[Closed] Well scotland didnt get independance, thread

Baltic States nationalism in the late 80s?

Those sort of comparisons are just mental and ignorant. I have friend's and family in those countries, quite a sobering experience to ask for their experiences in the 1980s.

But they didn't, they voted No.

Like these things haven't been happening for the past 30 years? Like I said it's a great trick. Convince the people that they'll be better off under the status quo, even though their living standards and freedoms have been eroded under that system for the past 30 years.

Molls - despite what they may think, the crowd at Twickenham isn't really a political movement

I didn't say that, that was someone else.

And you think that will happen?

Yeah, I'm hopeful. The shouting will arrive when they start deciding exactly what. But you'd hope that the SNP already have a specific shopping list.

It's not just political influence people are now willing to sacrifice, but they're also willing to accept falling wages, poorer pensions, poorer public services, poorer working rights etc through fear of being even more worse off.

Wait and see. I doubt Tories would have won th enext election, so that would be the only statement people could really make. You may feel pretty smug about the referendum turnout and campaigning but you were offered this, you didn't make it. To accuse the rest of the UK of acquiescence because they didn't ahve such a campaign is a bit below the belt.

However like I said, we'll have to see what happens from now on. Things will be different.

At the end of the day, Alex Salmond must be laughing his tits off. I personally think he's pulled off the biggest coup in British electoral history.

I don't think he ever wanted full independence. Not for a minute. He wanted Devo Max right from the off. Best of both worlds. Risk free power.

But look what he's done. Look how he's managed it! He asked for the Devo Max option to be included on the ballot paper. The response from Westminster was a dismissive 'you can **** right off mate! You've no chance!! Thats having your cake and eating it!!! Most definitely NOT on the agenda. Jog on!!"

Fast forward 2 years and he's got the leaders of all 3 parties scurrying up from Westminster to offer him exactly that, delivered up to him on a big silver platter!

He's played an absolute blinder! And if it all pans out, it could work out very nicely for everyone. The head of the Welsh assembly has just been on the radio saying theres no chance Wales will accept anything less than what Scotland is getting. I expect everyone else will be lining up to say the same.

I wonder how many of the Westminster lot are waking up to the fact that they're not half as clever as they think they are, and they've just been played, big time, by a master of the game? 😆

Oh... sorry Molls 😳

No, the real trick is promising that they'll be better off under some new system, which is actually just the same but with less money to go round.

Convince the people that they'll be better off under the status quo, even though their living standards and freedoms have been eroded under that system for the past 30 years.

Given the Yes campaign wanted to change the status quo, surely the onus was on them to convince people they could make them better off etc. Something they were very light on in detail (partly because it's very hard to even know if they could, let alone prove it).

Just a quick question. How long before this all start up again?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/david-cameron-english-question-ed-miliband-scotland

I'm not sure making the Chancellorship unavailable to Scottish MPs is a good idea? It seems to me that we need an upper house who can be elected by everyone in Britain and a lower house with devolved powers for England.

This seems like a monumentally bad idea and a move towards cementing Tory hold and to reduce the Scottish voice when it comes to nationwide matters. I don't for a second believe that there will be a black and white line drawn out that will govern what Scottish MP's can vote for, this will be a source of legal wrangling for decades unless we separate the houses and give them clear mandates.

even though their living standards and freedoms have been eroded under that system for the past 30 years.

I think that statement may well be rubbish.

Living standards are certainly higher than they were 30 years ago. And "freedoms" is pretty hard to pin down. Some things are better, some are worse.

Shock news,citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain wished to stay citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

surely the onus was on them to convince people they could make them better off etc

But it wasn't an election where these sort of promises are made. It was a referendum on whether they wanted to take more control over the issues that could potentially bring them about. I don't think many yes voters thought they'd be better off afterwards, in fact I reckon they probably accepted they'd be worse off in the short term, but that it would be a price worth paying to gain the immediate benefits on offer and the increased opportunity of being better off in the longer term.

but that it would be a price worth paying

or not in the majority of cases.

So not everyone shared your optimism. No big deal, you've got Devo-Max to look forward too.

theres no chance Wales will accept anything less than what Scotland is getting.

Good! I hope that goes for the regions too.

I wonder how many of the Westminster lot are waking up to the fact that they're not half as clever as they think they are, and they've just been played, big time, by a master of the game?

I much prefer this interpretation of events binners 🙂

At the end of the day, Alex Salmond must be laughing his tits off. I personally think he's pulled off the biggest coup in British electoral history.

Here he is laughing his tits off
[img] [/img]

What I want to know is - where the hell is Ernie? 🙁

aracer - thats just 😥 for the cameras. When he got in his house its pumping disco, champagne and nosebag and bouncing up and down on the sofa, naked

Meanwhile, here's a rally for democracy and freedom in London

[img] [/img]

When he got in his house its pumping disco, champagne and nosebag and bouncing up and down on the sofa, naked

It's nearly time for lunch. Thanks for that image.

Taken from another area of the internet:

A vision of the re-validated United Kingdom:
Firstly Scotland, the new powers promised (yet to be confirmed what exactly they are, or could be possibly), after much wrangling and watering down due to the Westminster back benchers refusing to tow the (official) party line, are granted. Crucially these include tax raising powers,ability to borrow funds against assets, and the ability to ring fence healthcare spending and hence prevent ( or seemingly prevent) the stealth privatisation of these services happening elsewhere in the UK. One power that will not be on the table is to have any increased representation regarding negotiations with the EU on common policy's.Bear in mind that privatisation of nationalised industries/services is not a UK government policy as such, but a direct result of the conditions designed to create a free marketplace imposed by the IMF et al when lending money to bail out the UK from the late 70's onwards. Now this is a very important point as we will see.
Returning to the powers granted to Scotland, in return for these powers ( which will come with the caveat, as is now, that the Westminster government can over rule the Scottish parliament at any time it chooses if the policy in question does not suit it's own agenda),the current Barnett formula will be abolished. Again this is a very important point for the rest of the UK, but not for the reasons you may think, we will come back to this later.
There will be, for a time, a block grant allocated for funding in Scotland until such time that all the mechanisms for the collection and distribution of taxes are in place, then this will be ended.
Now the Oil question, regardless of what the Yes campaign told us about oil revenues in an independent Scotland, the truth is that it was the cornerstone of their funding plans in the short to medium term. Without the oil revenues an independent Scotland could never have managed to convince any lender to fund the start up costs of a new country with no assets. An asset is in the eyes of a lender a tangible thing, that if worst comes to worst can be appropriated in order to cover the debt owed, the intellectual ideals, or the amount of wind and waves around a country is not a sufficiently tangible asset for a lender to take a chance on!
These oil revenues and reserves will be classed, as they are now, a UK asset, and will continue to be used as a financial lever for borrowing and taxation will continue to go to the UK government to be distributed as they see fit.
Back to taxation powers, from the taxes raised by the Scottish parliament, an expectation will be made by the UK government that from those tax revenues, payments will continue to be made against our shared outgoings/ debt repayments i.e. military, defence/ offence capabilities ( 2 totally separate things),etc based on percentage of population of the UK as a whole. If the UK borrowing continues to increase despite austerity measures, as many experts predict it will, then Scotland's expenditure on its share of the debt repayments will increase also. Now this becomes a catch 22 situation for Scotland. In order to provide income to service it's debts and social responsibilities, the money has to come from somewhere. Three options present themselves, increased taxation in whatever form, go cap in hand to various financial institutions for funding, or request that the UK government and the Bank of England intervene with bail out finance.
Increasing taxation overtly is never a popular choice with politicians, so to begin with there would most likely be an increase in stealth taxes along with cuts in public services, as is currently the case. This will only slow down the rate of decline for a while and then the choice of 3 will return. The most likely choice will depend on the make up of the Scottish government at this time, a predominantly nationalist government will likely approach alternative lenders for funding due to sheer resentment at their treatment during the 2014 referendum (and would likely have little other choice than to do so, although with no tangible assets to use as a lever, not sure who would be willing to lend), a more UK leaning government would approach their natural bedfellows and go to the UK government for a bail out. Either way the end result would be the same, as any lending from either source would result in the same conditions being imposed re privatisation of public services etc and an inevitable rise in taxation to cover the costs of increased borrowing,and so the cycle continues. Of course, if Scotland had voted for independence and had control over the oil revenues,it would be in the same situation re privatisation of public services etc as it would have still had to have borrowed in order to set up the required infrastructure to run a successful independent country, but at least the revenues MAY have been enough to pay of this debt within a reasonable timeframe IF managed correctly, and at this point possibly started to enjoy a relatively decent level of prosperity.
Now for the UK.
Firstly the Barnett formula. Contrary to what people think, this formula does not apply only to Scotland but to the whole of the UK, it was designed in an attempt to equalise the distribution of public spending by giving a higher proportion of funding to areas that were deemed to be "poorer" as an average at the expense of the "richer" areas to give all areas a more level playing field,(very much a simplification). What this means is that places like the North East of England received a higher level of public funding than the relatively more prosperous South East of England as did Scotland. With the abolition in Scotland of the Barnett formula, it would be inconceivable that this formula as is could remain in place for the rest of the UK, as Scotland,although with 'devo max', is still part of the UK,and rules must be applied evenly across the board.
The Barnett formula could conceivably be replaced with another method of funding distribution within the rest of the UK, but if so would probably not be as generous to some areas in these times of austerity as previous. This would again lead to further cuts in public expenditure in these affected areas with the inevitable loss of vital public services and associated private supply business and hence jobs. These areas are then into the cycle of having to increase public spending on the benefit system, but with less funding to do so. Without the powers to increase income taxation directly, these areas will have to resort to yet more stealth taxation on the populous, for example increasing the council tax on private property,increasing tax in business property etc.
This then becomes a problem for the UK government,reduced level of tax revenues but an unwillingness to borrow more money to keep the country afloat. There is no gold reserves left to sell as a short term fix,if corporation tax is raised it will deter investment and possibly force companies that can to relocate to more 'suitable' territories, what to do? Raise individual tax rates will be the answer to that, raid the pension pot again a la Gordon Brown and hope that gets the UK by for a while.
Eventually at sometime in the future there will be 2 options available, to start printing money again in the hope that it does not cause hyperinflation and basically devalue the currency, which it will. The crash and burn of Greece's economy will be nothing compared to the UK in this scenario.
The other option is that the EU will come to the rescue with a bail out at this point, but there will be serious concessions to be made for this due to the fact of the 2017? Referendum on EU membership will have been held by then. This will be a vote to stay within the EU, but again by a narrow margin, and the EU commission will be in no mood to play nice with a country that only just wants to stay within its organisation. One of the condition of this bail out, where it to happen, will be to join the common currency with all the loss of control over interest rates, taxation etc that that entails.
Meanwhile in the UK, the rise of the politically far right leaning parties in (coalition?) power will lead to a corresponding rise in radicalisation and separatism of disaffected 'minorities' with the inevitable results but at least the security services and police will be busy.

Anyway, many other things that I have left out in my rant, I'm sure people will point out where I'm wrong, but hey nobody can predict the future and I sure hope it does not turn out as grim as I write here.

Have a nice day

precis?

That's a lot of words. Is there a summary?

In summary, it would appear we're all doomed 🙂

When he got in his house its pumping disco

At the end of the day, Alex Salmond must be laughing his tits off. I personally think he's pulled off the biggest coup in British electoral history.

Nah

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is the political genius of Ed Miliband and the labour party. We've now had CMD preening on the steps of Downing St like the cat who got the cream, and already talking about an English parliament which will completely shaft the labour party electorally in England, all a result of a campaign that the labour party largely fought for him. Nicely done!

Yeah but gonna be tricky to get Labour to agree to anything because of that.

..and then they become the demons who deny the scots devo-max and are also shafted electorally in Scotland. Result!

From Ed's 'meeting' with the Scottish electorate. To prove that he could meet the real people. From the Guardian sketch....

[i]The exit to the mall loomed and Miliband still hadn't met a single Scottish voter. In desperation, he dived into one of the few remaining shops; a hairdresser's called SuperCuts. Of all the places and of all the times … Miliband's instinct for the own goal was as sure-footed as ever.

A brief conversation and then he was away. Away over the pedestrian walkway and into the car park, where his minders were waiting to take him home. À la Recherche du Miliband Perdu done and dusted in under five minutes.[/i]

Spot the difference....

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Dwaine Dibbly?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is the political genius of Ed Miliband and the labour party. We've now had CMD preening on the steps of Downing St like the cat who got the cream, and already talking about an English parliament which will completely shaft the labour party electorally in England, all a result of a campaign that the labour party largely fought for him. Nicely done!

From the Osborne currency thread

Cameron, with a lot of help from Gordon Brown, has set Labour a really nasty conundrum. Support constitutional change. and face the prospect of being unable to govern England; or oppose it, and fight a rainbow coalition of all the other parties who want it.

@nstpaul - Clarity, Brevity, Impact.

A touch ironic me posting such a thing but you cut/paste is far too long.

Well from my own point of view I see the no vote as a depressing confirmation that any form of radicalism or appetite for real change is dead. It would appear that people living in the western 'democracies' are content to sacrifice any form of influence and self-determination to the political and corporate establishment in return for a just about acceptable standard of living. I can't help but think that they will live to regret it.

good grief! every one of us born in to the western world already won the lottery! you're to55ing it off on the internet, when you could be walking 3 miles back from the nearest contaminated water hole, or abut to die from Ebola.

'impressive turnout' is what i take away from this. goes to show what you can do if you can get people interested. hopefully the politicians will think on.

theres no chance Wales will accept anything less than what Scotland is getting.

an English parliament which will completely shaft the labour party electorally in England

You're going to have to explain how that one works to me.

Or are you simply referring to this myth:
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/well-scotland-didnt-get-independance-thread/page/6?replies=260#post-6325070

'impressive turnout' is what i take away from this. goes to show what you can do if you can get people interested. hopefully the politicians will think on.

I keep wondering how "non-politicians" can make use of that. Sadly the reality is that the general public will still vote for a monkey with a red rosette rather than Fred from the other side of their town who has great ideas and vision, but they've never heard of. How do you get a government of non-politicians who aren't just corporate lackeys, and are actually capable of running a country - more to the point, if such people exist do they want the job?

I don't think there is much appetite for more Welsh devolution.

A fair point, 5e, but I would expect more power would draw more interest and hence better people. Well, hope maybe.

A fair point, 5e, but I would expect more power would draw more interest and hence better people. Well, hope maybe.

To what end? Wales has more state employees than Cuba, and they work for the British state. The Welsh state would have to magic up an awful lot of jobs to start separating itself from England. You'd need a very different type of politician to figure that one out.

EDIT: actually you may have won me over. I look forward to the low tax Free Wales.

aracer - redo your calculation without Welsh MPs and I believe, haven't checked, there are only three post war governments - 45, 97 and 01. That is why it is a horrible conundrum.

Never mind take the blue out of the union flag, take the blue out of the saltire.

[img] [/img]

I'm inclined to agree on the Devo Max front with binners.

Had he included it, it would have split the vote all ways, SNP types line up for independence, many folk (me included) g for a degree of self-determination within the Union, the unionists et al plump for No, result chaos.

What's happened is he's saved face for his own lot (Independence or bust) and achieved a belter of a result. Chapeau. He's like a deal of farmers I know, all slow speech and a mild image, then you realise that without appearing to do so, you've signed your granny and all your family over in perpetuity..

Convince the people that they'll be better off under the status quo, even though their living standards and freedoms have been eroded under that system for the past 30 years.

Living standards are [b]spectacularly[/b] better than they where 30 years ago.
Our freedoms are also commensurately greater as we have the money to travel as well as access to so much more information via internet than we had before we are much more able to make up our own minds.

Just a quick question. How long before this all start up again?

a lifetime.
dont know if thats a ned buckie pisshead lifetime or a westminster MP who cycles lifetime?

Salmond has delayed his speech from 10 am to 2pm to 4 pm, either he is the best bluffer in the history of the world or he is facing up to something he did not want to contemplate. I think the baton might be handed on.

Just a quick question. How long before this all start up again?

I reckon 5-10 years. Time for the baby boomers to start dieing off, and a new group of radical young people to get properly organised.

The Welsh state would have to magic up an awful lot of jobs to start separating itself from England.

I'm not advocating separatism, of course.

Lifetime => generation => political generation

Hmmmm......wonder how that would have sounded if the result was the other way round?

Swinney or Strugeon?

Alex Salmond steps down as First Minister of Scotland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29277527

leaves the door open for Jimmy Krankie to ascend to their rightful role as First Minister.

My immediate reaction is that this is a shame. Never a particular fan of his, but what would have been good to see was both sides get behind him in holding Westminster to their promises. Whatever his faults, he's probably Scottish politics biggest hitter. If the necessary changes to the UK political landscape come about over time, then he and every Yes voter who put all that pressure on London to loosen their grip on the country will have played a big part in forcing that change.

[i]I reckon 5-10 years. Time for the baby boomers to start dieing off, and a new group of radical young people to get properly organised.[/i]

In your dreams Ben.....50 years minimum!

Does seem a shame him going, he should see through Devo-max first as that will be his real legacy.

I wonder. The leaders of the other delegations to the constitutional meetings will have no love for Salmond, he's managed to upset them all at some point so maybe he's going because he's unable/unwilling to work with the English/Welsh/N.Irish delegates to build a new Union.
If he can't do it then he has to step aside for someone who can do it for all of Scotland.

Ive said before I find him repellent, but watching his speech now I can see he's absolutely broken & I can't help feeling for him.

Ive said before I find him repellent

Can't disagree with that, but you have to admire his as a politician, in a league of his own compared to Westminster.

Of course he is broken....not as broken though as the rest of us, if his deceit and lies had led to a different result. He manipulated the truth in a manner not seen since the € vote. So I hate to see anyone suffer, but hard to feel any sorrow given what we have just been subjected to.

Great politician? - everything lined up for him, a weak opposition and years to prepared. And he decided to resort to deceit and lies. Not even vaguely answering the most basic of questions. Shocking.

I spoke to the prime minister today and, although he reiterated his intention to proceed as he has outlined, he would not commit to a second reading vote by 27th March on a Scotland bill.

Well what a surprise. So in only a few hours the tories are not only back-tracking on promises made, they're turning the issue around to benefit themselves by way of an English parliament. And all along the labour party have been naive and complicit allies.

I reckon 5-10 years. Time for the baby boomers to start dieing off, and a new group of radical young people to get properly organised.

When asked by the BBC's James Cook if his dream of independence is now dead, Mr Salmond says: "I think a referendum is a once in a generation process - that's my opinion."
He goes on to say that he does not envisage another constitutional referendum in the "future we can see".

Apparently he didn't share Ben's optimism.

I reckon 5-10 years. Time for the baby boomers to start dieing off, and a new group of radical young people to get properly organised.

In your dreams Ben.....50 years minimum!

Now for that political reinvigoration to ensure that the SNP never hold power in Scotland again. PR will allow tactical voting by us Unionists to make that happen.

Alec is probably looking forward to a career having the mick taken out of him by Ian Hislop on Have I Got New for You. I might start watching it again.

And he decided to resort to deceit and lies. Not even vaguely answering the most basic of questions. Shocking.

There isn't a UK politician alive who doesn't fit that description!

Politics is a game, the aim of which is to get others to agree with you, and anything goes in terms of how you get there.

Well what a surprise. So in only a few hours the tories are not only back-tracking on promises made, they're turning the issue around to benefit themselves by way of an English parliament.

So who's the smart politician?

About bloody time that this was considered in a balanced manner - too long considered as an issue that was only relevant to Scotland. Yes, the three main party leaders panicked. That had no authority to suggest what they did and it is obvious that would have to put to Westminster and the rUK public. Uttterly proper and correct. labour now have a real problem though.

As the BBC, not a single Scottish paper supported him. In the end even the herald saw through him

Alex, take a rest. You and we need it.

and anything goes in terms of how you get there.

Sad reflection on politics. I don't agree.

I think the point people are missing when they say 'in 10 years time a lot of no voters will have died off.' Is that people's opinions change with age. I suspect that a lot of the way the vote went with respect to age has nothing to do with the individuals concerned. 70 year olds will vote the same way in 10 years time as 70 year olds did now.

labour now have a real problem though

For once I agree with you. If Miliband survives this cluster***k I'll be amazed. He and the Labour party have basically campaigned for their own destruction and have been completely played by the tories. Cameron must be giggling into his dubonnet.

That's nonsense footflaps. Most politicians are not renowned deceitful liars. Which is one of the reasons why Tony Blair stands out as a particularly deceitful liar and why he was given the moniker Bliar by some.

So here we have a man who played a key role in bringing about devolution, led his party from being a total mess to running the country (and remains the only majority first minister Scotland has ever had), brought scottish independence closer than anyone outwith the SNP believed possible (and many within it), then had all 3 westminster parties running around like headless chickens, extracted promises for further devolution even though it was ruled out on day 1 of the referendum process, created a campaign that's brought record voter turnouts, and just possibly, planted the seed for a federal UK. And now steps down as party leader at the age of 60.

Yep, what a loser 😆

Apparently there were international observers at the count...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/russia-calls-foul-scottish-referendum

created a campaign that's brought record voter turnouts

Well NW, you could say that for the Emperor right up until the little boy said, "he's got no clothes on." The end of a political career marked by deceit and no answers to the questions he was preparing for his political lifetime. Came to play with the big boys and was finally exposed.

The biggest irony of the whole thing is that the No side turned it into a worry about uncertainty. That was, at the root, the No campaign - independence is too uncertain. The Labour posters at the polling stations even said "It's not worth the risk"

Now we have a No vote, and what do we have? Massive uncertainty. Cameron is already rolling back on his promises, Miliband has said he won't commit to the plans of more powers for Scotland, we literally have no idea if a Scotland is getting the status quo, more powers, Devo max, federalisation or what.

The No voters were played and good.

And all those people who said "I'd vote for independence but I don't like Alex Salmond" - they must be feeling pretty stupid right now.

The worst thing about the campaign is that bullshit and fear won the day and the people lapped it up, more powers... 😆

I shall point and laugh if I ever hear flower of scotland again, as the tories gain a majority next year and then start systematically destroying scotland.

Ah yes, 'everyone who disagrees with me is stupid'.

Need to work on that graciousness in defeat thing a bit more you two.

seosamh77 - Member
The worst thing about the campaign is that bullshit and fear won the day and the people lapped it up, more powers...
I shall point and laugh if I ever hear flower of scotla

Easy pal, at least wait until we have all had a bottle of wine before that shit starts again.

grum - Member
Ah yes, 'everyone who disagrees with me is stupid'.

Need to work on that graciousness in defeat thing a bit more you two.

I'm not bitter at westminster or anyone else, just no voters, and I make no apologies for that.

If I was a westminster politician, I'd be pissing myself behind the scenes.

I think Salmond under estimated the intelligence of the 16 to 18yr olds who he gave the vote. I think they saw through him and past all of the rhetoric. They are more outward looking than inward. I also think the Scottish housewife played a major part. I wonder how many voted against their male counterparts once in the booth. Stability is very important when you are running a household and bringing up children etc. There is only so many times you can listen to " A fairer and more just society" as a main policy. There was just no meat to anything he said.

Apart from this process being very devisive I do think a lot of good will come from this over time and hopefully give us all more of a say over the running of our Nation.

Lets just hope we don't get a surge of English Nationalism rearing it's ugly head.

mon to ****, it's 12 hours and the new powers already lie in tatters!

Is there any evidence to suggest that significant numbers of people voted No because of the proposed new powers? Opinion polls generally favoured No before they were ever mentioned.

Inbred456 - Member
I think Salmond under estimated the intelligence of the 16 to 18yr olds who he gave the vote. I think they saw through him and past all of the rhetoric. They are more outward looking than inward.

Lets just hope we don't get a surge of English Nationalism rearing it's ugly head.

"English Votes For English Laws" tagline bandied about so far.

We're already there

grum - Member
mon to ****, it's 12 hours and the new powers already lie in tatters!
Is there any evidence to suggest that significant numbers of people voted no because of the proposed new powers?

Note the first date on this:

[img] [/img]

I have a feeling we'll be saying "we told you so" for a long time.

As a country we will get what we deserve.

I'll take that as a 'no' then seosamh77 (haha!)