[Closed] We will have no NHS in 5 years.

I used to be all for the NHS - now I'm not so sure. There is a hell of a lot of politics in that organisation that must be wasting a ridiculous amount of money.

I’m going to bump this a few times if it doesn’t get any attention, because I can’t really overstate the importance of it

That's rather self-important of you.

That's rather self-important of you.

This is much bigger than my ego mate.

I used to be all for the NHS - now I'm not so sure. There is a hell of a lot of politics in that organisation that must be wasting a ridiculous amount of money.

Watch the video, you might find out why your view has changed.

he thanks you for the bump 😉

we will have a free at the point of use NHS I would imagine for ever as [ more or less]everyone accepts this principle though there may be debate about how it is best delivered

If the tories just looked at the cost [ it is cheap]they would probably like it as well

Be honest no one would tolerate the waits we have in the NHS if we were actual customers who could go elsewhere so it is cheap as chips relative to other models

I've made up my mind from personal experiences.

Old news, been in progress for years.

[b]Junkyard[/b]
we will have a free at the point of use NHS I would imagine for ever

We won’t unless we act now. Seriously, watch the video.

I work as part of DH, close to NHS and the contracts we're tied into are ludicrous. Better value on the high street with a credit card to pay for it!

[b]LHS[/b]
Old news, been in progress for years.

Which is what most people aren’t aware of.

Old news, been in progress for years.

Which is probably why the OP included :

This is a covert, planned demolition that’s been going on for 20 years, with the backing of both the Tories and Labour.

Seriously... would you trust this man to run anything?

[img] [/img]

The fact that he's a muppet of the highest order, doesn't quite disguise the privatisation agenda

But the Tories can't get full scale privatisation through, as it appears the only policy that has reminded some Lib Dem MPs that even they are meant to be in possession of a spine

We won’t unless we act now. Seriously, watch the video

INWATS.

How should we act, oh great saviour?

(To all you doubters, it must be true, there is a video on youtube. Has STW taught you nothing?)

It will still be free at the point of use.

Loving the one-man mission to save the world 🙂

Seriously, watch the video.

It's not covert, private contractors have been running the NHS for years. It's only not visible to those who don't pick up a paper from time to time.

Binners, why the picture of Jens Voigt?

I started to watch the video then realised she was an utter swamp donkey and I could watch two girls wrestling in baby oil with just 2 more clicks of the mouse. So I did that instead.
Privatisation you say? Ok, I'm all for it.

I could watch two girls wrestling in baby oil with just 2 more clicks of the mouse.

There are girls on the internet? 😯

Quick OP, we need to to inform the world of this!

allthepies - Member

Loving the one-man mission to save the world

I suppose you haven't heard of the BMA, the royal colleges, and all the other healthcare professional organisations, who are opposing the privatization of the NHS ?

Try to pay more attention to current affairs allthepies, and cut down on the silly smartarse comments.

It may not be perfect but the NHS is one of the fairest and most efficient healthcare systems in the world. That this (and previous) government has so covertly and deliberately dismantled it is a disgrace, as they are doing it to line their own pockets.

If the general public were more aware of what was happening to the NHS there would be outcry. Makes me wonder why the media aren't reporting it more.

These girls? They weren't naked were they? I think I've heard about this kind of thing

I hope its still there when I get to work tonight, I've already made my butties.

These girls? They weren't naked were they? I think I've heard about this kind of thing

NAKED GIRLS?!?!?!? *faints*

Someone must put a stop to this! In 15 [s]minutes[/s] seconds.

Makes me wonder why the media aren't reporting it more.

maybe becaues the government is lining their pockets........

maybe becaues the government is lining their pockets........

Now this is getting good....

it will continue to be free at the point of use, but supplied by private companies, who will charge the government for your care. expect quality of care to drop significantly.

OK lets say I agree with the OP that successive governments have been steering us towards the slow implementation of private control of the high value areas of the NHS.

How would you stop it?

Whichever colour of government we vote for it appears that they will continue down the same path. If this wasn't the case the opposition would have be banging on about this day in day out for the last few years. If they were against it, they would continually use this as a stick to beat the government with. Managed correctly it would be a massive vote winner.

I dont think this is getting the reaction the OP was lookng for 😐

It will still be free at the point of use.

Like in the US?

How would you stop it?

Whichever colour of government we vote for it appears that they will continue down the same path.

Well don't vote Tory, LibDem, or New Labour, then, you don't have to. And as you quite rightly suggest, they all have the same agenda.

So what if we ditch the NHS? We're not entitled to it, it's just one model of many used around the world...

I wonder how many Brits ask themselves why no other country in the world has an NHS model. Anything to do with the fact it's very, very expensive?

By offering healthcare free at the point of need you're removing any incentive for people to look after themselves... which is neither good for the taxpayer who ends up paying loads, and also no good for the general public who end up not looking after themselves...

Maybe the country's healthcare needs have changed since NHS was created in 1948 and we need a different solution? See ageing population and obesity crisis. If your tyres got a puncture, there's no point ignoring it and riding on is there?

In any case Bupa is in one hell of a mess - seriously falling profits, so it's not like there's some kind of secret mission to change the model to private insurance, cos that ain't working either...

The opposition does go on about it, but usually realise that they are complaining of a current failing that they implemented, like private ambulances and other nonsense.
Or some privatised service that they privatised.

But I'm not bothered really as everyone loves/hates the NHS, we all want it, but everyone complains about some aspect of it, from Doctors, to Nurses, patients, politicians, managers, everyone dislikes some aspect of it. from quality of care, to waiting times, to piss take, to cost, to contracts, to working hours, wages, etc etc

It seems to be wrong everywhere but carries on regardless

I dont think this is getting the reaction the OP was lookng for

Probably not, but it provides a good clue as to why politics in Britain is in such dire straights.

Whichever colour of government we vote for it appears that they will continue down the same path. If this wasn't the case the opposition would have be banging on about this day in day out for the last few years. If they were against it, they would continually use this as a stick to beat the government with.

This is covered in the video, if only people can find an hour and a quarter to sit and take it in.

I wonder how many Brits ask themselves why no other country in the world has an NHS model. Anything to do with the fact it's very, very expensive?

Canada?

it's not like there's some kind of secret mission to change the model to private insurance

Yes, there is. There is exactly this.

Probably not, but it provides a good clue as to why politics in Britain is in such dire straights.

I could cry.

Guys, if you’re interested, watch the video. If you hate the NHS or if you love it, you really might find it a worthwhile use of your time.

If you don’t care either way, don’t bother – we’ll reconvene in the “What health insurance” threads anon.

jackthedog - Member

[i]Whichever colour of government we vote for it appears that they will continue down the same path. If this wasn't the case the opposition would have be banging on about this day in day out for the last few years. If they were against it, they would continually use this as a stick to beat the government with.[/i]

This is covered in the video, if only people can find an hour and a quarter to sit and take it in.

Little chance of that mate. STW likes to passionately engage in the very British middle-class pastime of moaning like **** about everything, but without being arsed to actually do anything about it. Presumably so that they have still things to endlessly whinge about.

You need TJ to aid your cause.

The colour of the party doesn't matter. They'll continue to privatise by stealth for as long as there's a revolving door where government ministers walk straight into highly paid boardroom roles with the private companies who have been the beneficieries of their policies

For example Patricia Hewitt, after being health secretary took a couple of highly paid jobs in private healthcare, one with Alliance Boots, another with an investment firm Cinven, which specialises in buy-outs in the healthcare industry

Former Labour health secretary Alan Milburn became a paid advisor to a private equity firm Bridgepoint Capital, heavily involved in financing private healthcare firms (Bridgepoint’s subsidiary won a multi-million pound NHS contract six months after he joined)

There is a ten minute edit if it helps.

Because there will never be an announcement in parliament that the NHS is privatised, and because the private providers will be allowed to use the NHS logo for anything they are getting NHS funding for, it is very likely that the general public will not be aware that the private sector has come in and taken over whatever bits of the NHS it finds profitable until, probably, service provision gets very bad, but then at that point of course the private providers just take the NHS logo off and then enjoy the boost to business that will come with the terrible reputation that the NHS will have by then.

Virgin is already running A&Es. Can’t believe I’m [url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-privatisation-how-private-firms-1918235 ]providing links to the Daily Mirror[/url], but nobody else is covering it.

Richard Branson is the king of PR. Why no fanfare for his adventures into private healthcare?

Don't forget that the GP service has never been anything other than private, it was never nationalised.

I'm at work so unlikely to go watching a 1Hr - 15min video when I should be pretending to work.

But I'm guessing it's about how the NHS is changing from a National Health service to something more like a "Health services procurement agency"... Like most public services it seems.

While it's not News to many, I think people have become a bit Blase / Jaded on the topic and perhps don't appreciate just what having an NHS really means, I dread to think what a US style cost driven healthcare system would be like to live with, but it looks like that's where we're headed.

The current "austerity driven" political debates seem to center on the direct financial costs of the NHS and ignores the broader social and ecconomic benefits of having a population (and workforce) whose general health care is not subject to those in need obtaining funding / insurance provision.

The NHS should not be operated for financial profit, it should exist to maintain the general health of the nation, the wider benefits of which should be evident...

The NHS should not be operated for financial profit, it should exist to maintain the general health of the nation, the wider benefits of which should be evident...

This.

Otherwise we end up like this: http://beforeitsnews.com/economy/2013/03/60-of-us-bankruptcies-due-to-medical-bills-while-78-of-those-bankruptcies-have-insurance-coverage-2500492.html

Another snippet from the video.

The reason we have been told all this stuff about GP empowerment and patient empowerment is firstly to lure the doctors into complying with it – they are belatedly starting to understand that this has been a trick – because the second reason GPS have been told that within CCGs they would have the chance to advance the interest of patients, is because it’s very important to our politicians that nobody blames them. So the public has been induced to believe that the GPs are taking over and will be in control, so in five years when the whole thing is in complete chaos and you can’t get decent care, it won’t be the politicians’ fault.

The colour of the party doesn't matter. They'll continue to privatise by stealth for as long as there's a revolving door where government ministers walk straight into highly paid boardroom roles with the private companies who have been the beneficieries of their policies

This is very true. However the electorate do have one trick up their sleeve. The one thing elected politicians worry about, truly worry about, is the thought that things might go tits up on election day and that they might not get elected. And believe me if the threat is big enough they start to seriously worry.

So staying at home watching telly on election day instead of voting doesn't, despite the obvious appeal, "teach politicians a lesson". Getting out and voting for their opponents however does.

It's with this simple truth in mind that some in the healthcare professions formed the National Health Action Party to target key coalition seats.

So rather than not voting "because they are all the same" a far more sensible response, if the NHS matters to you, would be to be proactive and get out and vote. Or even, god forbid, do a bit of canvassing/election work.

http://www.nationalhealthaction.org.uk/

I know it's the model we know and have grown up with, but who says it's the best one for the UK given our current and future health needs and financial situation?
Why shouldn't it be changed?

Interesting this. Mrs Daz works in the NHS and doesn't have much good to say about her experiences of private sector provision of services. I guess the question is, do you trust a private company to deliver the same level of care (or better), for less money, so that they can take a slice in profit to pay their shareholders?

The free market mantra that profit driven private companies will deliver greater efficiencies and hence better services is all very well in theory, but as has been shown in other privatised industries, a free market is not what will happen. Instead the market will be carved up between a few big providers who will run it as a virtual monopoly with profiteering, price fixing and all the other dubious practices such as offshore accounting, tax avoidance etc. And yet we're told they will provide better services, for less money. Yeah right.

All people who think the NHS is not the best option have to do is come up with a viable alternative...

I wonder how many Brits ask themselves why no other country in the world has an NHS model. Anything to do with the fact it's very, very expensive?

Healthcare is very expensive, but the NHS is way more efficient that the USA model which always shows up as the least cost effective system whenever they compare different models.

However, if you're a Tory minister looking for a nice well paying NED when you next lose the election, having a load of private companies creaming off 100s of £m from the NHS budget starts to look like a very good model (for retirement funding).

I know it's the model we know and have grown up with, but who says it's the best one for the UK given our current and future health needs and financial situation?

Who says it isn’t? Those with commercial interest in the alternative seem to be enjoying the biggest audience at the moment. Not much counter argument is getting made.

There are two sides to every story, and anyone you care to ask currently seems so far to have only heard one side.

One problem is that there are few people alive who remember what it was like before we had an NHS. My parents do and they think that, even in its run down state, it's the best thing about this country. My experience of public and private healthcare leaves me in no doubt that I would like to see no private healthcare at all, all surface gloss and crap patient care (proper patient care not nice meals and fancy rooms).

Interesting this. Mrs Daz works in the NHS and doesn't have much good to say about her experiences of private sector provision of services.

Likewise. I have encountered a few charity/third sector providers of health/social care that were previously NHS, and a couple have done well for their patients and their balance sheets, and and a couple have not. Of course these are without sharholders and invest any surplus back into sefvice provision. Serco, Virgin and ISS who all have big contracts near here are not doing terribly well and generating a good deal of ill-feeling and dissatisfaction from their patients, whilst somewhat amusingly, the three NHS trusts from which they picked off profitable services are really doing rather well considering... However I am yet to hear of any provider failing in the delivery services on behalf of the NHS blaming the financial mess left by their predecessors. 😆

I guess the question is, do you trust a private company to deliver the same level of care (or better), for less money, so that they can take a slice in profit to pay their shareholders?

In my professional experience, no. Don't forget also that the cut in staffing costs trickle down to a reduction in income tax and NI paid into the treasury from the employees providing the same service, (either by using fewer employees, or similar numbers on non-agenda for change payscales or 'rebanded' to lower pay grades) whilst the profits made from delivering that service at same or reduced cost to what was spent doing it via NHS will be subject to some extremely clever tax-accounting before any of it comes back into the treasury as tax. 😈

However, if you're a Tory minister looking for a nice well paying NED when you next lose the election, having a load of private companies creaming off 100s of £m from the NHS budget starts to look like a very good model (for retirement funding).

Nail on the head there. I find it hilarious that the old unionised industries were shut down for being 'inefficient' and requiring too many state subsidies, yet the exact same thing is happening now but instead of it being called a subsidised industry, it's called 'outsourcing'. The main difference of course is that instead of the subsidies going into state owned institutions (some might call this 'investment'), it's going straight into the pockets of private shareholders.

I wonder how many Brits ask themselves why no other country in the world has an NHS model. Anything to do with the fact it's very, very expensive?

Shall I go on or will that do?
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS
Perhaps a picture
[img] ?w=500&h=299[/img]

There is a ten minute edit if it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i-yFfLgzSc

I know it's the model we know and have grown up with, but who says it's the best one for the UK given our current and future health needs and financial situation?
Why shouldn't it be changed?

Crosses fingers it works better than your it is expensive argument

While the previous Governments inflicted PFI arrangements on the NHS which some trusts re having to spend over 25% of their budgets to service, I have to say that this current shower of way-anchors are sending this country further into the neo-liberal pit of despair.

I guess the question is, do you trust a private company to deliver the same level of care (or better), for less money, so that they can take a slice in profit to pay their shareholders?

You only need to look at private enterprise and note that if they get hold of critical public services there will be less money for services because of profit, and when they fail, we the tax payer pick up the tab. You only need to look at G4S and the olympic security debacle to see that it was public servants, the army how came to the rescue.

Unfortunately, because of the lack of profit to be made elsewhere, these corporations have been targeting the cash cow that is tax payer funded public services.

Wait until you see what they have lined up for the justice system.

This is a government that doesn't like government.I said on this forum before that this is a government of political suicide, but by the time they leave office the damage would have been done.

I don't expect any of the main parties to set it right. Corporatism is now the adversary of democracy.

Ok, I'll wade in.

I run 3 acute care dentist surgeries, 12 dentists, 40 staff. They open 8-8 every day and operate that service 365 days a year. They were run previously by salaried staff (within the NHS). When I joined (just after the takeover) we were seeing about 4-5 acute patients a day. With a bit of reorganising we're now seeing 15-20 acute patients a day. We offer the same level of care to the rest of our patients, as we still operate the same hours, and have the same time limits, we just have better organisation and structure to the day, something that the salaried staff had no reason to bother with...(and still complain loudly about). Loads of my patients are exempt, they get the same level of care and attention that every-one else gets. When you go to your NHS dentist, ask them which company they work for...

Some parts of the NHS need a dose of reality. I can send my NHS patients to a private clinic operating wholly within the NHS for M.O.S* and they get seen next day, or I can send them across the road to the same service run by the NHS were they will wait a month. As they are referrals within the NHS both patients pay the same. £49...which would you rather go to?

I love the NHS as much as the next wailing leftie, but I've seen the consumables they got through, the waste of money on computer systems and OPT installations and on and on and on...

*Minor Oral Surgery...we love our TLAs like a fat kid loves cake....

Might [i]Minor Oral Surgery[/i] be the kind of service cherry picked by the private providers? Does that compound the problem? Private providers can no doubt turn a profit on those straightforward jobs, and I guess it works great. When complications arise and things get unprofitable, what happens? Those private providers have a legal duty to act in the best interests of their stake holders, no?

An aunt of mine quite quickly found the private practise surgeon that left her in a state was suddenly very hard to get in contact with when she started asking for his mistakes to be corrected. It got sorted by the NHS when she finally showed up at the local A&E in a state.

So the private providers fall over themselves to get hold of the profitable, straightforward cases and will succeed in winning those bids, able as they are to outbid the social remit competition by having access to far greater funds (I imagine credit cards and mobile phone tariffs must be a good earner, though I’m not so sure about planes, railway franchises, beauty products, space travel and record breaking balloon trips) and what’s left of the NHS ends up dealing with all the complicated, expensive things.

I was given remedial keyhole surgery on my leg last year. Cleaning up the cartilage, quick job. My consultant at the NHS hospital referred me immediately to his own private practise. I was given my own room in a private hospital with fresh towels and soap in the hotel style bathroom, a copy of the Mail on the table, Sky on the telly and a view over a manicured garden out of the window. I was in and out within 5 hours, sent away with six weeks of physio scheduled in my posh appointment card.

When I did the original injury, had to have my leg realigned on the hill to maintain blood flow, was brought in with a shattered mess where my ankle used to be, requiring five hours of emergency surgery, a raft of x–rays and scans, casts, follow up surgery to remove screws, more casts, crutches and three months of intensive physio followed by a long period of trial and error orthotic treatment at a podiatry clinic to get me back on my feet, I wonder how quick that same Consultant would have been to get that little lot on his private books.

[b]El-bent[/b]
Wait until you see what they have lined up for the justice system.

Start a thread. This stuff needs talking about.

The legal aid changes are another very telling factor in this debate.

http://beforeitsnews.com/economy/2013/03/60-of-us-bankruptcies-due-to-medical-bills-while-78-of-those-bankruptcies-have-insurance-coverage-2500492.html

Have you seen the links on the right hand side?

Everything from conspiracy theories to insane ramblings!

Having experienced both private and public healthcare susyems, the NHS is a beautiful thing that constanlty needs to reform but is worth holding on to.

To all the naysayers and privatisation experts out there- tell me you will be happy with 60 quid visits to the GP and several thousand pound bills when you fall off your Carbon 29er in some man made trail centre

(lol- the last bit is a joke but a poke at some individuals who can afford private healthcare at a drop of a hat)

Here you are thisisnotaspoon, perhaps CNN is a more acceptable news provider for you :

[url= http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/ ]Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies[/url]

They're quoting The American Journal of Medicine btw, I'm assuming this particular journal isn't part of the conspiracy theorist movement ?

[i]Private providers can no doubt turn a profit on those straightforward jobs,[/i]

You got it about face, patients go to MOS when they are complex, when our general dentists don't think they can do it. So actually it's not a cherry pick, quite the reverse in fact. the private clinic do it as it gives them access to complex cases, as it makes them better dentists.

[i]Those private providers have a legal duty to act in the best interests of their stake holders, no?[/i]

No, our dentists are essentially contract workers to avoid exactly this sort of conflict of interest.

Thing is, there are surgeons in the NHS who take pride in the fact that they don't know the cost of things...which is fine, if you've got a bottomless pit of cash, but when you've got a patient list of 6000, and you've spent your budget by patient 4500, that's bad.

If you want a snappy one liner, the NHS is utterly brilliant at patient (singular) care, it's utterly failing at patient (plural) management.

My cousin's husband and daughter need regular meds, one for high BP and the other for asthma, they live in sunny california and it consumes 25% (yep that one full quarter) of each of their salaries just for the drugs and bi-monthly check ups. Their medical insurance premiums are sky high, they leaped up several fold as soon as each of them was diagnosed with an ongoing health problem.

Gail had her gall bladder removed (same op as MrsCat) we got it nice and free, it cost Gail $7000 as her excess for the insurance.

Competition does not enter into it, there is nowhere else to go, you have to use the services there in front of you, the prices of alternative treatment centres are within a few dollars, to quote Gail "You just gotta suck it up!" (yes she has developed a hideous Californian accent).

D'ya think Virgin will run maternity wards?

No - that'll be taken up by Easy.

Appreciate the feedback, nickc.

thisisnotaspoon - Member
http://beforeitsnews.com/economy/2013/03/60-of-us-bankruptcies-due-to-medical-bills-while-78-of-those-bankruptcies-have-insurance-coverage-2500492.html
br />
Have you seen the links on the right hand side?

Everything from conspiracy theories to insane ramblings!

Shall I go on or will that do?
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS

I might be being thick but I can't find any definition on the World Bank site of what this covers? What like for like comparison is it making?

I'm not pro-privatisation particularly, just not convinced NHS is going to be the best way forward, especially is the UK population at large is making a heroic effort to stuff it's face full of crap and make itself ill, without thinking about what this is going to cost the taxpayer...
+ we're all going to be around for close to a century and I can't imagine looking after all those doddery oldies being too cheap...

Would I be right in thinking in the US your likely to have healthcare insurance denied if you make more than 3 claims?

This is not a statement, it's a question.

ernie_lynch - Member
I suppose you haven't heard of the BMA, the royal colleges, and all the other healthcare professional organisations, who are opposing the privatization of the NHS ?

Its funny when the same people who were opposed to the establishment of the NHS in the first place (that is until they were bribed with a new pension among other things) are now perceived to be its saviours. What a funny old world!

Not really that funny. The BMA [i]were[/i] opposed to the creation of the NHS, what would be peculiar would be that if after decades of proving what a success the NHS has been, and the stunning benefits it has provided to the British people, the BMA was still opposed to it. That would be very peculiar indeed.

Its funny when the same people who were opposed to the establishment of the NHS in the first place (that is until they were bribed with a new pension among other things) are now perceived to be its saviours. What a funny old world!

Funny = ironic, not ha,ha

Consultants know exactly which side of the bread is buttered. Why change a winning situation for them?

Consultants know exactly which side of the bread is buttered.

So you think patient care doesn't come into it then ?

That is a remarkably low opinion that you have of senior healthcare professionals teamhurtmore.

Sadly at the moment it comes from painful personal experience Ernie. Plus listening to the now departed Sir ? Nicholson being interviewed recently about his priorities. In order - his systems, then his staff oh and then the sick people. From the horses mouth......

I thought David Nicholson was a civil servant, not a consultant or member of the BMA ?

He certainly knew "which side of the bread is buttered", that's for sure - I'll give you that.

And he was certainly handsomely rewarded for failure, as is now the custom in the upper echelons of British management.

But what a pisspoor piece of evidence to back up your claim that "Consultants know exactly which side of the bread is buttered" 😕

Its funny when the same people who were opposed to the establishment of the NHS in the first place (that is until they were bribed with a new pension among other things) are now perceived to be its saviours.

The majority of doctors were opposed to the introduction of the NHS as they believed that they would lose money as a result of it.

we could do a uni essay on this and some short soundbites late at night wont cover it.
They never opposed universal health care just how it was implemented