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I have a bike ride starting at 9.30. Enjoy the smugness factor of the referendum result THM, these small pleasures are obviously important to you. I'm sure I'll enjoy my bike ride 🙂
how do we go forward with the movement from here
First sort out the basics like currency etc.
Sort out the Europe Question
Separate SNP party policies from what is being proposed
Don't accuse everyone who voices an opinion against you as scaremongering or lying (especially if they are actually right)
Junky, margin is a different thing from swing required. The referendum rules were that the Yes side needed 50%+1% to win so that would mean a swing of >6% to change the result which is a massive [b]swing[/b] in any modern vote. As ever understanding the facts is important when making a decision.
Whatever way you cut it it was a resounding democratic vote to stay in the UK.
small pleasures
It's raining in Scotland today but I'm smiling, we're not in the midst of a Yes induced economic apocalypse and when I renew my children's passports next week they will be British ones with all the status and privilege that that confers.
of >6% to change the result which is a massive swing in any modern vote.
Its not a massive swing in a general election never mind a binary choice.
As ever understanding the facts is important when making a decision.
Not sure what your point is there
Whatever way you cut it it was a resounding democratic vote to stay in the UK.
I think the number of areas coupled with the vote % means it is undeniably true that it is a clear vote for NO. IMHO it is not a massive majority in a binary choice. I would suggest 2/3 voting one way is around the margin of massive support
Its a fairly mute point No won and , relatively, convincingly.
Thankfully it is large enough to not lead to it being questioned as to legitimacy [ either way the vote had gone]
J, I don't agree with your analysis but agree with your conclusion:
Its a fairly mute point No won and , relatively, convincingly.
Thankfully it is large enough to not lead to it being questioned as to legitimacy
Well you have a long way to go. If it had been a constituency election [b]for the UK parliament[/b] with 28/32 regions registering a vote against the nationalists it would have been a massive defeat for them. The country didn't want it.
Fixed that for you. A pretty pointless analogy when talking about a referendum. Especially in a country that uses PR to vote for its parliament.
I spent £831 this morning on taking the first steps to a better life. Unfortunately that life will be away from Scotland. But hey ho, there are better places to live in the world than one governed by fear. It might not work out, but I'd rather regret something that I have done than something I haven't.
zz, to serve it up another way for you 87.5% of the regions of Scotland voted No. Whatever way you view it, it's a hammer blow for the Yes side considering they thought they would win.
Especially in a country that uses PR to vote for its parliament.
EDIT: I'm sure I recall having a first past the post vote for Scottish MPs in Westminster recently.
A second edit to add context & a third edit for grammar.
Perhaps we can have Salmond on loan to Wales to give Plaid a kick up the arse so we can avoid the likes of this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29177799
I spent £831 this morning on taking the first steps to a better life.
Deposit on a 650B?
Thanks bg, you've summed up exactly what's wrong with UK elections. 87.5% of the Scottish regions voted no. 55% of the Scottish voters voted no.
Which do you think is more representative?
not correct to talk about regions/areas voting one way or another. the use of that was down to the infrastructure of vote counting.
Deposit on a 650B?
Shame he won't be using it to bring Scotland alive.
Which do you think is more representative?
It doesn't really matter as the regions were just used to for administrative reasons. Though the map showing the No vote across the country was very telling.
Thanks bg, you've summed up exactly what's wrong with UK elections. 87.5% of the Scottish regions voted no. 55% of the Scottish voters voted no.Which do you think is more representative?
Hmm, you seem to be calling for electoral boundaries to be redrawn so that each seat carries a roughly equal population
Worth remembering that the Tories wanted to do this with parliamentary elections, and the other parties opposed it because of the advantage the current system gave them...
when I renew my children's passports next week they will be British ones with all the status and privilege that that confers.
You are joking, right?
I'm not calling for anything. I was trying to point out a couple of things...
1. How the Scottish regions voted is of absolutely no relevance whatsoever in a national referendum.
2. My broader point was that PR is more representative than first past the post regional voting (87.5% versus 55%).
But hey ho, there are better places to live in the world than one governed by fear.
Honestly. Stop being so ****ing ridiculous. You have no idea what you ate talking about.
I think you mean it is worth remembering the Tories wanted to do this because of the advantages it gave themWorth remembering that the Tories wanted to do this with parliamentary elections, and the other parties opposed it because of the advantage the current system gave them...
They voted against gerrymandering basically
wanmankylung - MemberI spent £831 this morning on taking the first steps to a better life. Unfortunately that life will be away from Scotland.
That's a shame.
Why not stay and make a difference?
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But hey ho, there are better places to live in the world than one governed by fear.
It's not fear.
It's human nature.
It might not work out, but I'd rather regret something that I have done than something I haven't.
I agree with you there though.
🙂
And it's a great opportunity missed.
But things are pretty fluid at the moment - at least stick around for the 'Glasgow Spring' mass uprising next year.
I think you mean it is worth remembering the Tories wanted to do this because of the advantages it gave them
They voted against gerrymandering basically
No, as you well know the status quo gives an inbuilt advantage to the other parties, an equal share of the vote does not give an equal outcome in parliament - returning that to the neutral point whereby every vote caries the same value is not gerrymandering, its called fairness.
And it wasn't nationalist.
The clue is in the N of the name, SNP.
The N in SNP stands for national, not nationalist.
But hey ho, there are better places to live in the world than one governed by fear.
It's a good thing you're going to travel more because if you think Scotland is governed by fear, you must be naive or barking.
No, as you well know the status quo gives an inbuilt advantage to the other parties, an equal share of the vote does not give an equal outcome in parliament - returning that to the neutral point whereby every vote caries the same value is not gerrymandering, its called fairness.
Forgive me I had not realised they had proposed PR to replace FPTP and what they had done was make every vote count.
In that case I support it
How long before the bickering ends and it's business as usual. Or is that just business as usual.
I am referring to Scotland not stw 😀
Gordon Brown's playing a blinder this morning, live from Dalgety Bay on BBC News channel (130).
He's on the way back...
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/20/irvine-welsh-scottish-independence-glorious-failure ]Here[/url] is a piece from Irvine Welsh on the Guardian.
The clue is in the N of the SNP
😆 you still don't get it. Guess you never will.
BTW regarding others smugness. Enjoy. Just be aware that minus the over 65. The vote was actually 54% yes.
Interesting times ahead to see how the 45 manifests itself.
Interesting times ahead to see how the 45 manifests itself.
Probably a lot will depend on whether the promised devolution is delivered and is successful, or if the main Westminster parties end up squabbling and produce nothing but hot air.
chip - Member
How long before the bickering ends and it's business as usual.
Wednesday, next week.
Wednesday, next week
Thank **** for that I thought the referendum may have created a rift among the Scottish people.
mikewsmith +1
you still don't get it.
From [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Party ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Party[/url]:
The Scottish National Party (SNP; Scottish Gaelic: Pàrtaidh Nàiseanta na h-Alba, Scots: Scots Naitional Pairtie) is a Scottish [b]nationalist[/b][14][15] and social-democratic[16][17][14] political party in Scotland.
I get it. You're being obtuse.
It has, but we will soon be back to blaming the English.
As the voting map showed, there are rifts, but then there is the day job to attend to. Could be Thursday on reflection. 😉
Just be aware that minus the over 65. The vote was actually 54% yes.
If you discount the people that don't agree with me, then everyone agrees with me! So I must be right!
Strip out 4 councils and .......
Who cares about the what ifs, the people have spoken. The result is known. Move on. It's England, Wales and NI turn now!
I took his point to be next time there is a vote they will be dead and those left support Yes
I really hope this sparks prolonged debate on devolving powers to all part of the UK. Looking forward to being involved in the mix. If there is a will across the UK but Westminster drags its heels, we could have then have a movement on an epic scale.
I took his point to be next time there is a vote they will be dead
To be replaced by more over 65 year olds.
One of the interesting things about the Yes psychology is that throughout the campaign they seemed to think they were winning, and now they have lost, they still seem to act like they won.
Some pretty ridiculous and I'll judged facebook status flying around at the minute.
I'm not sure indirectly referring to life long friends as"disgusting" "stupid" "traitors" "ruled by fear and ignorance" and many more is the best thing to do.
Interesting times ahead to see how the 45 manifests itself.
At the minute,and judging by their profile pictures, they're manifesting themselves quite badly.
As before the vote, the behavioural differences between the two camps is stark. You'd easily think there was only one type of voter, but the others are there.
I appreciate the passion that's been put into this by friends in both camps. But expressions of disgust at those that voted differently, which includes many friends is in no way going to achieve anything positive.
One of the interesting things about the Yes psychology is that throughout the campaign they seemed to think they were winning, and now they have lost, they still seem to act like they won.
I'm inclined to wonder if this [i]may[/i] have been the result of a campaign tactic to create a sense of momentum.
I agree piemonster, however I am putting down to the fact we are still in the immediate aftermath and passions are running high. Things would have been the same had the result gone the other way. I hope to see Yes passion and vision channelled positively to help keep the debate prominent throughout the UK.
Well said PM!
that's not what I'm saying in the slightest. I'm saying that you can come to a lot of conclusions by understanding that stat. Two are that, pensions was the deciding issue, and that for the under 65s traditional medias reach is significantly waining.molgrips - Member
Just be aware that minus the over 65. The vote was actually 54% yes.
If you discount the people that don't agree with me, then everyone agrees with me! So I must be right!
You can view that in a nationalist context or extrapolate it to a wider UK context. The message is there for all.
You argued you were losing your political allies. Come and join the 45.
bencooper - Member
The UK's third city doesn't want to be in the UK.
What! Greater Birmingham doesn't want to be in the UK any more? Someone tell the [s]BBC[/s]Russia Today!
Always worth checking your facts. Glasgow is not the UK's [b]third[/b] city.
Edit in bold.
Incidently, people are saying that's democracy. Absolutely, I understand and accept that.
Democracy is also transient.
Democracy is also transient
So are you taking up the armed struggle?
bencooper - Member
The UK's third city doesn't want to be in the UK.
53% of the 75% who voted didn't want to be part of the UK.
what, care to explain that utterly confunding leap you just made?bearGrease - Member
Democracy is also transientSo are you taking up the armed struggle?
53% of the 75% who voted didn't want to be part of the UK.
Am I right in thinking that for the total Scottish electorate, that Yes achieved votes from 37.77%
Which would put No on 46.74%
Edited,
That was the glasgow numbers
Sorry, wasn't questioning the numbers. You just instigated a train if thought as to what the percentages are for the total electorate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results
Votes %
NO 2,001,926 55.30
YES 1,617,989 44.70
TARGET TO WIN 1,809,958 N/A
After 32 of 32 counts
Electorate
4,283,392
Turnout
84.59%
Rejected ballots
3,429
I dropped a couple of minor bits. But including those that didn't vote it's more or less rightish.
Mike
The UK's third city doesn't want to be in the UK.53% of the 75% who voted didn't want to be part of the UK.
Glasgow is not the UK's third city.
yes, but i'm not going to edit other peoples posts when I quote them.
I'm not disgusted by no voters, except the ones in George Square last night, but I am disappointed in them. And in the media coverage that influenced them. This has made me question my identity, part of me doesn't recognise this Scotland and that's hard to deal with.
I'd like to know what the split among Scottish-born voters was. I'm not for a suggesting that others shouldn't have been allowed to vote, I'd just be interested to see if native Scots (for want of a better term) were more or less Yes than the full electorate.
As another aside, the media coverage has been an eye-opener. Makes you question how reporting on other news and events is distorted. I don't know where to go for honest, impartial coverage of any news now, not the BBC that's for sure.
[quote=mikewsmith said]yes, but i'm am going to edit other peoples posts when I quote them.
FTFY 😉
I'd just be interested to see if native Scots (for want of a better term) were more or less Yes than the full electorate.
Perhaps they just identify as British before Scottish.
yes, but i'm not going to edit other peoples posts when I quote them.
Eh? No editing of other peoples posts going on here. Just pointing out inaccuracies. I guess UK's fifth, maybe fourth, city doesn't sound as impressive as the original, inaccurate statement.
unknown - Member
I'm not disgusted by no voters, except the ones in George Square last night, but I am disappointed in them. And in the media coverage that influenced them.
Were they not able to make up their own minds? Did they not believe what was in "Scotland's Future"?
utterly confunding leap
Ummmmm....confunding????? Is that an SNP economic formula?
Edit: Again no editing of the original quote.
whatever, I was quoting what somebody else said.
There is an irony in complaining about London's excess influence while ignoring how concentrated the YES vote was in Scotland by location.
[quote=mikewsmith said]whatever, I was quoting what somebody else said.
sarcasm Aside I have no idea why you are getting grief for quoting someone else who got it wrong and you are correct
All the 'native' born Scots I know voted NO. I only know two 'non-native' Scots who were eligible to vote - they both voted YES (a bit like Ben - they seemed hugely enthusiastic about independence as a concept).
Incredibly unscientific but IME just because someone was born in Scotland doesn't mean they would automatically vote yes. The 'natives' I know are incredibly patriotic - they truly love Scotland they just also believe in a United Kingdom. I think that some of the YES voters on here have a real problem with this concept. Salmond exploited this to perfection.
Well said AD.
There is an irony in complaining about London's excess influence while ignoring how concentrated the YES vote was in Scotland by location.
You'd have had more people vote yes in London than Glasgow if they'd had the vote.
I said I was disappointed in them because I believe they were wrong. They believe I was wrong to vote yes. That's democracy and time will tell who was right.
My experience is the opposite of ADs, of everyone I know I can only think of 3 no voters, that's way I'd be interested to know the stats (which don't exist anyway).
unknown - Member
the stats (which don't exist anyway).
And shouldn't exist IMO.
Thankfully it is large enough to not lead to it being questioned as to legitimacy
Try telling that to all the people complaining the vote was rigged
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
I would rather not try and reason with them but I wish you the very best of luck ...you may just need that straw man pic
oh dear the internet must be lonely
Why is this important?I and others believe the campaign was rigged.
It's wrong because I don't agree with it 🙁
no one I know thinks it was rigged. God knows where they get their numbers from. I suspect its not restricted to Scotland.aracer - Member
Thankfully it is large enough to not lead to it being questioned as to legitimacy
Try telling that to all the people complaining the vote was rigged
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-for-scottish-referendum-vote-count
I would rather not try and reason with them
I don't think they even understand the concept of reason!
Forget the distinction between native or not I would love to see the stats on voters wealth or what football team supported
there was a bunch of stuff on the BBC I think on voter groupings, a lot was done from the area and polls but there was some correlation between earning and preference but there were also a lot of other factors.
I think the media coverage and scare tactics pre voting was disgraceful. It makes me question the morality of Britain. Are we really free democratic thinkers? There was a clear agenda for the no campaign and I fear it was shear financially driven. I think if there was no money to be gained from Scotland in the UK we (Scotland) would happily be cut lose.
The facts are for me, the government lied in the past and continues to lie. The 1979 referendum proved that. The people were told they could not support themselves and the oil was on its way out. The dossier that has since been released after been kept secret has spoiled that lie. And guess what the oil is still there.
There will come a day when there will be no financial gain for the UK in Scotland and maybe the truth will out regarding how loyal the UK will be to Scotland.