[Closed] What are we teaching our kids?

Overblown.

But also, the baseline of what merits detention seems to have changed a lot over the years. I think I only ever got them from one teacher ever.

My son gets loads and our default position is incredulity at the trivial nature of the offence,: not having shirt tucked in, forgetting a book etc

They seem to use them a lot more

Seems harsh, but it all does nowadays compared to back in days of yore for us lot. My kids' school is heavily focussed on uniform and equipment compliance. My daughter forgot a book for a lesson and got a detention. Most detentions are for skirt rolling though.

Seems a little excessive for a careless mistake, but what other sanction is available or be appropriate?

Detention for uniform, forgetting stuff etc was around 35 years ago. Never did me any harm.....😎

I wouldn't expect a grown-up to have to deal with such pettiness.

Ignorance is no plee but exceptence of an easy mistake is also for adults. Sounds like teacher took a position and as is common with positions of authority feels unable to back down and now the school has to back their (the teacher's) position.

Depends on the age - if she is yr 7 or 8, then probably unfair. If, however, she is yr 9 + I would say it is reasonable to be punished. After all, she should be working in art class, not scribbling on bits of paper. And why was she doing it on top of someone's work? Was she not at her desk? Did the other student put it there?

Assuming it was entirely an accident/ignorance and your daughter's 'drawing on a scrap of paper with an ink pen' was a legitimate part of the art class, then surely the consequence here (I'm a firm believer in consequences) is an apology.

If on the other hand she was dossing around and her attitude towards participation in the class resulted in this issue, then with the combination it seems fair enough.

If on the other hand she was dossing around

It was art class...

It was art class…

Tory

we aim to treat students in a grown up fashion

That did make me laugh. Try punishing an employee for something so petty and see how long it is before they walk in with the union rep and file a complaint for harrassment. In fact the whole letter is laughable and best ignored - but filed safely away because whoever wrote that is setting themselves up for a fall.

Just ignore the stupid ****ers and tell your daughter that she'll have to deal with arse holes all her life so she may as well get used to dealing with them now. I'm an ex-teacher, most of my colleagues were normal sensible human beings, one or two were certifiable, strangely they seemed to rise to positions of power or aspired to.

Tory

Stalinist!

The school should be telling the wronged student that it will prepare her for a lifetime of other people ****ing up your perfectly good work. As if the corporate world is as petty as that (well, mine isn't). Mark her work down a grade and be done with it.

the punishment fits the crime #Nopudding

It was art class…

Fair point, succinct.

Back in my day detentions were for possession of a knife or drilling through your mates pencil case in woodwork or painting knob on your mates back or attaching crocodile clips to a teacher or filling your mates homework book with pictures of penises or smoking when you should be digging a duck pond or walking the entire cross country route or not bothering coming back from the cross country route or making teachers cry. You know that kind of thing 🤷🏻‍♂️

Back in my day detentions were for possession of a knife or drilling through your mates pencil case in woodwork or painting knob on your mates back or attaching crocodile clips to a teacher or filling your mates homework book with pictures of penises or smoking when you should be digging a duck pond or walking the entire cross country route or not bothering coming back from the cross country route or making teachers cry. You know that kind of thing

Or blowing the exhaust off the head of musics Saab with a large firework.

But nooo, now that'd get you raided by the antiterror police instead of two weeks of detention.

I don't like to accuse but is your daughter being totally honest about what happened, seems a bit strong from the teacher but it's not like children never bend the truth.

Seems unfair for an accident but, from having two kids who have now made their way through primary & most of secondary, we learnt to pick your battles where the school was involved....probably would have passed on this one.

Back in my day detentions were for possession of a knife or drilling through your mates pencil case in woodwork or painting knob on your mates back or attaching crocodile clips to a teacher or filling your mates homework book with pictures of penises or smoking when you should be digging a duck pond or walking the entire cross country route or not bothering coming back from the cross country route or making teachers cry. You know that kind of thing

Thanks for that little bit of lunchtime nostalgia!

Thanks for that little bit of lunchtime nostalgia!

I was thinking more.....

Teachers learn to pick their battles too, Nuke, or most do. When a parent questions a punishment it can be a good opportunity to get them on board whereas the tone and intransigence in that reply is a provocation that turns a potential ally into an adversary.

Back in my day detention was for softies. Making an extra-curricular mark would have gotten the board-rubber thrown at head, or else pulled-up bent-over front of class to get a running-strike from the board-rule.

Detention seems harsh if it was an accident and not a deliberate sabotage of someone else's work. However who knows what rules teachers are playing by these days. In my day I would have had a bollocking off the teacher involving a good shouting at and maybe sit in the corner for the rest of the class. in this day and age maybe shouting at the kids is not allowed as it causes too much upset or loud noises might cause PTSD or something so the only course of action is detention or something like that. I think the child (assuming it was a child) should have been disciplined as they need to be made aware of things like this and made to consider things in future....kids don't always remember or listen to a adult-like conversation pointing out the wrongs of what they did. Young children are wired differently and need to be told as unambiguously as possible.

Tough one without knowing the circumstances. If it were my kid I'd probably let it lie, reinforce the teacher in telling her to be more careful in future. When we hand our kids over to schools we are trusting them and should give them the benefit of the doubt - they are not going to deal with every situation in the same way you would. I know from many friends who are teachers that interfering parents complaining and trying to intervene in everything the teachers do is one of the biggest challenges and de-motivating factors teachers face - especially in front of the kids as it just undermines the authority of the teachers in the kids eyes. If you want that much control over your kids then maybe home school them. Teachers are bound to get it wrong sometimes so sometimes parents just need to bite their lip and leave them to it. Obviously if a consistent pattern of worrying behaviour emerges then speak up, but for one off isolated events best just to leave it.

How much ink do you have to draw on a bit of paper before it seeps through and marks something beneath? (IANAAS) Is the other girl a friend, and what was the work?

I find it really sad that a teacher cant make a judgement on something without a parent wanting to jump in and question their authority. Its a detention. You have made no mention of any other issues such as bullying etc. In the grand scheme of things it is nothing. Your daughter did something wrong which upset a fellow student and spoiled her work and you have no knowledge of her behaviour at the time, the day before or maybe even over a period of time. Even if it is a little heavy handed. A lesson to your daughter that sometimes there are consequences to actions isn't the worst lesson to learn. Let your daughter learn her lesson and stop undermining the teacher is my advice.

After all, she should be working in art class, not scribbling on bits of paper.

3/10 could troll better.

What are we teaching our kids?

That actions have consequences. Sometimes unintended and unpleasant ones.

Stalinist!

Someone has to paint the tractors

Let your daughter learn her lesson and stop undermining the teacher is my advice

Authority should always be questioned. There is no authority if you have to rely on "I'm the boss" type arguments.

That actions have consequences. Sometimes unintended and unpleasant ones

Disproportionate ones, at that, too.

Get her to blow up a tin of paint in the Rural Studies class - (they have Rural Studies class, right?) and see what punishment she gets - seems like a full, conventional "shock and awe" strike might be on the cards. Maybe limited nuclear if it's not magnolia or puce...

Authority should always be questioned. There is no authority if you have to rely on “I’m the boss” type arguments.

That's just bobbins. Question it if you feel it's justified, but not as a default.

Authority should always be questioned. There is no authority if you have to rely on “I’m the boss” type arguments.

Rubbish. I deleted everything else I was about to post because...

Question it if you feel it’s justified, but not as a default.

Let your daughter learn her lesson and stop undermining the teacher is my advice.

The lesson is that some teachers are exceptionally petty and there's not much you can do about it.

The lesson is that some teachers are exceptionally petty and there’s not much you can do about it.

I think the lesson is that we shouldn't be judgemental based on a snapshot of events - if we weren't there, how can we say someone's being petty? This isn't a slight on Trailwagger's daughter, you understand - two people can witness the same event and have entirely different interpretations of it.

I don't think it's an ideal course of action, if the kid's version of events is true.

But

If a particular teacher made that judgement call at that particular time, you cannot conclude that we, as a society, are teaching all our kids a particular set of values. There's more than just one kid and more than one teacher. And the teachers do not all speak for each other.

wait a minute I thought that kids had never had it so easy?

(sounds overblown by the teacher to me, also, why was the other pupils art left out)

I cant see the teacher backing down tho, Id just roll with it, the lesson here is that sometimes life isnt fair

and detention isnt all bad

That’s just bobbins. Question it if you feel it’s justified, but not as a default

If you can't justify yourself to a satisfactory level you have no authority.

The issue is, what one person considers satisfactory another won't. Especially when someone's kids are involved.

Also, sometimes things are not ok, even if you don't mean to do them. See 'driving without due care and attention' in the law books.

Sounds reasonable to me if the other students work was coursework (even if not). A detention isn't exactly end of the world, it's just time after all that can be spent doing homework etc, maybe she'll be more careful around other students work next time....

Detentions seem to be the only authority teachers are left with nowdays.

Depends on the age – if she is yr 7 or 8, then probably unfair. If, however, she is yr 9 + I would say it is reasonable to be punished. After all, she should be working in art class, not scribbling on bits of paper. And why was she doing it on top of someone’s work? Was she not at her desk? Did the other student put it there?

This. ☝ Too many unknown variables. "But dad, I was only... so unfair... !"

This made me laugh though:

we must remember ‘ignorance is no plea’.”

If ignorance was no plea they wouldn't need to be in bloody school learning things. Its a child in an art class not The Accused in a court of law.

also, why was the other pupils art left out

But we don't know the full story - was it left out? Or had the OPs daughter gone over to the other student's desk and started drawing on top of the work? Or had she taken the work from the other student's desk altogether?

Fondly remembers starting a thread over 10 years ago, with my son being accused of racism by his primary school teacher. Wonderful times 😀

Also, sometimes things are not ok, even if you don’t mean to do them. See ‘driving without due care and attention’ in the law books.

A common prosecution amongst schoolchildren.

I think the lesson is that we shouldn’t be judgemental based on a snapshot of events – if we weren’t there, how can we say someone’s being petty?

True, but the school's response didn't seem to contradict her account of what happened.

True, but the school’s response didn’t seem to contradict her account of what happened.

Perhaps they were trying to stop it escalating into a 'they said/she said' argument.

I once got detention for drawing on the front of a schoolbook despite the teacher doing it (the whole class saw her do it as she was marking the work). But I couldn't argue it - she just denied it and gave me detention. She was mad as a box of frogs and was eventually dismissed for apparently doing some French polishing in a store cupboard with a 6th former.

What are we teaching our kids?

The fact that life is tough, that there are consequences to everything we do in this life, and that there is a minefield of unwritten social norms to try and understand?

Sorry OP, not enough information and that information is from one (biased) source.

I've been scalded by the biased information my kids told me before. I've a healthy scepticism now, and perhaps because I work with them daily, a healthy respect for teachers.

You would be very unwise not to take your kids seriously until proved otherwise, Matt. As for "biased", most of his opening post is the school's version. It will be most amusing if the school person who wrote it copy/pastes the text into Google and finds this thread. That used to work quite well but as the Internet has grown browsers aren't quite as effective as they used to be. I tried the last sentence and it throws up this thread as first result, but then Google knows my preferences.

.

Unless we haven't got the full story, I'd have dealt with that by way of a conversation about respect for others work and being careful when working in an art room (I'm an art teacher). Probably from the 'How would you feel if that was your work?' angle.

IME in most cases of 'minor' issues, a conversation has more effect than a sanction which tends to just foster contempt. Every teacher needs to read Paul Dix's work on this IMO. Teachers and schools have a tendency to impose sanctions to make them feel better about poor behaviour rather than in any attempt to understand or prevent that behaviour.

Trailwagger....... You mind me asking, how old is Daughter No.2?

How would you feel if that was your work?

Maybe they already asked that? It was clear from the OP that the other student was upset by what happened so it does sound like there is more to it than a simple accident when someone was just scribbling on a piece of paper that just happened to accidentally be on top of someone else's work.

You would be very unwise not to take your kids seriously until proved otherwise, Matt. 

No fricking way are you an ex-teacher. 🤣

Did you not tell them it’s Inktober?

Perhaps they were trying to stop it escalating into a ‘they said/she said’ argument.

If they didn't want to escalate it they shouldn't have given her a detention!

Back when I was at school that would have got me the belt (tawse)

Its always funny reading school threads on here

Oooh I know! Turn it on it's head and sue the other student for copyright infringement.

Back when I was at school that would have got me the belt (tawse)

That used to be the default punishment up until the mid 80's
The last person to get the belt before it was banned at my primary school was James Lark.

I think the op posting under the title what are we teaching our kids is a bit of an over reaction. Which isn't to say that those involved haven't been upset or that there isn't a genuine issue, just that jumping from a single incident to judgements about the state of education in general is almost always unjustified.

No fricking way are you an ex-teacher.

Well I don't teach anymore and have no intention of doing so again.

It's important that when kids turn to their parents for help that they are taken seriously. Kids can have all sorts of issues at school and your first reaction should be to listen carefully to them. If it warants contacting the school do so with discretion and tact. I'm also a father and very pleased I took junior seriously even when what he was saying seemed far fetched. It was entirely accurate, the school acted as necessary on the information.

I wouldn't have bothered to query a detention over some scribling but I do find the school a bit OTT both in the initial punishment and the tone of the reply to the OP - to the point of finding it laughable. But then whether a teacher or a parent or both you live through a lot of laughable things that are school related. The day you stop finding them laughable is the day to quit and find another job.

Paul Dix who's main reference is himself. It all seems reasonable on the surface but it's a bit culty. Watch anything by him and note how many times he talks about himself. His method works if everyone does it, a single questioning voice or slip will cause it all to crumble. Your fault not his.
Sorry I don't like the fad not all of it is bad but not all of it is possible.

If they didn’t want to escalate it they shouldn’t have given her a detention!

So bad behaviour should go unpunished?

Sorry I don’t like the fad not all of it is bad but not all of it is possible.

Absolutely. Totally agree that to do it exactly his way is an all or nothing approach and not practical in most real world contexts. I still think most teachers could learn something from reading his stuff as long as they don't take it purely as an instruction manual.

I do believe that it's possible to extract from his (and other similar) ideas a core set of principles that can be usefully applied to more pragmatic school contexts. As a Head of Year I've had interesting and positive results from some less 'opressive' pilots using an adaptation of his approach. Seeing some interesting stuff now coming out of primaries using a 'no sanction/no reward' approach that I'm trying to see how I could potentially apply in a secondary setting.

Was it bad behaviour? If we are to believe both the daughter and school, which I do as their accounts concord then there was no intention to behave badly. Intent is very important in both criminal law and school discipline.

Should it go unpunished? I wasn't there so I can't answer that, it would depend on:

Previous behaviour and attitude in class
Whether any remorse was shown and whether an apology (preferably spontaneous) was made to the owner of the damaged work.

But hopefully find a way out that was going to create minimum shit and bad blood. There's enough shit to deal with in teaching without voluntarily producing more.

Ah, detentions. I remember the RE teacher getting the head of year to give me detention for not going to the class. I didn’t go to detention either. My reasoning being if I didn’t go to the class itself when I was supposed to, why on earth would I turn up for detention relating to a class I wouldn’t attend and outside of school hours. Lunacy and utterly illogical. Can’t actually recall what happened as a result though. Whatever it was, it will not have been taken very seriously.

Those saying don’t question authority, why not? Questioning things is always good. Doesn’t have to be done aggressively. Obeying for the sake of it, not so much.

OP’s case sounds a bit heavy handed if his daughter is being honest. Surely an apology would’ve sufficed if it was indeed an accident. Letter sounds quite pompous too. Treated as a grown up, right. Can’t recall getting detention in my adult life, having sanctions against me or being punished for anything because that would be ****ing absurd.

‘no sanction/no reward’

When I can't catch my horse because its in a lush field and doesn't feel like going out I can either round it up with a stick (which requires two people) or offer it corn. With neither a stick nor a few corn cobs I may as well give up on the idea of riding, go home and make tea.

^have you tried detention on the horse to teach it a valuable life lesson that it can take in to equine adulthood?

Interesting: At my school, detention was seen as a really serious thing. If you got three of them in one term you were expelled.

Still trying to determine the age of Daughter No.2.

I think people might raise an eyebrow if my suspicions are correct.

have you tried detention on the horse

No, he's bigger than me. The last time Madame annoyed him he bit her bum a week later. They're friends again now.

... we must remember ‘ignorance is no plea’.”

What does the STW folk think? Reasonable or totally overblown?

Sounds like they would like:

1. A response clarifying the difference between mens rea and actus rea.
2. Pointing out that even in cases where strict liability applies, ignorance IS a plea (in mitigation) and so it shouldn't automatically follow that the same punishment applies for a mistake and a calculated culpable action.
3. Any punishment applied by the state (which a school is an agent of) should only follow a fair tribunal (article 6 of the human rights act); and various sections of the UN rights of the child - including especially the section on punishment in schools.

Of course if there was malice involved, she had been warned and was careless, or was really being punished for mucking about not doing work then it may well be justified; but if it’s a total accident then it would appear that if the school want to argue “consequences have actions” then they probably need to consider that “sanctions should have right of appeal” too.

Mumsnet called, they want their thread back...

Also, sometimes things are not ok, even if you don’t mean to do them. See ‘driving without due care and attention’ in the law books.

A common prosecution amongst schoolchildren.

True, but around our area it was usually well down the list - twocing, driving without a licence, driving underage, criminal damage etc were usually first.

5.20 am and I am getting up to get in early to sort out an after school altercation between pupils having read emails after a meeting which occurred after an extended day to stagger children in.
Soon with enough students isolating you will be able to watch the lesson live with your child at home, yes this really is the plan.

30 students version of fair in a lesson, plus webcams WFH parents version will be the answer to such "was the detention fair" threads. In future we can all post up the incident. It might even replace "Is this a crack?" thread.

When I can’t catch my horse because its in a lush field and doesn’t feel like going out I can either round it up with a stick (which requires two people) or offer it corn. With neither a stick nor a few corn cobs I may as well give up on the idea of riding, go home and make tea.

Wilful misunderstanding of the concept as it might apply to education just for the sake of a debate? Surely not?

So bad behaviour should go unpunished?

What bad behaviour?

By 'eck @wally.

Don't challenge the school let them do their job.

Discipline may have been issued due to a culmination of a number of eye rolling incidents or something else that is wearing on someone that has to put up with 30 kids being dicks all day.

If she is beyond inconsolable or she is put in a terms worth of detention then have a chat but don't seek to challenge, seek to understand and to support the schools actions.

My detentions were an invaluable resource for me, they taught me so much about how not to get caught and how to be mindful of what I did and when.

A kid who has someone to fight their battles for them will learn nothing.

Still trying to determine the age of Daughter No.2.

she is 11

she is 11

Furnished with that information (and as I said way back when) I think the punishment seems unfair assuming we have the full story – I assume she is in her first term of secondary school so she will be still finding her feet, as will the other child. I have two daughters of the same age and I would be very surprised if their school reacted like that.

Ask, "what's more important, the piece of work or my child's emotional and social wellbeing and education?"

I'm a teacher and sometimes, well often, things go wrong by accident in the classroom.

What you do is teach the importance of saying sorry, receiving an apology gracefully, moving on and learning from mistakes made.

Instead, this is teaching what we should do is assume there's motive behind something being damaged, escalate a situation, punishment, involve others, install a blame culture and extend the whole "incident".

This has possibly happened because another parent has complained about precious Tabitha's work being damaged and the teacher being too weak to say accidents happen, they apologised, move on.

This teacher sounds incompetent at classroom control and conflict resolution. Book a meeting or phone call with them (or even a senior leader if they've really upset your kid), have points similar to those above lined up, do it calmly and start open ended with the approach. For example, "I have concerns over how conflict is being handled in my child's classroom. Could you clarify to me what should happen if a piece of child's work suffers minor accidental damage?"

Then when you hear, apology, acceptance, move on, etc then explain what happened, how it is clearly wrong and against good practice, damaging to your child's education and mental health.

Explain that if this happens again then you'll be complaining officially, that you've recorded this incident and taken notes.

Shot across the bows. If they're so weak and angry that they start punishing children for minor accidents then they need to back off your child!