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The same as they do for Brits (or any other nationality that isn’t their own), plenty of countries have various tags and systems you have to buy or sign upto before you’re allowed on their roads.
Such as?
A mandatory tracking and billing system installed into a car as proposed here is a little different from slapping a (UK) sticker on your bumper and a hi-vis in the glovebox.
Such as?
Swiss Vignette?
Also, that would be what, a thousandth of the cars on the road even if you included lorries? If the objective was just road pricing then you could just read the odometer at the port. You could even make the 'black box' look like the cheap discounted option by applying the peak rush hour rate to the odometer reading or buy the black box and get a 'discount'. It's somewhere between a non-issue (even the Daily Express hasn't claimed that immigrants cars are polluting our air), and an easily solved one.
Such as?
When travelling across Africa it is pretty common to pick up and fit new number plates at the border when you switch countries. That would be enough for an ANPR system or you could add a little tech
That would be enough for an ANPR system or you could add a little tech
given the vast majority of cars coming into the country are from europe and have perfectly legible plates, it'd be pretty easy to build an anpr system that can read them all and figure out from markings which country the car is from, tally up the costs and assign them a bill payable at exit from the country. I can only think of non-roman-alphabet characters being an issue, and tbh the number of cars with those is miniscule
I'd want something a little harder to duplicate than a number plate. Currently the best thing to do with your car if you start getting speeding and parking fines that aren't yours is to block the exit to the gendarmerie with your car so it's towed away and impounded and you can thereby prove it's not you or your car breaking the law.
All of that ^^ is relying on tech which is expensive to install, maintain, monitor and process and which requires intervention at national, potentially international, level.
Far and away the cheapest, simplest option is just to make short journeys in particular really bloody difficult. Low Traffic Neighbourhoods, School Streets etc generally don't impact too much on long journeys but they do make it more difficult to drive your little darling the 500m to the school gates or to "just nip" to the shop at the end of the road.
I agree that EVs are potentially going to make things far worse since they're exempt from VED, CAZ/ULEZ charges, and there's the idea that as they're emissions free it's fine to just drive them that 500m or so. Therefore it needs to be made impractical to do those kind of short journeys.
From my perspective if you make it more and more difficult and expensive to drive into the city centre then I just wont bother going. I have not intention of using the buses and thats the only alternative. It will just mean that I do more and more shopping on line and footfall into the city centres will continue to decline.
As for electric cars the less said the better. My wife spends her whole life helping academics do primary research into how to make electric cars viable. The concensus is that the current approach will not work and will be obsolete within 5 years. Until they come up with a better way of storing the energy than glorified mobile phone batteries stuck together there is no way I, or any of the academics will be buying one.
As for electric cars the less said the better.
As you go on to slag off electric cars with no substance beyond a concensus of your wife's mates can we have your views on ICEs for balance please, chrismac?
they’re exempt from VED
Don't hold your breath too long. As soon as those suckers are mainstream they'll be taxed to the nines.
All of that ^^ is relying on tech which is expensive to install, maintain, monitor and process and which requires intervention at national, potentially international, level.
Have you seen the cost of a car?
The average* is apparently £3.5k a year. And that doesn't include the additional societal costs of road building/maintenance, healthcare, flooding, etc.
* https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-cost-run-car-uk
Don’t hold your breath too long. As soon as those suckers are mainstream they’ll be taxed to the nines.
Wasn't it already in the budget to ved* them from 2025
*Tax but just keeping the pendants happy 😁
Swiss Vignette?
So, a sticker then.
Also, that would be what, a thousandth of the cars on the road even if you included lorries? If the objective was just road pricing then you could just read the odometer at the port.
(and other suggestions).
The proposal was to charge drivers a fee per day for car usage. You can't calculate that from entry and exit odometer readings, nor could you enforce it using some sort of temporary black box that they could just leave in their hotel room for a week (unless that also recorded mileage, sounds costly).
Don’t hold your breath too long. As soon as those suckers are mainstream they’ll be taxed to the nines.
If the aim is to reduce the number of cars, then a big fixed annual payment would I think be the way forward. It would get rid of the 2k miles a year trundle into town types, whilst being more cost effective per mile for the journeys for which cars are most useful.
Might convince people to become a 1 car family, or encourage car-club use, combined with public transport, cycling etc.
Or the polar opposite is to have some elaborate pay per mile, black box or ANPR solution where diffrent roads are different prices, varying on time of day. Which, unless implemented perfectly, would result in more or longer journeys as people try to game the system to save money, whilst retaining the sunk cost argument that they already own it so why not drive it.
Far and away the cheapest, simplest option is just to make short journeys in particular really bloody difficult. Low Traffic Neighbourhoods, School Streets etc generally don’t impact too much on long journeys but they do make it more difficult to drive your little darling the 500m to the school gates or to “just nip” to the shop at the end of the road.
Honestly, I'd like to see a lot more town centres and residential areas be restricted to pedestrians or residents. Driving to visit my parnter's daughter, I can take the main roads or I can wind my way through a series of residential side streets. The latter takes, generously, maybe 20 seconds off the journey. No-one should really even be entertaining the idea driving through it.
Similarly, I live on a road parallel to the main road. There is little reason for anyone to be driving down it unless they're going to / from the houses here. Yet as soon as the main road gets busy it's like the M6, everyone uses it as a rat-run to dodge the traffic / mini-roundabout.
If there were a tax/tariff system in place that penalises you for using the car on journeys under a specific distance or at particular times I would be all for it.
A near perfect mechanism already exists, we even saw an unintended limited trial of it during the "Fuel Crisis" in 2021. it just needs a government brave enough to crank the price of Dino-juice up to £3.50+ a litre and then keep pegged to inflation.
Successive governments have simply chickened out of using the Fuel price Escalator for it's intended purpose. They've all been too scared of the Mondeo Men's wrath at the poles.
It's basically the old Chris Rock Gun control solution but for Cars (headphones if you're in the office):
If the aim is to reduce the number of cars, then a big fixed annual payment would I think be the way forward.
We already have that, it doesn't stop people buying / leasing new cars.
In any case, what you're doing here isn't discouraging people from driving, it's preventing poor people from driving.
Or the polar opposite is to have some elaborate pay per mile, black box or ANPR solution where diffrent roads are different prices, varying on time of day.
We already have both of those too: fuel duty and toll roads respectively. Pushing people off motorways and onto side streets is probably the opposite of what we want to be doing.
It depresses me more then anything else. People always use the same excuses "we live out of town, i need to carry tools" blah blah blah. Yes, fine, but i would be interested to know how many people snarling up town actually do need to carry tools, or do live out of town.
Not my neighbours jumping in the truck to take the kids to a school you can see from the house.
The school have had a road closed to make school drop off safer, but the same 10 or 20 cock weasles every day seem to think it doesnt apply to them "im just dropping my kids off". no SHIT sherlock.
several i know for a fact live maybe 200m way, and i know for a fact then return the cars to the house rather than travel onwards.
And then last week, we had sheet ice. A few people who had the audacity to cycle to school, and a few had the misfortune to take a tumble as you might expect, and on the local Farcebork groups have been hounded for being "wildly irresponsible", meanwhile few seem to consider that sliding your car down the hill, bumping off parked cars on both sides while pedestrian pupils are walking to school along the adjoining pavement was anything of the sort. Wheel spinning and revving and tooting abounded.
I get it though. We cant all be cargo bike tossers. We are one of a growing number so our 3 wheeler was awesome in the ice and snow. cant fall off it, and light enough to be totally under control.
And its so reassuring to see them about. We have cargo bike "traffic" now in Exeter. Not at all unusual to be sat at lights with 2 or 3 more, and most comments and waves from drivers and pedestrians are positive. Its changing. Slowly.
Yes, fine, but i would be interested to know how many people snarling up town actually do need to carry tools, or do live out of town.
Around 20-25%.
Most of them (~20%) could be covered by *very* simple alternatives, mostly properly funded public transport (bus, tram, light rail). The 75% who don't really need to be driving would also be served well by that, and cycling/walking.
The other ~5% really don't have any other option (long drive, carrying materials, disabled and so on).
TBH, if you took 95% of the traffic OFF the road, and add in an utter shit load of buses and trams, the traffic that remained would be so much smoother flowing it'd be almost hilarious. In most cities and towns you could probably half the speed limits and half the amount of space allocated for cars and STILL get to your destination quicker.
A near perfect mechanism already exists, we even saw an unintended limited trial of it during the “Fuel Crisis” in 2021. it just needs a government brave enough to crank the price of Dino-juice up to £3.50+ a litre and then keep pegged to inflation.
A nice idea, but i disagree. Fatheads driving 2 miles to school will pay an extra couple of pence, or pounds a week.
People who live out in the stick, hauliers, people making 300 mile round trips at the weekends to look after dying relatives will be priced out of journeys that are much more justifiable.
I met a guy who drove a 7L AMG Merc White, Leased, Thirsty. I asked him how he handled the single digit fuel consumption.
"Well its only a mile and a half to the office, and i have a ford focus for longer journeys"
We already have that, it doesn’t stop people buying / leasing new cars.
In any case, what you’re doing here isn’t discouraging people from driving, it’s preventing poor people from driving.
The cost of driving already stops poor people from driving.
The argument that increasing the cost of driving would impact the poorest is a non sequitur because "poor" people already don't drive. It's a lie made up by the middle classes and motoring organizations to justify their opposition to fuel duty, car duty, and whatever else.
People who live out in the stick, hauliers, people making 300 mile round trips at the weekends to look after dying relatives will be priced out of journeys that are much more justifiable.
Counter proposal.
Fuel up to £3.50+. Public transport free at point of use (taxpayer funded), AND with a guaranteed level of service and interconnection. enough busses and trains to make it a viable altenative. Bring back the post bus!
I have not intention of using the buses and thats the only alternative.
Do you mind if I ask why? Park and Ride schemes in most cities work pretty well, especially now the price has been slashed to £2 each way.
I doubt your wife is telling you the truth about her research because the claims you make on her behalf are patently wrong, and I’m merely a layman.
We already have both of those too: fuel duty and toll roads respectively. Pushing people off motorways and onto side streets is probably the opposite of what we want to be doing.
Agreed, that was my point. Charging for motorways and or per mile is going to make longer car journeys (ones most suited to private automobiles) notably more expensive, while that 2 mile round trip school run or pop to the local shop for a paper and some fags (which is what is really causing the issues), barely touches the sides.
In any case, what you’re doing here isn’t discouraging people from driving, it’s preventing poor people from driving.
A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation. ― Gustavo Petro.
I doubt your wife is telling you the truth about her research because the claims you make on her behalf are patently wrong, and I’m merely a layman.
Not actually "wrong" just massively simplified.
The current trend of massive cars with huge batteries is a very unstable model, and cannot continue indefinitely.
In *MY* opinion, as someone who is working on delivering the tech, what we need is smaller, lighter, shorter range cars with faster charging. A 30-40kWh B/C sized car which will charge to 80% in 5-7 minutes and maybe a C/D with 10kWh more would cover 99% of 95% of drivers needs.
Christ, even A/B sized car with ~150km range would cover a massive number of peoples *actual* needs, rather than what the marketing team tell them they need.
it just needs a government brave enough to crank the price of Dino-juice up to £3.50+ a litre and then keep pegged to inflation.
Good luck getting people to vote for that.
People who live out in the stick, hauliers, people making 300 mile round trips at the weekends to look after dying relatives will be priced out of journeys that are much more justifiable.
Taking those edge cases one at a time.
People who live out in the stick - reverse the trend for rural workers to be priced out of their own villages by disincentivising the middle classes from being able to live out their rural idyl whilst commuting from Clader to Manachester by car. Living as far away from work as people do is part of the problem, especially when for most people it's self inflicted.
Hauliers - despite apocalyptical predictions each time the rice goes up, the shelves never end up empty as a result of the price of fuel. The actual transport fuel cost of even something relatively heavy and dense like milk is pennies. If supermarkets can still sell own brand bottled water for pennies a liter, then the cost of haulage is tiny in the average household budget.
Lower car use means less cancer, dementia, heart disease, strokes, heart attacks, better end of life quality, etc, etc, etc. We all know this, it's just ignored, which is what the study shows. And in the short term, that's still only another ~£30 on that trip, grandad might need to open up a second packet of Worthers to bribe you up to see him, but spare a thought for someone poorer than you who already can't afford such trips but is also faced by underfunded public transport. Why don't you soapbox on their behalf instead?
Personally I have/had a cargo bike and used it extensively for just about everything. However, I was using it for things I was previously using a trailer for.
It's awesome.
Offered to give it to my sister and she said using it would be too much hassle.... 🤔
VED doesn't deter people. Higher fuel prices might. A monthly bill for the miles covered at xyz times might.
my wife isn’t going to pedal a 60kg bike with 2 20kg kids on it around.
But I don’t think my wife would make it to work.
I get it.... it's women's fault.
Lazy wot nots.
They've all got nice nails, though.
reverse the trend for rural workers to be priced out of their own villages by disincentivising the middle classes from being able to live out their rural idyl whilst commuting from Clader to Manachester by car.
I don't think that's the main problem with rural living. The problem is that even without incomers people can live a long way from their jobs for all sorts of reasons, and public transport is very expensive to provide due to low population density.
Hauliers – despite apocalyptical predictions each time the rice goes up, the shelves never end up empty as a result of the price of fuel.
Yeah and the Y2K bug was a non-issue too, remember how nothing went wrong?
Park and Ride schemes in most cities work pretty well, especially now the price has been slashed to £2 each way
The £2 price makes a big difference. I got the bus into Leeds from Harrogate for £2 e/w so loads cheaper than driving/parking. Plus I got to ride on a double-decker!
Yeah and the Y2K bug was a non-issue too, remember how nothing went wrong?
In haulage terms it's
Y2k1
Y2k2
Y2k3
.......
.......
Y2k21
Y2k22
At some point I'm inclined to believe their business model is fundamentally sound whatever the price.
Just because someone solve a problem doesn't mean there wasn't a problem, or that it was solved for free.
I get it…. it’s women’s fault.
Lazy wot nots.
They’ve all got nice nails, though.
what's your point? My wife (as an occasional cyclist who does a bunch of other physical activity) refuses to ride my cargo bike as its too heavy for her to be able to manouver easily, especially with kids onboard, and its not geared in a way that she'd make it up hills. I, as a keen cyclist am willing to make sacrifices to use the cargo bike. I can put out 400w to get up a hill, I doubt she can manage half that - when she rides an unloaded shopper bike, and I am on the cargo bike with 2 kids, our pace is fairly evenly matched
I get it…. it’s women’s fault.
She's unfit because she doesn't ride, not because she's a woman. Surely you can appreciate that?
unfit because she doesn’t ride
I, as a keen cyclist am willing to make sacrifices to use the cargo bike. I can put out 400w to get up a hill,
which is a valid observation. what amount of the population would use their free time to become fit enough for daily cycle transport? Not just via bike riding, there will be people who are fit from various hobbies. But not a large chunk of the populace, I wager.
I should just link back to my e-scooter thread. In my mind a much better urban transport solution than a bike or ebike.
I should just link back to my e-scooter thread. In my mind a much better urban transport solution than a bike or ebike.
Not disagreeing although I think they could be complementary to bikes / e-bikes rather than a replacement. However that again is a complete mess of trial schemes, illegal use of personal ones and a public transport system that has largely moved to banning carriage of the things based on safety fears (batteries exploding).
Again, needs a change in the law and Government are desperate to avoid the inevitable barrage of complaints from legalising them.
Most of them (~20%) could be covered by *very* simple alternatives, mostly properly funded public transport (bus, tram, light rail). The 75% who don’t really need to be driving would also be served well by that, and cycling/walking.
I am in that 20% and I did indeed get the bus/walk (7 & 3 miles respectively) to work when there was a 07:15 and 08:00 bus. Both were stopped and now the one bus a day that I get in my village is at 11:00 which unless you work afternoon shifts is no use to anyone that works. 80% of the time I was the only person on the bus for a 7 mile trip so can see why the service was stopped...
People who live out in the stick, hauliers, people making 300 mile round trips at the weekends to look after dying relatives will be priced out of journeys that are much more justifiable.
Counter proposal.
Fuel up to £3.50+. Public transport free at point of use (taxpayer funded), AND with a guaranteed level of service and interconnection. enough busses and trains to make it a viable altenative. Bring back the post bus!
There is no "consequence free solution" anything you propose is inevitably going to price the poorest off the roads first, and yes it has to go hand in hand with huge investment in public transport.
Harsh as it might seem those Rural Dwellers don't get a pass. people lived in the countryside before Cars were plentiful and cheap they'll have to make the same evaluation of priorities and resources as the rest of us.
Leccy cars aren't immune from this, it's not like a KW is getting cheaper and you're paying a substantial mark-up to buy the stupid car anyway.
If the overriding goal is to reduce car use the simplest way is to make it far too expensive to just piss fuel away on walkable/cyclable/busable journeys. If the goal is to enable people to keep on making bad decisions, then do nothing...
I'm as guilty as anyone of being lazy and occasionally using my car for journeys I could have walked or pedalled, the only way you'll moderate mine and my family's behaviour is to make it exorbitantly expensive to drive, and I suppose it's only "fair" if it's one rule/escalation of costs for all, with the carrot of making public/active transport affordable and effective.
In *MY* opinion, as someone who is working on delivering the tech, what we need is smaller, lighter, shorter range cars with faster charging. A 30-40kWh B/C sized car
In the opinion of buyers that's not enough capacity and the wrong strategy. I didn't buy the original Zoé in 2012 because the 23kWh battery wouldn't take me skiing and back. I bought the 40kWh when it was launched and it was fine but long trips required planning especially in Winter. Then I bought the 50kWh facelift when that came out and find the extra 25% makes long trips disproportionately easier. The sales volumes have followed battery capacity - it's now a viable alternative to an ICE.
If you want to sell BEVs to the masses they need batteries big enough to avoid faffing and range angst.
My trip yeterday was in very unfavourable conditions for a BEV. 0°C in the garage so economy was crap while the battery warmed up. After an hour economy improved but still wasn't great because the heater was no doubt pulling a kW as it was -4°C when we arrive in a ski resort. 42% batery when we parked up. Two and a half hours skiing later we returned, -2°C battery at 34%. 20% of the battery capacity lost in zero kms as it cooled down. Enough to get home though. With a smaller battery I'd have been hunting for a working charge point or driving at 50kmh - people don't want that on a day trip.
As you go on to slag off electric cars with no substance beyond a concensus of your wife’s mates can we have your views on ICEs for balance please, chrismac?
They arent my wife’s mates, they are the views of respected Russell Group University professors who collaborate with some of the biggest engineering companies in the country. There is literally millions being poured into research to come up with either batteries that will work well enough long term for cars, alternative fuels such as hydrogen as a battery / fuel cell, and what purposes can ‘dead’ car batteries be used for once they are not able to hold enough charge to power cars.
My view of ICE is that they are along way from perfect, but they are all we have at the moment until the scientists and engineers of the world figure something better out. Environmentally its far better for me to carry on using my 7 year old diesel car than buying a new electric one with the carbon footprint of manufacturing it. My VED is only £20 per year so way lower than the proposed EV VED that is on its way. Why would I change?
Do you mind if I ask why? Park and Ride schemes in most cities work pretty well, especially now the price has been slashed to £2 each way.
Park and Ride is the worst of both worlds. I still take the car so drive 80% of the distance from home to the city centre to get to the car park. Then I still get the inconvenience of a bus timetable to work around. For now I can park close enough to town for 3 hours, long enough, for less than the cost of park and ride. They make sense for commuting where parking gets expensive, but I havent worked for a company that is in the city centre or that doesnt provide parking for over a decade. I have no intention of starting now
which is a valid observation. what amount of the population would use their free time to become fit enough for daily cycle transport? Not just via bike riding, there will be people who are fit from various hobbies. But not a large chunk of the populace, I wager.
How long would that 'transition' take though? A week, a month, a day? Riding <5 miles is realistically within the fitness of all but the physically disabled and morbidly obese. 5miles is barely enough to qualify as the 30 minutes moderate exercise that it's recommended everyone does daily. They might be slow, and a bit uncomfortable on their Sports Direct BSO, but they'll make it.
My view of ICE is that they are along way from perfect, but they are all we have at the moment
FFS we have extremely good BEVs. Visit Renault, Tesla, Fiat, Peugeot, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Kia... .
If you keep your 7-year-old diesel another seven years it'll burn about 3 times its weight in diesel which can't be recycled and will greehouse the planet. I think you are overestimating the CO2 payback period on a BEV. And you'll contribute to the foul stinking poisonous air we breathe.
You'd change because you care about the air quality people you drive past breathe and the kind of planet your kids will be living on.
I still take the car so drive 80% of the distance from home to the city centre to get to the car park.
Yes, but by using the park and ride you’re reducing both the congestion and pollution in the city centre. The fewer cars in city centres the more efficiently a bus network runs.
Public transport is not a panacea and it won’t offer a door to door service. Interesting to see the damage done to London by black cab mafia.
It’s a very tricky one given the country seems to be geared towards car usage. I’m lucky in that I work from three sites. One I can walk or casually cycle to (about two miles), one is a 15 minute train journey after a 25 minute walk to the station. The last one, however, sees me driving.
It’s only 11 miles away so within cycling distance. The issues are that it involves traveling down the A6 and there are no showers. I’ve done it a couple of times and it’s not great tbh. Most folk wouldn’t even consider it an option. Changing that mindset and providing adequate facilities at the destination are two of many obstacles.
My view of ICE is that they are along way from perfect, but they are all we have at the moment
What the hell took my wife to work and back for 40p today then?
Riding <5 miles is realistically within the fitness of all but the physically disabled and morbidly obese.
I think you'd be surprised when there are hills involved, and that's ignoring any traffic problems that might exist. And the desire to do that in all weathers when you don't need to isn't exactly common
I live near a school, school pick up time a long line of cars with engines idling with 1 driver in. I know it's cold but I bet it's the same in summer with air con.
A local housing Dev was denied planning permission, one of the objections was increased vehicle traffic passing said school.
Sad really, the parents sitting in idling cars are the very ones who s kids will be struggling to buy houses in future.
As said on page 1, 1 family drive about 300 metres to drop kids off. I really hope they are going onwards to work after.
I think you’d be surprised when there are hills involved, and that’s ignoring any traffic problems that might exist. And the desire to do that in all weathers when you don’t need to isn’t exactly common
I think you need to re-frame that in a few ways
1) The traffic is only bad because people in cars. Remove people from cars and there's no bad traffic. Each person on a bike is one less car and one step closer to the critical mass required to get everyone away from saying "but the traffic is too bad to ride a bike".
2) "don't need to". Other than the global warming issue and the air pollution need to, and the obesity epidemic need to and the financial and societal costs of the above. Apart from that there's no need to get anyone out of their cars.
BUt they’re going to need to do something because revenue from fuel duty and “road tax” will fall dramatically as the shift to EV and hybrid increases.
i suspect that fuel duty will be added to the electricity used to power vehicles and road tax will be levied on electric cars.
i believe it was thatcher who declared that cars were good for the economy. it was a government policy to get people driving and it worked and it is now part of the UK culture.
I think you need to re-frame that in a few ways
1) The traffic is only bad because people in cars. Remove people from cars and there’s no bad traffic. Each person on a bike is one less car and one step closer to the critical mass required to get everyone away from saying “but the traffic is too bad to ride a bike”.
2) “don’t need to”. Other than the global warming issue and the air pollution need to, and the obesity epidemic need to and the financial and societal costs of the above. Apart from that there’s no need to get anyone out of their cars.
I understand what you’re trying to get across but molgrips is correct. There is absolutely a need but there is no want. People don’t want to get out of their cars. It adds time and effort to their day. Things will take longer, they’ll have less free time, possibly need to change clothes etc.
It’s clear that most folk don’t care about global warming to the degree that they’re willing to make real change. Therefore how do you get people to want to cycle. Including in the rain and in the dark and cold winter months? Because you’re fat and killing the planet isn’t doing it so what will?
i suspect that fuel duty will be added to the electricity used to power vehicles
Impractical because that will also stop lighting their home office and cooking, and even if you do people will use off-grid solar to charge.
Taxation will have to be very blunt, a car tax, or more sophisticated, a black box.
People don’t want to get out of their cars. It adds time and effort to their day. Things will take longer, they’ll have less free time, possibly need to change clothes etc.
Because we (as a country) have spent the last 60+ years building everything around making the car as convenient as possible, making sure there's a shedload of free parking, designing roads, neighbourhoods and towns around free movement of cars, not free movement of people.
We're trying to undo that and every step - every single attempt to remove some parking, restrict some traffic, add a bike lane - is being fought tooth and nail. People can't (or don't want to) imagine anything other than driving. Cycling is hard and you get sweaty and you don't look cool and there's nowhere to park the bike and you'd need a shower and the traffic makes it too dangerous..and...and
Every excuse under the sun.
Some of it, notably the traffic one, is actually valid so you need to reduce the traffic and/or provide segregated facilities but that means taking away precious car space so it gets opposed and we're back at stage 1.
What makes the other points not valid? Facilities is a big one for me. I’d be more inclined to cycle the eleven miles to work if there were adequate facilities.
You need to understand we’re on a cycling forum so pretty predisposed to riding bikes. If I suggested to colleagues investing in a bike, panniers and other kit to ride ten miles or more in all weather I’d simply be ignored or laughed at. You need to change mindsets towards cycling before putting in the infrastructure.
You need to change mindsets towards cycling before putting in the infrastructure.
Other way around.
You'll never change mindset while people are looking out their car windows at lycra folk on fast road bikes zipping in and out of traffic.
That looks dangerous, it's insane, it's stupid, how dare they...
No-one driving a car is going to think "ooh, I'll get a bike, it looks quicker". They'll be sat there fuming about reckless cyclists.
Put in proper segregated lanes, enable casual cycling in normal clothes and people will actually think "that looks OK". That's the mindset change.
I disagree completely but such is the nature of forum debate. The extra time and riding in shit weather have been the main drivers for not doing so when I’ve asked colleagues. That and the fact they just don’t own a bike or cycle any other time.
Again, I’m assuming you’re a cyclist like me and therefore enjoy it. That’s simply not the case for a lot of people. Sticking in some cycling lanes won’t convince folk to start riding any real distances to work. Couple of miles at a push for most.
People can’t (or don’t want to) imagine anything other than driving. Cycling is hard and you get sweaty and you don’t look cool and there’s nowhere to park the bike and you’d need a shower and the traffic makes it too dangerous..and…and
Every excuse under the sun.
This is a very real thing in my view. There's not apathy, there's strong resistance to anything other than car taking primacy.
Cycle lanes are all very well but I haven't been out on my bike for the last week because of the risk of ice.
With the change in weather I got out today for a ride across Glasgow and back. I used a few sections where there are excellent segregated cycle lanes. Didn't see more than one other cyclist using them.
https://goo.gl/maps/xuDuxvcvLdK695XQ8
https://goo.gl/maps/uuK1LDJ6A7F9YGAVA
On th other hand a road I used to use has been ruined by a poor quality facility. With 6 lanes in a 30mph area sharing the road was never a problem. Now part of the inside lane has been seperated by bollards so the vehicle tyres no longer sweep the crap off it and it is a poorly drained puncture magnet. Now I avoid it.
https://goo.gl/maps/dRqteySokpmtrjCY7
From November to March I think you will struggle in the Scottish climate to persuade people to adopt cycling as a commuting mode.
In the spirit of giving credit where it is due I have noticed these secure bike lockers have appeared all over the city. To avoid anyone living in a flat needing to carry their bike upstairs and store in in a flat. Assuming the locks are a decent standard and it is a low end bike being stored they look like a good idea.
So how would we change that thinking? One of the big issues in my opinion is working hours and location. A lot of folk travel long distances to work long hours. The idea of tacking on another hour or more to that each day just doesn’t appeal to most folk. To be honest I can see why.
What are other countries doing that we aren’t?
Cycling is hard and you get sweaty and you and you’d need a shower and the traffic makes it too dangerous..and…and
Every excuse under the sun.
These bits are actually valid though are they not? Cycling is hard for people who don’t regularly cycle. I find running hard because I don’t ever run. The shower thing is just sensible if any sort of distance is involved. Christ, I work with people who drive to work who I would not want to be anywhere near if they’d cycled and not showered after. It would be a biohazard!
What would encourage me to cycle commute would be good showers and lockers + drying room at work. None of which we have. My work is a good 45-50m ride away. Too far for a gentle non sweaty pootle. As a regular cyclist I would consider it. In fact in a previous job which also had secure bike parking I did bike commute for years. Persuading non cyclists that 45m on the bike at midnight after a lateshift is better than 15m in a nice warm car will take some doing. I only know 1 colleague who rides to work every day. But he is also a club cyclists and track cyclist. Not the demographic that needs convincing.
I used to work in a planning department in Scotland. So they're looking at things like 20 minute neighborhoods, increasing active travel, reducing carbon etc.
However, nearly all of them went out to the local supermarket at lunch, all in their own cars, one a 10 minute walk, the other about 20 minute walk.
I suggested we all chip in to get 1 or 2 elephant bikes for our service so people could use them for the short distance to the supermarket or if nipping to the post office etc. We'd be showing a good example, helping a charity, bit of exercise etc. Out of 34 people in the office not one was interested! It would have maybe been £20 each from well paid people to have a couple of office bikes.
Only two of us rode to work when our work schedules required (didn't need the car for visits) and we had changing rooms, lockers and showers.
Most people are just too lazy, see cycling on roads as too dangerous and not transport. They'd rather go to a gym or sports club if they want to exercise, and happily drive there and back.
Also given where I worked, when they did try to push for more active travel friendly developments, reduced parking and speed limits, and not allow housing development outside of existing settlements the bloody dinosaur councillors would then put a cabosh on that and approve the developments! We even had a case where Roads were going to reduce a speed limit to encourage active travel (as was in their powers to do without involving committees) and the Councillors played hell and stopped it complaining they'd not had a say.
Just look at all the trouble with the Spaces for People funding during COVID. Our authority couldn't even get and agreement to spend the £200k they were allocated because of people complaining it would cause issues for cars. It seems most of what did go in in other places has now been removed .
The argument that increasing the cost of driving would impact the poorest is a non sequitur because “poor” people already don’t drive.
PoorER then. Being poor or not isn't a binary condition.
Making things more expensive does not affect everyone equally, it hits those with less money the hardest. Making fuel £3.50/litre or whatever will cripple those of lower income who may rely on it as a lifeline, whereas the rich simply won't care and will carry on driving their 7L Mercedeseses. It's encouraging a tiered system of privilege and we have enough of that already.
As I said before, if you want to reduce car usage then you have to provide a viable, attractive alternative. I consider buses an absolute last resort because they're often pretty grim and badly in need of cleaning, adding the stigma of being the poor man's transport isn't going to help with that. (Hell, the last time I got a minicab it stank of stale fags, I couldn't get out of there fast enough.)
One of the big issues in my opinion is working hours and location. A lot of folk travel long distances to work long hours.
I had hoped that one of the positives from covid might have been that this mentality would change.
The traffic is only bad because people in cars.......
...... “but the traffic is too bad to ride a bike”.
Yup.. Massive mental leap needs to be made there by most people.
Be the problem or the change.
People don’t want to get out of their cars. It adds time and effort to their day.
The key word here being effort. People are lazy wot nots and will almost always look for an easy excuse. They need pushing in the right direction. More stick, less carrot.
My wife (as an occasional cyclist who does a bunch of other physical activity) refuses to ride my cargo bike as its too heavy for her to be able to manouver easily, especially with kids onboard, and its not geared in a way that she’d make it up hills.
I know several mums in Munich who ride non-assisted cargo bikes, and they just accept that it'll take a bit longer. I know even more who have e-assisted cargo bikes.
She’s unfit because she doesn’t ride, not because she’s a woman. Surely you can appreciate that?
No. Only one of those "issues" cannot be changed.
Yeah, I know, I'm a dick.
I had hoped that one of the positives from covid might have been that this mentality would change.
You and me both Cougar. The slide back to presenteeism has been sad to see. I’m lucky where I work that there is an expectation to be in two days. I’m normally in different locations each day and rarely WFH
I don’t know if the situation will change as a lot of senior management don’t like it and would prefer everyone back full time. I think it’s a generational thing to some degree.
“don’t need to”. Other than the global warming issue and the air pollution need to, and the obesity epidemic need to and the financial and societal costs of the above. Apart from that there’s no need to get anyone out of their cars.
You misunderstand. People don't think they need to cycle, so they won't, when there is a nice warm easy car on the driveway to get into.
In London, many people don't have cars because public transport is so good. Then cycling is cheaper, so they often cycle but they have great PT to fall back on. Few people want to cycle every single day unless forced to. Sometimes it's snowing and icy, sometimes it's blowing a gale, sometimes it's pouring, sometimes you are just dead tired.
So I think what we need is massive PT investment. That way, you'll see people moving to one car or even no car households, and then the situation is ripe for getting more cycling in when it's a nice day and/or you can save some cash but you still have a backup. Better still, integrated PT/cycling where you can put your bike on a train or bus. Or even your scooter for that matter.
Shout out to the Welsh Government for actually attempting this, by the way.
Seems to me a lot is already being done to try and get people out of their cars, but on the sly. No big vote-losing schemes like making fuel £10 per litre, but rather the endless tweaks and faffing that genuinely make driving an absolute ballache, in cities at least (But still not as bad as cycling in the rain or sharing expensive, unreliable public transport with the great unwashed).
Congestion Charge, CAZ, one-way, road narrowing, closed roads, speed cameras, lack of parking etc etc… you’d think it’d be enough to put off all but the people who actually have to be on the roads, trades, couriers, cabbies etc, but it doesn’t really. People just accept it’s going to take longer. Better to be sat almost stationary in their own warm car than the alternatives.
The slide back to presenteeism has been sad to see. I’m lucky where I work that there is an expectation to be in two days. I’m normally in different locations each day and rarely WFH
I don’t know if the situation will change as a lot of senior management don’t like it and would prefer everyone back full time.
I know it's wildly off-topic but, we need to be pushing back more on this. Flexible working is a legal right (until the Retained EU Law bill potentially, anyway), if an employee wants to work from home and can do so effectively then an employer has to allow it or justify why they can't, and "senior management don’t like it" isn't a good enough reason.
In London, many people don’t have cars because public transport is so good.
Public transport in London is exceptional, in both senses of the word. But consider,
1) Population density. The population of London is two thirds greater than the population of Scotland.
2) By the capital's very nature a lot of those people have places to be, whether that's their high-powered job in the centre or various amenities. There's a huge demand for the Tube and similar infrastructure; the party animals are turning in just as the early birds are getting up, the city never stops. Whereas elsewhere in the country it's Catch-22 - no-one uses public transport because it's shit, but it's shit because no-one uses it.
When I was a kid the bus from outside my mum's house into town (or back) was every half an hour; today I think it's twice a day. I mentioned earlier about lifelines but for my mum it's exactly what this is, without that (free to pensioners) bus she's spending her pension on taxis. I could come over and give her a lift but that strips her of what little independence she has left and in any case I usually don't have the car during weekdays since becoming a 1-car family. I'm waiting for the day the service is cancelled completely.
Incidentally,
What happened to school buses? Are they still a thing at all?
(Again) when I was a kid I used to get the bus from the same aforementioned bus stop outside my mum's. It was always full. At school there were three other buses that arrived from other directions (and obviously, after school there were four buses taking everyone home again). I don't recall anything remotely like the chaos of today.
Seems to me a lot is already being done to try and get people out of their cars, but on the sly. No big vote-losing schemes like making fuel £10 per litre, but rather the endless tweaks and faffing that genuinely make driving an absolute ballache, in cities at least
Re Welsh Government again - there have been many proposals to build the M4 relief road over the years, and it's come very very close a few times. But ultimately they have decided not to do it, and instead are spending a ton of money on rationalising the PT network across South Wales.
Population density. The population of London is two thirds greater than the population of Scotland.
That only affects the profitability of public transport. It's not meant to be a money making scheme.
What happened to school buses? Are they still a thing at all?
Yes they are run by companies which in our case is Cardiff Bus. They had to cancel a load during austerity but they are still there. They also give you bus fare if you have to take a public bus and the distance is over three miles. My kids (both girls ) would have to walk through some less nice parts of Cardiff down alleys and lanes and it comes in just under 3 miles. Thanks.
That only affects the profitability of public transport. It’s not meant to be a money making scheme.
But it is a money making scheme. In my previous home the council were totally over a barrel with the local bus companies. Pretty much every time they'd tender for the service they wanted the companies would come in too high (and much higher than before) and so services or whole routes were cut. There was no way we'd get bikes on buses as no one was going to pay for it, certainly not the bus companies free if charge.
That only affects the profitability of public transport. It’s not meant to be a money making scheme.
Perhaps, but it's not meant to be a money-losing scheme either, is it?
its supposed to be a public service.
Perhaps, but it’s not meant to be a money-losing scheme either, is it?
Depends. If you want to reduce car usage significantly, then it might well have to be. The reason we don't have enough now is because it's not always profitable.
People are happy to have central government cough up for roads, even though road building isn't profitable, because they understand roads are needed. Well, it's not specifically roads that we need, it's transport. So let's come up with a better way and fund what we need.
Public transport in Edinburgh is excellent around 20 buses an hour pat my door
Whats the common denominator with london? its a publicly owned service run for the benefit of the citizens. the only two places in the UK IIRC
FFS we have extremely good BEVs. Visit Renault, Tesla, Fiat, Peugeot, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Kia… .
No they don’t. They have hugely expensive ev’s relying on old battery technology that won’t last very long and that no one has a clue what to do with once the battery is useless. They have an extremely short shelf life compared to an ice. No electric car will still be working at 10 years old with it’s original battery. The batteries will all be in landfill and new ones built using some extremely unenvironmentally friendly techniques
No they don’t. They have hugely expensive ev’s relying on old battery technology that won’t last very long and that no one has a clue what to do with once the battery is useless. They have an extremely short shelf life compared to an ice. No electric car will still be working at 10 years old with it’s original battery. The batteries will all be in landfill and new ones built using some extremely unenvironmentally friendly techniques
Shush, you're spoiling the story
😉
They have hugely expensive ev’s relying on old battery technology that won’t last very long and that no one has a clue what to do with once the battery is useless.
And Tesla made the battery structural to the car, which is excellent design in so far as it saves weight, bulk and cost. But (I assume) as soon as the battery is dead you're stuffed.
There are already Tesla's with hundreds of thousands of miles on the clock. This guy got 180k from his first battery back which had an issue fixed under warranty
https://insideevs.com/news/559261/tesla-models-p85-1500000-kilometers/amp/
Plenty of other stories out there so I call bollocks on your 10 year claim. Your wife's mates must be those experts-for-hire that keep writing hatchet jobs on things that conservatives don't like.
Also my EV was 27k although aindidnt buy it. Not hugely expensive by any stretch.
Anyway there's another thread for that.
Whats the common denominator with london? its a publicly owned service run for the benefit of the citizens. the only two places in the UK IIRC
I do think transport should be publicly owned but that's not why London is exceptional. The system was developed when the alternatives involved horses and London also happened to be one of the richest places in the world so they could afford to chuck money at it. Also I don't think it was public when it was built but may be wrong. So yeah be careful of extrapolating from London.
Why is Edinburgh exceptional then? We have a top notch bus service that cost £1.80 for a single journey of any distance, £4.40 for unlimited daily journeys and the network extends well outside the city. The buses are all newish with increasing numbers of hybrids. It integrates properly with the train stations, serves all parts of the city rich and poor alike. Free wifi on all buses, comfy clean and frequent. the bus drivers are even well trained to co operate with cyclists - some of the most courteous drivers in the city. Key points like the road outside my flat you get 20+ buses an hour with many services every 5 mins.
the key thing is its publicly owned and run as a service. No fake competition
Why exceptional you say?
For comparison someone asked on FB about buses running between two market towns (circa 5k population) locally about 8 miles apart. Here’s the exact response.
Three times a week,Monday,Wednesday and Thursday...2 runs each day...look up Community Connexions 278 service...i should know,it's usually ME driving it on Monday and Wednesday..
That’s run by a charity BTW so no fake competition.