You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Where's the party now?
Cracking news and a Smokey supper will not be classed as foreign food.
What does happen next? Callmedave is going to make a statement which is purported to be an outline for further devolution not just north of the border, but also for other regions including within England. What though for Scotland and independence? Salmond's speech seemed to suggest this wasn't the end, just maybe for this generation, but how many of the yes voters will have their needs met by further devolution, and is 45% where they'll top out at as a result, and it'll track back from there?
The Scotch people have voted, now let that be the end of it.
hmm no this is just the start of it, and quite right too. Moving on quickly, pretending it didn't happen would be extraordinarily stupid, even for Westminster.
I'm hoping the momentum and conversation continues and we see proper constitutional change for the whole of the uk. Everyone is sick of that exclusive club in London, not just Scotland.
Moving on quickly, pretending it didn't happen would be extraordinarily stupid, even for Westminster.
Agreed, and it won't happen. Cameron will dine out on this for a decade. It's media gold for next year's election.
Everyone is sick of that exclusive club in London, not just Scotland.
As someone who works in Westminster, I can assure you that my area - food exports - has made huge efforts to be nothing but helpful to the Scottish Government for years.
Don't think things have just ended!
Its interesting, isn't it?
1)Yes were clearly ahead
2)Panic
3)The 3 main parties promise a form of Devo Max (an option excluded by Cameron in 2011) and not on the ballot paper
4)The Yes bubble collapses
So, clearly, if Devo Max isn't delivered, and people stay engaged and remain undistracted, then Scotland gets change. It was promised....?
Simples?
Everyone is sick of that exclusive club in London, not just Scotland.
^this
Should be interesting watching the folks who have declared they will move abroad if we dont get independance look to find utopia.
Three folk have popped up on my facebook feed this morning saying they are moving away now.
Wonder where they will find this utopia.
Lots of people looked at the ballot paper and changed their mind.
Everyone is sick of that exclusive club in London
It's not exclusive at all. Any British national can get elected to it.
That right Ernie?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/02/labour-party-selection-process-falkirk
A small selection for you of how the main parties choose candidates.
Red firebrand from the streets, full of a need to correct injustices? No chance.
That right Ernie?
Yes that's right. It isn't obligatory to vote for the Labour candidate.
Although overall it's 55% vs 45%, so far, only 4 out of 31 reported councils have voted yes. That's a pretty resounding slam of the door.
Trailrat, Utopia can be found in London, obviously !
I think now will be the time to judge Westminster on it's actions, if the promises aren't delivered I don't think it'll be too long before there's another referendum.
Hopefully the main outcome will be change for the better for all parts of the UK.
Yeah what's a generation in the grand scheme of things?
LOLing at the "this is just the start" comments. How naive. If anyone thinks that the govt will allow another referendum in our lifetimes they are going to be very disappointed.
How much did this whole thing cost the UK taxpayer?
Right then now we need to send in the troops, Dundee will be first to raise to the ground as they had the highest 'yes' vote then we can address that little pocket around Glasgow. Oh and mount Salmond to the front of the first tank... 😉
Seriously though it was pretty close and it worrying to think that the population of Scotland is so split. Hopefully we can do better and make them glad they voted no.
Lots of people looked at the ballot paper and [s]changed their mind[/s] voted how they'd intended all along.
❓
Whatever the story behind the numbers though, this -
Hopefully we can do better and make them glad they voted no.
cant believe there are so few people in scotland .... thats including all those 16 -17 voters too. More people watch strictly on a saturady evening!
[i]Seriously though it was pretty close and it worrying to think that the population of Scotland is so split. Hopefully we can do better and make them glad they voted no.[/i]
It was closer than I thought it would be, but with such Nationalistic fervour being engendered, the 'yes' voters were mostly the emotive ones. If we, (the English) were 10% of the pop and Edinburgh made all the decisions, we'd almost certainly feel the same. It's head over hearts and sometimes you have to swallow your pride to take the right route for all....which fortunately they did.
Let's hope no one messes with the formula
The architect of a controversial funding formula for Scotland has described his own policy as a "terrible mistake" after David Cameron pledged to keep it despite a revolt from Tory MPs.The leaders of all three main political parties have pledged to continue using the formula, which sees Scotland receive £1,623 per head more than the rest of the UK, if Scotland votes to stay in the Union.
If the unholy alliance of Dave, Gordon, Ed and Nick deliver on their hastily-sketched-on-the-back-of-a-fag-packet promises, then this could be the best possible outcome for everyone.
Thats a big if though!
Britain is the most centralised country in the developed world. Westminster has run Britain like a fiefdom, issuing dictats to 'the regions' like some imperial power. Its not just the Scots who've been on the receiving end of that, and who are heartily sick of it! I notice Daves speech made commitments to devolved power to the cities as well as Norn Ireland and Wales
Heres hoping that this is genuine democratic change, with real teeth, and not a window dressing exercise that just lumbers us all with another level of bureaucrats and politicians to pay for.
I'm not confident
[i]cant believe there are so few people in scotland .... thats including all those 16 -17 voters too. More people watch strictly on a saturady evening![/i]
there's probably another couple of mil living in England!
I think now will be the time to judge Westminster on it's actions, if the promises aren't delivered I don't think it'll be too long before there's another referendum.
Hopefully the main outcome will be change for the better for all parts of the UK.
Yes
Gotta say I have a new-found respect for Gordon Brown. Never liked him before but he put the Union ahead of personal ambitions.
[i]Hopefully we can do better and make them glad they voted no.[/i]
I'm not sure what more 'we' can do.
The problem is not that the Scottish need their own autonomous government it's just that the Westminster parliament makes *all* UK voters feel disengaged from the political process and powerless to affect the decisions made.
It's shouldn't be about the English trying to appease the Scots, it should be about all politicians (local and national) convincing citizens that voting
a) matters
and
b) makes a difference
The turnout last night shows that when people believe their opinion matters and that casting a vote will affect their lives they will become involved.
The Police Commissioner election fiasco with less than 10% turnout shows what happens when politicians fail to listen to what people want.
Interesting that Orkney and Shetland both voted 65% against. The wise islanders must have seen though Salmond's slimey trickery.... or maybe Braveheart wasn't shown in cinemas there.
Perhaps Orkney and Shetland thought if Scotland was independent there would be less defence against a viking invasion.
I think Salmond's greatest failing in this was not securing the midge vote. He would have had a landslide.
On a slightly more frivolous note;
Could they not do a more football style post match analysis.
"Salmond played a blinder but they don't have strength in depth on their defence and he was let down"
"Darling lacked the charisma of his opposite number but he plodded on and led his team to victory"
"The late substitution of Gordon Brown for Campbell, Cameron and Milliband was a brilliant tactical decision, he deserved his man of the match award"
I wonder what the vote looks like when broken down into age groups? Anyone know where that could be found?
I reckon the <25s and >60s will have been more pro-independence and the rest more pro-union.
LOLing at the "this is just the start" comments. How naive. If anyone thinks that the govt will allow another referendum in our lifetimes they are going to be very disappointed.
'Just the start' doesn't refer to Scottish Independence, it refers to UK constitutional reform.
Gotta say I have a new-found respect for Gordon Brown. Never liked him before but he put the Union ahead of personal ambitions.
I feel the opposite! I wish the **** had got his priorities sorted years ago, and put his efforts into delivering on the promised changes to the Blairite agenda, instead of just looking like a rabbit in the headlights once he got in the position he'd spent his life scheming to get into. Then going off in a massive sulk when the electorate delivered their verdict on his abject failure.
He's very good at gobbing off. His record on delivering on his bombastic rhetoric and stated intentions is absolutely woeful! Something worth bearing in mind.
just looking like a rabbit in the headlights once he got in the position he'd spent his life scheming to get into.
I don't think you appreciate how little power individuals have, and how much they have to fit into the party machine. It's the same for US presidents - they talk about change, but they end up having far less power than they'd like when they get in.
Bloody great turnout Scotland.
Thats got to be something to celebrate 😀
Molls - Read Damian McBrides memoirs of being with Gordon when he finally got into number 10. They're damning! Everyone was filled with optimism about a change in direction. Thinking that he must have done all that scheming, and bullying for a reason. Then realising there was no grand plan. No ideology. No agenda. Nothing!
He just wanted to be PM and thought it was just sooooooooo not fair that Tony got to be instead. That was it! The limit of his ambition was that he thought he had the right to be the biggest swinging dick. It was just petty playground stuff. Then look what happened? He staggered from one crisis to the next until he was booted out. Then he sulked!
He's a pathetic, tragic figure, so I wouldn't be expecting him to actually deliver much more now. All mouth and no trousers, who's political legacy is nearly bankrupting the country! Now we're expecting him to come riding to everyones rescue? Yeah, right....
No chance he could have learned from his experience, perhaps?
I see Dave is going with the same model of the US and A then rather than the USSR.
That's kinda my point Binners - he always came across like that but he seemed to put his head up above the parapet this time.
He's a stubborn egotist who believes he's always right. Since being booted out all he's done is have a massive sulk that would put Nicholas Anelka to shame
Does that seem like someone who's embarked on a voyage of self discovery, and critical self-analysis to you? He's always massively over-estimated his own abilities. And he'll fail now, like he's always failed. We'll all end up with some cobbled together nonsense that changes nothing
tbh i think the only person that came out of this morning looking good was salmond - and thats from someone who detests the man.
His speech after his defeat - if he manages to deliver on it could very well be his legacy.
binners I think you're being very harsh on GB. He inherited a poisoned chalice and was vilified in the media. Not sure I would trust Damien McBride's account either. I'd agree GB should have been more bold but he was doomed whatever happened.
And blaming him for the global economic meltdown is a classic piece of Tory spin.
trail_rat - I think thats been a constant theme through the whole campaign. I can't stand him either on a personal level, but you've got to have some respect for him, and what he's done. He's forced the complete re-negotiation of the British constitution. If there was one? which there isn't. so now there will be. Lets not underestimate that. We can all become citizens, instead of subjects
We all should be grateful to him for that!
Who remembers John Major's Citizens' Charter?
[i]He's a pathetic, tragic figure, so I wouldn't be expecting him to actually deliver much more now. All mouth and no trousers, who's political legacy is nearly bankrupting the country! [/i]
😀
Well, whatever he is, he got top marks for that speech the other day. Remember, this whole referendum thing was based on emotion, not facts, so he got it spot on.
And blaming him for the global economic meltdown is a classic piece of Tory spin.
I can't see that up there. You must have your red tinted glasses on.
He was at the helm when the wheels fell off the economy. GB didn't think it was serious; it would blow over.
He must have been looking at the figures with his bad eye.
grum - as chancellor GB was in awe of the city, gave them everything they wanted, and more, then issued toadying, cringe-worthy eulogies to them. While not giving a flying **** about manufacturing or any other area of the economy. So he carries a huge responsibility for what happened, and what he should have seen coming, as that was his job! And maybe he would have done if he wasn't so pathetically fawning to The City, and blinked about what they were [i]actually[/i] up to
And as PM he was an absolute disaster
So going back to my original point - I wouldn't rely on him to deliver. He's as much a part of the Westminster establishment as Cameron. And their interests will come before everyone else's, make no mistake
Binners has it smack on. GB was a dreadful chancellor and an even worse PM.
Secular Federated Republic with an elected second chamber and an elected President.
Yes please.
Let's go.
Is anyone suggesting that GB is coming back into mainstream politics then? 😯
I really had hoped we'd seen the last of him.
Well, whatever he is, he got top marks for that speech the other day. Remember, this whole referendum thing was based on emotion, not facts, so he got it spot on.
Which is what I was getting at. I never thought much of the man beforehand but I thought he came across very passionately and I am sure he won the No Vote a few votes with his involvement.
Arise Sir Alistair and Sir Gordon...
Binners - a bit of cynicism is a good thing, but your absolute trashing of everything to ever come out of anywhere political is wearing thin. You don't sound objective, you sound like a ranting loon.
It's just too easy to slag off Westminster as some kind of evil cabal, but it's just not true. It's incompetent more than anything else.
Are you saying Westminster are looking after their own interests? What might these be? How can 'Westminster' as a whole have any kind of common interest?
Gotta say I have a new-found respect for Gordon Brown. Never liked him before but he put [s]the Union[/s] Labour ahead of personal ambitions.
Don't forget that labour would be screwed without Scotland.
ok, so now that scotland has voted, would everyone mind awfully if the other 95% of the population of the united kingdom could now vote on the same issue please?
ta
Are you saying Westminster are looking after their own interests? What might these be? How can 'Westminster' as a whole have any kind of common interest?
You really are hopelessly naive at times Molls. I view 'The Establishment' with utter contempt, because that is all they're worthy of. The three main parties are all in the thrall of a totally discredited corporatist philosophy that suits nobody but those at the top, who benefit enormously. And they simply refuse to look past it. Their self-serving agendas have been indistinguishable for decades.
They ruthlessly defend their own pampered positions, while exclusively representing the interests of global financiers, and corporate lobbyists. The actual interests of their citizens/subjects are frankly incidental and of little significance.
Why do you think they looked so panicked last week? This is people demanding [i]actual[/i] change. And nothing scares them more than that. They want things exactly as they are. No change. As it suits them quite nicely, thank you. And GB is just as complicit in that as Boris Johnson or any Tory. Tony Blair - who apparently was a labour MP - is the very living embossment of this morality-free grasping, corporate fawning greed, and self-interest!
We're desperate for this, can't you see?
Quite obviously we weren't.
Don't forget that labour would be screwed without Scotland.
Ohh yes definitely agreed.
45% were. Now the fact that that part of the 'united' kingdom - as well as many other parts of this sceptred isle - is evenly divided is plain to see.
It's not over...
They ruthlessly defend their own pampered positions, while exclusively representing the interests of global financiers, and corporate lobbyists. The actual interests of their citizens/subjects are frankly incidental and of little significance.
You talk, all I hear is one-sided spin. As I mentioned previously, you can add embitterment and vitriol to anything but it doens't really help figure out what's actually happening - in fact it makes it a lot harder.
Go back and nibble some more grass. Baaaaaa...
Awwww bless... think they give a toss about you? Like your interests even register? Wake up Molls, for gods sake!
All 3 parties represent exclusively the interests of Corporate lobbyists and global financiers. If you can't see that then you're letting your naiveté and misplaced optimism blind you to whats staring you in the face!
[i]Tony Blair - who apparently was a labour MP - is the very living embossment of this morality-free grasping, corporate fawning greed, and self-interest![/i]
Bet you voted for him though Binners? 8)
Why do you think they looked so panicked last week? This is people demanding actual change. And nothing scares them more than that. They want things exactly as they are. No change. As it suits them quite nicely, thank you. And GB is just as complicit in that as Boris Johnson or any Tory
Whilst I can agree with the sentiment in general terms, surely Dave & The T's would've benefitted more from Scotland voting Yes? They would probably have been in Government for years if Labour had lost their Scottish voters.
I see the No vote as saving the world from such an occurrence and, hopefully, a catalyst for a better deal for all.
[i]It's not over...[/i]
It is for you! 😀
I mean lets look at the facts, 1.5m of 70 odd m people and you had your chance. They won'y be stupid enough to let such a minority cause such a hoo ha again!
You talk, all I hear is one-sided spin. As I mentioned previously, you can add embitterment and vitriol to anything but it doens't really help figure out what's actually happening - in fact it makes it a lot harder
its because you aren't listening to anything that isn't expressed on your terms....
its because you aren't listening to anything that isn't expressed on your terms....
What's that supposed to mean?
The reason why the Westminster elite were bricking themselves was the prospect of losing Scotland's oil reserves as collateral for the UK treasury borrowing. Up until that point they were perfectly content for the Scots to rubber stamp the status quo.
binners - why do you want to stay here? You must hate every day that passes!
All 3 parties represent exclusively the interests of Corporate lobbyists
binners is quite right. I look forward to a political party that supports the free market and not a tax-funded corporate system of chronyism.
mudshark - Member
binners - why do you want to stay here? You must hate every day that passes!
I'm actually quite a happy bunny. Thinking our political system is only worthy of contempt, and generally being happy aren't incompatible really, are they? Its not like its the most important thing in life, is it? That'd be...
[img] 
?1330031408[/img]
😀
grum - Member
binners I think you're being very harsh on GB. He inherited a poisoned chalice and was vilified in the media.
You are kidding - they achieved budget surpluses in the early days and could have managed the economy in a sensible fashion BUT hubris and incompetent took over.
And blaming [s]him[/s] banks for the global economic meltdown is a classic piece of political spin.
Well that was pretty close. I think they could have won it with a more intelligent, articulate campaign. Giving actual answers to genuine questions and concerns rather than just saying "hope over fear" or "you sound like a unionist" or "project fear" or whatever
It reminded me a bit of Lois Griffin in this episode of family guy!
What's that supposed to mean?
jesus, really??
ok, and I'll keep it brief because I'm at work; you struggle to see past people's emotive language. You dismiss it as spin whereas its usually well thought out personal opinion that's condensed into a few words for brevity on an internet forum. You seem to need everything drenched in facts and figures before you can accept it as a valid argument. The really ironic thing Molgrips is that ANY position can be supported by numbers which makes your approach extremely naïve. That's the real spin, and you don't even see it...
I am pleased GB remains as one, but disappointed as a yes vote would have made for exiting times and would have been interesting as an observer looking from the outside in.
Now we will see if Dave can deliver on the promises he made.
Now we will see if Dave can deliver on the promises he made.
Doesn't have the best track record, does he? Mind you, we've got Nick - the Deputy PM himself. He signed the pledge for change too. I seem to recall he's signed pledges in the past though. Hmmmmmm
[img] 
[/img]
And Molls wonders why I'm cynical?
On a more worrying note: me, Wopster and thm seem to be in agreement on something 😯
Well from my own point of view I see the no vote as a depressing confirmation that any form of radicalism or appetite for real change is dead. It would appear that people living in the western 'democracies' are content to sacrifice any form of influence and self-determination to the political and corporate establishment in return for a just about acceptable standard of living. I can't help but think that they will live to regret it.
just for you binners - he said sorry, so that's ok then.
I wonder if there'll be another one when Cameron doesn't deliver on these "extra powers"
On a more worrying note: me, Wopster and thm seem to be in agreement on something
Well, we agree on the nature of the problem. I doubt our solutions align even remotely.
Still, small mercies... 8)