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Just read this article on amputations due to diabetes
Quite apart from the misery these people endure is the cost to the NHS. I'm sure a huge amount of NHS expenditure is easily avoidable if only we could encourage people to look after themselves. Yes I am aware of the poverty/junk food trap.
That's a grim read before bed.
I suppose don't eat processed food and exercise daily. Not sure how you would persuade people to stay healthy.
Stop the large food companies lobbying and donating to politicians plus tax and regulate addictive unhealthy food.
what Horatio says. Our poor food and high rates of obesity are basically down to unethical behaviour from food companies.
Yep, needs heavy government involvement. Forcing people to exercise is going to be tricky but removing all foods that are unhealthy is easy enough although the cries of nanny state and I didn't vote for this would be heard for years (which would be a fair point!).
If unhealthy foods were not an option then the manufacturers of them would either cease or change to make healthier foods or be replaced by companies making healthier foods. It is how the governments should lead the private sector.
Have a listen to this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0021xv1?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
Ultra-Processed Foods (UPF), as defined by the NOVA Food Classification system, are the most problematic, and are causing more addicted like behaviours in people. They say if the addiction was formalised, then Government's would have to do more to regulate these foods and the food industry
Dont know but banning all unhealthy food is a non starter. Better regulation of how food is made definitely but a ban no chance.
The public need to take some personal responsibility as well, why do people still deliberately choose full fat Coke when there are excellent sugar free alternatives as an example.
Maybe there needs to be some acceptance that without draconian controls this problem wont go away (and draconian controls aren't and option). Also need the NHS to do an about face and properly concentrate on prevention rather than cure. That also includes being blunt with people whem they first present with issues about the serious need for lifestyle change to hopefully shock a few into realising its on them as much as anyone to change.
Healthy food needs to be the cheapest option, make all the ultra processed stuff really expensive (it already is tbh, but obviously not enough)
Active travel needs to be the easiest, safest and cheapest option also.
why do people still deliberately choose full fat Coke when there are excellent sugar free alternatives as an example.
That is really missing the point. I like full fat coke. It’s no worse or better than the sugar free alternatives that are just as bad
Its the main foods that people eat that are full of fat, sugar, salt etc
why do people still deliberately choose full fat Coke when there are excellent sugar free alternatives as an example.
I don't drink fizzy pop often but when I do its always full fat as I cannot stand the taste of artificial sweeteners. some research also shows artificial sweeteners also are implicated in obesity because your body is expecting sugar so produces insulin dropping your blood sugar and making you more hungry so you end up eating more
why do people still deliberately choose full fat Coke when there are excellent sugar free alternatives as an example
Why does anyone drink any fizzy sugar crap on a regular basis?
although the cries of nanny state and I didn’t vote for this would be heard for years
Only till their preferences cause them to die early.
I’m sure a huge amount of NHS expenditure is easily avoidable if only we could encourage people to look after themselves.
“Easily” ?
That also includes being blunt with people whem they first present with issues about the serious need for lifestyle change to hopefully shock a few into realising its on them as much as anyone to change.
Yeah. Doesn’t work.
Obesity is mostly a disease of poverty. That’s where we need to start.
We also need to understand that short of Bariatric surgery, obesity isn’t reversible. There are some effective short and medium term interventions that work for some people, but in the long term the vast majority regain the weight.
Joined up travel policies, sugar taxes and walkable neighbourhoods probably have a part to play too.
Availability, cost, simplicity, education, culture, human nature.
Heathier options need to be available, particularly for eating out and takeaways. If I want to buy a healthy lunch, I have far more choice in London than I do locally. Availability is driven by commercial factors.
Unhealthy options seem cheaper when eating out. Bag of chips? Burger? Cheaper compared to a freshly made salad with enough in it to compete on attraction with the burger and chips.
Simplicity. Many people know that cooking from scratch with fresh ingredients can be cheaper than buying a ready meal but it takes perceived time and effort. Which leads to...
Education. I didn't really learn to cook until after uni. Before that I used to heat frozen things. It took time to learn how I could turn a few things into a healthy meal in 20 minutes. But not everyone feels they have the time and energy to do that.
Culture. If I'm in the (London) office with others we'll go to Itsu 90% of the time, Pret the other 10%. No-one has ever said "lets go to McDonalds". We're lucky to have the money, availability and knowledge to pick places with healthier options.
Human nature. We crave fat and sugar. If it's there in front of me I'll eat it, so I'll avoid those temptations.
People need to be happy and optimistic to stay healthy, I think. The world is not a happy place for a lot of people. Diet and mental health seem to be linked.
RE obesity, I watched something not long ago about the links between gut microbiome and health. I don't know how valid or influential it may be in reality but the processed food influence on gut health seems like a reasonable link to make. I know someone with IBS that seems stress-related and after some months of eating more fermented food and other things that are said to help the gut, for them it's all reduced considerably. The programme I saw suggested that it can also be influential on weight or obesity.
Dont know but banning all unhealthy food is a non starter.
Why?
The public need to take some personal responsibility as well, why do people still deliberately choose full fat Coke when there are excellent sugar free alternatives as an example.
Couldn't have given a worse example. Many studies show that you would be better off drinking the sugar version as it doesn't tend to lead to cancer. Personal responsibility doesn't work well does it.
A little while ago, there was a Jamie Oliver programme about basic / cheap cooking. Regardless of whether you like JO or not, it was eye-opening in seeing how many people simply cannot cook.
Like, can barely boil an egg level of can't cook. So they existed on takeaways, crisps/sweets/biscuits, because it was all convenient and because they were lazy.
I don't mean "lazy" in a bad way as such, just that people are lazy and will always take the easiest option. It's easy to tap on a phone and have a takeaway delivered 10 minutes later, it's easy to drive the kids 500m to school, it's easy to lounge on a sofa and eat junk, they'll do it!
You can put in place the infrastructure for healthier, sustainable transport - bikes, walking etc. You can legislate to, if not ban unhealthy, ultra-processed foods, at least label them as such and tie that in with public education about what that means. You can potentially make UPF less attractive by taxing it. You can look at ways of creating a better work/life balance for people, more time, less stress via, say, a four-day week or universal basic wage.
You can also fund the NHS to run schemes aimed at preventative projects rather than just treating sick people, ie: make them less likely to be sick in the first place. There's apparently a systemic problem here, in that government has been reluctant to fund preventative measures because, by definition, it's harder/impossible to measure the number of people who don't get ill relative to, say, the precise stats you get for say, the number of medical procedures undertaken / drugs prescribed etc. At least according to a mate who used to sit on high-up NHS panels, so it may be (semi)-fiction and is at best anecdotal, but seems believable.
I think you have to accept that it's a slow-burn process, at odds with our political system which is in five-year election blocks, but it can work, see cigarette smoking as an example. It's a huge ask though, while convenient UPF is cheap and abundant relative to healthier options. People are time-poor - see also the need for a dual income in many areas to be able to afford housing and the time pressures that brings - and we have an insidious culture of car use for even the shortest journeys.
There's so many interlinked factors its difficult to know where to start. Regulate the food industry. We used to have a world class salt reduction programme in ready made food that was the envy of the world, no one will be surprised to hear that the Tories watered down the regulations and now we're back to square one. They need to be forced to either label food correctly or change their ingredients - although this will increase the cost of food, so you might have to do a drastic thing like make a "people's menu" of food items that are price regulated. Make it easier to get around on foot and by bike, make food education a priority, sort out the mental health crisis, provide meaningful employment opportunities.
You can't ban food, and I wouldn't want to go that far, but you do have to restrict it, or tax it, or do something to put it out of the reach of kids pocket money especially.
The public need to take some personal responsibility as well, why do people still deliberately choose full fat Coke when there are excellent sugar free alternatives as an example.
This comment and the responses to it so far highlight one of the problems. There are many perceived healthier options which aren't actually healthy at all.
Sweeteners have been shown to spike insulin and contribute to diabetes just as sugar does.
Fact is, 90% of what's on our supermarket shelves is junk. Eating healthy in our current environment takes a lot of knowledge and discipline, which can only suggest there's something wrong with the environment.
If you want the general public to eat healthily, then it needs to be easy.
Forcing people to exercise is going to be tricky
We don't need to force anyone to exercise. Most people have no interest in 'exercise'. All you need is for the average person to incorporate a modest amount of activity into their day.
See the active travel thread. Make it easy (and appealing) to get people moving in their daily routine.
The best example of the success of the food lobbying industry is the completely shambolic food labelling we have in this country.
Many studies show that you would be better off drinking the sugar version as it doesn’t tend to lead to cancer.
There's not a one sized fits all when talking about coke. If you're diabetic, diet is 'better' than regular, and you need to drink something like 15-20 cans of the diet version a day to be at an increased risk of cancer. But the diet version triggers the same sugar craving response that regular coke does. Personally I'd say; chose the one you like the taste of, don't have too much regardless.
There is strong evidence that pretty moderate amounts of exercise has a genuinely significant impact on reducing type 2 diabetes - just 30/40 minutes of brisk walking a day.
That should be the focus as it's simple and easily achievable for most people. Some really hard hitting adverts showing the impact of type 2 diabetes on individuals
Forcing people to exercise is going to be tricky
There's a massive difference in the level of exercise you need to do to be fit - to do something like mountain biking, and the amount you need to do to be healthy
Fact is, 90% of what’s on our supermarket shelves is junk. Eating healthy in our current environment takes a lot of knowledge and discipline, which can only suggest there’s something wrong with the environment.
Exactly. Change it so only 10% of the food on the shelves is junk and the environment become much better. How do you get from 90% to 10% though, sound like tight government control over what is produced and how is not going down well.
There is strong evidence that pretty moderate amounts of exercise has a genuinely significant impact on reducing type 2 diabetes – just 30/40 minutes of brisk walking a day.
That doesn't sound pretty moderate to a lot of people who currently pretty much do nothing
it was eye-opening in seeing how many people simply cannot cook.
Having been dating again this year, my eyes were indeed opened as to how many middle aged women could barely cook.
fund the NHS to run schemes aimed at preventative projects rather than just treating sick people, ie: make them less likely to be sick in the first place.
My work is mostly on programmes (usually paid by local councils) to help people get into healthier lifestyles. It feels a bit like tinkering around the edges TBH, but they can work really well when people are engaged. It would be good to see a more holistic and consistent approach generally though. Coverage can be patchy and contract lengths short.
Make people happier and make the world they live in a happier place. People who see a happy future for themselves make decisions to ensure and protect that future. Bad diet is just one of the self destructive traits of people who aren't looking forward to the future.
Forcing people to exercise is going to be tricky
There’s a massive difference in the level of exercise you need to do to be fit – to do something like mountain biking, and the amount you need to do to be healthy
I think this is such a key issue - for all the work the health sector does to encourage healthy behaviour there are much louder, brasher, sparkly, profit motivated voices trampling over those messages and confusing 'health' and 'fitness'. The main harm they cause is to link 'exercise' to appear to be something difficult, committing, sweaty and complicated. Probably something that requires special shoes and a membership to something, When all thats actually required is walk about a bit. Genuine healthy choices can't be monetised so the messages get swamped by faddish nonsense.
In health terms the difference between being 'inactive' and 'active' is loads. The difference between being active and world champion 'fit', in terms of health benefits, is minimal. Otherwise marathon gold medalists and TDF winners would live to be 150 and I'm pretty sure they don't
Fact is, 90% of what’s on our supermarket shelves is junk.
This is a bit of a throwback - remember the iDave diet thread? What was interesting about the menu it created wasn't the nutritional science but simply the shopping. By excluding a few key ingredients what you actually did was exclude swathes of what a supermarket sells - there were whole aisles that there was no reason to walk down. Theres such a proportion of shelf space dedicated to calories that you don't actually put on a plate and consume as part of a meal.
What that thread also revealed was how many folk on the forum who thought they could cook learning that what they actually do is warm things up.
This is a really really tricky one as someone that owns and runs a food shop (very small convenience / village shop)...
We'd love to sell more healthy foods, however they are vastly more expensive than hpf's. I'm asked why we don't sell things like cereal bars (which are still an hpf) instead of chocolate - it's because I can't sell through a case without half of them going off. The food industry, and in particular convenience foods is almost 100% geared towards sugar and hpf's the trade magazines advertise and promote only unhealthy foods.
Imo it's not a foods industry issue it's an entire society issue. It needs changing, but not through the food industry, do it in schools. Didn't Glasgow has managed to change how society viewed unhealthy foods by education over the last 20 years or so rather than enforcement.we need to do this at a national level.
regarding the use of body shapes
Thats a whole other problem - colliding health and vanity issues. I think particularly in relation to women's health the discussion of weight in relation to health and unhealthy expectations placed upon women all get jumbled up
Converse to the TikTok influencers at one end of the scale, at the other we have a more well meaning media that misrepresents weight related risks. Any feature on health/ weight/ exercise /diet will invariably be illustrated by sending some hapless AP out with a camera to film morbidly obese people in the street, tactfully cutting their heads off. I often wonder what the total run time of all the BBCs accumulated archive of headless fat people in shopping centres is.
In most cases morbid obesity isn't the issue actually being discussed, just, usually, being a little bit over weight. So whatever issue, risk, action is being debated whether its risks to the person or burden on the state - the viewer doesn't see and being applicable to them but a problem pertaining to or caused by, other people.
I don't think people recognise how close to a 'normal' weight (and appearance) the boundary to weight related ill-health is. Its not unlikely most of the people on this thread could be at or over that boundary and still be seeing it as an 'other people' problem.
That is really missing the point. I like full fat coke. It’s no worse or better than the sugar free alternatives that are just as bad
Its the main foods that people eat that are full of fat, sugar, salt etc
"Sugar-free" soft drinks are absolutely vile stuff. As noted by a couple of folks, aspartame is horrendous stuff and really bad for the body; fructose syrup also does awful things in large volumes too. And "main foods" vs "large quantities of soft drinks" is a false distinction.
The basics are pretty simple. Regardless of how it's done, healthy food has to be cheaper, and unhealthy food has to be priced to reflect the full cost not just of production but of the health effects of it. Random example, but it's like chewing gum - how is that only £2 a pack when it can cost far more to remove the stuff from pavements?
Exercise is a tougher nut to crack - those who 'get' it will generally lean towards doing exercise, at least occasionally. Those who don't see the point can't be convinced that it's worthwhile; they have to be encouraged through behavioural economics etc
Cast your minds back to Jamie's school dinners I think it was. He removed shite from the lunch menu and introduced healthier options. Cue a bunch of thick as **** mums doing chippy runs for the children. This kind of mentality will stop any meaningful progress.
In terms of exercise look at cycling for example. Reasons for not taking it up as a commuting option often include the "weather". I was in Copenhagen a few years back in February. Couldn't move for cycles, same with Amsterdam. It's a mindset.
On the positive side I am a member of Pure Gym and it is always busy in the evening and includes couples and groups of younger males and females hanging out. In terms of cost, it is a very cheap way of keeping fit and is accessible to most people. It's not all doom and gloom.
In terms of exercise look at cycling for example. Reasons for not taking it up as a commuting option often include the “weather”. I was in Copenhagen a few years back in February. Couldn’t move for cycles, same with Amsterdam. It’s a mindset.
I'm gong to be contavercial here but what killed cycling participation in the UK, I'm mind, was the Raleigh Chopper. We weirdly treat it as some sort of cultural icon but it recast the bicycle as a toy and for a lot of people it's fondly remembered as the last bike they rode before they grew out of cycling. The grifter and even the BMXs that followed all really were part of the same thing.
(I say that as someone who didn't have a Chopper or a Grifter and had to build a BMX out of rusty remnants from other people's gardens and wheels from a Dawes shopper becuase by dad bought me a touring bike instead)
on Diet Coke...
why do people still deliberately choose full fat Coke when there are excellent sugar free alternatives as an example.
As above, sweeteners have been shown to cause excessive consumption > obesity > diabetes.
And,
the completely shambolic food labelling we have in this country.
Diet Coke, a completely synthetic product with zero nutritional value and negative health effects, comes out 100% green and healthy according the labels.
There's so much wrong with the system.
The press always talk about people at risk from type 2 diabetes and their message is if you lose weight and eat a healthy diet all will be well.
I don't believe it. I am at risk from type 2 diabetes as my blood sugar is elevated, I got the eating for idiots talk from the practice nurse at my GPs which was patronising and little short of insulting.
I cycle between 350 and 500 miles a month (no ebike), when I don't cycle I walk, kayak, and do other outdoor activities.
I have a vegan diet, which is mostly home cooked, don't eat fake meat or cheese, don't eat sweets cakes etc and drink less than 4x330 ml cans of beer a week and drink no soft drinks.
I don't eat takeaways, and go to eat out very rarely.
I do not eat vast amounts, but I have not lost any weight.
I don't think its trivial for people to loose weight easily and think that type two diabetes is not that currable by diet and exercise. It may be possible to make short term changes by diet changes but your body tends to compensate and then your weight increases.
The media is selling a narative that type 2 diabetes is your own fault as you have had a poor life style, but I believe it's as a result to changes in your body. couple this with loss of muscle mass as a result of ageing and people are in trouble.
There needs to be better reseach around type 2 diabetes other than short term diet interventions and any diet intervention study needs to be followed over several years to see the long term results.
There is no easy fix. Just getting people on a bike and changing their diet will be benificial but won't be a magic bullet. I commuted by bike for most of my working life still had a heart attack in my late 50s and am now facing possible type 2 diabetes what more should I do?
There are many reasons this is such a problem. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet I think is moderation. The odd can of full fat coke won't do you much harm, but one every day might. One of the dads at my sons old football team used to drink 3 cans of coke during a 60 min football match that kicked off at 9am. He usually had a snickers in his other hand.
With regard to processed food I think all the attention is on what you eat. All this "bad unhealthy stuff". Whereas the real problem is what you DONT eat, like green vegetables.
In other words there are no unhealthy foods, but there certainly are unhealthy diets.
And I find it astonishing when this country is so obsessed with education (making kids stay in it until age 18 is it? massively regulated nation curriculum) and yet there seems to be little attention to some of the basic life skills, and even less on helping people analyse the motive behind what's told to them on Tik Tok, Instagram, Mail Online, Talk Radio, GB News.
As a slight aside, it only recently struck me (as a carpenter I get fed Instagram stuff related to DIY, woodwork etc.) why so many "how to" videos show techniques that are plain wrong (Yes, Crafty Panda, I'm talking about you). It's because the thousands of comments they generate. Yes, you earn more showing wrong techniques than showing right ones.
Is it any wonder people make the wrong choices in life?
Start with hospital catering, school catering, and anywhere else there's a sitting target.
I've visited Brighton hoespital a fair few times recently, and the catering there is abysmal. Food cooked elsewhere (highly processed) and shipped in. The only food in the snack shop in A&E not to have sugar as the main ingredient are the crisps.
Other hospitals are equally as bad...
a few years back, a hospital in leicestershire won the BBC food and farming awards cos of an innovative chef who was employed to take catering back in house. They used fresh local produce to feed patients. Doctors and nurses started nicking spare meals so they made more to feed them. Ultimately they kicked out Costa or whoever and started running the cafes, thus subsidising the patient catering.
Anyone know which hospital this was?
I don’t believe it. I am at risk from type 2 diabetes as my blood sugar is elevated,
commuted by bike for most of my working life still had a heart attack in my late 50s and am now facing possible type 2 diabetes what more should I do?
A lot of the discussion in the media is driven by research and policies that are population based, not individual based. If more people in a population lose weight, fewer people across that population with have type 2 diabetes. Thats not the same as if I lose weight I will not get type 2 diabetes. The risk of diabetes exists for everyone for a multitude of reasons - its not a one cause, ones solution scenario.
The issue of weight in it all can be a smoke screen - weight gain might cause diabetes. Or a precursor to diabetes might cause weight gain - the weight might be a symptom rather than a cause.
We report and consume these issues with key bits of information missing. Story today about how eating two slices of ham a day risk of diabetes by 15%. 15% increase relative to what? The news article neglects to say. If you take away that 15% increase the result isn't no risk, the result is a normal amount risk, whatever that is.
In other words there are no unhealthy foods, but there certainly are unhealthy diets.
This.
This morning I popped into a local cafe while out on a ride (to get my hair cut), Link Sausages in a roll and a Latte - why should I pay more for certain foods just because other folk have no will-power?
Maybe some pictures of amputated legs on the packaging of food that doesn’t meet a certain level of nutrition or exceeds a set processing level etc. Like the labels on packets of cigs.
As @Kramer says, it makes very little difference for the majority. A good friend was a prosthesist in Manchester, the bulk of his customers were morbidly obese and it takes sustained effort over a number of years to get to the point where you need extremities removing (feet usually) there will have been a lot of advice, help and warnings during that time.
Education is the start point. Make cooking, meal prep/planning, what's in food, what it's good for, part of the curriculum from an early age. Aim for every kid leaving high school to be able to cook 5 healthy meals from scratch. Make sure they know where food comes from, what it's made up of, when to use it. I don't like the good/bad approach, pretty much all food has it's place you just have to know when to have it and what needs moderation.
Find a way of reversing the narrative that a takeaway is a treat, and get people to realise a good, home cooked meal is often better. But also accept that everyone, me included, sometimes wants a kebab and chips washed down with a fizzy drink.
Put some pressure on retailers to make fresh food cheaper and more accessible. Little things like being able to buy a single carrot or leek in the supermarket rather than buying a whole bag, 1/2 of which will be wasted.
Get people reading Jamie Oliver's cook books (or someone similar). A lot of his stuff is really, really easy to make and needs very few fancy ingredients. Almost anyone can make a good meal from them, particularly if they've had the grounding in education mentioned above. Make cooking simple, some people only have access to a 2 burner hob and 2 pans, so make sure they can cook too, not just the fella with an oven, an air fryer, 4 burners and a microwave.
Tie this all in with exercise, exercise that's not seen as exercise. Getting movement part of peoples every day lives, a walk to the shop, a cycle to the train station, whatever. That'll mean investment in cycling and walking infrastructure along with public transport. The latter is important as the bus rarely drops you off outside your door so you inevitably end up with a walk at either end, free exercise.
From a legislative perspective, I'd be taxing delivery services more highly so if you want a takeaway you have to collect it, take away some of the convenience. I suspect there's also some work to be done on food labelling but I don't know enough to say what that would be.
I have a vegan diet, which is mostly home cooked, don’t eat fake meat or cheese, don’t eat sweets cakes etc and drink less than 4×330 ml cans of beer a week and drink no soft drinks.
There is some more nuanced stuff around this and the points in your post.
Sometime around the 70s we decided fats were bad and carbs were good, so we switched from high fat diets to high carb diets. There's a growing consensus now that it's potentially the overconsumption of carbs that is driving so much disease, including diabetes. Reducing or even completely removing refined sugars doesn't necessarily make you safe if the majority of your diet is made up of carbs.
This may or may not be true for you, I've no idea, but I mention here because I know from my own experience, especially if you follow a vegan or vegetarian diet, it's very easy to over rely on carb dense foods (which also tend to contain few nutrients), and can put yourself at risk even if you're following a diet made up of mostly natural foods.
That's partly a messaging problem in my opinion, and the fact we've been putting out the wrong messaging for the best part of 50 years.
I have not lost any weight.
Again, high carb diet is generally a factor here. All the sugar gets stored straight to fat.
The media is selling a narative that type 2 diabetes is your own fault as you have had a poor life style, but I believe it’s as a result to changes in your body.
Diet and lifestyle have a direct and very powerful influence on those changes in the body.
There needs to be better reseach around type 2 diabetes other than short term diet interventions and any diet intervention study needs to be followed over several years to see the long term results.
Short term dietary changes are definitely not the answer. Only long term cultural ones can possibly work.
The evidence for diet driving the increase in diabetes is conclusive, but there is also growing evidence that diet can, at least partially, reverse diabetes. That needs to be studied a lot more.
Laziness and education are the problem.
Plus acceptance that being a tub of lard is ok. Good living , carrying a bit of timber etc .
Plus , ease of buying 24 packs of crisps .
Plus time crunched parents driving to McDonald's and the ease of fast food collection via apps and delivery services.
Plus total denial that eating a packet of custard creams every day will turn you into a diabetic.
Plus total lazy adults who will go for a walk , but have to park within 50m of the start point and have a meltdown if the carpark is full, and I have watched people drive 25mttr to another pay and display machine as the nearest one was broken.
I am not that dumb. I carefully control my carbon intake but still need some cards to maintain energy levels for exercise.
Most people would not like my diet or level of activity but most people would generally be better off with a modest increase in activity and a better diet. This is a hard sell with relentless advertising and product placement.
I know I'm heading towards slightly dodgy ground here, but I also think we need to stop normalising obesity. That we need to be honest with people that being overweight is bad for their health and can/does cause issues. I am not clever enough or nuanced to know how to do this without coming across as insulting, preachy or "nanny state", but it feels like it's a conversation that needs to be had.
On the upside, it does feel like a large(r) proportion of younger people seem to be more aware of their health than previous generations. Gym membership is through the roof, vegan/veg diets are a big thing (cue debate about if they're healthier...).
Education.....you cannot put in during a couple of hours a week what parents have left out.
Make cooking, meal prep/planning, what’s in food, what it’s good for, part of the curriculum from an early age.
It is, maybe not as much of the actual cooking as we would like but food and health and how the two are linked come up continuously in various subjects. People know chips and sweets are not good for them.
I am not that dumb. I carefully control my carbon intake but still need some cards to maintain energy levels for exercise.
Again, it's not a comment on your diet, because I don't know what that is.
It is applicable on a population level as the general guidance around what a balanced diet should be, is increasingly considered to be one of the reasons for our poor health, even if you exclude UPFs.
Hyper-palletable UPFs full of junk ingredients filling the vast majority of our shelves are still the main problem for most people.
Education. It really doesn't have to be that hard or complicated.
Move more.
Lift heavy things.
Don't eat like a 5 year old.
Be consistent.
Obesity is mostly a disease of poverty. That’s where we need to start.
So we need to reduce poverty for a start.
We also need to understand that short of Bariatric surgery, obesity isn’t reversible.
Bariatric surgery is suggested by the NHS in the case of severe obesity (BMI over 40, or over 35 where there are other health issues such as type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure). Obesity starts at a BMI of around 35 and the initial advice is diet and exercise.
As an indication, I'm in the "healthy" range. To count as obese I would be 50% heavier. To be severely obese I would be 100% heavier.
private healthcare
And I find it astonishing when this country is so obsessed with education (making kids stay in it until age 18 is it? massively regulated nation curriculum) and yet there seems to be little attention to some of the basic life skills, and even less on helping people analyse the motive behind what’s told to them on Tik Tok, Instagram, Mail Online, Talk Radio, GB News.
Yep - there's a whole tranche of general "life skills" missing from education. Cooking, running a family budget, taxes, credit cards, critical thinking, online safety...
Instead you get people who will deliberately think differently cos it makes them feel special, like they're privvy to some sort of higher power which is how you end up with idiot flat earthers and anti-vaxxers and other conspiracy theorists.
The media is selling a narative that type 2 diabetes is your own fault as you have had a poor life style, but I believe it’s as a result to changes in your body. couple this with loss of muscle mass as a result of ageing and people are in trouble.
It usually is diet and lifestyle related but not always
In other words there are no unhealthy foods, but there certainly are unhealthy diets.
Not so really - some "foods" are inherently unhealthy. Anything with high fructose corn syrup for a start.
These discussions often tend to focus of stuff that should be banned (or penalised in some way) and on education. But I think the key should be to promote a healthy lifestyle rather that focusing on individual foods and it should be more about showing than telling.
For example, on Saturday I had a smoked sausage supper (Scottish for "stick some chips with that pal") and a can of regular coke for my evening meal. Nobody could call that healthy and if I ate it every day (or even every week) that would be bad. But I'd just finished a five and a half hour trail run and a quick hit of fat, salt, sugar and caffeine was just what I needed. Or at least what I wanted, but the point is that you can eat the occasional crap meal if you are making up for it elsewhere.
You can tell people about healthy lifestyles all day long but to effect a change you've got to get them to feel it. We all know how hard it can be to get off the couch sometimes, but we also now how much better we feel if we do. If you haven't felt that then it is very hard to actually take that first step. So, I think, they key is to get people to that point where they start to feel the benefit. Not really sure how you do that but I'm pretty sure it's a societal change not just a single policy.
Went to France in July, not many fat people there. What do they do differently?
That we need to be honest with people that being overweight is bad for their health
There's actually quite a bit of evidence that being slightly* overweight, helps reduce overall mortality risk and the risk of dementia. People who're carry a bit extra; live longer.
* figures vary about how much fat is good, and its connected to, obviously, other parameters as well.
Love a full fat coke once in a while before a big drive home. I work in quite a few crap neighbourhoods, loads of fat people lumbering around. Local supermarkets have all the crisps, chocolate and rubbish as soon as you go in as opposed to the fruit and veg. Areas that are depressing to work in let alone live in. Social and economic reasons lead to good or bad health. If you have a future and a nice environment you want to live longer. You'd need big economic, health, work, social changes to improve lots of people's health and sadly I can't see that happening.
RE the pics on cigarette packets applied to low nutritional value food,
As @Kramer says, it makes very little difference for the majority.
If it makes little difference why do they use do it with cigs? It may make no difference to the addict but for those yet to get that far down the path, it may. Awareness of what you're looking at in future is no bad thing. Part of the problem generally is the food industry marketing junk as a good day to day option. And while I agree that a moderate diet can include a bit of junk food and you'll be fine, the point is making people aware of what the risks are when that's your diet full stop, something that balances out food industry marketing.
Went to France in July, not many fat people there. What do they do differently?
Education at an early age about a healthy diet and culture (live to eat rather than eat to live)
Can anybody remember the name of the UK dietician who died in mysterious circumstances in France in the 1950s??
Went to France in July, not many fat people there. What do they do differently?
To add to the above higher food standards generally. there is a direct correlation between food standards and obesity
Went to France in July, not many fat people there. What do they do differently?
have a cigarette instead
I wouldn't say I "live healthily", but I'm the same weight at 50 (+/- a kg) as I was when I was 18, BMI sub-21. I've always lived on a high carb diet (mostly bread and a bit of a biscuit habit) and while I'm better with fruit and veg than I used to be, there won't be many days I get 5 portions in. The 2 things I do is be pretty damn active and I rarely drink alcohol (1 or 2 units a week) - its noticeable that if I go on holiday and have a pint most nights when eating out that I go wobbly round the middle very quickly. I also am lucky to have a partner who enjoys cooking and does great meals. I can't remember the last time we had a takeaway - there's no way I'd pay that much for something that's a lot worse than she can knock up. She even does sourdough pizzas now, which basically knock any chain restaurant ones for six.
Eating healthily whilst travelling (which I do a fair bit of) is the difficult bit. Someone upthread mentioned Pret. For me (a bread lover) a Pret Baguette is the minimum standard for a sandwich, yet there was a Guardian article the other day that said that a Pret Ham & Greve baguette was highly unhealthy and full of UPFs (can't find a link). How does a butty that contains ham, cheese and a bit of gardening manage that? Its also now the fat end of a fiver which means unless its on expenses, I'm VERY reluctant to pay - but what else do you eat? You can buy 2 packets of posh M&S biscuits for the same money, and they'll take longer to eat. But healthy...??? Its easy to end up paying £10 -12 for a "meal" that leaves you still hungry - and is STILL "unhealthy". Then you go to Weatherspoons and can get a plate full of "food" and a pint for about the same cost, which fills the void much more efficiently, so why wouldn't you?
Full fat Coke? Yes please. The other stuff tastes hideous, and if I need a Red Ambulance, its because I need a hit of sugar and caffeine. On the subject of fizzy drinks - I have to stay away from the M&S "sugar free" stuff as it gives me hideous gut ache - whatever they use instead of sugar is utter poison to my innards.
How does a butty that contains ham, cheese and a bit of gardening manage that?
sugar in the bread? I know thats the case with subway Ham is highly processed as well usually
As many have mentioned, there are many factors.
It doesnt help that these days you can have any shite in a tray, delivered to the comfort of your own home, at anytime of the day. You dont need to get out of your dressing gown and slippers to have a fat burger and fries delivered at 7am, 2pm or 11pm.
I often see people walking along swigging a can of Monster Energy (other poison in a can is available) at 7am. What has gone wrong in your life that you think its a sensible thing to consume?
Its a lack of knowledge, education and common sense.
Dont get me wrong, we all like a 'treat' from time to time. But moderation is the key.
I feel quite lucky that i really enjoy cycling and running, as it keeps me in a half decent shape (would probably be better if i didnt like larger and crisps).
sugar in the bread? I know thats the case with subway Ham is highly processed as well usually
Read the ingredients on a loaf of bread in the supermarket. Most of them you'll have no clue what they are, or ever likely to find in a household kitchen. I wouldn't be surprised if the 'freshly baked' stuff on the high street is even worse.
Very rarely bread you buy is just 'bread'.
Sorry, but education and move more eat less have been comprehensively debunked as an effective intervention.
IT DOES NOT WORK. IT HAS NEVER WORKED.
If you are slim, good for you, it's likely to be down to a combination of genetics and the fact that you live in a less obesogenic environment.
I mentioned Pret - the Guardian report said "Pret a Manger’s ham and greve baguette - too much salt, saturated fat and total fat, and also too many calories, as judged against official nutritional analysis criteria."
Pret baguette: Energy (Kcal) 596, Fat (g) 25.9, Carbohydrates (g) 57.4, Protein (g) 31.5, Salt (g) 3.85
Compared to a Big Mac: 590 Kcal. 25g Protein, 46g Total Carbs, 34g Total Fat
How do people feel about enforcing calorie information on restaurant and takeaway foods? I'm one of those that looks at the info and takes an informed decision, what's surprising is how few options there are in the average pub chain menu below 1000 kcals.
Sorry, but education and move more eat less have been comprehensively debunked as an effective intervention.
IT DOES NOT WORK. IT HAS NEVER WORKED.
If you are slim, good for you, it’s likely to be down to a combination of genetics and the fact that you live in a less obesogenic environment.
The first part of your statement and the last totally contradict each other. How are you supposed to foster a 'less obesogenic environment' except by education?
as mentioned above we also need to change attitudes to obesity. My GP told me I am slim. I am actually right at the top edge of "normal" BMI pushing towards overweight and at least a stone overweight. I am 1.5 stone heavier now than when I came back from my big bike ride
Cooking, running a family budget, taxes, credit cards, critical thinking, online safety…
Again all covered at the schools I have taught at for the last 20 years.....like I said you cannot put in what the parents leave out.
How are you supposed to foster a ‘less obesogenic environment’ except by education?
Regulation and measures to tackle poverty. You can't educate yourself to a less obesogenic environment.
How are you supposed to foster a ‘less obesogenic environment’ except by education?
Presumably it relates to his previous statement
Obesity is mostly a disease of poverty. That’s where we need to start.
If you’re poor you are starting at a disadvantage and education and moving more isn’t going to help;
There is a strong association between deprivation and obesity in children. This is in line with recently published evidence that states that obesity levels in children are likely to be higher in areas where low income families reside. In 2021/22, the prevalence of obesity in children in the most deprived areas was more than double the value in the least deprived areas. This is true both for children in Reception and in Year 6.
Apologies for butting in @Kramer
A lot of this thread smacks of middle class privileged people thinking that the thing that makes them middle class is their knowledge rather than the fact that they've got more money.
How do people feel about enforcing calorie information on restaurant
Works for me. If i am in two minds, i will go with the lower calorie item. Or i will be put off by something if its has a crazy calorie count.