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I live in an area where many parents are sending their kids to schools in the top 20 by academic performance in the country - five or six of them are an easy journey. Hopefully they are good schools, but the primary driver for their results is the competition to get places which is brutal often more than ten to one. The kids who get in are always going to get excellent results, although many have a bit of shock having been superstars previously, now they are just "average".
I can’t believe the number of people getting the causality the wrong way round. People don’t gain confidence from going to a private school.
I did. More specifically, it was via the Cadets that taught me that confidence.
Generally I kept my head down, was never especially social or outgoing and while I was confident enough in my academic abilities, I wasn't great at sports like football - you don't really gain a lot of confidence from being picked last every time. Where I did far better was outdoors/teamwork stuff that the cadets offered and also the more individual or small group sports. I was very good at fives (interestingly less good at squash!).
Without those opportunities, I'd probably just have kept my head down to avoid being bullied for wearing glasses and being a swot.
A neighbour has just had his 4yr old son expelled from a private school at £14k/year after 3 weeks as his son has quite bad ADHD they the school had no ability (or will) to manage it.
Not uncommon, most people who have kids who need serious special needs support end up in the state system round here. Many of the private schools have selection at 4 so they avoid the issue, but others manage the kids out because they are too demanding of resources.
Not uncommon, most people who have kids who need serious special needs support end up in the state system round here.
Makes perfect commercial sense for the Private school, why would they want anyone who takes up extra resources for no benefit for the school (other than being inclusive). Just kick out any trouble makers at the first sign of not fitting in.
Just a bit ironic that the poorly funded state school actually provides more resources....
You want to give her the best chances of having a childhood in which she interacts and socialises only with wealthy people.
The best chance to become overly confident and to struggle to empathise with or relate to the vast majority of people who haven’t received a private school education.
Dont push your own narrow minded views on to your kids. Everything you say above is about parenting not schooling
Look more at what opportunities you can give them and bringing up well rounded kids
Whilst tj says tongue firmly in cheek:
tongue firmly in cheek – which is worse – being bullied for being a posh smart kid in the comp or being bullied for being the poor oik in the fee paying school?
I actually think he's kind of right, especially when you consider what TiRed said:
Teenage girls can be very cruel.
Oh, and analysis from an old friend who moved from teaching in fairly rough glasgow school to pretty good private school - "the main difference is the quality of the drugs the pupils are using!"
The whole selection process, whether through cash or testing, is at the rotten heart of the UK's education system. Until it's lottery and you go where you're assigned this society will remain riven with difficulties.
Having said that, I trained my kids to pass the 11+ and got them into the best state grammar school in the country. I didn't want them to have the low working class horizons I saw and that was the only way I could give them any chance of a middle class trajectory. One is now most of the way to being a doctor, the other following close behind. No-one from the estate comp I went to would have dreamed of doing those things.
Look more at what opportunities you can give them and bringing up well rounded kids
I think the point may have been that going to an elitist school may not produce the well rounded part...
Dont push your own narrow minded views on to your kids. Everything you say above is about parenting not schooling
Look more at what opportunities you can give them and bringing up well rounded kids
The whole point of private school education is to allow people to pass on a set of attitudes to their kids. Which is why I think they should be abolished.
The whole selection process, whether through cash or testing, is at the rotten heart of the UK’s education system. Until it’s lottery and you go where you’re assigned this society will remain riven with difficulties.
The UK doesn't have one education system. Scotland is closer to what you describe - default position is you go to the local school (but there is a private market, people who suddenly remember their catholic faith (or renounce it!), and people buying houses to get in the catchment area). Interesteingly:
No-one from the estate comp I went to would have dreamed of doing those things.
I may be wrong but I don't think there will be a single secondary school in Scotland that hasn't produced doctors, vets, or dentists etc. However, I suspect that opportunity still doesn't reach everyone equally based on their aptitude rather than their inheritance.
Both of mine go to Kent State Grammars - one superselective, and generally in the top 10 state schools of the year.
We gave them the choice. I could have afforded private, but it would have meant going back to full time. My son was offered an 80% academic scholarship at a local private. He chose the grammar. I went to a fee paying grammar (Assisted Places Scheme, so full govt scholarship) and my wife went to a Girls Private. I became an RAF Officer, she is a city lawyer.
We have friends in all camps, and there is no one right answer. A good state is better than a poor private, but over all private gives smaller cases, more choice of subjects, better facilities and lots more extra curricular.
It really depends on what your kids want. Not all are really mature enough by 11 to fully know what they really want.
The whole point of private school education is to allow people to pass on a set of attitudes to their kids
Please outline them so I can stop my son displaying them.
I would say that you have been passed on a set of attitudes too.
I went to an independent, arguably the best performing one in the county, but that is not saying much really. I do know that it was the only one I could get a scholarship too and, as such, was cheap enough that my parents could afford to send me.
Was it a good education? Yes. Did it give me a more rounded education than the local state school? Well, I had access to the CCF and got to see the world with a French exchange program, not sure the local comp would have given me that. They did have better athletics facilities though, we had a better sports field.
Did I enjoy it there? no, not really. I was not sporty enough to be in with the sports crowd and only really properly good at chemistry, so not clever enough to be in with the academic kids. So yeah, I got picked on and a bit bullied. I didn't really get the grades my mother was hoping for either, so maybe that was a disappointment to her as well. I don't even really keep in touch with anyone from then, or take part in the events either so, even if there is an old boys' network, I'm not part of it.
I survived. That's all that really matters
A better all round education and higher aspirations.
Heat resistant buttocks
Both mine in small private school which has limted connections, the perception that all private schools are Eton is soooo wide of the mark. Most of them, like ours, have a range of parents some of whom struggle to make fees, and others are minted beyond belief.
There is one common denominator. They all care and want their kids to do well.
To me the benefits/drawbacks in summary, as also covered by others, are:
Pro's
1) Smaller class sizes (although not always)
2) Good kids/parents so a lack of class clowns/disturbances, not that we don't get them but it can also be dealt with quickly.
3) Leads to more curriculum coverage as they go at faster pace.
4) Which in turn leads to more opportunities to do extra stuff, and more academic stuff
5) Exposure to higher aspirations, almost every kid is planning Uni and career etc.
Cons
1) The teaching is lazy, kids basically work and teach themsleves, which means if your kid is struggling you might not get anything like the support you would in state sector. ( we are astounded at the lack of input and support from some of our teachers and the head will never ever take the parents side, appearances are all)
2) Despite common conceptions most private schools have less resources than state sector, although this does not appear to hold them back
3) Ours and most other private schools with an entrance exam system are essentially filtering systems. If your kid is struggling to make the grade, in the end they boot you out. They do not want kids entering for exams that will reduce their grade averages. In state this is illegal and is called off rolling - a teacher in the state sector was recently disciplined for doing exactly this. In private its their raison d'etre.
They might also not really warn you so that they can keep your money as long as possible, we know of kids ejected at the end of year nine, which is despicable in my opnion.
This means good results does not equal good teaching, it just means they will never enter anyone for an exam who will not get excellent grades. So do not be fooled by this. It may well be helpful to your kid if they are smart and hard working, but if they are a bit off base then be prepared for some crap...
4) Huge pressure to work and do well at exams/coursework/extra curricalr etc. Ours have dealt with this perfectly so far, but some kids find it tough and the school does not give a damn.
5) Eltism in sport - if your kid loves footy or hockey but is crap, they will get dropped and be made to do "games", as the sports results are probably more important for appearances than the academic results. Our PE teachers are wannabe world beaters and do not help kids who need skills development.In fact calling them teachers is a bit of a stretch. This is a mega suck for me and I despise the school because of it. Not all private skools are like this, so have a carefull look at this if its important to you. My oldest has basically lost interest in physical activity because of it, defo hates team sports and is only saved by MTB. My youngest is a sports superstar and thinks the school is amazing because of all the sport oppourtinities, tours, competitions, awards etc. Ironic.
6) Some low level bullying over class/appearances/riches, Teslas and Range Rovers vs old reliable jap cars of the working parents, but has been generally dealt with well.
7) 75% of parents are tory and quite right wing. Some of the kids have ridiculous prejudices, especially against working class and poor people. Our head is gay and meets the stereotype of queer conservative. Quite a suprisingly intolerant person. Quite alot of the kids at school do not fit 1980's boy/girl sterotypes and all of them despise the head, even though heads sexuality is open and well known. This gives me hope as so many of them you would also expect to be right wing like their parents but are not.
However be open minded, one of my best parent friends is very very wealthy and is the nicest most generous man, who implements worker share ownership in his factories and offices. He inherited all his wealth. He also has a James Bond esque car collection which is a lot of fun to look at.
8) Daft school trips. 8 grand to go to South America during a global pandemic? All run by an external company, teachers do eff all except go along for a free holiday.
Over all, in our area, I think we are better off in private, but be prepared to make your kid work hard to keep their place and help them to understand the inequity they will get exposed to.
So just to get this straight, if I send my daughter to fee-paying school she'll be a well rounded, better educated, self entitled drug user.... Glad we cleared that up lol
@5plusn8 that is a very helpful post - thank you.
So just to get this straight, if I send my daughter to fee-paying school she’ll be a well rounded, better educated, self entitled drug user
on average
*Klaxon warning* anecdote is not evidence, small sample size, self selecting sample and so on but:
the folk I know the one that went to state schools are all well rounded empathic people, the ones that went to some form of private school all have some form of emotional stunting
No-one from the estate comp I went to would have dreamed of doing those things.
Weird, because I went to a shit comp in the 80s/90s and one of my mates became a doctor.
3) Ours and most other private schools with an entrance exam system are essentially filtering systems. If your kid is struggling to make the grade, in the end they boot you out. They do not want kids entering for exams that will reduce their grade averages. In state this is illegal and is called off rolling – a teacher in the state sector was recently disciplined for doing exactly this. In private its their raison d’etre.
I wouldn't assume it doesn't happen in state schools. It certainly did back in the early 90s - they wouldn't boot you out back then, they just strongly encouraged your to look at less academic options which weren't part of the league tables! From what I've seen more recently I think its more likely to be "we think Johnny might benefit more from the curriculum at [the further education college]*" *other get them off our plate options exist!
I can’t believe the number of people getting the causality the wrong way round. People don’t gain confidence from going to a private school.
I think there's a certain type of confidence that it engenders. I have 2 friends that went to private school (that I know of). They're not typical 'private school' types - both northerners, one was Bolton School like another poster here, and his 3 younger siblings all went to state schools! You wouldn't really guess that they went to private school, although they're both clearly intelligent and well-educated.
But get them engaged in a proper discussion, and suddenly this absolutely bulletproof intellectual confidence pops up. I don't know if it's a debating society thing, but in terms of arguing a point, these are the only 2 people I know that will never, ever, ever say 'oh, perhaps I've misunderstood / got the wrong end of the stick / etc'. It's very odd. But it's an absolute unshakeable confidence, which doesn't necessarily extend to other aspects of their personalities. I'm convinced it's a private school thing.
There is one common denominator. They all care and want their kids to do well.
Aye, only a caring parent would send their kids to a right-wing incubator where they're liable to be bullied based on the type of car owned by their parents.
Great way to equip a child for a happy and content life.
Stiff upper lip and all that.
Quite a typical STW thread this is turning out to be. 70% healthy debate and sharing of views and experience, 30% stereotypical name calling pointlessness.
Yes, I think the OP has got the answers he was seeking so the thread is about due to spiral off into irrelevance.
To that end, at the private schools I attended boys were never bullied for what car their parents drove, which is just as well because at the end of term the stream of cars coming up the drive at my school would be Range Rover, Range Rover, Range Rover, 10-year old custard yellow Ford Escort with kitchen foil over the radiator, Range Rover, Range Rover...
Weird, because I went to a shit comp in the 80s/90s and one of my mates became a doctor.
Weird that someone had a different experience to you? That's weird. Congratulations to your friend, well done.
Aye, only a caring parent would send their kids to a right-wing incubator where they’re liable to be bullied based on the type of car owned by their parents.
Great way to equip a child for a happy and content life.
Stiff upper lip and all that.
Do you think nobody at a state school has ever been bullied for anything as daft? Worse, doing well academically, has been grounds for bullying throughout time at many state schools (presumably less so in private?), meaning that able kids can actually find its easier not to try too hard and keep below the radar.
I went to a private boarding school.
We had:
Austin Maestro - Moss green.
Austin Maestro - mushroom over fawn.
Vauxhall Astra L - Was once silver.
No one noticed or gave a shit except me.
Morris Marina, faded blue. Utterly shit car.
that is a very helpful post – thank you.
I would add that it is extraordinary how important the head is, far more important than the history or reputation of the school.
I wouldn't worry about the car thing, they don't own them.
So just to get this straight, if I send my daughter to fee-paying school she’ll be a well rounded, better educated, self entitled drug user
on average
The great thing about population statistics is they're very good as describing populations.
However, they're next to useless at describing individuals!
Aye, only a caring parent would send their kids to a right-wing incubator where they’re liable to be bullied based on the type of car owned by their parents.
Great way to equip a child for a happy and content life.
Stiff upper lip and all that.
Astonishing how bias works in all directions.
Another one with a mate from a comprehensive who ended up as a doctor.
Aye, only a caring parent would send their kids to a right-wing incubator where they’re liable to be bullied based on the type of car owned by their parents.
I'd love to see your research on this topic.
I’d love to see your research on this topic.
There's plenty of research to show how private education imbues certain attitudes and values: British Social Attitudes
"Put another way, if this was a ‘snapshot’ opinion poll among people who attended fee-paying schools, the Conservatives would hold a 31 point lead over Labour. Conversely, Labour would lead the Conservatives by 10 points among state-educated respondents."
Or you could just take a look around you at British society in general.
Both of my kids go to a fee paying school now. The eldest started off at a state school until year 4 when we moved him over.
The difference for us is the smaller classes, the variety and range of subjects in their education, the extra curricular activities on offer and the sporting offering. So basically the whole education is approached differently.
I’m under no illusion that this will open any doors for them or make them more employable in any way but as my dad said to me, “if you can afford to do it why wouldn’t you.”
I went to state school and have done ok so would also be happy with them at a decent state school but having now seen the difference it would be hard to move them back.
Worrying about cars is very non-U
Do you think nobody at a state school has ever been bullied for anything as daft?
I got bullied for having second hand (older brothers) trousers amongst other things. If I'm honest, my school kinda sucked. But I was never going to a fee paying place - see second hand trousers for reasons.
I'm rather pleased that both the local state schools seem to be quite good, a lot better than mine was.
I had the pleasure of both. I went to a local state school & it was an absolute dump. I had a good group of friends though & we were generally left alone as we were safe, middle ground, rather than targets for the hard of thinking.
I did witness some spectacular levels of violence, bullying, drug taking & harassment though. I thank my lucky stars none was aimed at me, as i'm surprised some of the kids actually made it through at points.
Then I got totally the other end of the scale. A sports scholarship to Millfield for 6th form. My parents probably could have afforded it (although it may have taken some belt tightening) & it was certainly an experience.
Some of the wealth/privilege was remarkable, as was some of the entitlement. Most were fairly normal kids born into a life they never really understood - some were so far removed from reality, it was bizarre. Relatively speaking, I of course was about as povvo as one could be there, but I didn't really get any stick for it (sports scholars were generally respected anyway, thankfully).
Didn't make any long term friends there, still waiting for the 'old boy network' to kick in, but despite that I made it out & into a (now) fairly senior role in a multinational company. Not sure that part of my education made that possible to be fair. Did however have an obscenely rich girlfriend, who is probably worth many hundreds of millions now who was bonkers - that was fun.
Both of my kids go to a fee paying school now. The eldest started off at a state school until year 4 when we moved him over.
The difference for us is the smaller classes, the variety and range of subjects in their education, the extra curricular activities on offer and the sporting offering. So basically the whole education is approached differently.
I’m under no illusion that this will open any doors for them or make them more employable in any way but as my dad said to me, “if you can afford to do it why wouldn’t you.”
I went to state school and have done ok so would also be happy with them at a decent state school but having now seen the difference it would be hard to move them back.
Thank for the post - greatly appreciated.
I think the 'old boy network' can work both ways, some employers like it, some don't.
I agree with all the stuff about peer groups, although had I stayed at State school, there wouldn't have been a problem for me as I make friends easily.
Grammer schools are not so entrenched as full public schools. They tend to have less boarders and more locals.
The public school I went too was miles ahead in terms of opportunity and facilities. Paying the school direct really does mean they can spend the money on what they want/what's needed straight away.
Having said that, academically, there is a state school near me which gets similar grades to the public school which cost £XX,XXX per year.
In your situation, with a scholarship, I would say go for it.
My local private school IS Eton and my neighbour has sent both of his son's there. By contrast my two sons attended the local comprehensive - Windsor Boy's School. Scholarships are available at Eton, particularly for sixth form, but we did not see the need as they were both very happy. The outcome post school education has been no different for either sets of siblings. In fact mine seem to have had a better experience (not boarding locally).
Mind you, I'm paying now (Dan knows why), and for the other studying for a second Masters after a year spent teaching in a lovely local prep school (with some famous parents and some very expensive cars).
I think the school probably matters more than the fee. Good schools are popular for a reason. Everywhere.
i would hope the benefits are not having to rub shoulders with the working and middle classes
Both our kids, now in their early 30's were partly privately educated. I was in the forces and before boarding school they went to state schools in Northern Ireland and Scotland and forces schools in Germany and Cyprus. Moving schools every couple of years was incredibly disruptive both for friendships/social development and school work. Every new school was on a different curriculum and they spent a lot of time either catching up or relearning stuff they had already done. Reluctantly we took the route of a boarding school from the age of about 14. The army paid the majority of the fees but we did have to pay a contribution and pay for the trips and extra curricular stuff.
My daughter thrived there but my son found it a little tougher to fit in initially. But they both gained confidence and threw themselves into the sport, CCF, drama, music, debating etc. The massive difference we noticed was the real culture of learning amongst the pupils as opposed to it being uncool to be clever and class disruption in some of their other schools. In their A level years we moved closer the school and I left the forces so they became day pupils and we paid the full whack. Some of the best money I've ever spent. My daughter is a vet and lecturer at Bristol university vet school and my son is a fraud investigator with HMRC!
I went to a fairly rubbish comprehensive with massive classes, low attainment/expectation, disruptive pupils and largely (with a couple of exceptions) indifferent and demotivated teachers. I hated it and couldn't wait to leave, which I did at 16 with a handful of O levels and CSEs. My real education came in a 2 year Army technical apprenticeship, but I do carry a bit of an inferiority complex about not going to uni (though it was far less of a given in the early 80s when I left school).
I do have some guilt about how our kids were educated. From the unfairness of it - how deep your (or your employer's) pockets are shouldn't determine the quality of education you can access. But when it's your own kids, selfishly perhaps you just want to do the very best for them that you can. I also didn't like the boarding aspect - sending them away was tough, but it was the only way with my career that they could get any continuity of education. But it undoubtedly gave them a kick start that will benefit them for the rest of their lives. I'm grateful for that.
Perhaps the most help is a sense of self confidence and belief. I spent my school years being told I could do anything and then being given examples of people who have done great things.
This is a huge one. I clearly remember being told we were in the top 1% of the country when it came to achievement, and I came out of school thinking I could do anything. There was never any doubt in my mind that I would go to university, get a decent job, etc. What it wasn't good for was making "rounded individuals" - it was an all-boys school, and while I can see the clear advantages from an academic point of view, it equally clearly doesn't help instil a healthy/normal understanding of the opposite sex.
I can't say I've benefited from the old boys' network, either, but then again I've lived and worked abroad all my adult life, and perhaps if I'd stayed in the UK it would have been something I could have used.
My own kids went to the Spanish equivalent of fee-paying grammar schools, and did their 6th form equivalent at a private school. The public state schools aren't bad, but it was more to do with me wanting to send them abroad for university and making sure they had decent internationally recognised qualifications for it. (Spanish universities aren't terrible, but neither are they that great...)
I was offered to go to Hutchesons at 14. I refused because the hutchie kids were basically dicks and the school didn’t have half the facilities of good old Hillpark
yeah but hutchy wasn't the most violent school in Scotland in 2009. I hate having to send middle kid to Hillpark. I'd hate to be a teacher there as well.
I went to a 'normal' primary and then to a public school for secondary.
A few things I noticed:
- Fannying around was not tolerated at all at the public school. There was a level of behaviour that was expected and was actually followed. No one ever spoke back to a staff member as there were real consequences.
- The catchment area of the public school was far bigger than the local comprehensive, and because of this I got to meet all sorts of new people. This to me was a huge plus.
- Facilities were better.
- Everyone had to wear exactly the same uniform. This to me was a good thing. Labels didn't get a look in.
- Recreational drug access was excellent. Apparently.
I don't know what schools are like now but it's a very unfair system. Like many systems in life I suppose.
I would add that it is extraordinary how important the head is, far more important than the history or reputation of the school.
I wouldn’t worry about the car thing, they don’t own them.
Thanks - yes the head is very proactive and encourages the kids to do their best.
He's also very approachable as we've now met with him 3 or 4 times.
When I dropped my daughter off for her exam it was upstairs - he took the time (unprompted as he remembered) to go down to the car to talk to my wife (paraplegic wheelchair user) to explain the process of the day and a general chat.
Not fussed about the car either - it's close enough for her to walk or catch the bus lol
Everything that @andykirk said a couple of posts up ^^ also applied to me / my schools.
The uniform thing changed in sixth form - still had to wear a suit and the house tie but more or less any plain non-denim shirt was OK so there was a bit of individuality.
Our daughter started at an all girls' day school this year, having been offered two scholarships for her secondary education.
Like a lot of parents, we got a little closer to our kids' learning through Lockdown and subsequent key worker school. The last 2 years of a very mixed primary school class (somewhat atypical of the school) wasn't stimulating our daughter at all. She was doing the work within minutes, then supporting the other kids.
We weren't unhappy and thought she'd be fine at any secondary school partly *because* of the wide social experience that the class gave her, but we were keen to get all the options on the table. So we entered her for assessments at several local private schools as well as a variety of state secondaries.
We reasoned that many of our peers were effectively buying education choices for their kids by moving to particular secondary schools' catchment areas. This isn't mentioned very often. We felt apathetic about moving house, and of course it comes with risks if our child(ren) hadn't gotten on with the new school. Nonetheless it does come with the bonus that you will probably get your money back if you buy a house in order to make this happen.
The benefits of private education for our daughter are so far academic and non-academic. I'm not personally bothered about getting the best grades, but I hugely value the academic stimulation and opportunities to try a wider range of subjects. This also goes for the non-academic side, where our daughter is now keen on sports that she might not have gotten into otherwise. There is a noticeable culture of expectation that you will find your talent, whatever that is.
We now need to decide what to do with our son...
Former state grammar school pupil here. Great, free education for me in the 80s. I was very academic and not sporty at all and it suited me well as the only sports on offer were cricket and rugby and I avoided both. My 3 kids are different to me and not all would have passed the 11 plus nor do we have any local grammar schools where I now live. They each went to a village state primary school until year 4 then private prep and private secondary. One now at Uni, one in lower sixth form and one just started GCSEs so I’m nearly at the end of it… I’d say they haven’t had as rigorous education as I got for free but they have had more opportunities, are more rounded, know a lot of people with connections that might help them down the line and - whilst I don’t have a double-blind test with identical twins to prove it - have achieved academically better than I think they would have at the local secondary.