still love to give it a go.

I love seeing 15k bikes destroy million $ "supercars".

I agree...but I also love this video. The rider must have looked in his mirror at 300km/h (can you even do that?) and thought "wtf????". The Audi driver is probably on STW (on his way to pootle round Cannock on an SC Bronson). Maybe not molgrips though. 🙂

The video could only be improved if he had a bike on the roof.

Well I spoke to a c7 Rs6 owner a wee while back and he said his was still pulling strong at 186mph. Clearly he was right 😯

King-ocelot

The Veyron differes as Piech bought the Bugatti name and places historically associated with it and produced a vehicle using it. I can't see how the veyron is anything other than a VAG product.

Not only that but it started out it's development process as a VW prototype, the first car to run a W12 engine, itself derived from two VR6 engines. The Veyron's W16 is a further evolution of this and was used in other VAG prototypes. So not only is it a VAG car, it's engine is derived from a Golf.

Most subjective thread ever.
911 no
911 Turbo yes
R8 yes
RS6 V10 noooo
NSX V6 yes
Stratos/R390/Panoz/that Merc on the previous page no 'cause they're racing homologation specials
Atom? NO WAY!

shifter - Member

Most subjective thread ever.
911 no
911 Turbo yes

Stratos/R390/Panoz/that Merc on the previous page no 'cause they're racing homologation specials

Homologation special, and one of the greatest supercars ever produced.

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The fact that you "could" buy a roadcar that was basically designed to win Le Man isn't a mark down against the car.

It's in the name, Omologato. Lovely car.

Would still rather have an F40 though.

What classification does this get?

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Affordable sports car

northernmatt - Member

It's in the name, Omologato.

You don't say 😀

The answer to pigface's question:

A proper car.

I would sooner have one of those than any "supercar".

And of course I'd fit a bike rack. 🙂

Caterhams and Aeriels are out due to the helmet messing up my hair before I pull up outside the posh hotel

911 no
911 Turbo yes
R8 yes

If that's the case then R8 V8 = no, R8 V10 = yes
At least be consistent.

Only Porsche is the 918

I think you've set your bar a bit too high there. Are we talking supercars (which to me are not THAT exclusive) or hypercars like the 918? Of the current Porsche range I would certainly class the Turbo and GT3 as supercars as would most people. The 918 is a hypercar in my book.

legend - Member
Caterhams and Aeriels are out due to the helmet messing up my hair before I pull up outside the posh hotel

When I was young the recommended performance mod was a shaved and polished head.

Now I don't have to worry about helmet hair... 🙂

Oh I don't know, have driven one and it's docile when you're not in the mood and a raging animal when you are. Does understeer a little but nothing that can't be easily sorted with a few suspension tweaks. Appreciate not quite as lively as a TVR or other RWD stuff, but it's unlikely to send you heading for the undergrowth at the merest hint of rain. You couldn't use most super cars every day now could you?

Did you not find the steering lifeless and the ride too harsh for UK roads? Most high powered Audis I've driven (including various versions of the RS6) have been pretty flawed in the ride/handling/steering department. BMW generally do a better job in this respect and Porsche certainly do.

For a big estate car it's very very good, but for me it doesn't quite cut it as a "proper" sports car as well. The ONLY thing that makes an RS6 exciting is the sheer power, everything else about it is bland. If I could only have 1 big car it would probably be a Cayenne Turbo, which again is not a sportscar but at least it rides nicely.

Anyway an RS6 is definitely NOT a true supercar regardless of having supercar power.

Re. Atom and Caterham/Westfield.

Good question performance wise yes (apart from top speeds)

My mates Westfield with Ford 2.0 duratec tuned engine and track set up used on trackdays was the most mental car I've been in and have been in a few ferraris, lambos etc

Only thing faster was a race tuned R1 an not by much exceleration wise.

As aside has anyone seen the V8 westfield, that the engine is made out of 2 haybusa engines with custom bottom end looked mental 2.6l high revving v8 that weighs very little :-0

This was all done on tracks/airfields I might add.

RS6/M5/E55/etc - Super Saloons

V8 engine http://www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php/engines/h1-v8-busa 😀

That is just superb- if it was any smaller the throttle bodies'd fall off 😆

LoCo - Member
V8 engine http://www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php/engines/h1-v8-busa br />

90kg and 1,000 bhp with turbo.

Mmmm, a V-16 version would be just dandy. 🙂

A mere £29000 for the engine and turbos. Chuck in an extra £4350 for engine management and gauges. Plus VAT obvs. I want to put one in a sheddy mini.

Supercars are designed to mess with G-forces, hypercars are designed to mess with G-Strings

"I would have them all shot."

"I would take them outside and execute them in front of their families.

"I mean how dare they go on strike when they have these gilt-edged pensions that are going to be guaranteed, while the rest of us have to work for a living."

Jeremy Clarkson. Estimated wealth £15-20 million.

Loco....dear god thats not far off the kind of power 1980s turbo formula one engines were making.

One of thise in an Ultima GTR or a radical sr8 would be hilarious.

NSX is definitely a supercar. It's rarity and exotic/interestingness of the powertrain that does it methinks. A VTEC V6 that revs to a bigillion rpm is definitely supercar material.

What about this?

[img] ?itok=X8Bcol5I[/img]

Needs to be able to do back-flips on demand - fact.

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