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bearGrease - MemberBut far more of those voters turned out to make sure his ideological vision never happened.
Not the point- this debate got people motivated to vote. I started typing "the highest turnout since" but I think it may actually be the highest UK voting turnout ever, for anything, against a background where 20% of the electorate is enough to select a "majority" government. That's a big deal- I'm not going to turn up my nose at a victory for democracy, just because people democratically voted for the other side 😉
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11102155/Now-is-not-the-time-for-Scots-to-think-small.html ]Here's[/url] an article from Neil Oliver making the point about opposing nationalism in a far more considered way than I did. This quote stands out:
If you’re a Scot, like I think of Scots, then if you find the way to the promised land, you take everyone with you, not just the few. We go as a United Kingdom or we don’t go at all. That’s the Scottish way.I have little time for this year’s crop of politicians. However, my hackles do go up when nationalism rears its head. Some Scots claim to be saying a “quiet” Yes to independence that has nothing to do with Alex Salmond. For me, that claim is disingenuous. There is a river running through Britain now and it has the power to force us apart. That river is nationalism and it is rising all the time. We must cross that river, all of us – English, Irish, Scots and Welsh.
Not the point
It is the point. Alec Salmond put forward a insular, small minded proposal, subverted the Scottish Government in attempts to shore it up and come referendum day it was roundly dismissed by Scots who have a wider world view.
So in only a few hours the tories are not only back-tracking on promises made
The other day at work I suggested a timescale for something, but I had to revise it once I knew more about the issue. No-one questioned my competence or integrity though.
Political language and rhetoric is a far bigger problem than people realise.
The other day at work I suggested a timescale for something, but I had to revise it once I knew more about the issue.
What new information will Cameron, Miliband et al have received that could push the timetable back? Apart from the fact that they've got sod all chance of getting any extra powers for Scotland through parliament, but they knew that already.
What new information will Cameron, Miliband et al have received that could push the timetable back?
They've thought about it a bit more - obviously. Or perhaps they're delaying to allow them to lean on their parties a bit more.
You've really no idea what goes on in there, so making cynical pronouncements just makes your arguments a bit more lightweight, I'm afraid.
They made rash promises to secure a No vote. we said that they were rash promises that they wouldn't keep. We were told that they were real and serious this time. We said pull the other one. We were told that there was a proper timetable agreed by all parties.
As I'm sure I'll have to say many times: we told you so.
I have a feeling we'll be saying "we told you so" for a long time.
Looking at George Square, so do I....
If the Yes campaign made rash promises what on earth were the fantasies the Yes campaign promised?
Looking at George Square, so do I....
On that, I completely agree.
I like the way a new narrative appears... Yes was heading for victory until the Vow appeared. I'm not sure that was the case. There was only one poll which put Yes ahead, within the margin of error. Then the polls went back to what they had been and the final vote showed No as any stronger than the polls. I don't know of any No voter who changed their minds following the intervention (small sample admittedly) and I doubt that many No's will feel betrayed if this all turns outgo be a political fib. I appreciate that there is disappointment for the Yes side, I just sense that there is a ready made grievance in the offing.
The Yes campaign keeps getting referred to as being insular, small minded, inward looking. That IME is not the case at all, it was really quite internationalist in its outlook. Yes being rejected has been portrayed as being petty nationalism being defeated. It wasn't, it was just a different type of nationalism that won.
It wasnt Yes that was having marches in support involving sectarian organisations or demonstrations with neo-fascists turning up and giving Nazi salutes and so on. None of this got much coverage in the media though, and the likes of David Cameron were never asked to condemn the idiots on fringes of Better Together in the way that Alex Salmond had to answer for the idiot fringe in the Yes campaign.
Live from George Square right now, the all inclusive, outward looking No support in full effect.
If the Yes campaign made rash promises what on earth were the fantasies the Yes campaign promised?
The No promises were broken within 24 hours - we'll never know if the Yes promises would last, but that's got to be a record.
Oh, and here's some lovely No supporters who just stormed into George Square letting off flares:
[img] 
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I'm probably going to be called racist for posting that image...
Yes, clearly.. 2 million people are right-wing football hooligans.
No just selective Ben, come on lose graciously.
Promises broken..........? 😀
Yes, clearly.. 2 million people are right-wing football hooligans.
Yes, that's exactly what I said.
But that is what you would indirectly like to imply.
Anyone else in the square Ben or are they chanting jnto space?
No just selective Ben, come on lose graciously.
I'm afraid that's an accurate picture of the vast majority of the 'No' celebratory team there at George Square.
Anyone else in the square Ben or are they chanting jnto space?
There were some peaceful Yes people there, had been for hours, who are now trying to leave but are surrounded on three sides.
Yes, clearly.. 2 million people are right-wing football hooligans.
No one said that. Its about how the wider Yes campaign and Salmond got repeatedly linked in the media (and directly by the No campaign too) for a very small number of idiots on the fringes whereas the No campaign and Cameron weren't linked and associated to their lunatic fringe. The coverage gave impression that Yes were full of extremists and No were just a silent, law abiding majority.
The Yes campaign was ahead - against the No. But setting aside the "don't knows". Of which there was a substantial number - 7-8-9 % or so??
That's a big momentum to shift, like a wall of water inside a ship..
Lets just hope we don't get a surge of English Nationalism rearing it's ugly head.
"English Votes For English Laws" tagline bandied about so far.
We're already there
So the suggestion of an English parliament, which is perfectly sensible and clearly democratic, is "English Nationalism rearing it's ugly head" ?
Some people really crack me up with their hypersensitive nonsensical PC bollocks ! 😆
@benc I know the Yes campaign are boycotting the BBC for asking Wee Eck some hard questions but does that mean you have had to get your impartial world news from Russia Today?
I guess if Yes had won the SBC would have been run by paragon of the free press and Salmond pal R. Murdoch, so perhaps RT isn't too bad in comparison.
I also guess that if Yes had won The Bigot Soutar would have been put in charge of education policy to oversee equality in a "free" Scotland.
Good job you guys lost.
Oh, don't be silly.
Nothing silly about it. The SNP has some very dubious allies.
So the suggestion of an English parliament, which is perfectly sensible and clearly democratic, is "English Nationalism rearing it's ugly head" ?Some people really crack me up with their hypersensitive nonsensical PC bollocks !
Didn't you know, Ernest, English nationalism is all nasty racists, while Scottish nationalism is a heroic noble cause.
(I agree with you in full, by the way! )
Nothing silly about it. The SNP has some very dubious allies.
Find me any who are doing Nazi salutes and singing sectarian songs.
I think the fact that people around the UK are discussing devolution for regions is a success story of the referendum. We need the vision and drive of the Yes side channelled positively now more than ever. We all need you not to stand back and wait to say "I told you so".
They're football fans.
Murdoch is a billionaire on a mission to give the British state a black eye. Scotland would have been minor collateral damage to him.
Believe me, I'd love more than anything not to have to say I told you so. Oddly, one person I found myself agreeing with last night was John Redwood, when he called for a proper federal system of government.
They're football fans.
Not sure if you're naive or trolling. They're sectarian bigots doing Nazi salutes, singing sectarian songs, taunting the few Yes people left, and waving "No Thanks" signs - as well as being football fans.
They're not Partick Thistle supporters on a pub crawl.
I'm enjoying the ascii skeletons in the youtube live feed, it's good to see the silent text-based skeleton vote finally being recognised.
For comparison, this was George Square yesterday:
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Find me any who are doing Nazi salutes and singing sectarian songs.
I can find you a picture of a polling station with 'No voters will be shot' and 'vote Yes or else' graffitied on it. Or numerous pictures of Yes supporters burning the Union flag.
But carry on claiming that Yes voters are all better people if it helps sooth your bitterness.
I like the way a new narrative appears... Yes was heading for victory until the Vow appeared. I'm not sure that was the case.
+1
Seems to have basis in reality but comforting for some I suppose.
And I'd stop using the phrase 'I told you so' if I were you - you also said that Yes was going to win, whereas lots of people told you it wasn't going to happen.
Are we posting pictures ? Here's some Flemish nazi supporters/allies of the Yes Campaign
[img] 
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Come on Ben that lad in the blue coat is pointing with his finger that's not a Nazi Salute. Your seeing what you want to see.
From the BBC website:
19:33: More on George Square A Police Scotland spokeswoman has said that there are [b]approximately 100 people from each side[/b] in George Square in Glasgow.
There has been some minor disorder which has been dealt with quickly, with no arrests.
The square is closed to traffic with local diversions in place.
I guess you won't get that from RT.
But carry on claiming that Yes voters are all better people if it helps sooth your bitterness.
I'm not bitter, I'm shocked and deeply saddened - partly by the No result of course, but mostly by this cancer in our society. It's a problem for everyone, but to try to pretend that they're not No supporters is just ridiculous.
There are many good, decent No voters, but some aren't, and the worst of them are far, far worse than the occasional egg thrower in the Yes camp.
I can do the selective thing too, look:
In Clydebank, one Yes supporter, aged 44, was arrested by police after allegedly assaulting a man he believed would be voting No. He is due to appear at Dumbarton Sheriff Court this morning.In Hamilton, a councillor arguing for a No vote was abused by a passer-by and then chased through a shopping centre. Monica Lennon said: “It’s really, really intimidating. For someone in politics, your tolerance level tends to be a bit higher than ordinary members of the public, but a line was crossed.
Mark Ferguson, the editor of LabourList, said he had been spat at while campaigning in Leith, north Edinburgh.
Mr Ferguson said: “This is indicative of the febrile mood here. My only “crime” was to be stood outside the Better Together office. I wasn’t wearing a badge, holding a leaflet or even campaigning (not that any of these activities would have justified being spat at either). This is the kind of intimidation and vile aggression that’s on show from some people today.”
Business leaders and organisations representing Scotland’s commercial sector have also reported threats and intimidation in recent weeks after 133 business executives signed a pro-Union petition.
'Yes' and 'No' voters protest (Getty Images) 'Yes' and 'No' voters protest (Getty Images)
A prominent businessman, Charles Ritchie, the founder of the Score Group, said that his family and employees had suffered months of abuse and intimidation from Yes supporters.“The sinister intimidation started on 24 June, which was when the first of a number of hoax bomb calls began and hoax letter bombs were delivered to me,” he told the Scottish Research Society.
“These led to his obvious concern for family and employees, especially when my grandson and nephew were followed and threatened”
He said: There has been constant destruction and defacing of No campaign posters and signs by my offices in Peterhead and Fraserburgh, which I and my employees witnessed being carried out by balaclava wearing activists.”
Therefore - Yes voters are dicks, No supporters are angels. Wow this is really easy.
Come on Ben that lad in the blue coat is pointing with his finger that's not a Nazi Salute. Your seeing what you want to see.
Go look at other pics - quite a few of them.
They made rash promises to secure a No vote. we said that they were rash promises that they wouldn't keep. We were told that they were real and serious this time. We said pull the other one. We were told that there was a proper timetable agreed by all parties.As I'm sure I'll have to say many times: we told you so.
They've wriggled on a minor point of timescales. I won't accept "I told you so" until two years have passed and no progress has been made.
As I said - things can be delayed, but they can still be delivered. I'm glad you're not my project manager.
Oh, I give up.
I'm not bitter, I'm shocked and deeply saddened - partly by the No result of course, but mostly by this cancer in our society. It's a problem for everyone, but to try to pretend that they're not No supporters is just ridiculous.
Lucky no-one's done that then. 🙄
There are many good, decent No voters, but some aren't, and the worst of them are far, far worse than the occasional egg thrower in the Yes camp.
This is just cretinous selective nonsense. Suggesting that the worst Yes supporters have done is throw eggs is patently bullshit and just shows up how biased you are.
Yes sectarian idiots are idiots - there are plenty on your 'side' too.
Oh, I give up.
Probably best that you do because your arguments are indefensible. It just comes back to your basic theme of 'we're better than them and we only lost because people are thick'.
I have always said that there is a cancer in Scotland, particularly the West Coast that is I suppose you could call religious bigotry. I also said that this is a problem for Scotland whatever the outcome. This cancer would not have dissapated on the day of the result if it had gone the other way.
This result was decided by millions of reasonable voters.
Not sure if you're naive or trolling.
Has Salmond gifted you his SNP debating manual on his clear out of Bute House?
the occasional egg thrower in the Yes camp.
That's more than a little blinkered Ben. What about the Yes campaigners smashing up the No signs, physically threatening No campaigners, daubing graffiti and even calling in bomb threats?
Both sides have their share of nutters.
What we should remember is that in many other parts of the world this whole process would and could only happen via a full on civil war. The fact that we can manage it without any loss of life (touch wood) is testament to our countries and their people.
They've wriggled on a minor point of timescales. I won't accept "I told you so" until two years have passed and no progress has been made.As I said - things can be delayed, but they can still be delivered. I'm glad you're not my project manager.
Minor - they have failed the very first step of the project - its hardly confidence inspiring
In PM terms everyone failed to turn up for a meeting that was never held to decide a timescale for the project we are all working on
Its pretty bad tbh.
I cannot decide if you are hopelessly naive or childishly optimistic
I am hopeful they will deliver but not expectant
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11110051/Telegraph-reporters-barred-from-Alex-Salmonds-resignation-press-conference.html ]This[/url] shows what Salmond's attitude is to a free press.
Ben, just watched CH4 news (+1) and the live pictures from the square were unsurprisingly very different from the RT ones you chose to select as was the commentary.
Are CH4 absurdly biased too? Should we all convert to RT?
Oh, I give up.
Is the correct answer. Don't forget us no-ers have a tendency to check the facts!!!
Along with The Telegraph, journalists from the Daily Mail and the Daily Express were also not invited.
Yes only AS dislikes that cadre 🙄
He berated the BBC, accused them of bias and argued with them but they attended DM links are banned here etc
Mleh
Yes only AS dislikes that cadre
Selective quoting there, Junky!
The Guardian did not send a reporter after the First Minister’s office attempted to nominate which reporter could be sent.
Ben, just watched CH4 news (+1) and the live pictures from the square were unsurprisingly very different from the RT ones you chose to select as was the commentary.Are CH4 absurdly biased too? Should we all convert to RT?
You will not see much of them in George Square now, they have moved into Buchanan Street. It has turned even more nasty with punches thrown, charging at people , bottles thrown. Not just Glasgow either, smaller scale in surrounding areas. The organisation these thugs are associated with were registered with the Electoral Commission as a No campaigner.
Why full scale not shown in live picture? Don't know, you tell me. Perhaps an egg and some graffiti has previously used up all the bandwith.
He leaves the stage in the same manner as he tried to control it - bluffing, bullying and blustering. How very appropriate.
What's happened in Buchanan Street? Has Farrage turned up?!?
Whoever they are, whatever they are doing. They are not representative of No voters.
piemonster - MemberWhoever they are, whatever they are doing. They are not representative of No voters.
Absolutely- anyone who thinks otherwise is a prick.
*Edit - Northwind put it far better!*
Absolutely- anyone who thinks otherwise is a prick.
*Applauds*
Not suggesting that they are, just trying to point out the difference in the coverage and slant put on it.
I can't take it any longer!!!
It's [b]independence[/b]!
Edit: HAVE SOMe BADLY eXECuTED CApS LOCK AS wELl
Bear, multiple exclamation marks there are rather ruining your point, old chap.
😉
I'd be very, very wary of Russian state owned medias portrayal of anything in the West.
I'd be very, very wary of Russian state owned medias portrayal of anything[s] in the West.[/s]
FTFY
The only campaign signs I've seen vandalised were No ones. "Traitor" and "Scum" were what the Yes vandals chose as a riposte to the right to express one's political opinion.
My colleague was accused of looking "guilty" by a Yes canvasser when she left her polling station.
At least Theresa May will be pleased that the SNP have been doing their best to earn the epithet of the "nasty party".
On a lighter note I hugged and kissed my wife (over our porridge) when we heard the news this morning that Scotland has seen sense.
My disenfranchised father just told me he cried for joy when he heard. He also told me that he hasn't slept properly for days for the worry of his homeland turning it's back on our neighbours and friends.
The only campaign signs I've seen vandalised were No ones. "Traitor" and "Scum" were what the Yes vandals chose as a riposte to the right to express one's political opinion.
Doesn't take too many bampots to spray paint a sign, although the traitor watch thing is disturbing. I wonder what the SnG forum is like.
way to celebrate the union! riot! that's your allies folks, the orange vermin currently tearing up glasgow. 🙄
The toon has been very chilled all week and even at 5pm today when I passed through, orange mob turn up annnddd....
...well, I'll let you ask the people or manchester about their experiences.
In all fairness, in the last couple of weeks I have seen equal defacing pf signs which is deeply regrettable.
Scottish Defence League apparently.
bearGrease - MemberThe only campaign signs I've seen vandalised were No ones.
I've seen both. But very little of either really.
On a lighter note I hugged and kissed my wife (over our porridge) when we heard the news this morning that Scotland has seen sense.My disenfranchised father just told me he cried for joy when he heard. He also told me that he hasn't slept properly for days for the worry of his homeland turning it's back on our neighbours and friends.
Quite.
I'm in a bit of a weird position, I've friends on both sides that are absolutely gutted by the referendum. Even on the side that "won" I want them all to get the world they want to live in. 😐
they're one and the same.ernie_lynch - Member
Scottish Defence League apparently.
What is Traitor Watch may I ask?
I'm guessing about 6 blokes sat in a shed, dreaming of Mel Gibson.
seosamh. These idiots are your and my countrymen and women. WE ALL have to deal with this problem.
Point of order - isn't the Nazi saluting a specific reference to the SNP's history, ie. Arthur Donaldson...
Thanks piemonster.
Trust me, I know only too well. I've been the target of their hate my entire existance.athgray - Member
seosamh. These idiots are your and my countrymen and women. WE ALL have to deal with this problem.
That's the only legacy that will come from this no vote, an organisation that was dying on it's arse, the orange order, has been given the ultimate lifeline.
It's **** ing tragic.
Don't expect any headlines tomorrow, it'll get swept under the carpet as per.
Point of order - isn't the Nazi saluting a specific reference to the SNP's history, ie. Arthur Donaldson...
No it is not. Do you even really need to ask?
The Russian state owned media was just a youtube webcam feed of George Square there isnt any commentary or editorial on it and the photo that was posted is a screengrab from that. For some of us we live here and have experienced what the mood in the city has been the last week and what its like now - its not some distant news event that we are only seeing threw the prism of the media.
Much was made of the grafitti outside the polling station - Absolutely no excuses for that, it just shouldnt be happening. However throughout the day and particularly into the evening outside another polling station (just off Paisley Road West - less than half a mile away from BBC Scotland headquarters) there were dozens of "better together" supporters outside the orange hall that is next to the polling station entrance and police were needed to keep them in check from threatening voters. That is much more serious case of intimidation than a bit of grafitti that virtually no-one would have seen because it was painted over as soon as it was discovered. No coverage at all of this on the news though. Not even on Russia Today!
Ah yes Manchester, you mean the city your sinnfein/ira supporting brethren bombed to smithereens and maimed hundreds, seowhateveryournameis?