[Closed] Well a policeman came round on Friday (IANAL, are you?)

CCTV in the area?

CCTV on the bus? (including the "fall") ?

Was "damage" to the bus (after the collision) reported back at the bus depot (as I would expect?).

There *must* be a record of the incident at the bus company.

I suggest you talk to someone who IAL.

hhmmm ... ask them for proof of a collision by showing them your car? Not sure who to appeal to until they prosecute you.

"Define collision" would have been my initial response.

Agree re cctv and bus company records.

The cynic in me thinks that the passenger has tried to claim off the bus company and they are spreading the blame.

There is no dispute that there was no contact, it took 2 months to contact me as the driver reported the wrong reg no and police had to get it from buses cctv.

Ring and speak to the Bus/depot Manager.

Request pictures of the damage with your paint on and vice versa. I'd fight it if there was no contact.

One thing that does go against you- you continued to reverse. You shouldn't have. When reversing you have no right of way over other cars.

you need to builda weight of evidence now as the above carries points doesn't it.

So take detailed pics of your car now and ask for the same (and in writing)

does your insurance include legal cover?

assuming that the passenger/bus company are trying to get money out of you too I'd consider talking to them and getting some legal advice.

Enhft, it was, closely followed by how am I reasonably expected to assume that someone has been injured when there is no contact and no notification. Apparently I should report those near misses, if I did that when I'm riding I'd never be off the phone.

The Bus Driver seems to be at fault here, as he has an injured passenger, he is trying to get the blame put onto you.
As there did not seem to be any collision, you were not to know that there had been any injuries (you dont have to be involved in the collision to have caused it - e.g., you pull out of a side street, the 1st car stops in time, but the one behind goes into the back of him, you were not involved in the collision, but did cause it).
As (it seems?) you did not leave the scene of the alleged collision, then you really cannot be charged with not reporting it, as you were not aware, and could have been informed by the other driver at the scene.
Any Solicitor would probably get this thrown out before any Court proceedings.
I'm on a Legal forum, I'll post there, (details edited) and see what the result is.

Insurance legal cover doesn't include challenging prosecution only insurance claims, which haven't been made.

I think the issue is

should a 'no collision' road incident be reported to the police.

?

Which is just a matter of someone deciding what the wording of the law is. Like a lawyer.

Insurance legal cover doesn't include challenging prosecution only insurance claims, which haven't been made

Who will the passenger claim from?

I'm on a Legal forum, I'll post there, (details edited) and see what the result is.

Good old STW community spirit in full swing 🙂

Ok, a bit out of touch with my law but if I remember correctly section 170 of the Road Traffic Act requires you to stop and exchange names and addresses. It only becomes reportable if damage is done to a third party's property or injury is caused (or certain animals hurt). There doesn't have to be a collision as such. (There's something about "due to the presence of a vehicle on the road..." which I can't remember off the top of my head).

Also, I don't think you've been charged, just "NIP"d - given a notice of intended prosecution. The evidence will be considered and a decision made as to whether there is enough evidence.

It could be argued that if you were unsure as to whether an accident took place you should have reported it but I personally think that's a bit dubious as the local police stations would be full of people reporting near misses.

A DWODCA is possible as you've continued a manoeuvre with limited space when waiting to confirm the bus has stopped would have been the safe option.

It's a "your word against his" job (unless the bus has video) But it could depend on how many witnesses were there on the bus that would state the bus had to brake sharply to avoid you?

Rich.

You're under no legal obligation to report a near-miss if you have no reason to believe any damage or injuries resulted

Hora, I continued to reverse after we'd both stopped, I maintain it was not safe or clear for him to pass even if I was stationary and as such I had to manoeuvre to clear the road.

Harding v Price [1948]

😀

Alani, thanks fella.

A guy was charged with manslaughter a few months ago after hopping off the pavement on his bike, in front of a bus. A passenger died after hitting his head when the bus driver braked to avoid the cyclist.

These things are certainly possible. The issue would be if you were doing anything wrong. Being stationary in the road surely wouldn't make you responsible. Pulling out or cutting the bus up would be a different matter.

Ninfan surely
Arkell v. Pressdram (1971)
😉

the driver reported the wrong reg no and police had to get it from buses cctv.

In which case the police will have seen exactly what didn't happen and you should be in the clear ... Non ?

There should also be video from inside the bus if the bus company want to contest the claim from the injured passenger.

I'd certainly reword things a bit, but that's what the lawyer is for.

It was clear to commence your manoeuvre, so started to reverse. During that manoeuvre you realised that a bus driver was going to force his way past, so you did the right thing by stopping immediately. No collision occurred, so you continued to park the car. You remained at the scene.
The bus driver left the scene of the incident without exchanging details, since there had been no collision.

Apparently I should report those near misses, if I did that when I'm riding I'd never be off the phone.

But continuing with the IANAL themed culpability blame game, bus driver drove off OP did not, passenger was in bus driver's care and no doubt will be claiming on bus companies insurance. If CCTV shows OPs stated version of events to be true then all down to the bus driver. Only other possible thing could be parking on a bend?

*which since switching to mainly offroad commuting are now thankfully very few.

If we have to report every near miss where someone may or may not have been hurt, whether I'm riding or driving, I'd be on the phone to the police several times a journey!

IANAL but andytherocketeer's description of events sounds perfectly plausible and reasonable and, unless the cctv will prove you a liar, this would be the version of events I would be pushing.

If the cctv shows I clearly entered the bus lane I might be more accepting (I'm going to ask to see it) but IMO I didn't cross into the business, he encroached into my lane, with the caveat it happened 2 months ago so I'm not certain.

Id hire andytherocketeer

After the interview I was charged with failing to report a collision and Driving without due care

No, you weren't.

Also, I don't think you've been charged, just "NIP"d - given a notice of intended prosecution. The evidence will be considered and a decision made as to whether there is enough evidence.

The training-school verbal NIP is quite clumsy, along the lines of "you will be reported for the consideration of the question of prosecuting you..." and is a warning that you may be prosecuted. All the evidence will be reviewed before the decision is made, and the point is to prompt you that you may be prosecuted so you have time to consider your defence, by posting on cycle forums etc.

2 replies from a Legal forum:
1:
It sounds as if they have decided to prosecute, if the friend has been
"charged" with an offence (presumably under s170 of the Road Traffic Act
1988 unless there is a more recent provision).

The obligation to report an accident is a strict one. It might be a
defence to persuade the court that you were unaware of any injury to
anyone, but perhaps some damaging admissions were made to the police.

Driving without due care seems a viable prosecution.

The friend needs to get legal advice from a criminal practitioner.

2:You might still be guilty of due care and the accident be your fault (due to
the presence of your vehicle on the road), but I can't see the failure to
stop sticking, especially as you parked up.

*throws away the key*

I had a very slow (2-3 mph) rear end shunt into the car in front a couple of weeks ago. No damage to either car.
Being unsure of procedure I rang the police to report it, they told me I wasn't under any obligation to report a collision unless someone was hurt...

Question that I'm going to cast out there....

Could the police have ascertained the registered keepers details and served an NIP within 14 days using reasonable diligence?

Now, I don't want to cast aspersions - but I'm going to suggest that the 'driver gave the wrong number' [u]could [/u] be a convenient excuse for it having sat in someones in tray for several weeks.

just putting it out there, but you might want to look carefully at the whole 'wrong number' scenario...

(IIRC the 14 day limit would not apply where the driver was knowingly involved in an accident - seems everyone here agrees he wasn't)

Being unsure of procedure I rang the police to report it, they told me I wasn't under any obligation to report a collision unless someone was hurt...

I got the impression that they thought I was wasting their time.

I don't think the NIP applies where there has been a reportable accident.

The requirement of section 1(1) of this Act does not apply in relation to an offence if, at the time of the offence or immediately after it, an accident occurs owing to the presence on a road of the vehicle in respect of which the offence was committed.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/2

As for the "accident". If the bus was forced to brake because of the OP's car and a passenger was injured then that is a reportable RTA. No contact between the vehicles is needed.

There is case law that a driver can not be done for failing to report if he could not know an accident had occurred as it is requiring the impossible.

It doesn't stack up to me though - if someone was injured, why did the driver of the bus carry on? Surely he would have pulled over and, as the OP was parked up, they could have easily swapped insurance details at that point.

Or did the bus driver think it was a good idea to carry on despite having someone injured on the bus?

Lawyer is your best bet, especially as failing to stop can carry a custodial sentence or heavy fine.

However, being genuinely unaware that an accident has taken place is a clear defence to this charge. And not exactly an implausible one, given that there's no evidence of contact at all! You'd hope the CPS would see the futility of trying to pursue this one.

It's probably too late now, but you should never agree to an interview under caution without your own/the duty solicitor present. It was basically a fishing expedition by plod, and as they've charged you, you probably said too much/the wrong thing.

If it was exactly as you say, then you've done nothing wrong, but you are now in a hole that you need to properly defend yourself out of. The best thing that can save you is the CCTV from the bus, you need to request that they preserve it (and ask nicely for them to provide you with a copy). Your argument is probably that it was the bus driver that left the scene - you were parking so went no where, it was him that drove off and later called the police from another location.

I'd suggest joining PistonHeads forums, and post in the 'Speed, Plod & Law' section (you won't be able to as a new member, so post in one of the other sections and ask for it to be moved). Some experts (including motoring solicitors) post in there.

The fact that there was no contact is neither here nor there 20+ years ago I successfully claimed a car who pulled out on me whilst I was already overtaking(put me off road at commando memorial at Spean Bridge). He claimed he was totally unaware of me leaving the road in the subsequent correspondence and would not give his insurance details for a crash he was unaware of (even though he went to pull back in just as I left the road then pulled out again and legged it) He changed his tune when my insurance company said they were going to sue him for the losses if he did not give his details. HTH

You should have spoke to a lawyer or had one present before saying anything to the police.

you pull out of a side street, the 1st car stops in time, but the one behind goes into the back of him, you were not involved in the collision, but did cause it.

Not sure how you'd be liable for this - the last car is too close to the one in front, it's his fault he crashed.

Anyway. I'm also not a lawyer of course but if the bus driver had to brake that hard surely he was also going too fast for conditions? Given he has a load of not-strapped-in possibly standing passengers he needs to take it easy doesn't he?

Martinhutch, it's not failing to stop it's failing to report. I did stop, the other driver didn't.

So I'm assuming a trip to a purveyor of finest no win no fee legal advice.

Were you actually charged or just get a verbal NIP? If I'm correct in assuming it's the latter, (words to the effect of "I am reporting you for the consideration of prosecution"), I wouldn't panic too much as you're only being [i]considered[/i] for prosecution, or in other words they're looking into it.

Re. the '14 day rule' it is applicable in this case (it wouldn't be if the OP was "knowingly involved in an accident", which he wasn't), although there is a reasonable diligence clause for extra time it takes to track down hire cars, or as in this case, an incorrect reg. no.

The relevant dates in this case would be between (1) the date they ascertained your name and address and (2) the date of your interview / verbal NIP; OP, my first thing to do would be to ask the police when the former was, and I'd still get in touch with a motoring solicitor though.

[edit]

just to be clear, yes, the NIP would still need serving within 14 days but the 'start' date is when they found your name / address

Re. the '14 day rule' it is applicable in this case

It isn't because there was an accident.

So I'm assuming a trip to a purveyor of finest no win no fee legal advice.

You might find the "no win no fee" brigade are not so keen once they hear that winning means they won't get paid either 😉

irc:

[i]Section 2 RTOA 1988 states that the prosecution does not have to comply with section 1 if, owing to the presence on a road of a vehicle in respect of which the offence was committed, an accident occurred at the time of the offence or immediately afterwards. [b]However, a notice is still required if the defendant was unaware that there had been an accident[/b]: see Bentley v Dickinson [1983] RTR 356.[/i]

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences/

also refers to the same in Blackstones

I think the passenger on the bus has decided they have a 'whiplash' injury after the bus driver did an emergency stop to avoid hitting you. Mr Bus driver probably wasnt paying enough attention to what was happening in front of him, and just assumed he could just smash on regardless as he is a.- In a bigger vehicle and b.- In a bus lane ??

The bus companies insurance company have received the passengers claim, and are now trying to limit the damage by passing the buck onto you , the car driver.

Mr Plod could have traced your car within an hour or so , even with a partial plate ( I am guessing its your own car , reg to you , at your home address ) if they have the make and model and colour had they felt it necessary at the time.

Hopefully a good solicitor will get this dropped , good luck with it.

Having spoken to someone who IAL (partner at the big firm downstairs) on my way back from work he's of the opinion that there should be no case on failing to report and that DWODCA is iffy but go and chat if anything develops.

singletrackmind - yeah, my spidey sense says similar, and that nothing was done about this until the injury/whiplash claim came in afterwards - I'd lay a fiver that it wasn't even reported to the police till then and the whole 'wrong number plate' claim is bull****.

The police were called at the time according to the Pc, but Yeah, same thought in principle.

Interview under caution.....hmmm yes that's a fishing exercise no doubt, as Mbike says.

Sadly you've probably now admitted to reversing while facing oncoming traffic.

Its rock and hard place, as you've realised the bus is there and tried to get out its way. Also the bus driver should also be looking where he is gong and anticipating this...bus drivers swap routes but not enough to not know what dangers are on the route they take. He'll know its tight for two vehicles!

IANAL but it should be the other way round, the bus driver sees you and should slow down/stop knowing no space to get round the corner.. As they are semi blind and ignorant of other road users (based on Birmingham city bus drivers...sorry if there are any present)

As you've said plenty to dibble then I'm guessing you may see action taken on this unless the CPS actually use their head and tell the Police to stop wasting their time.....or should do.

ring the bus company
pay £10 , think its called subject access request and they will have to
show you the CCTV , well the bits with you in it anyway

I'm confused.

What have you failed to report exactly? A bus not hitting you? Buses don't hit me on a daily basis.

How hard does the bus have to not hit you to make it reportable?

Next time the old bill come round and start trying to interview you under caution, make sure you either:
A. Say sod all
B. Get a lawyer round there sharpish
C. Get your phone out and start videoing them, they don't like that much and might run off... 😆

I work a lot with plod, no offence to any coppers on here, but a lot of them spend more time fishing than Robson Green...

Get the CCTV off the bus company, get a solicitor and wait for the CPS to see sense...

I really don't understand this at all.

You were effectively stationary in the road - the sharp braking by the bus driver was required because of his own poor driving. You could have been queuing in traffic, or waiting for a little old lady in the road or whatever.

Trying to infer that by reversing (slowly I assume) into a parking space you caused him to brake more sharply (than if you were stationary) - again points to his own poor driving. I suspect that he deliberately broke hard and late to try to aggressively prove the point that you were in his way. Sounds like you were only in his way because he was trying to cut the corner anyway.

I am a lawyer but am also on holiday .

The law is not an ass it normally says exactly what you would expect it to.

You must stop and exchange details for any accident you are aware of where damage occours. If you can't for good reason or if anyone is injured you must report it to the police.

Don't worry about what accident,means if because of you car being on the road something goes wrong that is a thing to report.

You cannot be expected to have superpowers so you don't have to report an incident that you were unaware of or were reasonably unaware of damage or injury.

The vast majority of advise above is correct. Not really any such thing as no win no fee lawyers and definitely no such thing in criminal law which is what this is .

My guess is you have been reported for summons not charged . If charged you would have a charge sheet and a court date. If you have these see a lawyer now. If reported for summons the file is being passed on for someone else to make a decision. My best guess is this will go nowhere and be left as a civil dispute for the insurers to settle. NOTIFY YOUR INSURERS OF THIS CASE.

Mr Plod could have traced your car within an hour or so , even with a partial plate ( I am guessing its your own car , reg to you , at your home address ) if they have the make and model and colour had they felt it necessary at the time.

Damage to your vehicle or bus? Proof of collision?

You can't be charged for failing to report a collision if there was no actual collision. CPS would laugh that out.

[quote
They could have just taken it to the lab and got them to click "enhance" so it brought everything into clearer focus. Easy

Super Troopers? 🙂

A couple of years ago I had an incident when I was cut up on a roundabout, so had to brake hard and when I moved off again a bus which was hooning onto the roundabout also braked hard.

The first thing I knew was a couple of months later when the bus company's lawyers made a claim against my insurance because an old couple on the bus fell over.

My insurance broker explained that the bus companies get hit with such a huge excess it seems that they encourage the drivers to lie through their teeth to blame somebody else.

You won't win.

Shall we all ring local plod today to report buses not colliding with us?

[quote=johndoh ]Shall we all ring local plod today to report buses not colliding with us?

We should all call mrhoppy's local police as I'm pretty sure the buses where he lives in particular aren't colliding with us.

8)

mrhoppy - Member
The police were called at the time according to the Pc, but Yeah, same thought in principle.

So if the police were called at the time, given an injury occurred, did they not attend the scene? In which, case it would have been quite easy for them to get the driver to identify the "offending" vehicle (i.e. yours) parked by the side of the road. It seems somebody could be bending the truth a little with the "wrong reg number" statement...

I'm a little confused - nothing seems to have been mentioned about your phrase "just as the road turns right". You also infer that the buses 'usually cut the corner' and that there wouldn't be room for the bus to get past.

Are you actually saying that its a blind bend and during your reversing manoeuvre you not only used the right hand lane but also swung into the bus lane? Thus causing the bus to brake hard i.e. you could have stopped and let the bus past but chose to complete the reverse? If there was a bus lane, the bus should have been able to get past whatever you were doing in your own lane.

Knowing my local buses I'm sure it was being driven like qualifying for Monaco by a big fat, angry future heart attack but you need to be more careful how you explain things, especially if you ever have to write a statement.

You can[s]'t[/s] be charged for failing to report a [s]collision[/s] incident where someone was injured even if there was no actual collision.

Reminds me, my mum was driving on motorway in the rain, was in lane 1 indicated to move to lane 2 to overtake a car, checked mirrors started to move over. Mid manoeuvre a van from lane 3 starts to move into lane 2, mum sees it swerves out of way (was very close) spins in the wet, accident occurs (fortunately minor), van driver scarpers whilst seeing accident happening in his rear view mirror. Presumably if my mum had got the van's reg the driver would have been in trouble for failing to report an incident he was involved in?

Have you a street view of the non-incident location? Would be interesting to see what you or the bus driver could have seen.

Brown vs. Smith 1963

Hogan Vs Undertaker, 1991.