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Scotroutes, do you have a mirror in your house?
😀 Typical yS behaviour and quite amusing really. 😀
Avoids answering question though but helps those of south of the border to understand what life north of the border has been like. For that, we thank you Scotroutes.
So how many lies have been identified so far? Simple question.
Who else could have done it but westminster? I am not sure what the point is there ernie tbh
Really ? You can't figure out that my point was that Westminster has a proven track record of devolving power to the Scottish people ? How astonishing.
Yes but Ernie, that is really very inconvenient. As we have seen throughout, the truth is difficult to swallow for some.
I did genuinely miss that as your point.
Apologies.
I dont think one devolution in the entire union is a great record tbh but it is better than the one in Ireland.
I assume, given the new statement, they will deliver.
I dont think one devolution in the entire union is a great record tbh
Don't you ? I think it's not too bad. 300 years ago the Scottish Parliament didn't even bother asking the Scottish people how they felt when they decided to ratify the Act of Union. During most of the time since then there has been little evidence that the majority of Scots have wanted independence or devolution.
Things have changed in recent decades and Westminster has responded. In 1979 a Labour government asked the Scottish people if they wished to have devolution, unfortunately only 30 odd percent of the registered electorate answered yes.
20 years later a New Labour government asked the same question again but this time lowered the bar and it was a huge Yes vote.
17 years after that a Tory government allowed Scots to decide whether they wanted to separate from the rest of the UK and they said no by a clear margin.
Both main political parties have shown a commitment to listening to the wishes of the Scottish people, I'm not sure why you expect more than that.
Thm both Cmd and Ed (don't Call Me Dave) seem to have withheld significant pieces of information from the public.
I am in favour of an English parliament and devolution to the regions. For Scotland I would rather have independence but for the moment that ship has sailed.
Ernie there is a long history of support for Scottish independence going back to about the middle of the 19th century.
Of course there's a long history of support for Scottish independence, in fact going back to the Act of Union - wasn't the vote in the Scottish Parliament simular to 55/45 in favour ? I said : During most of the time since then there has been little evidence that the majority of Scots have wanted independence or devolution.
BTW fwiw I don't really think you can question Westminster's commitment to democracy. I actually agree with ernie. And I've often had discussions with friends from the O6 telling them that the GFA is the way forward(I've actually used the Scottish referendum as proof), as Westminster's greatest weakness, from a republican point of view, is a belief in law and democracy(on what is classed as home shores at least)
Problem with the pledge is that it isn't a complete pledge, all it does is take it up to a 2nd reading and then leaves it entirely up to the next parliament to ratify if they choose.
So its not particularly a cast iron guarantee of powers. (Which it was made out to be). And that's before you take into the account that there was nothing really specified, so it can be a token gesture and that's the pledge fulfilled, which will solve nothing.
Basically I can get brought up periodically over the next few months as each deadlines passes. But the deadlines aren't really the problem, its content and an incomplete timetable.
So its not particularly a cast iron guarantee of powers. (Which it was made out to be). And that's before you take into the account that there was nothing really specified, so it can be a token gesture and that's the pledge fulfilled, which will solve nothing.
It's a cast iron guarantee of extra devolved powers, but no, there's no specifics, just like there were no specifics about what would have happened in post-referendum Scotland had it been a Yes vote. But everyone knew that on Thursday when they went to the polling stations so no one was hoodwinked.
I agree that ratification after the next general election would appear pose a problem for the doubters, but you can't simply cancel the next general election which is less than 12 months away, and you can't rush things through in just a few weeks - things are being rushed as it is.
None of this suggests a lack of honesty on the part of the 3 main parties just a reality of the limitations of a tight timetable. And there is no doubt at all that after the next general election the 3 main parties will have a majority in the Commons, so it will be ratified.
If any further powers were granted to Scotland without proper consultation and agreement of the parliament of the UK then it would be undemocratic and not acceptible. The challenge is to come to the table and work out a better future for the UK together as that is the way the vote went,
Tbh its a wait and see situation. It'll not be solved till after the GE. Nationalists will obviously use that time to gain political capital.
My questions:
1)Who gets to decide what's just English? Would this mean purely reserved matters?
this whole question is not a tricky one. The legislation that MPs vote on specifies clearly where it would have effect. the powers that have been devolved to the Scottish parliament are clearly articulated. whether it's a good idea or not is a political question, but as a technical question it's no big deal to separate out the legislation.
If any further powers were granted to Scotland without proper consultation and agreement of the parliament of the UK then it would be undemocratic and not acceptible.
it would have to be by an act of parliament whatever happens. ps we would get to see the House of Lords in action as the wise, considered upper house that won't rush to judgment or be politicized cough cough cough
To my fellow scottish yes voters.
You are on the wrong forum here. You need to focus your energy on the fight ahead e.g join a party who's policies are more socially fair for all.
You are banging yer heid against a brick wall here.
This forum is made up of mainly middle class people who vote conservative.
They are good people 'who' like us, enjoy riding their bikes.
But because they are conservative, they enjoy having their lot and keeping it.
That in itself does not make them bad people
It's one other factor why so many voted no(95-percent of tories in Scotland voted no).
Too many people out there, happy with their lot, and unwilling to share, for a more socially fair society.
The dream was almost a reality, but the fight goes on.
gordimhor - Member
Thm both Cmd and Ed (don't Call Me Dave) seem to have withheld significant pieces of information from the public.
No. They may have panicked about a rogue poll and got ahead of themselves for sure, but they are essentially facing the realities of details, details....
Staffy,, that is some imagination you have there. Is running away (wrong forum) really the answer. How about facing up to simple questions and giving simple answers. The Tories!?!? Don't forget how SNP voters behaved. If you can't carry your own party, it's a bit rich to blame another one. So Ernie are you a Tory now? Don't worry that doesn't make you a bad person apparently!!!
The dream was exposed as a poorly prepared pipe dream without foundation and the majority rejected it (remember). apart form one rogue poll, the voting/poll patterns were pretty consistent. Accept that and move on. No need for yS to keep lying and manipulating the truth, AS did enough of that for all of you all put together. If you want to blame anyone, blame him for failing to prepare properly, and for missing the biggest open goal in his political history (ok, second to Kinnoch). No wonder you are all so bitter. He screwed it up by choosing initiation, bullying and deceit as the principle tactic and wondering why so many saw through it. Once the misplaced hero worship dies down, that simple reality will sink in and your anger can be directed towards the correct target.
They may have panicked about a rogue poll ......
To be fair it caused panic across Scotland. With every single opinion poll out of a staggering multitude of different ones showing winning support for the No camp, the rogue poll a few days before polling was the best thing that happened for the No camp in the whole campaign - it shook the complacency out of Scots and guaranteed that they rejected separation by a clear margin.
I remember as the fallout of the rogue poll from the business and financial sector in Scotland was being reported thinking whether the poll could have been the result of shenanigans from the No camp, it really was a gift to them. It just seemed too good to be true
You are banging yer heid against a brick wall here.
This forum is made up of mainly middle class people who vote conservative.
You don't have to be a Tory to reject separation. Most Scots aren't Tories most Scots rejected separation.
You don't have to be a Tory to reject separation. Most Scots aren't Tories most Scots rejected separation.
Don't spoil their ideas Ernie, most seem to be looking for any reason why it's not the fact that most Scots rejected the prospect of independence. It's clearly got nothing to do with not being on board with the SNP ideas, not trusting them to sort out the required important issues properly or the fact that an independent Scotland could be better than the current one. I'm not sure if there was a clause but I hope the next go is many years off.
In 1979 a Labour government asked the Scottish people if they wished to have devolution, unfortunately only 30 odd percent of the registered electorate answered yes.
Why would you write it like that seeing as there was a vote in favour of independence that was not respected due to it not reaching a threshold?
I may as well say that in the last vote less than 50% of the population voted to stay in the union - also true but spun somewhat 😕
I also think it is somewhat difficult to cite an example of them ignoring the will of the people in a yes vote for devolution as an example of their fine tradition in respecting devolution.
most seem to be looking for any reason why it's not the fact that most Scots rejected the prospect of independence
Point of order please we need to say those resident in scotland and eligible to vote in the referendum - it was not a vote of the Scottish people/Scots - to be clear i am not making the claim that non scots swayed the election. I have seen no stats either way on this point and have no view.
the rogue poll a few days before polling was the best thing that happened for the No camp in the whole campaign - it shook the complacency out of Scots and guaranteed that they rejected separation by a clear margin.
If a yes voter said that they would be considered to be a conspiracist loon who was clutching at straws by some on here and blaming others for the no vote etc.
FWIW I dont disagree with you so we could ask who was best served by this rogue pol - unionists or nationalists whilst wishing to decide who "sanctioned" its release.
FWIW i have no idea if it was an honest mistake or not.
This forum is made up of mainly middle class people who vote conservative.
I strongly doubt that. Middle class may be the (slim) majority but I doubt that Tories are.
In fairness mol, we are absolutely classing labour supporters as Tories these days! 😆 I wouldn't say they are finished in Scotland far from it, but the have done them selves damage. The feeling at the moment is to do further damage.
To be fair it caused panic across Scotland. With every single opinion poll out of a staggering multitude of different ones showing winning support for the No camp, the rogue poll a few days before polling was the best thing that happened for the No camp in the whole campaign - it shook the complacency out of Scots and guaranteed that they rejected separation by a clear margin.
Good point Ernie. It certainly did that.
The yS still have to accept that more of their supporters (?) voted No than for the SNP. If SNP voters are able to see through the BS, no need to blame anyone else. Pinning this on the Tories is pretty poor. Put the results map in a general election context and what do you have?
Still, two days until Wednesday and STFU day.
Steffbhoy, I understand where you are coming from, does no harm to understand different opinions. I do get frustrated as hell as times mind you, hence my various statements about giving up arguing! 😆
BTW regarding the point only 45 accepted it. There's a difference in how that is being perceived north and south of the border. South that it was a resolute beating. North that to go from 25% to 45% in 2 years is a great achievement and absolutely a great base to build from.
Point of order please we need to say those resident in scotland and eligible to vote in the referendum - it was not a vote of the Scottish people/Scots - to be clear i am not making the claim that non scots swayed the election. I have seen no stats either way on this point and have no view.
I'm probably in trouble now for referring to the inhabitants of Scotland as Scotts. I shall from now on refer to them as the population of the Scotland.
I always thought a narrow no would be the best outcome. However I'm not ready to dismiss Westminster because they've suddenly realised it's more complicated than they thought. Give them time.
In fairness mol, we are absolutely classing labour supporters as Tories these days!
And Labour's comeback policy announcement this morning either proves it, or is the most inept policy launch since ending free school milk!
What was that ninfan? I had a laugh at their promise to raise the main wage by 20bloody20 yesterday.
You are on the wrong forum here. You need to focus your energy on the fight ahead e.g join a party who's policies are more socially fair for all.
it you wanted to make Scotland more socially fair, you'd do something other than chat on a forum. if you wanted to do ANYTHING productive, you'd do something other than chat on a forum.
Seosamh
'Labour promise child benefit cuts for all'
in fairness that is his point. And one a lot of people are doing. Member ship of the SNP, greens and SSP is up by about 12 thousand members since friday. Personally I'm letting things settle for a week or 2 before I decide to join something.konabunny - Member
You are on the wrong forum here. You need to focus your energy on the fight ahead e.g join a party who's policies are more socially fair for all.it you wanted to make Scotland more socially fair, you'd do something other than chat on a forum. if you wanted to do ANYTHING productive, you'd do something other than chat on a forum.
They are correct about a split in Scotland. But not a societal split nor a damaging split as has been spouted.
The silent majority has split. Half aren't silent no longer. Trick is now to harness and encourage that and not let it pitter out.
I'm developing my thoughts as things go but in the short to medium term I believe we need to focus on reforming holyrood under the powers we have and might get. The constitutional questions can lie dormant for a few years.
I wonder if they are just giving up on Scotland and planning to take the Tories on in middle England! 😆ninfan - Member
Seosamh'Labour promise child benefit cuts for all'
in fairness that is his point. And one a lot of people are doing. Member ship of the SNP, greens and SSP is up by about 12 thousand members since friday. Personally I'm letting things settle for a week or 2 before I decide to join something.
I don't know if joining a political party is any better than blethering on the internet from a usefulness POV but it's got to be worth a shot
I believe we need to focus on reforming holyrood
Genuine non-loaded question as I am curious and we don't get to hear about this stuff: What do you consider to be the problems with Holyrood and why would you reform it?
The whole "I am one of the 45" thing really irks me.
2 elections and another referendum to be coming in the not to distant future. So a lot to get involved in. Increasing membership should also influence policy as well IMO. So I don't think it is futile.
its a rallying call nothing more. It'll be gone in a few weeks. People do understand that it is exclusive and not the correct message.NZCol - Member
The whole "I am one of the 45" thing really irks me.
Judging from what I am seeing it is going to take some Yes voters a bit of time to calm down after all the excitement. I am probably [s]pessimistic[/s] realistic in my outlook, but like all these things a bit of enthusiasm is a good thing, but it ain't gonna last. Remember Occupy, Live Aid? It is admirable that people want to change the world but I can't see any lasting effect for the majority of the 45.
[i]This forum is made up of mainly middle class people who vote conservative.[/i]
That's about an accurate a statement as....Alex Salmond is an honest and trustworthy man!
Anyway, I'm bored of this now....THAT thread did it for me! I'm leaving.
For me the mass engagement with politics was a major benefit of the referendum campaign.That is irrespective of which side you were on. There is now a need to unite and hold the politicians to account wherever they are.
In my opinion the beauty of the Yes campaign was that it became a "ground up" campaign with hundreds of groups connected by a theme like Women for Independence , and geographical groups like Yes Lochaber. This "ground up" nature is one of the reasons I have not yet joined one of the political parties as I see them as centralised and to a greater or lesser degree top down controlled.
In a UK general election context the signs are worrying for Labour, various sources say 30% -40% voted yes. So there is a need for Labour to regain that support or to get votes from SNP voters who voted no. The problem is that Labours party machinery is wrecked due to neglect. It is vital for Labour to be seen to delivering on the vow and on or very near the timetable.
[url= http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/more-than-40-per-cent-of-labour-voters-back-yes-1-3544422 ]40% of labour supporters back yes[/url]
[quote=steffybhoy]To my fellow scottish yes voters.
You are on the wrong forum here.
Well with 1 previous post in the last year - and like your fellow flouncer not a single previous post on the Scottish independence debate - it's not really like you're on this forum.
[quote=seosamh77]The silent majority has split. Half aren't silent no longer.
Eh? I can't see the No voters getting all worked up about this. Or were you referring to the silent minority?
NZCol - Member
The whole "I am one of the 45" thing really irks me
spose it sounds more hip with a hint of edginess than "Loser" 😆
Well, tbh I'm still formulating thoughts in my head, but the biggest appeal to me about the yes movement, was the part about bringing democracy closer to the people, more bottom up democracy rather than top down, in that respect I'm still formulating my own opinions, so I don't really want to go into detail as they are nascent and obviously circumstance is making me review alot of thoughts from pre-referendum.molgrips - Member
I believe we need to focus on reforming holyrood
Genuine non-loaded question as I am curious and we don't get to hear about this stuff: What do you consider to be the problems with Holyrood and why would you reform it?
I don't particularly think that these thoughts are invalidated by a no vote. I was always of the opinion, that a yes vote would just be the start of a battle.
Aracer
Well with 1 previous post in the last year - and like your fellow flouncer not a single previous post on the Scottish independence debate - it's not really like you're on this forum.
Yes that is true, glad you took the time to check my history.
I only really come on here to check out mostly MTB content.
For what it's worth, I am not an Alex salmond supporter. I believed in independence because I believe that Scottish people would have the right to self determination, without the Westminster circus.
Given I'd not heard of you before, I was wondering how you had such a good idea of the political leanings of the forum users...
Though clearly the forum isn't the only thing you've not been paying attention to if you think the Scottish people didn't have self determination.
middle class people who vote conservative
Hardly the description of the average Scottish voter is it? Yet >55% of them voted for cooperation and progress. Hang on I'll just nip out and look for those tartan tories who stole your referendum result.....
I believe that all Britons not living in the GLA also deserve that! But that's mainly because London is such a massive hungry self absorbed entity.
... nope, no Tories in sight.
A fairer society and independence are orthogonal you know.
South that it was a resolute beating. North that to go from 25% to 45% in 2 years is a great achievement and absolutely a great base to build from.
Sorry, didn't realise there was a democratic vote two years ago on the same issue. Or was there a dodgy poll that suggested only 25% based on 1000 people who could be bothered to reply?
Do you live in Scotland? If no then this topic is of absolutely no relevance to you, and that is me just echoing what your master 'call me dave' said to the people of Scotland less than a year ago.
Trust me, you would have to be Scottish and a working class Scot, to know where I'm coming from.
You should read the link to Irvine Welsh's blog to gain a better idea.
But I think your blind ignorance will see you OK.
Some good stuff on this thread though, e.g give the Scots their independence and we all keep the money.
Money what money? The 1400 billion£££ of debt owed?
Trust me, you would have to be Scottish and a working class Scot, to know where I'm coming from.
If only there were a catchy name for this kind of argument.
Trust me, you would have to be Scottish and a working class Scot, to know where I'm coming from.
No, there's plenty of bellends who aren't working class and Scottish too.
Sorry, didn't realise there was a democratic vote two years ago on the same issue. Or was there a dodgy poll that suggested only 25% based on 1000 people who could be bothered to reply?
Most polls from back then on the subject of independence put support around that sort of mark.
Remember as well that Better Together has told us the No doesn't mean the status quo and there's been some (rashly made) big promises to deliver. People are energised like never before, it's not surprising that there's pressure being put already.
Do you live in Scotland? If no then this topic is of absolutely no relevance to you,
Errmm is that right - when did Scotland leave the planet in it's nationalistic ardour? So it's 'your master' Dave but our master was 'Gordon Brown' or am I missing something?
Besides with a Yes vote there were many in England hoping that some forced repatriation back across the border might free up some housing 😈
But I think your blind ignorance will see you OK.
Are you assuming that the vote was about conditions for working class Scots? As in, Yes for better conditions, No for screwing the poor...?
Well consider that I thought the polls were a mile off throughout the campaign, I would have to concede that the polls are indeed a pretty fair reflection of things.breatheeasy - Member
South that it was a resolute beating. North that to go from 25% to 45% in 2 years is a great achievement and absolutely a great base to build from.
Sorry, didn't realise there was a democratic vote two years ago on the same issue. Or was there a dodgy poll that suggested only 25% based on 1000 people who could be bothered to reply?
Oh, I thought it was Yes for Salmon, No for I don't like Salmon - like choosing from the menu.
What was the whole thing actually about then?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29314400
For those who think the result was a surprise...
[quote> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29314400
For those who think the result was a surprise...
May not be a surprise, but I'll bet he was 5p/50p for a while there!
From the outside, it seems that both before and after the vote the Yes Campaign did itself no favours by being unwilling or unable to understand the motives of no voters.
They have recently been described as:
'people who will habitually support the status quo at almost any cost' by Irvine Welsh, scared of change, not scottish or not scottish enough, sefishly protecting their own interests, tricked by the promises of devo-max or duped by a biased media.
Just maybe, they are as forward looking, intelligent and interested in social justice as the yes voters, but decided that the best future lay in the UK rather than an independent Scotland.
Just maybe, they are as forward looking, intelligent and interested in social justice as the yes voters, but decided that the best future lay in the UK rather than an independent Scotland.
This pretty much personifies my no voting friends.
And I'm not appreciating having to listen to my friends repeatedly denigrated by people that clearly know **** all about them. They came to a different conclusion as to what would result in a better Scotland. They read WOS, Bella, Facebook, and Twitter, and didn't believe that Yes would improve things. That doesn't mean I have any right to sling abuse at them because I have a different view.
Good lord many of are even working class Scots. Which apparently gives them extra bonus points.
Trust me, you would have to be Scottish and a working class Scot, to know where I'm coming from.
You're working claaaaas? And they let you in this forum? Wouldn't bikemagic be more your thing?
http://www.allofusfirst.org/what-is-common-weal/
Molgrips i probably should have posted this earlier when you asked about my thoughts on holyrood. Regarding your question though, this is a lot wider but where my thoughts are to roughly give you an idea the direction of them.
Worth a read anyhow.
Anecdote I know. But to show much much the stereotypes fit. Amongst the people I know who voted Yes, such was their commitment to social justice and fairness. One spent last year researching the possiblity of moving to Portugal for 6 months of the year to avoid paying tax. Another asked me a few years ago whether I thought it might be worth donating £50k to a certain institution of higher education based in the Fens that his son was thinking of applying to. Both these characters have also been spouting off about how they were voting Yes in the hopes of a fairer society. I'm not claiming that they are in any way representative of Yes voters as a whole but it just shows how much hypocrisy is involved at the moment.
Why is this Common Weal idea Scottish-only?
because it grew up in the campaign towards indepedendence. It actually states on the site somewhere the the ideas don't exclusively come from a Scottish perspective, nor from people that believe in independence.molgrips - Member
Why is this Common Weal idea Scottish-only?
It's currently Scottish only because that's where it was developed. Now given that we are now post referendum. I don't think the ideas are exclusive to it. It would be amazing if the ideas took root in England and Wales.
The ideas are the valid part here. Spread them far and wide. I did mention that I don't believe my thoughts are invalidated by a no vote.
'common weal' is an old early medieval concept and weal is an Anglo Saxon root word.
Do you live in Scotland? If no then this topic is of absolutely no relevance to you, and that is me just echoing what your master 'call me dave' said to the people of Scotland less than a year ago.
Thanks for the polite go away comment there. I grew up within 35 miles of the border in the east, lived in Glasgow and spent another 5 of 6 years working close to the border in the West. Independence would have had a huge impact in those areas. Now I live in Australia, I can look at the situation without being directly involved it gives a sense of perspective that is good to have. Most people in this debate would benefit from spending at least 12months elsewhere. I also now live in a federal system of government which again you should experience before you wish for it.
The no vote has lead to the chance of major constitutional reform in the entire UK, it's now an issue for the entire country.
Thanks mike, an outside perspective is pretty important now.
Time to calm down and take stock on all sides of the debate - and there are multiple sides.
'common weal' is an old early medieval concept
Maybe we can campaign for the reinstating of the laws of Hywel Dda in Wales?
molgrips - Member
Why is this Common Weal idea Scottish-only?
Because it's a repackaging of SNP policies in a cool website. A site that gives no clues as to who the individuals behind it are which should always raise suspicion.
[url= http://reidfoundation.org/our-backers/ ]http://reidfoundation.org/our-backers/[/url] shows who is behind it, same old SNP faithful.
seosamh77 - Membermolgrips - Member
Why is this Common Weal idea Scottish-only?because it grew up in the campaign towards indepedendence...
Nothing scottish about "common weal" 😛
Common weal was a socialist London based newspaper founded in the late 1800's as the journal of the Socialist League, guess the scots couldn't think up their own name and just blagged one, lol
I also now live in a federal system of government which again you should experience before you wish for it.
+1
I'd also recommend living with proportional representation for a while if you think it's a panacea for the problems the current system has.
All Yes voters DO live under a PR system! and all the No voters. and residents of Wales, and London.
bearGrease - Member
molgrips - Member
Why is this Common Weal idea Scottish-only?Because it's a repackaging of SNP policies in a cool website. A site that gives no clues as to who the individuals behind it are which should always raise suspicion.
http://reidfoundation.org/our-backers/ shows who is behind it, same old SNP faithful.
That's it play the man, not the baw! 😉
In other news, Cameron to cut public funding to Scotland.
Well done Scotland, there's a good boy! 😆 would never have predicted that one.
Better together indeed.
Link?
Not quite right Beargrease as this link shows
[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/common-weal-splits-from-jimmy-reid-foundation.24937283 ]Commonweal splits from Reid Foundation[/url]
Further to that I am not sure all those backing the Reid Foundation are SNP supporters Campell Christie? Alex Ferguson?
In other news, Cameron to cut public funding to Scotland.
The full story is that as Scotland gains tax powers it loses that share of the national revenues from its settlement. Obvious really