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Hello All. Our Citroën C4 Grand Space Tourer went to our trusted garage for a service. They came back saying rhe wet belt is cracking and needs replacing ASAP. The car is a 2019 with a shade over 50k on the clock, but....the engine is a warranty replacement job and about 3 years old with about 30k after the first engine shat itself just after 20k miles (ingested one of its own spark plugs, apparently).
So, a 3 year old, 30k mile (in the car at least, who knows how "old" the engine actually is in terms of age, we were told it was a new engine, but ive heard that 2017-2020 batches were plaugued with belt failures before 30k) engine should absolutely not be showing signs of belt failure, that much is a given. But the question is, how likely are we to get amy goodwill from Citroën/Stellantis? The car never went back to the local main Citroën dealer after its warranty expired as they did a bit of a crap job with the refit, necessitating a trip further afield to another Citroën dealer after they buggered the cruise control after the refit, and the failure of its fordt MOT due to tangled brake hoses.
I popped into the new Citroën main dealer the other day to explain and the lad on the service desk saw a photo of the belt and said it "looks fine to me". Both my trusted garage amd his mate who specialises in wet belts said we're better off not driving the car. A case has been raised with Citroën from my end, but I'm expecting to be told they won't be any goodwill forthcoming. One thing they could have on me is that my garage used Total 0w20 oil on the first service, Shell Helix 0w30 on the second and Total 5w30 on the most recent... not that that would be the cause or even contributing factor in a wet belt cracking up after 30,000 miles.
Anyway, after all that, how much do you reckon they're gonna stiff us for? Reckon they'll show.any goodwill? Losing the car also buggered our holiday as we had to borrow the mother-in-law's car, meaningful we had to travel a lot lighter and leave the bikes at home. First world problems, I know.
*edit* trying to add the photo.... no joy. 🙄
It's a shite engine that. Wife's car has one. It's now drinking oil which is another common problem.
Regarding the oil, i believe the recommendation on oil weight has been changed several times. As long as it meets the Citroen spec I think you should be okay.
That said, good luck getting help from Citroen, ours was out of warranty, main dealer history and the dealers basically told us to go swivel, despite my wife's family having bought probably 10 new cars from them.
I think I'd be glad they found the damage before it killed the engine more than anything else.
Give the go ahead, get it sorted asap (it'll only take a day to actually fix) & you'll have it back in a few days.
We looking at a few wet-belt vehicles before changing ours & I think you just have to budget a replacement belt into the servicing cost every year or two.
If they're anything like Peugeot best of luck.
Took our car back the other day for a recall on a cam chain problem that seems to be happening from 50 000 miles.
They checked it and said it was fine.
Great doesn't need doing yet but not surprising as it's only done 30 00. Asked them if I could bring it back when it gets near to 50 000 miles and was told no it's been checked and they've fulfilled their obligations...
They did ask me if I could bring it in again though as they needed to change the oil, do an ECU update and put a new sticker on the engine as part of the check.
They had run out of sticker apparently but assured me the cam chain wouldn't break if they did these three things.
I left before I said something very rude to them.
Fyi - something I found whilst digging, no idea if it’s any use or will help
https://www.stellantis.com/en/contacts/puretech-compensation-platform
There's been loads of chat on here and elsewhere about wet belt problems. The one thing I took away from it all is that you really have to use the right oil, not just AN other oil of the recommended weight. There are apparently a bunch of additives in there that prevent cracking of the wet belt itself. I do wonder how many folk with issues have had services where the incorrect oil has been used. Saw a good YouTube video from a Ford specialist who was examining a failed engine that had a wet belt issue and a number of things (wrong oil, not replacing all of the wet belts when issues were found, etc.) resulted in the failure. Interesting one for sure. I've historically avoided dealer servicing on my cars (as I've seen some horror levels of not doing what they said they have), but I think I'd pay the premium for that with a wet belt engine just because of this issue.
Have had 2 cars with this engine both had to have the wet belts changed. A ‘65 plate C3 Picasso at 59k and an ‘18 plate C1 at 32k. The C3 had warning lights showing and went into limp mode, the C1 was a preventative strike as the belt was showing a few cracks. Both replacements cost about £600 and were carried out by a local independent. Sold the C3 soon after. Mrs Chop has still got the C1 and loves it. It sips fuel and has got plenty of poke for motorway driving.
Im in a 23 plate Toyota Hybrid now. Absolutely fantastic car. Getting 75mpg. I loved the C3 for its practicality but will never buy another French car.
Changed mine at 30k 6 years old.
Still looked like new. Got another 3 years to go on this belt.
Easy swap on the drive way hardest part was getting the bolts out the inlet blind. Took a half day having never done it before.
Not to be confused with the 1.5 diesel wet belt issue.
Stelantis really are having a mare with wet belts. Shame the 1.2 equipped 108/c1 is just a much more useful car than it's asthmatic 1l dihatsu engined counterpart.
Can't help on the mechanics of it, but my partner has dealt with multiple manufacturers' out of warranty assist depts as part of her career. If it's out of warranty, and you haven't had it serviced exclusively at a main dealer, I'd say your chances of getting any out of warranty assistance are unfortunately incredibly slim, unless there's a recall or legal care underway. Sorry.
Different wet belt car the so called "eco-boom" Focus.
Great car, came up to 10 years old and around 55k we had the belt done. It cost about £1200 including a full service.
Low mileage car that gets looked after. I reckon it's got an easy 5 years left.
Compare that to leasing a replacement...that's 3-4 months payments.
Back on yours if you've not used OEM spec oil I reckon you've got no hope with Citroen (and arguably that's fair because of the additives etc). There are possibly a range of weights that are fine but if they don't have the right additives the belt (and other stuff potentially) isn't getting protected. Maybe they did, may they didn't but that'll be hard to figure now.
Mildly related, but a colleague’s c3 has been issued with a stop drive notice (who knew that was a thing) and it’s understandably ****ed up her life, with no recompense apparently.
If they're anything like Peugeot best of luck.
Took our car back the other day for a recall on a cam chain problem that seems to be happening from 50 000 miles.
They checked it and said it was fine.
Great doesn't need doing yet but not surprising as it's only done 30 00. Asked them if I could bring it back when it gets near to 50 000 miles and was told no it's been checked and they've fulfilled their obligations...
They did ask me if I could bring it in again though as they needed to change the oil, do an ECU update and put a new sticker on the engine as part of the check.
They had run out of sticker apparently but assured me the cam chain wouldn't break if they did these three things.
I left before I said something very rude to them.
Is this the 7mm/8mm chain issue? AIUI, 8mm chains are OK, 7mm *might* be OK depending on other factors (different types of chain and pulley or some such) but might not. So they are inspecting and where there is doubt replacing. It's not based on wear, it's based on spec, so 30 vs 50 makes no real difference in this case.
There was a long thread on here about it, https://singletrackmag.com/forum/off-topic/snapped-cam-belt-help-on-where-i-stand/ - they could be entirely right and your engine has been looked at and it doesn't have the dodgy parts in and so they are correct. If it subsequently fails before the replacement schedule, and assuming you have followed service instructions to the letter then it's a PITA but you should be OK.
Asked them if I could bring it back when it gets near to 50 000 miles
I'd assume you'll be having it serviced around that time anyway, maybe at 40k as well, IDK service interval, ask them again then (given the issues this is one where paying main dealer to service MIGHT be a good idea, although you can use an indie it could avoid any chance of any wriggling over wrong spec oil or servicing)
So they are inspecting and where there is doubt replacing. It's not based on wear, it's based on spec
They told me they use a "specially developed listening device" to check for wear then make the decision based on that...
One of the tech guys even said to me that he thought they should just replace all the 7mm chains as matter of course and that they're just trying to do as little as possible to actually solve the problem.
I've also asked them how much it would cost to pay for the conversion.
They couldn't even be arsed to get back to me with a price.
TBH after other problems with the car were just going to get shot of it anyway.
Even selling it to WBAC it'll have lost less than a grand a year for the five years we've owned it so not too fussed.
It's just a car and I don't get attached to stuff like that.
If they're anything like Peugeot best of luck.
Took our car back the other day for a recall on a cam chain problem that seems to be happening from 50 000 miles.
They checked it and said it was fine.
Great doesn't need doing yet but not surprising as it's only done 30 00. Asked them if I could bring it back when it gets near to 50 000 miles and was told no it's been checked and they've fulfilled their obligations...
They did ask me if I could bring it in again though as they needed to change the oil, do an ECU update and put a new sticker on the engine as part of the check.
They had run out of sticker apparently but assured me the cam chain wouldn't break if they did these three things.
I left before I said something very rude to them.
You’ve now got a 10 year warranty on the chain, and the ECU update includes some kind of magic condition monitoring to alert you if it is getting iffy. I won’t be doing anything extra with mine once it’s been checked and updated (if I ever get the letter)
if I ever get the letter
Ring your local Peugeot dealer and get it booked in.
One of the tech guys even said to me that he thought they should just replace all the 7mm chains as matter of course and that they're just trying to do as little as possible to actually solve the problem.
I said the same on the other thread but maybe some aren't prone to failing, and on the ones that do they seemed at least to be gambling that they could wriggle out of enough of them to balance the cost of those that they get held to vs the cost of pre-emptive repairs. That didn't consider of course the risk of an engine eating itself while doing 70mph in the outside lane - that would be an interesting coroner's or accident investigator's hearing.
Interesting 'development' on mashr's update too.
But the question is, how likely are we to get amy goodwill from Citroën/Stellantis? The car never went back to the local main Citroën dealer after its warranty expired
I think the problem you'll have is that while the wet belts themselves are problematic, the presence of the that type of belt in an engine requires very specific oil used at services in order to (at least notionally) prevent that degradation of the belt.
Stepping outside of dealer service will mean come a situation like this you can't evidence that the correct oil has been used - and in reality you don't know if it has or not too.
The correct oils are startlingly expensive so unless your trusted local garage has been giving you similarly startlingly high bills with your services it's possible they haven't been. I've recently just had an oil and filter change on a larger stellantis engine - just oil and filter - and the bill came in at over £250 and that was almost all the price of the oil as the sump holds just more than 5 litres so they had to buy two bottles of it and they gave me the left over to keep aside til the next change.
It really does seem like the oils are an evolving science that owners are beta testing as the specs seem to change over time so the 'right oil' might have changed since the last time the garage checked.
With my van - looking up the oil spec in the manual tells you to download their app to find out what oil to use, looking it on the app it says 'call the dealer and ask'.
That didn't consider of course the risk of an engine eating itself while doing 70mph in the outside lane
That also crossed my mind a few times on our recent trip from Amsterdam to the Alps and back.
Oh well it'll not be our problem for much longer.
Thanks for all the responses. Yeah, figuring Citroën will tell is to jog on, despite 30k being an unacceptable lifespan for a timing belt, wet or otherwise. The Total oils are definitely manufacturer spec. With regards to the Shell oil, I do not know whether Stellantis would accept any other brand other than Total if they are to consider any kind of recompense.
To be clear, I wouldnt be expecting a full cover of costs, just perhaps a gesture that acknowledges 30k miles is not good enough. And honestly, if the car was on its original engine, we'd be on track for replacing it soon anyway. I guess its the principle of the thing. Dire quality and poor customer service appears to be the way for a lot of companies with little to no consequence. If we are told to suck it up the best we can do is just go to our independent wet belt expert and get him to do the work, instead of giving our money to anything associated with Citroën/Stellantis. The poor quality of the work previously, as well as the treatment of my partner and child when the AA dropped them off at a dealer in Loughborough after the engine shat itself (20 mins before service department shut, told then to jog on) doesnt make me want to be spending my hard earned with them. Says the man who fairly recently bought an EC4... 🙄
@macruiskeen we definitely have been paying the startlingly high oil prices, and its on the invoice. They have been good enough to give us the remainder to top up with as and when. Reckon that Shell oil used on the 2nd service will be the sticking (ha) point.
stop focusing on simply the milage when discussing with them - it makes you sound like you don't understand the issue.
its X Miles or Y Time
when speaking to them state that its 30k and 3 years old and your guidance (last i checked and it has changed many times) was 60k and 6 years with visual inspection at services with the go-no-go gauge.
@trail-rat point taken, I did make this point clear at the dealer, and the lad there agreed that it was "not very good". Citroën themselves have also had this point made clear so I'm not just focusing on the mileage, at least when I'm taking to them.
Update for those that are bothered. We spoke nicely to the Main Dealer, the Main Dealer have spoken nicely to Citroën and Citroën have agreed to cover the cost of the belt and half the labour. All things considered, and especially as we were expecting nothing, that's a result. Thanks for all the responses 👍
The oil spec has been changed repeatedly. It is now a "new" specification called fpw9.55535/03 since Jan 2024. Total Ineo Quartz RCP 5w30 is the first oil to that specification to market, but there are more that meet that specification now.
I know that you were expecting nothing, but there is a full compensation scheme for people who have been left out of pocket due to this issue. Citroen know this. If you accept 50/50, they have saved 50% of the costs that they have agreed that they are liable for.
I currently have a claim in for the £2300 cost of replacing the chain in my 1.5 diesel with Stellantis via another compensation scheme. It has been with them a month and I have not heard back. My engine now has the 8mm chain, and I have been using the correct oil since I bought it in March 2024, but even than I had to import the oil directly from France. Now every time I am across the channel I buy more as it is significantly cheaper for the Total stuff, like 33% cheaper.
Even after issuing Technical Service Bulletins to all Citroen/Peugeot/DS/Vauxhall dealers, the local dealers to me did not know what I was on about when I was trying to buy the correct oil directly from them. I really wish I had recorded the phone calls "Nah mate, I don't know anything about that, seriously, we just use the same oil from the big containers out the back"