You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Another argument fuelled by pure sexual frustration, LOVE IT!
forhunnered!
Stop digging TJ, whether your point is valid or not you're being quite inflammatory about it.
trouble is as I said earlier these leaders* can and do affect political decisions, impacting on your life.I gently roll my eyes when our 'religious leaders' speak forth on matters of morals, problems with gender equality and their very weird obsession with what other people are doing behind closed doors with other people.
*Whom many people of their own religion don't agree with
THM - would you find it strange if we had politically segregated schools as we have religiously segregated ones?
Donk - its that teamhurtmore claims to be liberal, tolerant and openminded while being conservative, intolerant and not receptive to ideas at all.I now understand why he is like this. I do pity him.
Aren't these the same qualities you often display tj, while masquerading as liberal, tolerant and openminded?
Is there perhaps an element of looking into the mirror, and not liking what you see?
I think the majority of folk posting, maybe even including TJ, will have been indoctrinated into the Christian faith as children.. by society, school, parents and the media..
I don't think it's done my agnostic, hedonistic humanist faith too much harm..
maybe THM's kids will lovingly refer to him as Ned Flanders in later years..?
I think religious schools are good for the economy. They teach kids from an early age that there are people willing to be sold [b]anything[/b]
"More to be pitied than hated."
So there is some hate in there then TJ? Come on man, that's not right and you know it.
Yo have not given them anything but indoctrinated them into a superstition. if they were able to "critically analyse all aspects of religion" they would reject it as the load of twaddle it is.
However this does shed a lot of light on your intolerant patronising attitude and your assurance of your own superiority.
This assumption that others must come to the same conclusions as yourself demonstrates a rejection of both critical, analytical thinking and self awareness. It comes across as more of an indoctrinated dogma than any organised religion I have encountered.
TJ is walking a fine line with the Banning stick again i see.
You just cant help with your insults and personal attack on people can you.
You seem to find it so hard to understand why we all dont want to live on planet TJ.
Who are you people? What are you doing on my lawn?
My favourite part was when Cougar said "But I don't know, I can only speak for one person" - or words to that effect. I wish everyone in the world had this self awareness.
Loum - rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational.
Any critical, analytical thought process must reject faith without evidence.
Its the massive hypocriscy and closed mindedness of teamhurtmore I object to - not his faith.
stevenwhyte - you came in with the offensive posts and insults early on. However you are right I will be flirting with teh banhammer so must leave
Loum - rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational.
TJ - you are irrational. You are not a computer, you have emotions. You have your own bias the same as everyone else. Don't forget it.
In other words, I love you.
You big ol' human, you.
Its the massive hypocriscy and closed mindedness of teamhurtmore I object to
Oi, CaptainFlashheart, can we have your graphic again please
rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational.
...and, as such, you'll have a very difficult job converting a 'believer' using rational argument.
Any critical, analytical thought process must reject faith without evidence.
...Exactly, but the 'believers' [i]want[/i] to believe, they don't want to be critical, because they know that their faith won't stand up to scrutiny.
I used to have these debates with people I know, but I've given up as replies such as "....Because it is/the Bible says/well, if you don't question it too much..." don't really lead anywhere.
Personally, I prefer to have an enquiring mind open to new ideas.
Let them carry on, but do let's separate the established (minority) church and state.
How about
[img] 
[/img]
My daughter goes to a non denominational school so is forced to learn about other faiths, it isn't a problem for her or us. In fact it is a positively good thing.
Glad you are happy with your choice unfortunately my child and i are not happy with it but have no choice but to endure this.
Teaching them to respect different cultures is fine. Teaching them the incorrect beliefs of said cultures as to the origins of life and it's meaning is not IMHO.
Your child's experience had nothing to do with religion in general and more to do with one particular person who was appropriately reprimanded - and you know it.
Well of course you have a point there but I am pretty sure of she had not believed in Jesus she would not have asked him. The problem was caused by her belief intitially and then her subsequent poor choice to force it onto others.
Remove her religion and she would not have asked- of course training would have stopped this too. I wonder if they have ever needed to point this ou to someone who was not religious what do you reckon?
... you are right I will be flirting with teh banhammer so must leave....
Pretty sure you have said that in this thread at least once already.... And yet you are still here ?
[b]
Its the massive hypocriscy and inability to follow through with these promises that I object to - not that you are posting your opinion.[/b]
[img] http://www.bighitterclub.com/storage/BigHitterClub-2-27-12.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.bighitterclub.com/storage/BigHitterClub-2-27-12.jp g"/> &sa=X&ei=WpZ9T_3nMeLB0QX6uLWlDQ&ved=0CAwQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNF8jV1XLQD6HlUUDkWcgwFMqIsv3Q[/img]
TJ, where is it written out that we (humans) have to be rational about stuff?
TJ, where is it written out that we (humans) have to be rational about stuff?
It's difficult to live life without any sort of rationality....
Emsz - In the bible? 🙂
to be fair, he didn't say that we have to be rational, only that for something to be rational it has to meet certain requirements of which faith isn't one.
[img] 
[/img]
FWIW, my son has just argued over lunch that my abstention from coffee and chocolate over Lent was (a) ridiculous and (2) misunderstanding the whole concept of 40 days. His studying of Jewish history/theology allows him to understand what 40 days actually refers to (unlike my literal interpretation) and reject the concept of giving up anything for the calender period of Lent. His main interest in theology lies in picking the holes in most accepted aspects of so-called religious life/dogma - of which abstaining over Lent is one example.
So one person draws conclusions (and choses to insult others) from a position of complete ignorance of their positions and one on the basis of critical analysis - sorry, which one should be pitied?
[not arguing here mods, that's my last comment on the issue...nb, no personal attacks from my side!]
sorry, which one should be pitied?
That's personal, isn't it? 😀
TJ, where is it written out that we (humans) have to be rational about stuff?
DOnt worry you are female and we all know that you lot are exempt from being rational 😉
[img] http://www.milb.com/images/2010/01/08/neyZJc76.gi f" target="_blank">http://www.milb.com/images/2010/01/08/neyZJc76.gi f"/> &sa=X&ei=mJh9T9bYCeTT0QWM1_DUDQ&ved=0CAwQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNEa0Px9OeaAB4OTdIFOZWWxgfWKtQ[/img]
It's difficult to live life without any sort of rationality....
While that may be true, why is 'rationality' necessary when it comes to this subject?
I use inverted commas because I disagree with the use of rationality as a term that can only be applied to thought that stems from direct, hard evidence.
I feel it is more about the beliefs of a person, and the reasons behind these beliefs, no matter the source. As does wikipedia, it appears.
Well, as the catholic dad of a big old gay son, my plans for tonight are a takeaway (fish on friday - pah!), lots of jamesons, and sticking my hands (in a rational manner, of course) up the wifes jumper (again).
I wonder if they have ever needed to point this ou to someone who was not religious what do you reckon?
The answer to that is that they would have. I have had very left wing socialist teachers spout their beliefs all the time during lessons before. Stuff that had nothing to do with the lesson but no, they didn't ask me to write a letter to anyone about it.
Teaching them the incorrect beliefs of said cultures as to the origins of life and it's meaning is not IMHO.
They are teaching them what other people with other beliefs believe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, even if you think that said beliefs are wrong. Knowing and understanding what others believe is a reasonable part of bringing children up to be social, even if they don't go on to have those beliefs themselves.
You're going to be spending ages in confession, mitch 😉
and sticking my hands (in a rational manner, of course) up the wifes jumper (again)
yipee - we were missing that, thanks :-). I believe you will have rather a fine time doing it as well
Same old, clubber. Frankly, I dont really give one. 🙂
“rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational.”
I'll offer up some kind of evidence.
Sadly its only my personal evidence but many more would probably agree.
Since regularly attending church over the last year or so….
I have felt never more happy, content, enlightened and free.
To deny myself that, would have to be irrational, would it?
They are teaching them what other people with other beliefs believe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, even if you think that said beliefs are wrong. Knowing and understanding what others believe is a reasonable part of bringing children up to be social, even if they don't go on to have those beliefs themselves.
I get your point but TBH i dont need to know what fanciful mishmash of gibberish they happen to believe in to treat them with respect...see how well I am doing with that sentence 😉
Seriously you dont need to know what people beleieve to be respectful
Good point re the socialist teacher point accepted- yes they must have with other teachers with extreme/strongly held views.
There's a difference between "teaching what others believe" and "presenting belief as fact." And it's a big one.
I'm quite happy for RE lessons to say that "well, Christians believe X, whereas Muslims believe Y." It's when people start lobbying for science lessons to teach creationism that I get cross.
It's irresponsible to teach religion as fact; it's not fact, it's faith, and that doesn't change even if you really believe it a lot.
More power to you, Ro5ey.
You have your reasons for doing things, just as everyone else. These reasons are vast in number. I am probably incapable of fully understanding all of them, as I am alas trapped in my own mind and unable to occupy the brains of others.
Aristotle - Member"rational thought requires evidence. faith is acceptance of belief without evidence thus is not rational."
...and, as such, you'll have a very difficult job converting a 'believer' using rational argument.
"Any critical, analytical thought process must reject faith without evidence."
...Exactly, but the 'believers' want to believe, they don't want to be critical, because they know that their faith won't stand up to scrutiny.
I used to have these debates with people I know, but I've given up as replies such as "....Because it is/the Bible says/well, if you don't question it too much..." don't really lead anywhere.
.Personally, I prefer to have an enquiring mind open to new ideas
Let them carry on, but do let's separate the established (minority) church and state.
well said.
(fish on friday - pah!)
It's Thursday Mitch.
No need to worry about that one at least 😉
Since regularly attending church over the last year or so….I have felt never more happy, content, enlightened and free.
Can I ask why?
Genuine question, not trolling. What do you get out of it, what's changed to give you that contentment?
Hurrah for barnsleymitches son and for Mrs barnsleymitches chest.
Both very splendid things whether divinely ordained or not.
And his fish supper.
While that may be true, why is 'rationality' necessary when it comes to this subject?
Because the period when religion was at the height of it's power in Europe it actively suppressed free thinking. Think Galileo.
Getting my days mixed up there nealglover! Could be the rapture, or (much more likely) the thought of BOOZE and the wifes bazoomers!
Since regularly attending church over the last year or so….I have felt never more happy, content, enlightened and free.
To deny myself that, would have to be irrational, would it
Self reports are not actually facts
Read up on the placebo affect where we can prove people being happy and recovering when being treated with nothing- its not real what is happening but it is still happening.
we can prove humans delude themselves though we may not be able to prove it in your case
You being happy does not prove God exists I am happy and I dont have faith
Listen, while we're wasting time with all things theological (though I have enjoyed tj's posts), there's the making's of a lynchmob over on the bike forum - get me my pitchfork boys, I've a mind to join in!
Ta Barneslymitch. I have enjoyed debating with you in the past. Humour and honesty go a long way
Because the period when religion was at the height of it's power in Europe it actively suppressed free thinking. Think Galileo.
I disagree - The [b]Church[/b] surpressed free thinking using its power of indoctrination, with religion acting as the veil behind which it was disguised.
Either way - I'm trying to say one is rational if they have reasons for their beliefs, no matter the source. Rationality is not the right term for us to be discussing.
It's interesting that the placebo effect has been cited - it is clear that one is capable of feeling better with no real medicine - if the whole point was to feel better (as Ro5ey has), why does it matter?
Humour and honesty go a long way
malevolence and conniving go further 😛
[img] 
[/img]
...although he'd probably return on a Brompton, IMO.
I'm a devout atheist, but I'm also a sucker for old country churches & banging out hymns (as an ex-choir boy, [i]My song is love unknown[/i] still reduces me to jelly). Within reason, I don't consider the beliefs of others' to be my busy-ness, with two exceptions:
1. Creationists targeting education.
2. Politicos trumpeting about shared values.
Otherwise, carry on.
if the whole point was to feel better (as Ro5ey has), why does it matter?
I am pretty sure that believers believe and think it is real rather than just think that they feel better so it does not matter whether it is real or not.
Obviously whether there is a god or not is a crucial issue in this debate
It matters becaus eself reports are a rubbish source of actuial information as we delud eourselves...have you not read a what tyre thread or people arguing on here about how they could have rideen x if they were on y bike [ damn I did that myself last night when in reality I was just too scared to ride it.
I am pretty sure that believers believe and think it is real rather than just think that they feel better so it does not matter whether it is real or not.Obviously whether there is a god or not is a crucial issue in this debate
It matters becaus eself reports are a rubbish source of actuial information as we delud eourselves...have you not read a what tyre thread or people arguing on here about how they could have rideen x if they were on y bike [ damn I did that myself last night when in reality I was just too scared to ride it.
Yeah, I know - the worlds within our heads are very subjective. As such, what is the value of trying to come to terms with absolutes such as the existence of God?
While self reports are very bad for finding cold, hard facts, they're a very good indication of applicability to things going on in your own head, which includes your beliefs.
If religious people use a belief in a God to find happiness, so be it.
Cougar ... Sorry fella… I’ve not even explained it to friends and family… not about to spill my guts on interweb.
Not that there's much too spill…. It’s just a wonderful tonic to modern life… giving me far far more fulfillment than shinny new bike parts I've bought or Big TVs or going on pouncy holiday... etc etc)
Edit ... actually the pouncy holidays bit is a lie.... you'll be hard pressed to beat the maldives.... Heaven on earth maybe ??
as had been said, personal belief and faith are all fine and lovely, generally meddling in and occasionally ****ing up non-believers lives is not.If religious people use a belief in a God to find happiness, so be it.
Cougar ... Sorry fella… I’ve not even explained it to friends and family… not about to spill my guts on interweb.
I was meaning more broadly than that. Is it the sense of community, or a belief in a god reassures you, that sort of thing.
But, no worries.
Sorry Junky been out;
Did you mention your beliefs in your application?
No wasn't asked, bog standard Tayside council application form with the usual bit about not discriminating against anybody on grounds of sexual orentation, race or disability, no mention of religion anywhere, just the same stuff you had about the example you used in the school ethos statement.
Since it seems to matter to you; At that school there were,that I knew of, two gay members of staff. As you are aware,teachers hide that in ANY school. As for practising Catholics, no idea. There were six staff in my dept and only one didn't come to the pub on Friday. I would say less than 30%.
Now your turn; Why would you apply for a job in a CoE school?
If religious people use a belief in a God to find happiness, so be it.
yes if people believe in something that is not true and then preach it to others, force us to learn it in school, have people to vote in parliament from this religion .and you just dont have a problem with this?
TBH they can believe whatever they want as long as they leave mne alone.
they dont
What is more we had 600 years + of oppression and ignorance from the CHurch and to openly say something counter to church doctrine was punishable by prison and worse until really quite recently.
Now this same group , who are thankfully on the backfoot, go on about tolerance and how theirs is a message of love.
[i]there's the making's of a lynchmob over on the bike forum[/i]
Visions of everyone's heads shooting up, looking around and all running off to the other end of the playground to see what the noise is all about.
I think its more about self discovery... and a belief in god is reassuring... but I'm not reassured by a "sky wizard".
If you'd asked me 18months ago I would have firmly been in the... God? Sky Wizard you mean, camp....No longer.
Yes, community comes into it also.
There were two adults and two very young children outside Surbiton rail station last night, handing out small Eostre eggs and wishing everybody "Happy Easter".
As I approached, I noticed that in the baskets holding the eggs, there also crouched pamphlets emblazoned with the crucifix so the actual agenda became obvious.
As I passed , I remarked "It doesn't exist, it's a superstition".
The older xtian remarked, with a smug tone, "fine".
Stopping and turning, looking pointedly at the accompanying infants, I said "and the indoctrination of children into religious dogma is a form of child abuse. Not only are you deluded, you're peddling something that is actually evil".
There was no reply....
That's what I was hoping would happen wwaswas, but you cant distract this lot when they're on one. 🙂
Can someone give me a precis of this thread so that I can unleash my mighty wisdom upon thee.
TSY - "TJ argues"
😉
galileo? wait a minute tho, who was it authorized the publication of the dialogue concerning the two chief world systems. oh aye, that would be the pope. and wouldn't galileo's defense of heliocentrism as not anti-scriptural be based on...the augustinian position?
to posit that there's a body called 'the church' that actively suppressed 'free thought' (whatever that may be) is not only disingenuous but rewrites the work and achievements of all those great pre-enlightenment types and reduces them to a binary position that allows no insight into their fascinating world views let alone the influences that shaped them.
[i]but you cant distract this lot when they're on one.[/i]
I think your wife's jumper is largely to blame, tbh.
swiss01 - Member
galileo? wait a minute tho, who was it authorized the publication of the dialogue concerning the two chief world systems. oh aye, that would be the pope. and wouldn't galileo's defense of heliocentrism as not anti-scriptural be based on...the augustinian position?to posit that there's a body called 'the church' that actively suppressed 'free thought' (whatever that may be) is not only disingenuous but rewrites the work and achievements of all those great pre-enlightenment types and reduces them to a binary position that allows no insight into their fascinating world views let alone the influences that shaped them.
I used to write like that when I was going English GCSE 🙂
TSY - "TJ argues"
Ahhh... I thought as much. Blessed are thee who attempt to reason with TJ. For he has a head of stone and the tenacity of the tide. As man struggles to refute TJ's logic he shall find inner peace and fulfillment when the light of futility shines upon him.
swiss01 - I was tempted to go down that line as well as indeed it was the church that encouraged Galileo to write and publish the book. You could also argue that he was silenced more for writing the book in a way that implied if you didn't take his viewpoint you were an idiot. The problem was at around the same time the church came out with the 'Index Librorum Prohibitorum' which probably was a bit restrictive 🙁
Mr Woppit
Nice.
Hope it brought some happiness to your life.
And Lo, the mitch of the barnsleys saw the wangers, and the wangers were good...
As man struggles to refute TJ's logic he shall find inner peace and fulfillment when the light of futility shines upon him
or the banhammer - whichever comes first
[i]Can someone give me a precis of this thread so that I can unleash my mighty wisdom upon thee.[/i]
Is there a sufficiently small measure of time for that ?.
Somehow, nano second seems longer than a life time, all of a sudden.
😉
Heres my molecule of religious wisdom for you lot to either ignore or flame me into the arms of hades.
Religion, for me, carries one message.
" Just be nice to one another ".
If only, eh ?.
+1 for clubber. sadly, i do actually speak like this....
[i]when the light of futility shines upon him.[/i]
Is that before or after you've completed your 15th set of kettle bell, wall climb, back stroke ?.
for writing the book in a way that implied if you didn't take his viewpoint you were an idiot
TJ is Galileo and I claim my £5 😉
It's a strange world when the rationalist seems less reasonable than the pro-god crowd 😀
[i]the rationalist seems less reasonable than the pro-god crowd[/i]
People often judge the messenger and not the message.
Absolutely but it's an interesting contrast here.
The 11th commandment Solo - though shalt not do backstroke.
For backstroke is the work of the devil, though should be free(style) like the dove of peace, or (front)crawl to your lord and master, or Breast-stroke like the Mitch of the Barnsley. For these are the paths of the righteous and the beloved.
Cheers Leffe I was not previously aware of thhat bit of meddling
Well yes they would wouldn't theyWhile governments and church encouraged printing in many ways, which allowed the dissemination of Bibles and government information,
ooooh they wouldn't like thatworks of dissent and criticism could also circulate rapidly.
Ah I see, well yeah perfectly valid bit of censorship that.As a consequence, governments established controls over printers across Europe
🙂
and to be fair it was only the one rationalistPeople often judge the messenger and not the message.