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Went to France in July, not many fat people there. What do they do differently?
Going to guess you were either:
-Paris for the Olympics
-Alps for biking
-Camping for family holiday
None of which is likely to give you a true demographic cut through of the French population
Went to France in July, not many fat people there. What do they do differently?
Less poverty.
Poverty is as old as civilisation but the obesity epidemic is a totally new phenomenon so there is obviously more to it than that.
Poverty is as old as civilisation but the obesity epidemic is a totally new phenomenon so there is obviously more to it than that.
Yes. The obesogenic environment in which we live which is a relatively modern phenomenon. But poverty is still the biggest risk factor for being overweight.
Poverty is still the biggest risk factor? Or poverty is now the biggest risk factor? If the latter, what has changed to make this the case?
(I am just thinking back to when I was at primary school. The only fat lad in my class - his dad owned a taxi firm. All the kids who were on free school meals were as thin as rakes. Co-incidentally - or not? - burgers/chips etc were never on the menu in the canteen.)
Going to guess you were either:
-Paris for the Olympics
-Alps for biking
-Camping for family holiday
None of which is likely to give you a true demographic cut through of the French population
Camping FTW! 🙂 We were off the campsite every day, still not many fat people about, in towns or countryside.
There is overwhelming evidence that education and other interventions that rely on personal agency are ineffective at tackling obesity at population level. There are, of course, some individuals who are exceptions to this, but obesity is not fundamentally a knowledge-deficit problem - it is, as @Kramer and others have made clear, an environmental problem that results from obesogenic physical, economic, social, and policy environments.
If the obesity epidemic was driven by a lack of willpower we would have seen reductions in willpower across populations commensurate with the growth of the epidemic; we have not. The rise in obesity over recent decades has predominantly been driven by changes in environments, largely driven by corporate actors, not by a collective loss of moral fibre or increase in stupidity.
Simplistic responses focused on small numbers of actions have failed and will continue to fail; obesity is a complex problem driven by multiple interacting factors. Reversing the trends in a way that no country on the planet has yet achieved requires engaging with this complexity, acknowledging the magnitude of the challenge, internalising the harmful externalities generated by many corporations within the food and physical activity systems, and accepting that the dominant approach of attempting individual level behaviour change is only able to make a tiny dent while also widening health inequalities. We need major structural responses to these and linked problems, such as those of air pollution and environmental degradation, if we are to have any chance of reversing this hugely harmful and growing epidemic.
So the answer to the original question of 'what can be done to encourage healthy living' is to stop trying to 'encourage' it and to start addressing the multiple problems with the environments that overwhelmingly shape our behaviours.
If the latter, what has changed to make this the case?
The obesogenic environment. Supermarkets, restaurants, cafes, coffee shops, takeaways, suburbia, lack of public transport etc.
But people are much more prone to this if they're poor.
If the obesity epidemic was driven by a lack of willpower we would have seen reductions in willpower across populations commensurate with the growth of the epidemic; we have not.
I don't believe that to be true at all, and the article you linked doesn't provide any evidence except saying "We believe it is implausible".
Surely it's obvious that we now have massively more choice in junk foods which is far easier to get than previous generations, and massively more numbers of distractions i.e. mobile phones, video games & now Netflix etc that keep some people stuck indoors rather than outside?
I don’t believe that to be true at all,
What don't you believe to be true? That obesity isn't down to a lack of willpower?
Fair point about the Rodgers et al paper @zilog6128. However, I've been working on obesity for almost 20 years but both Boyd Swinburn and Bill Dietz, who co-authored that paper, have been in this game for much longer. I'm not going to rely on an appeal to authority so by all means challenge their conclusion, but if you wish to argue that mass decreases in willpower are indeed a plausible explanation for the global obesity epidemic please provide evidence to back up your claim.
that it's not a factor at all in the new obesity epidemic, given that it is so much easier to get hold of junk food nowadays and there are so many diversions designed to keep us from leaving our homes, that previous generations didn't have!
I'm confused @zilog6128 - it seems that you agree with me about (1) the absurdity of lack of willpower as an explanation for obesity, and (2) the importance of the obesogenic environment. Apologies if I have missed something here...
Surely it’s obvious that we now have massively more choice in junk foods which is far easier to get than previous generations, and massively more numbers of distractions i.e. mobile phones, video games & now Netflix etc that keep some people stuck indoors rather than outside?
It's not more calories/less movement simple , it's different types of calorific intake made from edible non-food products that are designed in a way that often fool the body into thinking it hasn't had them - so you can eat more, and it's difficult to judge by looking at it how energy dense it is. I think food science is way way beyond where most folks think it is. Folks aren't moving any less than they used to, and expand the same amounts of calories as our ancestors did, our food environment has changed wildly though.
It is very easy now to eat 3 or 4 times your energy need without really consuming a whole lot. There are some coffee and drinks at all the coffee shops that are easily 800-1000 K/cal, and it's just a drink, add a sugary breakfast cereal, a takeout pizza for your tea and some booze...Robert's your father's brother.
it seems that you agree with me about (1) the absurdity of lack of willpower as an explanation for obesity, and (2) the importance of the obesogenic environment.
(1) I think that "willpower" is a huge factor - but not that collective willpower has somehow decreased for some reason, but that it is just harder to resist as there are so many more easy options these days.
(2) yes, this is one of the biggest factors I think - but I do think that it can be combatted, and education is a part of that.
that it’s not a factor at allin the new obesity epidemic
In the short (1 year) and medium (up to 5 years) term willpower does have an effect on weight, although it is small and not nearly as much as people think, however in the longer (greater than 5 years) term it has almost no effect at all.
@nickc - I agree about diets, food science, and food environments, but while I accept that there is disagreement about physical activity (PA) trends there is good evidence of declines in PA and increases in sedentary behaviour over recent decades
I ended up teaching a bit of 'food technology' in the late 90's and early 00's. It got pretty grim - literally 'designing' a pizza topping by coming up with a variety of ways to arrange pepperoni.
I'm out of date here and know its definitely got better already but the curriculum really needs a modern take on Home Economics. Yes, teaching cooking (but not lots of super sugary apple crumble) but also a huge emphasis on how to be a better consumer of food. The aspiration should not be to fill colleges with people wanting to go on catering courses and be on masterchef, but just to buy well and be better at cooking if their circumstances allow. Too many people have a huge black spot of unknown unknowns around food and nutrition.
Got to confess I'd then go further - as part of the reform I might well end up shipping out any food tech/ home economics teachers left and start again. I'm also changing the management of that the department and bringing it inside what is currently the PE department. Only a lot of them would be going too. Too much emphasis on team sports that an astonishingly small percentage of the population continue with into adulthood. A lot of the team sport stuff (which I liked as a kid as was good at so I'm not anti it for those reasons) get pushed into activity after school clubs if you want it. The main aim of the whole department would be to prepare kids for healthy living (food, rest, activity & moderation of the bad shizzle) as an adult, modelling it for them as children ready for adulthood.
I was in Brittany a couple of months ago. Plenty of fat people there.... But then it's not a wealthy area.
And their supermarkets are more full of crap than British ones! Getting hold of organic/locally grown produce was a nightmare. All the veg is bigger and greener and shinier, but healthier? Gimmee stunted, gnarled Sussex smallholding fare any day!
Oh, and food in French hospitals is just as crap there as it is here! The rumour of a Glass of wine with dinner is just that...
Sorry, but education and move more eat less have been comprehensively debunked as an effective intervention.
How about eat less of the wrong stuff?
If you are slim, good for you, it’s likely to be down to a combination of genetics and the fact that you live in a less obesogenic environment.
So does eating less of the wrong stuff put you in a less "obesogenic environment"?
Anecdote time. I'm sure you're right about genetics. My dad was skinny and I have been all my life. As an adult my weight has been pretty constant irrespective of what I eat, apart from a period where I was doing a lot of weight training for rock climbing and put on about a stone (muscle I hasten to add). After retiring my weight dropped quite quickly by about half a stone where it has remained. I put it down to fewer bought sandwiches, bacon butties, curries, cakes, pints whilst waiting for the train home from work. Is that moving to a less "obesogenic environment"?
I am aware of the poverty/junk food trap.
There is @Kramer, but one aspect of the failure to engage meaningfully with complexity that I referred to earlier is that much public health research persists in applying linear models of cause and effect to complex causal pathways strewn with feedback, adaptations, and non-linear interactions, and fails to take account of Rose's prevention paradox.
I won't bore you with details of my epistemological concerns about the evidence base, but even if increased activity really does have little effect on overall energy expenditure part of the response should be to tackle the environmental factors that promote adaptive homeostatic sedentary behaviours.
@suburbanreuban
Getting hold of organic/locally grown produce was a nightmare.
I feel your pain. 😉
@intheborders not really, it's come from my reading around the subject rather than one specific source, but feel free to google it.
One problem is that NHS weight loss advice is quite politically tainted (something must be done!) and IMV based on out of date research. Other doctors, including my own colleagues disagree with me. But I'm fairly confident that they're wrong.
The line I currently use is that exercise (of pretty much any type, but a variety is best and resistance becomes more important as we age) has many, many benefits, but weight loss is not one of them.
@slowoldman - it sounds like you're slim because you have a genetic propensity for it?
Part of the problem is that for years we've been asking slim people how they remain slim and for the vast majority of you the actual answer is because you were lucky in the genetic lottery.
After retiring my weight dropped quite quickly by about half a stone where it has remained. I put it down to fewer bought sandwiches, bacon butties, curries, cakes, pints whilst waiting for the train home from work. Is that moving to a less “obesogenic environment”?
Yes. It's much easier to resist temptation if it isn't wafting under your nose every day.
@lorax - point taken about prevention vs treatment, and AFAIK there is some evidence to suggest that increasing population activity can reduce incidences of obesity.
Thanks @Kramer.
The Foresight report from 2007 was called 'Tackling Obesities'. At the time I thought this use of the plural was a silly conceit, but I now think it's spot-on. Just as we use the word 'cancer' in the singular to refer to multiple different conditions, with different risk factors, natural histories, treatments, and outcomes, so obesity is in fact a multitude of different manifestations of a wide range of behavioural, genetic, physiological and other factors.
I was in Brittany a couple of months ago. Plenty of fat people there….
Same - not nearly as many where we were as you'd see in the UK.
What can be done to encourage healthy living?
Hide the biscuit barrel in my office.
After retiring my weight dropped quite quickly by about half a stone where it has remained. I put it down to fewer bought sandwiches, bacon butties, curries, cakes, pints whilst waiting for the train home from work. Is that moving to a less “obesogenic environment”?
Funny that, I’ve been pretty much housebound for 6 weeks due to knee Bursitis and I’m nearly 10kg lighter.
Ive used the rowing machine a bit with one leg but I’m nowhere near as active as normal.
There has been less pasta and potatoes in my diet and Ive drunk more water, beer intake is similar though.
Obviously no Meal deals or sneaky breakfasts like when I’m out on the road.
Even when you think you're eating healthily.......................
One of the most troubling consequences of the agrochemical revolution was the nutritive difference between the intensively grown fruit and vegetables of today and their equivalents 60 years ago. According to the government's own data, between 1940 and 1991 the typical British potato "lost" 47% of its copper and 45% of its iron. Carrots lost 75% of their magnesium, and broccoli 75% of its calcium. The pattern was repeated for vitamins. A study in Canada showed that between 1951 and 1999, potatoes lost all of their vitamin A and 57% of their vitamin C, while today's consumers would have to eat as many as eight oranges to obtain the same amount of vitamin A their grandparents did from a single fruit.
From https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2007/may/19/features.foodanddrink
'Treats', 'treat yourself', 'treat grab bag', all these words are everywhere. I've had a hard day at work, why not treat yourself, a cake, a biscuit, a takeaway etc. But the treats are huge, family sized, supposedly sharing packs. No child wants to share these.
As a child of the 60's and 70's most of us were thin/slim/not fat. The poorest family in the road were the thinnest (possibly undernourished, no car, so walked everywhere). We did have treats but only one. Maybe a child's sized milkyway, not the great big bars or bags we have now.
Also I'm a firm believer in sitting down for meals, at meal times, also not eating in between meals. not wandering around the streets eating snacks all day.
Clothes sizing is way out. A size 10 is really a size 14. physiologically making one think they are slimmer/thinner than they really are.
As children we walked to school. Did games, played out in the street/park/garden.
The slim family on our road, walk their children to school, let them play out (there's always an adult to keep watch), cook simple meals that have veg and salad on the plate . The fattest family on our road, drive their children everywhere, have takeaways almost every evening and they keep their children in, playing on their tablets/gagets, they are not short of money (unless they're in huge debt from all the stuff they buy).
As mentioned above it really is all about education. Being able to get cheaper fruit veg and salads would help, encouraging children to grow something edible and learning how to cook.
As children we walked to school. Did games, played out in the street/park/garden.
We played football on the - not yet opened - M1 southern extension at the end of the road, crossed the east coast mainline for shits and giggles and broke into the local factory's canteen of a weekend and stole their biscuits... It gave us a basic grounding in nutrition and running away from the police and hiding in bushes that a lot of the youth of today are sadly lacking. A lot of fat kids wouldn't be half so chubby if they were encouraged to commit minor crimes and other infractions and run for it.
Clothes sizing is way out. A size 10 is really a size 14. physiologically making one think they are slimmer/thinner than they really are.,
And have you seen the size of cars these days? No surprise that a lot of the automotive companies are owned by the same people as 'BIG FOOD', increasing the size of their products is yet another way of tricking people into thinking they are smaller than they actually are. Why else do you think Americans are both the fattest people on earth and drive the largest cars?
As mentioned above it really is all about education. Being able to get cheaper fruit veg and salads would help, encouraging children to grow something edible and learning how to cook.
I tend to think a lot of it is about people being time poor tbh. We need to give out more time on the NHS.
We played football on the – not yet opened – M1 southern extension at the end of the road, crossed the east coast mainline for shits and giggles and broke into the local factory’s canteen of a weekend and stole their biscuits… It gave us a basic grounding in nutrition and running away from the police and hiding in bushes that a lot of the youth of today are sadly lacking. A lot of fat kids wouldn’t be half so chubby if they were encouraged to commit minor crimes and other infractions and run for it.
😀
That made me laugh a lot and brought back a lot of memories of a misspent youth, thanks
The line I currently use is that exercise (of pretty much any type, but a variety is best and resistance becomes more important as we age) has many, many benefits, but weight loss is not one of them.
So I have a group of around say 50 people (probably more) who I know who are keen cyclists, mostly male tbh but also women. Not one is obese, some a bit bigger and many very skinny. Is this just luck on my part? They all hang out in cafe's all the time too which are obesogenic environments.....
Exercise clearly makes a difference the problem is most don't do anywhere near enough.
@tjagain - part of the answer is about the difference between evidence at individual and population level. Your big bike ride represents pretty unusual behaviour, so those kinds of effects don’t show up across a population where very few people are that active. There’s also evidence (such as that from John Speakman) that shows very limited changes in physical activity levels over time, and some studies have shown an activity homeostasis effect where high levels of activity in one part of people's lives are compensated for by sedentary behaviour at other times and/or adaptations in basal metabolic rate.
However, those studies mostly involve small numbers of people, and as I said above they tend to be based on a narrowly conceptualised model of cause and effect. So I agree with you - physical activity is not only hugely valuable in and of itself, it is also an important factor in energy balance and thus weight status.
@anagallis_arvensis I suspect there may be some selection bias in your population sample…
So only skinny people cycle? What about endless amounts of people who lose weight taking up cycling? The problem in reality is that government guidelines for exercise levels are too low.
Obviously calories in and calories out is far too simplistic but at the end of the day you cannot cheat physics no matter how hard you try.
Ta Lorax. Makes sense.
Not *only* skinny people @anagallis_argensis, but your sample is clearly not representative of the general population so there’s some sort of skew going on.
Really? On my big bike ride Iost 2 stone eating 4000ish calories per day
It’s complicated.
There comes a point where if you’re doing extreme amounts of exercise per day, then it becomes almost impossible to compensate for the increased amount of energy expenditure and people will lose weight. But this is in extreme circumstances such as endurance bike rides like yours or professional athletes for example.
However at lesser levels of activity, although you will see an initial increase in energy usage, over time 3 things seem to happen to mitigate against it-
- You learn to do the activity more efficiently and so use less energy when doing it.
- You tend to use less energy when not doing the activity, so your daily energy requirements tend to return back towards their long term norms.
- Your energy intake tends to increase to compensate for any extra energy used.
It isn’t that *only* skinny people cycle, but cycling does tend to attract a certain body type.
I’m interested to know where these endless amounts of fat people who’ve become thin through cycling are, because I’ve certainly not met them.
Ta Kramer - that makes sense
There was a well publicized one in the US where a morbidly obese man started cycling and got down to a healthy weight. Cycling rather than driving to work will make a differnce. I went from a 1 mile commute to a 7 mile commute and lost half a stone with no other changes
Anyway thats drifting from the point rather - the key thing IMO is to get the big food companies under control and ban high fructose corn syrup
It’s complicated
translation: it’s absolute bollocks which I cannot substantiate and I know it 🙂 Your third point completely refutes your initial assertion, for one thing.
I’m interested to know where these endless amounts of fat peoplee who’ve become thin through cycling are, because I’ve certainly not met them.
conformation bias then, rather than anything else. I’m one of those people you’ve never met. I also know multiple other people who’ve lost weight by getting into cycling later in life (I only started in my 30s).
My sister (49) and niece (22) are both obese, smoke/vape and love getting pissed. If I point the obvious path this leads to, they say "we won't live that long, so its no problem ". I've no idea how you can fix that kind of thinking, especially when our Dad/Grandad had very poor health in his last 20 years due to obesity.
I have pointed out that they will live a long time because the GP will give them a plethora of drugs to keep them limping along.
So yes, I think that sadly, some of us need protecting from ourselves.
Dad had a heart attack and triple heart bypass last year. He's still mainlining bacon and sausages and doing no exercise. It's infuriating. He then sulks when me and Sister have a go at him for continuing to be a vegetable confiting himself in pig grease. Little Sister is soft with him and tells him to ignore her elder siblings.
Hi friend is about to lose a leg to diabetes, still drinking and eating rubbish Now worried about not being able to go on holiday, rather than losing a leg.
All in their 60s, don't care about longevity. All surprised to have made it this far. How do you change those mindsets? Because nothing works, not even grim reality.
anagallis_argensis, but your sample is clearly not representative of the general population so there’s some sort of skew going on.
I think that was my point
All in their 60s, don’t care about longevity. All surprised to have made it this far. How do you change those mindsets? Because nothing works, not even grim reality.
You probably don't but what % of unhealthy people who are unhealthy in areas a government could do something about have that sort of mindset? Who knows.
They could start by addressing this https://www.ippr.org/media-office/years-of-under-investment-in-englands-streets-has-left-people-walk-wary-and-cycle-cautious-says-new-report
And actually build/rebuild infrastructure for living, not driving.
translation: it’s absolute bollocks which I cannot substantiate and I know it 🙂 Your third point completely refutes your initial assertion, for one thing.
You may or may not choose to believe it, but please remain polite.
It seems to me that there are two of us on this thread who probably know more about obesity and public health, and that we’re broadly in agreement, it’s just that we disagree with you.
I’m one of those people you’ve never met. I also know multiple other people who’ve lost weight by getting into cycling later in life
I would suggest that anyone who gets into cycling to a reasonable degree, and more so mtbs, is unlikely to be in the strata of UK society that becomes / is susceptible obese as a result of poverty . Serious cycling is not cheap and anyone with the disposable income and the desire to become healthier via cycling is likely to be able to afford to, and want to, make other changes to their diet at the same time.
tjagainFull Member
as mentioned above we also need to change attitudes to obesity. My GP told me I am slim. I am actually right at the top edge of “normal” BMI pushing towards overweight and at least a stone overweight
This. Obesity has become normalised. Being slim is becoming a rarity, and people see being “chubby” as being ok.
I would suggest that anyone who gets into cycling to a reasonable degree, and more so mtbs, is unlikely to be in the strata of UK society that becomes / is susceptible obese as a result of poverty . Serious cycling is not cheap and anyone with the disposable income and the desire to become healthier via cycling is likely to be able to afford to, and want to, make other changes to their diet at the same time.
This is a society wide problem. It's not just the poorest and most disadvantaged that have become larger and less unhealthy. We must stop talking like it is a from for 'them'. Yes, the solutions might differ for different sectors of the population but in the example above, this person who got on a bike and changed other aspects of their life previously hadn't. We need more of those success stories because for every one of those with the disposable income and wherewithal to do something about it who does there are....15 or 20 (pure guess work) who are not.
It seems to me that there are two of us on this thread who probably know more about obesity and public health, and that we’re broadly in agreement, it’s just that we disagree with you.
this.
I think that was my point
@anagallis_arvensis: Based on your post on the ‘Unspoken battles with your other half…’ thread my wife thinks you and I are the same person, so it’s good to see that we agree 🙂
This is a society wide problem. It’s not just the poorest and most disadvantaged that have become larger and less unhealthy.
in my observations around here in the poorer areas you see fat women and thin men, in the affluent areas its skinny women and fat men
How do people feel about enforcing calorie information on restaurant and takeaway foods?
Meta studies show that it doesn't really make any difference. The most succes that has ever been shown for schemes like this is that they can do briefly as folks go "Look at the calories in that" and may make temporary changes, and then they either don't look any more, or make a decision that goes "I want a burger anyway, so I may as well have the 750 Kcal one over the 500Kcal one". If it makes a difference to you personally, it's likely that you would do that anyway, for most of the folks that should pay attention to it, won't. Plus it's pretty bad overall for the mental health of folks that have food based mental health issue.
But, it's a cheap way for the Govt - like pictures of diseased lungs on cigarette packets, to be able to say that they're providing information, or they taken steps to alert people to what's in their food, or some other such nonsense. About the only indicator that folks pay attention to, and that's easily identifiable is the coloured traffic light system. Which is why the food industry has -successfully so far , lobbied hard against its wider uptake.
Driving everywhere has become just so normalised and so few kids cycle or walk to school so don't get the experience at the start of their lives, even on here there are many threads about what car/insurance to get my son/daughter. Going back over 20yrs now but my son got called names because he cycled to secondary school. Where I live now there is a half decent shared use path which has recently just been linked up to the local school with HS2 funding & guess what a fair few kids cycle to school. No amount of advertising & education is going to help if there isn't the infrastructure in place to start with.
I would suggest that anyone who gets into cycling to a reasonable degree, and more so mtbs, is unlikely to be in the strata of UK society that becomes / is susceptible obese as a result of poverty
No one is obese as a result of poverty, you are confusing cause and effect with a correlation. Obesity is caused by over eating, especially poor quality food, and lack of exercise. These two things are closely linked with poverty for many obvious reasons.
The suggestion that exercise is not linked to reduced obesity is ridiculous. I agree that telling obese people to exercise is not helpful and I agree that even when they do exercise it doesn't help much this is because this:
You learn to do the activity more efficiently and so use less energy when doing it.
Is also bollocks Pogacar does not have more efficient mitochondria than me, he has more mitochondria, so he burns more fuel, I also burn more fuel than an obese person starting biking if we both did an hour's ride at a similar level of exertion. I might do 200w they might do 100w, I have burnt more fuel. This is the crux of why exercising to lose weight is tough. But sticking at it and getting fitted will see benefits as you will start to burn more fuel. Easier said than done obviously.
Look at the calories in that
Another big problem, we should not be looking at the calories in the food but the calories absorbed into the blood from the food. 300kJ of carrots compared to 300kJ of ultra processed pizza or whatever will affect the body differently.
Calorie labelling on menus has little impact on consumer behaviour, but may lead to beneficial reformulation of the food itself.
No amount of advertising & education is going to help if there isn’t the infrastructure in place to start with.
Spot-on @Dickyboy - and this applies just as much to diet as it does to physical activity.
Is also bollocks
In 2012 Hunter gatherers (the Hazda) were given GPS trackers to measure their activity and turns out that they expend almost identical energy as the average office worker although they still move around much more. It's probably a decent study to show how we all share a common genetic inheritance. They compensate by resting more, and their bodies are more efficient at doing the long distance hunting thing.
Our obesity epidemic is almost all down to the environment we've created for ourselves rather than any significant decrease in exercise that folks are doing (or not)
In 2012 Hunter gatherers (the Hazda) were given
That's great but what does it have to do with the UK's obesity epidemic. I reckon all of us are not hunter gatherers
It’s probably a decent study to show how we all share a common genetic inheritance
What does this even mean?
Our obesity epidemic is almost all down to the environment we’ve created for ourselves rather than any significant decrease in exercise that folks are doing (or not)
Do you have evidence for this? Care to address the point I made or not Pog is not more efficient than me at a cellular respiration level
I'm noticing that there are a lot more fat young (20's) people lately (predominantly girls) and it's not exclusively in areas you'd associate with poverty.
A lot at the gym too, so whether they are trying to do something about it by being at the gym, or the exercise just isn't helping (due to their lifestyle outside of the gym), who knows?
Whilst poverty can lead to bad habits and obesity, there are a lot of overweight/obese people in all walks of life these days that probably aren't poor
There's also the fact that we covered a while back (I used Lizzo as an example) that the media celebrate/normalise being fat these days
What does this even mean?
That genetically; all humans are broadly alike. If you stuck the Hazda in our environment, regardless of how many miles and miles they might want to trek, they'd probably over generations show the same sorts of weight gains the we do. It's more beneficial to study these people than it is to compare yourself to a genetic freak like Pogacar.
That genetically; all humans are broadly alike.
But
a genetic freak like Pogacar.
We all have the same genes as humans I am not sure what your point is you are going round in circles. My point about Pog and cellular respiration is valid just as much as my example of comparing me with a non cyclist, I can likely put out twice the power of a non cyclist so use twice the energy. This energy has to come from food so I can eat more and not gain weight. Losing weight comes from a calorie deficit. That can be produced from less energy into the blood from food or more used from exercise, to try to deny this is ridiculous and would mean rewriting the laws of physics. I accept it's a simplification of how you can actually lose weight and I accept that losing weight isn't easy but calorie deficit will lead to weight loss (again it must be calories absorbed not consumed). I bet these hunter gatherers you like talking about were absorbing far less calories than they were eating in comparison to a typical UK family
A lot at the gym too, so whether they are trying to do something about it by being at the gym, or the exercise just isn’t helping
I see quite a few overweight people downing protein shakes and energy drinks all the time so that they can go to the gym or recover from the gym.....
We all have the same genes as humans I am not sure what your point is you are going round in circles.
But how you process the same food can be massively different to how the next person does; Gut biome, metabolism and so on means that the calories you extract from the same meal may be different from the next person, so your rate of energy expenditure may be different* Comparing one person against another person isn't worthwhile. Comparing groups is. In a 2019 study People who eat the same amount of calories, nutrients etc but get that from unprocessed food didn't gain weight compared to people who eat exactly the same calories and nutritional intake but made with high or ultra highly processed food. Highly processed food is the link to all these studies, we're not eating the same food that our parents and grandparents ate, and it's making us fat.
*although, humans aren't calorimeters, we're not 'burning' our food.
Is also bollocks
You seem very angry about this subject, and the fact that it may be more complex than you think.
No one is obese as a result of poverty
I never knew food poverty was just a lifestyle choice, people are obese because they make poor decisions.
The latest episode of the Streets Ahead podcast features some positive rumblings from Louise Haigh MP, Secretary of State for Transport. In an interview, she openly discusses how an effective active travel infrastructure will increase the health and well-being of the population (and save the NHS a load of cash). The proof will be in the delivery, of course.
so on means that the calories you extract from the same meal may be different from the next person, so your rate of energy expenditure may be different
You are just talking gibberish. You seem confused intake and expenditure. You also don't seem to have read anything I have said.
In a 2019 study People who eat the same amount of calories, nutrients etc but get that from unprocessed food didn’t gain weight compared to people who eat exactly the same calories and nutritional intake but made with high or ultra highly processed food
So we agree it's calories absorbed that is key.
You seem very angry about this subject, and the fact that it may be more complex than you think.
Not angry at all tbh. You are talking bollocks by saying that exercise is not linked to obesity, it may be a smaller factor than diet but it cannot possible not be a causative factor unless you are suggesting the laws of physics are wrong.
As eloquently pointed out by several posters; it is a complex web of determinants that leads to obesity. Different combinations of factors can lead to the same outcome but with commonalities at a population level. It doesn’t preclude that some approaches, with a more narrow focus, can work for not inconsequential numbers of people although not at a population level e.g. specific dietary and lifestyle approaches used by groups of GPs.
There is also a bigger, linked, picture around the economy, societal happiness and our health span with lots of commonalities. Changing how we structure school, educational topics and focus, activity, active transport, built environments, food environments, poverty, societal norms, attitudes towards exercise and on. So, most of us are right and wrong, do what we can wherever we can?!?
Working with patients over more than two decades, the solution to the same problem is totally different for different patients. Sometimes it is exercise, other times it might be to join a gardening or painting group. But that is only for small numbers of people, with support, and not going to change anything at a population level. 🙂
In an interview, she openly discusses how an effective active travel infrastructure will increase the health and well-being of the population (and save the NHS a load of cash).
Anecdotally, a good chunk of NHS workers I encounter are fat
I never knew food poverty was just a lifestyle choice, people are obese because they make poor decisions.
Poverty is one major factor. Known about decades a go. Orwell wrote about it. This is not anything new or controversial . Its well known and documented
Playing catch up on this thread-hence possibly already discussed, but there needs to be a shift in mindset re: obesity being an individual responsibility to ‘eat less and move more’ to a fundamental change to the system we live in which is driving obesity. Basically the environmental, wider building blocks of health (e.g. housing, economy, employment, education etc) play a far bigger role in determining our health. The Foresight report already cited earlier in the thread shows the huge range of factors in the system map that influence energy balance and shows sheer complexity of this challenge. Having deduced who Lorax is, the reality is that there is no single solution to tackling obesity! Responsibility also does not sit with one organisation etc- there needs to be shared understanding of this complexity and how everyone has a role to play. Prevention of obesity and enabling children to have a healthy weight to enable future generation to start on lower risk trajectory is crucial. At an individual level, there will remain a need for effective weight management support (despite GLP-1 and GIP RA drugs with proven efficacy for weight loss, weight loss maintenance remains the million dollar question even following bariatric surgery). Further challenge is the misunderstanding, stigma and discrimination regarding people living with obesity, which is stopping people from getting treatment and support.