Question for people who use the sea, do you use the surfers against sewage app that tells you when raw sewage has been discharged? If you do, do you pay any attention to it?
I have had it on my phone the last couple of years, but realise it is putting me off surfing when sewage has been discharged at the beach I was thinking of, or any very close by.
I’ve been surfing for over thirty years and only once been really ill (possibly twice). I wonder if you are better off not knowing so am thinking of just deleting the app
They are generally 24-48hrs behind so the likelihood is that you wouldn’t know anyway.
it’s useful for knowing which beaches are problematic and avoiding them after heavy rain.
Safer Seas thing?
Yeah I keep an eye on it. Mostly when out with the kids. But being aware of heavy rainfall locally may be more up to date.
Never heard of it but will download it now.
As a kid I did a bit of dinghy racing. The club I was a member of had a sewage outflow right next to where the start line normally was. Nothing helps you concentrate on not capsizing in the start sequence than round brown fish.
@Owen-P that’s the one.
I actually think it is pretty swift, e.g this morning we had torrential rain and the alert late morning. As it’s been dry for a while I’m assuming it was related to the morning rain.
The other issue is it only (I think) does coastal stuff so you never know about all the crap washing down the rivers
There's a site, not an app which shows where sewage outfalls are on UK rivers. Can't remember what it's called. Might be of use combined with watching the weather.
not real time, a summary of last year, but gives you a good idea of where the issues are. I’ve stopped using a couple of river swim spots as a result of info on there. luckily I live next to Dartmoor so can swim above any significant human input…
The other issue is it only (I think) does coastal stuff so you never know about all the crap washing down the rivers
To be fair, the only river I know of that gets surfers in any numbers is the Severn, and they’re traveling upstream…
Environmental concerns mean that sewer outfalls are becoming ever more tightly controlled, but you’re right that rivers do have things like rats pissing in them, transmitting Wyles Disease, and cows often access rivers to drink, and do the same - doesn’t stop canoeing, kayaking and paddle-boarding on/in them.
Environmental concerns mean that sewer outfalls are becoming ever more tightly controlled,
You are kidding aren't you? Rivers have never been more polluted.
Yep, shit* loads of CSO's discharging into rivers all over the country! I've seen the website mentioned above for river outlets but can't remember what it's called.
*Pun intended...
We use our local water co website for info. It’s pretty well hidden on their site but apparently a legal requirement:
https://www.wessexwater.co.uk/environment/protecting-and-enhancing-the-environment/bathing-waters
There’s another site I can’t find just now which is more comprehensive and lists every outflow in the area, so you can sort of cross ref them.
You are kidding aren’t you? Rivers have never been more polluted.
Patent rubbish, rivers in UK are recovering from the industrial revolution, upto the mid eighties all the sewage in Liverpool went straight into the Mersey. Industrial discharges have reduced dramatically, mine water treatment, farmers did what they wanted. The upper catchment of the Irwell has kingfisher and otter now, the Thames dolphins
Things could and should be a lot better but you are wrong in your assertion
I’ll have a look at it after heavy rain, particularly if surfing the murky waters of S Devon…
Be careful in Scotland, bathing water status is a political issue, some will fail for four years and magically improve for one year then back to failing for four more years. Nothing to do with the bathing water closing with five (iirc) fails
Reminds me of Amity and don't close the beaches
https://www.ayradvertiser.com/news/19373288.ayr-south-beach-risk-losing-status-bathing-water/
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/ayrshire/ayr-bathing-water-no-concern-24440051
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/ayrshire/staycation-setback-south-ayrshire-three-24383775
Not saying E&W any better
The upper catchment of the Irwell has kingfisher and otter now
Yeah but they are bright orange from all the rust coming out of the mines.
I worked at the dye works in Waterfoot a long time ago, used to get the inspector turning up with bright blue water samples, no not us, must have been some farmer somewhere.
Yeah but they are bright orange from all the rust coming out of the mines.
More of a problem on Midgellen Brook, there is minewater treatment upstream and downstream of your house on the Irwell
Tesco seem to be the polluter of choice on the Irwell
Looks like someone has worked out the EA don't like to work Friday evenings
https://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/17695531.pollution-strikes-again----hundreds-dead-fish-found-river-irwell/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39705214
it's nice to surf in clean water but, frankly, water quality has never been a factor in where I decide to surf. Obviously some spots it's best to be tight-lipped...
@big_n_daft - I was going to tell you what *actually* leeches into the mersey rather than what is (self) reported by business, but it's not worth it.
But what is worth it is the fact that you're dead wrong on the sewage situation across britain:
Design issues and, frankly, profit before environment. Raw sewage is *gushing* into our rivers and the sea at not decreasing but increasing rates.
I ditched the environmental management as a job in the 90's out of frustration that I could flog my life achieving nothing because without strong governance and legislation any action would be futile - raging against the tide. However, I'm lifelong friends with a couple of senior people at the EA and they simply don't have the resources to bring prosecutions (or even investigate effectively). They're effectively window-dressing for the government to placate us that things are being properly monitored and looked after - but they're not.
Water companies still, however, pay out dividends to shareholders. In roughly the same amounts that they're underfunding necessary repair work. Funny eh. Especially since when we privatised them we wrote off all the debts beforehand, and the private companies have just piled that debt on.
If we take them back into public ownership because of their frankly criminal actions we'll also pay for the debts. And probably re-privatise under a tory government in 50 years.
We are literally sh11tting all over our country, everywhere.
Forgive my ignorance but why are we pumping sewerage into our natural water sources?
I always assumed any raw sewerage was taken away to a treatment plant and turned into strawberry flavoured water and flowers, or something like that.
Is the dumping of raw sewerage accidental or intentional, and does it just flood out of the network at various points?
Facebook group Hayling sewage watch.
They issue brown alerts when the local sewage farm discharge
Its not unusual to see 300,000 to 400,000 litrs of untreated shit pumped directly into a harbour
This is tidal but obvs not all of it leaves on the ebb tide so the impact on the local beaches is greatly diluted over time and volume
They do it every time there is prolonged or heavy rain
Thing is it would be really cheap to build a tidal pool holding area where the overspill could be stored for treatment at a later date. When i say cheap, this is relative to the millions of pounds southern water has been hit with in the last 3 years
Is the dumping of raw sewerage accidental or intentional, and does it just flood out of the network at various points?
yes.
@Butcher Basically because most of the sewers in towns are Victorian or similar vintage, they take surface and foul water. When it rains heavily the sewage works can't cope With the volume so "combined sewer overflows" discharge untreated sewage into the rivers. The idea at the time was that the sewage would be diluted by the rainwater so it's all good. It's not though as more and more infrastructure has been plumbed in to these old sewers so it's happening more often and liquor is more "flavoursome". New sewer systems are meant to be segregated into surface and foul, but a lot these then connect into combined sewers further down the network.
The water companies are meant to be investing in segregated sewer systems but it just isn't happening remotely fast enough.
Of course its intentional.
Any company that wants to make money will be treading a path as close to and sometimes crossing the line that any regulation (tax, environment, safety) draws on its industry.
The sole purpose of any capitalist endeavour is to make money for its shareholders.
The water companies have no interest in the health of our water ways beyond getting away with not being fined, or keeping the fines manageable relative to the expense of avoiding them.
If you want to protect the environment then having a profit making enterprise manage them is fundamentally flawed.
But what is worth it is the fact that you’re dead wrong on the sewage situation across britain:
Err, are you saying I'm wrong in the assertion that all the sewage in Liverpool went into the Mersey prior to the mid eighties?
Are you saying I'm wrong in the assertion that since the industrial revolution our rivers are cleaner than they were then?
However, I’m lifelong friends with a couple of senior people at the EA and they simply don’t have the resources to bring prosecutions (or even investigate effectively).
It's more a failed organisational culture, EA staff/ management tend not to be "resilient" and impersonate Nelson far too often. They can and do prosecute but it tends to be the exception or when there is going to be a guilty plea.
The EA are complicit in what water companies do as are OFWAT, I'm sure lots of kit gets turned off on Friday afternoon and back on Monday morning. Why, because that's when formal samples won't be taken etc etc
CSO issues vary by company, Blackpool has a very posh new one as does the Irwell at Stacksteads, Eccles etc all ones I've driven past the construction of.
As for state and private performance, well we don't know, NI publishes no data and SEPA has been hacked and WICS doesn't like publishing numbers that are going the wrong way. Welsh is a hybrid so how they are doing might be more informative
Finally don't forget the farmers, I walked along a river at the weekend that would be a SAC which had muck spread fields to the edge and cattle stood in it. All the gravels choked by silt and algae along that section.
The water companies have no interest in the health of our water ways beyond getting away with not being fined, or keeping the fines manageable relative to the expense of avoiding them.
Except when they abstract downstream of the discharge the Thames being a classic example and I believe there is a DWI report on an incident in North London where an abstraction was downstream of a discharge and there was a drinking water contamination incident
The sole purpose of any capitalist endeavour is to make money for its shareholders.
A bit harsh on Chipps and co
Is the dumping of raw sewerage accidental or intentional, and does it just flood out of the network at various points?
There are points of discharge to release pressure on the network otherwise it will be roads and houses getting flooded as the system backs up. They are supposed to be for exceptional weather, unfortunately that has increased at the same time as the enforcement has dropped, add in population increase and chronic under investment then you end up where we are.
The investment in new sewers/ rehab is so low the average age of the network goes up each year.
Don't think it's cheap to build the solution, sewers are v expensive, as are retention tanks etc
The picture will be different for each area as a lot depends on the EA/NRW/SEPA local enforcement and national policy as well as the attitude of the undertaker
@singletrackmind - funnily enough it was at East Wittering that I did pick something up nasty which took a couple of months of intermittent vomiting to clear, that was mid-late nineties and given the recent news about southern water probably not surprising!
I hadn't seen the app, interesting.
I'm in a very similar situation but for Kayaking. My local river, the Almond, near Livingston, iss pretty decent after a bit of heavy rain. I've paddled it loads especially in the last 18 months, never been ill. However at least 3 sewage treatment works discharge into it and a local pressure group is quite rightly kicking up a fuss after every rain event and publishing pictures of all the wipes, pad, condoms etc.... It has really taken the incentive to go for a paddle away!
Interestingly though the Forth Rivers Trust is pushing for a bathing water status (which if you knew the river is pretty rank) for a country park along the river but its the only way to force the water company (Veolia) and Scottish Water themselves to improve their efforts. As part of this there was an event at the weekend where loads of folk went swimming and paddling in the river, which at the current baseflows is about 90% treated sewage....
Likewise, the lower tavy, less than a km from my house is a cracking g2/3 run in high water but too many people have got very ill from paddling it.
there was a recent Twitter thing recently where the CEO of surfers against sewage reported a swimming into a slick of sewage off perranporth, multiple other reports and the response was SWW was just to deny it happened.
Are you saying I’m wrong in the assertion that since the industrial revolution our rivers are cleaner than they were then?
There is definitely a lot of nasty pollutants no longer in our rivers that were there during the industrial revolution. The issue today isn't as much heavy metals from industry (although some mines still contribute plenty) but more sewage overflowing from a sewage network that hasn't been upgraded to keep up with population growth.
Another way of thinking about it might be "do we pay enough for wastewater services". If you look at your bill it ain't a lot and it is, after all, our shit.
Except for me, I pay nowt, cos we're off the network.
sewage network that hasn’t been upgraded to keep up with population growth.
This is it, and also we are/will be seeing more and more short sharp weather events (both drought and floods) due to climate change.
Another way of thinking about it might be “do we pay enough for wastewater services”.
Or maybe "does enough of what I pay go towards upgrading and maintaining the system I am paying for?"
Since it was all privatised I think the answer is no.
Is thestabiliser on the board of southern water?
Ha! No. We massively under value waste and wastewater services. We'll happily spend 5k on ebike or £30k on an Audi.*
But then boak at having to fund not rolling around in our own shit and filth. Wrong priorities innit.
* I wouldn't, far too tight
are you aware that southern water were just convicted and fined £90 million pounds for a massive cover up of chronic under investment and falsified reporting? all while reporting massive profits and dividend payouts to shareholders.
I'm not sure the amount we pay for services is the problem...
If the water companies invested all their current customer revenue in replacing combined sewers it wouldnt touch the sides. 800 yrs at current rate of replacement. Don't know about the southern water case other than what's on ends fines monitor but the issue is structural and national and requires massive diversion of surface water which the water co's can't do unilaterally.
in the case of Southern Water, it wasnt structural.
they actively chose to discharge and divert raw sewage as it was cheaper than treating it. profit came first.
are you aware that southern water were just convicted and fined £90 million pounds for a massive cover up of chronic under investment and falsified reporting? all while reporting massive profits and dividend payouts to shareholders.
I’m not sure the amount we pay for services is the problem…
It was reported on BBC news at 6 as something like the last but one report before the weather, with a briefer description than you've just given. It says a lot about our society that it wasn't given any prominence.
Paddling the Trent raw sewage is pretty much the norm, been ill a few times, not used the app but thinking I should start.
Another way of thinking about it might be “do we pay enough for wastewater services”. If you look at your bill it ain’t a lot and it is, after all, our shit.
Except for me, I pay nowt, cos we’re off the network.
Freeloader,
one of the industry's issues is the way services are billed for. Nobody wants to change the status quo because the losers moan and the winners keep quiet.
I watched this a couple of weeks ago, they discuss why our rivers are dying, why the EA are struggling and which treatment works are the worst (frightening figures given!)