[Closed] We Christians

Interesting how so many on here are having a go at Cameron, yet there is a profound silence regarding his vile, sanctimonious, hypocritical, money-grabbing predecessor and his equally vile wife. Who happily took us into two unwinnable conflicts, and pontificated at length about his faith.
Come on, show some consistency, and let's see equal amounts of vitriol directed at Bush's ass-licking poodle Blair.

Nah, that's old history.

Cameron is fresh meat.

Come on, show some consistency, and let's see equal amounts of vitriol directed at Bush's ass-licking poodle Blair.

Let's see equal amounts of vitriol directed at Blair ?

Why - has he made a speech worth commenting on today ?

Or is it because you're an embarrassed Tory ?

How many other 2000+ year old manuals would you refer to for guidance?

How old's the Kama Sutra?

IHN - Member

The New Testament tells us so much about the character of Jesus; a man of incomparable compassion, generosity, grace, humility and love. These are the values that Jesus embraced, and I believe these are values people of any faith, or no faith, can also share in, and admire.

"It is values like these that make our country what it is – a place which is tolerant, generous and caring. A nation which has an established faith, that together is most content when we are defined by what we are for, rather than defined by what we are against. In the book of Luke, we are told that Jesus said, 'Do to others as you would have them do to you' – advice that when followed makes for a happier, and better society for everyone."

I'm not sure why anyone would take offence at someone expressing those kind of thoughts.

Those aren't christian values; they're just a selection of values that christianity incorporates.

Cameron isn't saying, "Look, christianity has some nice values, we should follow these specific values"- he's specifically saying "We need christian values". And that's not the same at all.

Aristotle - Member

How many other 2000+ year old manuals would you refer to for guidance?

Haynes Manual: Suzuki Bandit 600.

so we need christian values but we should not follow christian values ...pretty sure yu have cleared that up for us.

that is some hair you are splitting there and i wish you luck

Aristotle - Member
How many other 2000+ year old manuals would you refer to for guidance?

some of yours are still used though I accept not everyone follows logical arguments but there are some masters of rhetoric on here 😉

Christian values, [i]for the most part[/i], are perfect for a society that wishes to extol kindness.

Whether it's a hypocritical statement from a Tory PM is another matter.

so only for the most part and yet they are still perfect 😕

I've yet to meet a Christian who describes themselves as "perfect".

Not religious myself but can't knock a philosophy that, broadly speaking, embraces kindness.

Junkyard - Member

so we need christian values but we should not follow christian values

Was that at me? It seems like it could be, but I've said no such thing so I'm not sure.

Not religious myself but can't knock a philosophy that, broadly speaking, embraces kindness.

I dont find it very hard to knock it

it claims to be tolerant but only if you follow gods will or they are not at all tolerant or as you describe.

See Islamic preachers of hate[ trademark of the right wing preachers of fear], Israel for other examples of Abrahamic religions and there God given tolerance and kindness

it was aimed at you Northwind but it is ride o clock so I will check back later

Not taking sides, but I always find it interesting that on these threads the vast amount of the intolerance and hatred comes from those on the aethiest side of the debate.

Hi i am gay and dont believe in god can you show me your kindness and Gods love?

Of course, if you accept gods word, you can be cured of your gayness!

In fact the catholic church has a special team of priests stripped down and oiled up, all ready to wrestle the gayness out of you.

Irate Atheists are the biggest hypocrites in my opinion. Intolerance personified.

Why get so worked up and full of hate over other people's perceived stupidity?
Always comes across as a superiority trip to me.

Not taking sides, but I always find it interesting that on these threads the vast amount of the intolerance and hatred comes from those on the aethiest side of the debate.

Irate Atheists are the biggest hypocrites in my opinion. Intolerance personified.

Why get so worked up and full of hate over other people's perceived stupidity?
Always comes across as a superiority trip to me.

Large sections of Christianity believe homosexuality is evil and should be persecuted, the clear message from the church as an establishment is to resist legal equality for homosexuality.
Large sections of the church legally discriminate against women in a manner that is not just abhorrent to most of society but illegal in any context other than when protected under the guise of religious freedom.

Can you show me the "atheist" equivalent of this hatred.

I am not for one moment defending homophobia, misogyny or any other discrimination.
I am merely stating that FOR THE MOST PART the philosophy of Christianity is based on kindness.

Grind your axes elsewhere.

The Church hates gay people like me and wants everyone to get AIDS. Also they wear dresses and think a wizard lives in the sky. **** the Church.

Edit: and **** anyone who supports them too. In the arse.

Well its philosophy claims to be based on kindness, but the reality appears to be somewhat different for anyone casting a sceptical eye over the actions of the church, its history and its current political campaigns.

Same old clap trap gets trotted out about Christians hating gays.

Is that the best you can do?

There is nothing as ignorant as an atheist trying to spout his own twisted agenda.

Same old clap trap gets trotted out about Christians hating gays.

Is that the best you can do?

There is nothing as ignorant as an atheist trying to spout his own twisted agenda.

To be fair, they also put down women as well as the gays.

Its true tho. The prejudice and hatred in the name of religion is all too obvious. Not some or occasional but as a constant theme running thru all the abrahamic religions

The swine...

Same old clap trap gets trotted out about Christians hating gays.

Is that the best you can do?

There is nothing as ignorant as an atheist trying to spout his own twisted agenda.

So speaking out against organised discrimination is "ignorance" and a "twisted agenda".

Go on tell me more, I think you are winning everyone over with your message of love and harmony.

Applying your logic Junkyard that 'religious values' represent poor moral judgement, whilst presumably atheism [i]better[/i] moral judgement, can we assume that our prisons hold a disproportionately large amount of people for whom religion is an important part of their daily lives ?

And that those who shun religion are much less likely to end up in prison ?

It is quite an important consideration because if religion is deemed to make people "bad" to the extent which you appear to be suggesting, then perhaps a serious effort should be made to encourage UK prisoners, for whom religious values are important, to turn away from their God and embrace atheism.

Harden criminals could then declare [i]"I lived a life of crime until the day I discovered that there was no God"[/i]. Upon which they could set forth, having turned a new leaf, to live a happy and constructive crime-free life.

Whaddya reckon geezer.....good idea or not ?

@stevewhyte you're saying the Church is tolerant of gay people and welcomes them into the congregation?

The old testament is clearly homophobic:

Levetique 20 13

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death"

Whilst in the new tesatament homosexuals are included in those that don't respect the law:

Timothée 1 9-10

"realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers"

FeeFoo - Member

I am merely stating that FOR THE MOST PART the philosophy of Christianity is based on kindness.

See, I agree with that. But that's the problem with religion, you don't get to pick and choose, "christian values" means the whole package.

Course, a lot of people do pick and choose- personal hypocrisy being better than living your life by a set of rules you can't abide, but easier than changing your faith...

you're saying the Church is tolerant of gay people and welcomes them into the congregation?

The sensible ones do....

The one my parents go to preach faith in God, but they don't promote organised religion. A very tolerant and easy going bunch.

Tell them you're gay and see how you get on? Just as an experiment, like.

FeeFoo - Member

I am not for one moment defending homophobia, misogyny or any other discrimination.
I am merely stating that FOR THE MOST PART the philosophy of Christianity is based on kindness.

Grind your axes elsewhere.

Really? An eye for an eye? Or turn the other cheek?

Christianity is intolerant, it is full of prejudice and hatred and as a basic tenet tells believers they are superior to non believers.

The sensible ones do....

Genuine question. Can you name me a Christian church that supports homosexuality? I've never come across one and would like to revise my views if that's the case.

Edukator - Member

The old testament is clearly homophobic:

Really so its also murderphobic and animalshagaphobic etc etc.

The Bible, therefore Christians, dont agree with homosexuality but you kind of miss the point, all have fallen short regardless, from Elton John to Mother Teresa

Genuine question. Can you name me a Christian church that supports homosexuality? I've never come across one and would like to revise my views if that's the case.

Didn't know of any Churches (as a group, rather than individual congregations) but wikipedia provides this helpful summary:

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality#United_Church_of_Christ ]Wikipedia[/url]

Cougar how can a Christian believer support Homosexuality, you talk from such an ignorant position. Its the Sin not the sinner thats the issue!!

Genuine question. Can you name me a Christian church that supports homosexuality? I've never come across one and would like to revise my views if that's the case.

There are churches that are supportive of homosexuality, there are also groups with the larger organised churches who support homosexuality, they are unfortunately a small voice in a big crowd.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/07/20/jimmy-carter-leaves-church-over-treatment-of-women/

Steve, both the new and old testament are hypocritical in that killing is both condemned and encouraged. See my two previous contributions to this thread. Both Moses and Jesus say one must not kill then Moses goes on to order the killing of homosexuals amongst others and Jesus orders cutting the throats (slaughter in the English translation) of his enemies.

Cougar how can a Christian believer support Homosexuality, you talk from such an ignorant position.

That was exactly my question, yes. You were saying it was 'claptrap' a minute ago, and Whatnobeer suggested that the 'sensible' churches weren't homophobic.

I'm far from in an ignorant position, but I wasn't aware that the policies had changed as you both seem to suggest. Or at least, he suggests, I'm not wholly clear on what you're saying because you seem to be making contradictory posts. Perhaps you could clarify?

Its the Sin not the sinner thats the issue!!

So, what are you saying here, a gay person is ok so long as they can be cured?

Stevewhyte, I don't think it's a sin, ok with you? 🙂

Stevewhyte, I don't think it's a sin, ok with you?

I'd like to know the answer to that too. Are you homophobic, Steve?

Wait, I think I get it.

Its the Sin not the sinner thats the issue!!

It's not the religious that's the issue, it's religion.

Someone sum up the term "Christian values" as it is [b]commonly[/b] used.

Don't try to be clever, just sum up what most people would describe as Christian values.

Go on, do it with no negativity, I dare ya!

I don't consider homosexuality a sin, however, I fail to see how a Christian can consider homosexuality anything but a sin. If you cherry pick the Bible for the bits you like you're not a Christian IMO. Same for Muslims. True Muslims should go around murdering people they can't convert to Islam or they are not true Muslims.

Why we tolerate two books that demand followers to murder enemies of their religion I have no idea. Ban the Bible, ban the Koran!

Quoting Luke eh. I can do that too:

Luke 19 27

"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me."

But also “the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly” - they are his words of wisdom.

I always a mistake to read the bible without attempting to understand it in context. For anti-Christians, it often seems to be a deliberate mistake.

[enemy slaughtered] 😀

Since we have the combination of a Christian State and a tolerant (for the most part) and secular society, I see no harm in a Prime Minister making such a statement.

Like his predecessors, though, I would then expect him to live up to those ideals that he obviously supports but appreciate that like the rest of us, he will more likely fail.

Consumerism is just as much a religion as god stuff. The only difference is that some company is convincing you that you have to buy the latest bike for example to make your life worth while. Leading to total devastation of the planet. Consumerism touches the same buttons as religion (Saints, visions of perfections that we can aspire to, or super models or sports stars that we can aspire to and become if only we buy some rubbish product)

I am sure it is the same physiological brain circuits are at work. Just face it humans are pretty illogical and stupid in this respect. Either if you do things through believing in gods or goods.

I understand it in context, Buzz. A bunch of rebels about to enter a town with the leader on a stolen donkey who has ordered the stoning of anyone who tries to stop him. He enters the town and successfully occupies the temple.

Edit: cutting throats is usually fatal.

Someone sum up the term "Christian values" as it is commonly used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_values

The term Christian values historically refers to the values derived from the teachings of Jesus and taught by Christians throughout the history of the religion. The term has various applications and meanings, and specific definitions can vary widely between denominations, geographical locations, and different schools of thought.

So for a start, there's no such thing as [b]common [/b]usage. But let's roll with that for now.

The biblical teachings of Jesus include:[1]

love of God: "You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" (an excerpt from the Shema ,-Matthew 22:37
fidelity in marriage: "Whom God has joined together let no man put asunder"
renunciation of worldly goods: "Gather not your riches up upon this earth, for there your heart will be also",
renunciation of violence: "If a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other cheek",
forgiveness of sins: "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us",
unconditional love: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".

So, Christian value #1 is 'be a Christian', unsurprisingly.

#2, Fidelity in marriage. That's pretty good. So long as it's between a man and a woman, anyway.

#3, "gather not riches" - that's Cameron being a hypocrite straight out of the gate, then.

#4, don't be violent. Sage advice.

#5, forgiveness of sins, yeah, forgiveness is good.

#6, love your enemies. I don't really understand how this can work in practice, but as a value I guess it's not wholly dissimilar to #5.

So that's it. Be a Christian, don't cheat on your partner, don't be a Tory, don't be a thug, don't persecute those who aren't Christians.

I'll leave the other half of the entry, "Contemporary use in American politics", as an exercise for the reader, as you asked me not to be negative. It's interesting reading though, and might explain why us "hate-filled" atheists get a bit vexed sometimes.

Consumerism is just as much a religion as god stuff.

[img] [/img]

Nail em up
Nail some sense into em

Not really wanting to get involved in yet another pointless debate about religion, but I'm always surprised that religion in general hasn't managed to come to terms with homosexuality, when homosexuality is far older than any religion.

It's another pointer to the idea that religion (in general) is a form of tribal/social control and that the lack of offspring from homosexual relationships represents a perceived problem for the tribe.

Anyway, as you were...

Greeks and Romans did not seem to have much issue with homosexuality and they had plenty of gods.

Fortunatly cougar all the love filled Christians do their best to couter act your Hate.

You have summed up your position nicely

and might explain why us "hate-filled" atheists get a bit vexed sometimes.

But dont worry regardless of what you do or who your are God loves you.

The Cargo cult seems to be more about they have no clue how the stuff is created so had to make up some "Religious" aspect to it. What I mean is that people are attracted to religion as it promises to make their lives better. Just the same as consumerism when in fact this is a totally illogical fact. How is a flat screen TV or 1 more inch of travel really going to make your life any better?

The problem with homosexuality is there's no children, so you don't get free ready-made believers. Same as the 'every sperm is sacred' trope; the churches know that it's a lot easier to have kids brought up as believers rather than try to convert them after they've grown up and started thinking for themselves. And if you're not reproducing, you're not making little believers of tomorrow.

At least with Christianity though, their policy is variably to tolerate or convert other faiths rather than put them to death. So it could be worse.

It strikes me that the bible has become an emabarrassment to the Christian church(es) and the Koran has become an embarrassment to moderate Islam.

Styevewhyte - that is the offensiveness of godism in a few words.

God is imaginary. I find you telling me

But dont worry regardless of what you do or who your are God loves you.

as you asked me not to be negative. It's interesting reading though, and might explain why us "hate-filled" atheists get a bit vexed sometimes.

Nope. Couldn't do it without (hilarious) cynicism.

there's no such thing as common usage

Deliberately being obtuse. Tedious.

I'll make it clearer. What would people say if you asked them to verbally state what Christian values were?

You have summed up your position nicely

You saw the quote marks, yes? You read the other half of that link I gave you?

I'm not hate-filled, I'm simply very strongly opposed to a set of 'values' which promote intelligent design, repress sexuality, enforce prayer and criminalise homosexuality.

Nope. Couldn't do it without (hilarious) cynicism.

No one asked me not to be cynical.

Deliberately being obtuse. Tedious.

Well, no, if I was deliberately being obtuse then I wouldn't have followed it with the second sentence which you conveniently failed to quote. I was [i]specifically [/i]saying that the question didn't have a simple answer, by definition, but was going to try anyway.

Cougar. You should become a Quaker then or other more tolerant forms of Christianity. CofE and the Catholic church have no problem with evolution as far as I can remember. Gene Robinson anyone? As with all human thought tit is a broad church.

Show me an example of this aethiest hatred

Here you go then, from this very thread.

Personally I though they were just a knee jerk bunch of **** wits hell bent on imposing a 4000 year old moral code on us all whilst worshiping the invisible sky fairy who wants the spread of AIDS and a huge infant mortality rate interspersed with the odd holywar/crusade

Would you honestly be able to say you weren't being negative in your listing?

And, are you are telling me that if I asked 100 people what they would describe as Christian values, the majority would say they hadn't a clue; that it was too complex a question?

Christian values: the teachings of Jesus which include the teachings of Moses in Leveticus Jesus supports.

Given the number of those rules I've already broken and that I have no intention of repenting (some of those sins count among the best moments of my life) then I'm definitly going to hell according to the Bible. In fact my brain will stop working and I'll be incinerated. The end.

The Cargo cult seems to be more about they have no clue how the stuff is created so had to make up some "Religious" aspect to it.

Say what you like about the Cargo Cult but they don't necessarily get everything wrong :

[i]"The Yaohnanen believe that Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, the consort to Queen Elizabeth II, is a divine being; the pale-skinned son of a mountain spirit and brother of John Frum. According to ancient tales, the son travelled over the seas to a distant land, married a powerful lady and would in time return. The villagers had observed the respect accorded to Queen Elizabeth II by colonial officials and concluded that her husband, Prince Philip, must be the son from their legends."[/i]

I can't really argue with that.

Who was John Frum anyway ?

[i]As with all human thought tit is a broad church.[/i]

Aye, everybody likes tits, even them gay fellas!

As an experiment, why doesn't someone on here who is gay go into one of the mainstream Christian churches, say that they are gay and see what sort of welcome they get.

It's my bet that they'll be welcomed with open arms by the vast majority of the folk in the church who couldn't give two hoots about their sexuality.

If that is so they are not very good christians as the bible says

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:13

As an experiment, why doesn't someone on here who is gay go into one of the mainstream Christian churches, say that they are gay and see what sort of welcome they get.

It's my bet that they'll be welcomed with open arms by the vast majority of the folk in the church who couldn't give two hoots about their sexuality.

100% spot-on.

Christianity = Rome in disguise, same philosophy and tyrannical behaviour.

Christianity has nothing to do with jesus or the way, it's just a bunch of evil bastards that use blind faith and a desire by week minded people to believe in something bigger than themselves, it's a way of getting dim witted people to do what they're told.

No wonder Cameron likes the idea of it 😉

Or if you want a bit more biblical hatred

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

So - homosexuals should be put to death and anyone trying to convert you to another religion should be killed. Nice stuff Christians.

As an experiment, why doesn't someone on here who is gay go into one of the mainstream Christian churches, say that they are gay and see what sort of welcome they get.

They would probably be told, quite rightly, that they were wretched sinners.

But on the plus side, that Jesus loves them. Which I guess evens things out a bit.

And is rather nice.

TJ, forgetting your cutting-and-pasting-from-the-Bible skills, would you agree that kennyp's hypothetical welcome is likely to happen?

@stevewhyte so basically you're a homophobe with only the most rudimentary grasp of spelling and grammar who believes in a wizard who lives in the sky.

Edit: You're not a teacher are you?

Hang on, Jesus isn't anything to do with christianity, that's slander innit!

Feefoo - not from good practising christians - they should kill you on the spot. Thats if they obey the injunctions in the bible.

Seriously - in some liberal western churches maybe - not in most of the world.

I think, in the midst of all this hyperbole, it's a s well to remind ourselves that we are generally talking about the Church of England.

You're more likely to get a weak cup of tea and some cake than a stoning, and more likely to get scones than killed.

...as you were, freedom fighters!

"wizard in the sky" ha ha, it's funny cos it's making fun of someone's stupidity, ha ha.

Hateful and tedious.

Did Jesus endorse that Deuteronomy passage, TJ? If not Christians can ingore it unlike your Leveticus quote as Jesus taught the Moses stuff.

No - its the religious that are hateful and tedious along with their foul patronising and prejudicial assumption of (moral) supreriority.