[Closed] Washing waterproofs

I tend to avoid washing them as much as possible.

I was mine with liquid soap from the DIY shop when they need it. Much cheaper than the nicwax/grangers stuff and does a good enough job. Reproof at the end of night riding season.
My washing machine has waterproof clothing setting😀
This stuff

Specialist detergent like nikwax?

Or pure soap flakes if you can find them (edit: or that stuff above). Normal detergents and softeners have a bunch of additives that'll stop the water repellent treatments applied to the fabrics from working, material gets soaked instead of beading. Just follow the instructions on the cleaner / website.

Edit: this is mostly about right. the Nikwax FAQ is a bit hopeless

https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/the-knowledge/waterproof-care-guide.html

Riding waterproofs I just tend to leave muddy and only wash them when they are starting to smell.
The one I wear to work that I spilt curry sauce on, will get washed with nikwax

With my Gortex hill walking clobber I tumble dry after the wash.

Normal detergents and softeners have a bunch of additives that’ll stop the water repellent treatments applied to the fabrics from working

So, let's say an over enthusiastic MIL had washed your expensive jacket with persil and comfort, how would you recover the waterproofness?

A couple of washes in a clean machine with soap flakes, then wash in reproofer then tumble dry.

The Persil shouldn't cause a problem. However the cationics in the softener are rather substantive and not very water soluble. Three or four washes with soap flakes and it should be ok.

Liquid soap from Wilko's.

So, let’s say an over enthusiastic MIL had washed your expensive jacket with persil and comfort, how would you recover the waterproofness?

Divorce

NSMB Published something on this recently

https://nsmb.com/articles/2-minute-expert-how-gore-tex-works/

https://7mesh.com/gore-tex-product-care

Quick hose down with the bikes. Rinse and spin cycle (most machines do this), with no detergent, works for me.

I wash mine with one of the specialist soaps and then a reproofer - and a minimum spin / no spin

I wouldn't go looking down the high street for soap flakes. The ancient machine that used the make them was apparently worn out and combined with the non-green usage of palm oil in the recipe, they stopped production and now sell liquid soap, the brand name is dripak.

Check the labels, a lot of waterproofs actually benefit from a warm (not hot) tumble dry.

P.S Fabric softener has no place in your house, its completely pointless.

All these kind of jackets are flawed - they stop working effectively as explained in that article.

What they don't really tell you - is you can never return it to the same level as effectiveness as when it's new. I've tried all those things and they never bead very well again. (3-4 washes and it's not great) Lumping all the responsibility on to the consumer. We also generate too much heat too for the breathing to ever work well.

My life has been changed by the Goretex Shakedry stuff - which actually works how you expect it too.

Shame the cut is a bit weird. Super long arms and slightly tight under the armpits. I hiked in mine yesterday in full on rain - no sweat or rain - even against the skin with a cotton t-shirt on. Amazing.

Check the labels, a lot of waterproofs actually benefit from a warm (not hot) tumble dry.

Good advice as some melt at the seems! Odd how some jackets can be tumbled and others not.

Shakedry or just a non-waterproof job.

DWR outer fabric is the great con of the 2000s.

So here's a question. If I wash at 30c with some sort of specialist re-proofer, that re-proofer is going to go everywhere. By that I mean on the inside of the jacket as well as the outside. Will waterproofing the inside stop any breathable properties from working?

DWR outer fabric is the great con of the 2000s.

I'd tend to agree. Great when new, but very quickly detereiorates into being a bit rubbish and will never come back to 100%.
I'd be interested to try the shakedry stuff in time.

Check the labels, a lot of waterproofs actually benefit from a warm (not hot) tumble dry.

You want to be careful with tumble drying for at least two reasons: one is that if the thermostat in your tumbler goes bad, you may find you're tumbling at a much higher temperature than you think and you can't really tell because the jacket is out of sight. In a worst case scenario, you can melt plastic trim etc. The other is that tumbler drying is abrasive, that fluff that comes out of the filter is your clothes' fabric being degraded.

Quite a few modern jackets use lamination and heat welding in their construction, overheating them is not a good idea for obvious reasons.

Most aftermarket DWR treatments are designed to work without heat activation despite what the Gore guy in that article linked above says btw.

Gore ShakeDry is brilliant as it doesn't need a DWR, but it's mostly not specced to work with packs and is mad expensive and easy to damage in a crash - the membrane is essentially on the outside. It's also mostly black.

So here’s a question. If I wash at 30c with some sort of specialist re-proofer, that re-proofer is going to go everywhere. By that I mean on the inside of the jacket as well as the outside. Will waterproofing the inside stop any breathable properties from working?

Not in my experience because you're dealing with vapour transmission not water. The exception is with 2-layer fabrics, which are the ones with a separate drop liner - three layer fabrics, confusingly are a single layer of fabric, but it's a sandwich of three components - you don't want DWR on the lining fabric, so use a spray-on reproofer for that sort of jacket and just treat the outside surface.

Gore ShakeDry is brilliant as it doesn’t need a DWR, but it’s mostly not specced to work with packs and is mad expensive and easy to damage in a crash – the membrane is essentially on the outside. It’s also mostly black.

Shakedry as has been on *offer* for around £150 over xmas. GF got one. I got a dark blue one and the insulated one. The insulated one can only really be worn around zero degrees with just a jersey. But is amazing.

Whether you would pay £270+ for it ... It will come down I reckon.

I have a fantastic DHB waterproof jacket. Really nice cut on the bike and supremely waterproof, pit zips etc.

Was very kindly washed for me when it was disgusting, it killed it. I've washed it in soap, tech wash and then TX direct more than once, never been satisfactory. Used for wet commutes now (hour each way, will cope with that OK)

On the bike i went to Columbia Outdry, not worried about mud in that. Not bad for hillwalking either but not stiff enough to be a good winter hillwalking jacket. Will get a shakedry when they become more robust (lots of companies offer a jacket in that material)

As above, never wash them.

Rinse muck off with just water, ideally before the mud dries on. Don't forget the inside too as sweat and oil from skin will trash it from the inside.

Fine particles will get in the fabric and destroy it eventually. But if you wash it will degrade much faster.

If you give in and wash it, hand wash in pure soap and sometimes tumble dry will bring the DWR back.

I've never had a jacket thats survived more than a couple of wash cycles.

I’ve never had a jacket thats survived more than a couple of wash cycles.

What happens to them?

What happens to them?

Either no longer waterproof (membrane dies), or the water no longer beads off meaning the jacket outer fabric wets out and the jacket is no longer breathable (DWR killed).

So, let’s say an over enthusiastic MIL had washed your expensive jacket with persil and comfort, how would you recover the waterproofness?

Does sir now have a new patio?

Either no longer waterproof (membrane dies), or the water no longer beads off meaning the jacket outer fabric wets out and the jacket is no longer breathable (DWR killed).

Yeah, that's my experience too.

Anyone have any experience of 'professional' reproofing, like:

https://lancashiresportsrepairs.co.uk/reproofing/

As a counter to the "don't wash" comments above (which go against the recommendations of most clothing companies), I wash my waterproofs often.

I use Grangers Performance Wash followed up with Performance Repel Plus spray on (applied to a damp jacket). It doesn't need heat to activate.

I've never had any issues and all my waterproofs bead off properly (GTX/GTX Pro & Event).

My process, minus the tumble dryer as Grangers no longer needs heat.

Either no longer waterproof (membrane dies), or the water no longer beads off meaning the jacket outer fabric wets out and the jacket is no longer breathable (DWR killed).

What are you washing them in - it sounds brutal. I've never had any of these issues with regular washing in recommended cleaners/pure soap and reproofing, though I've had lightweight waterproof fabrics basically wear out with extended use.

If Gore-Tex in particular stops working because the membrane's died, you can return it under warranty. It has a lifetime 'guaranteed to keep you dry' thing. It's one of the reasons the stuff's so expensive in the first place.

I avoid washing them at all costs, but I also avoid wearing waterproofs unless I have to

The only waterproofs that seem to like or need a wash is paramo

The folks that say they are able to mirror how they were from the factory are in the vast minority. In practice you're just giving them more life. MTB and waterproofs aren't a match made in heaven. I have some waterproofs I keep for walking or commuting that don't see any muddy action

Another vote for Columbia Outdry. It looks a bit cheap on account of its glossy surface but seems to be working well.

On the whole, I tend to wait until waterproofs are dry and then brush off most of the dirt, washing as infrequently as possible.

I've had more success reproofing (restoring DWR really) doing it by hand in a sink. Just remember to wear latex gloves 😉

The instructions for Event are to keep it as clean as possible, washing frequently.

Very rarely washed.

On the heat treatment I put mine on the radiator turning them so all parts spend some time in direct contact. Seems to work.

As above tho - they only get washed very occasionally

all the fabrics have different instructions ....so follow the instructions for your product not someone else's product

I've yet to find a fabric I can smash into gravel and rocks without tearing so I can't see the point spending much on a waterproof for riding. Previously I've worn my goretex walking jacket but ended up taking it off before I crash and ruin something I can't afford to replace. Sods law you crash wearing the expensive jacket.

My current options are a reduced to £25 or so one seems great and keeps me mostly dry... and one for a tenner from sports direct which just gets kept in the boot for unexpected use.

Never machine washed - if really bad, they get a hosing or a showering, otherwise let it dry completely and give them a shake and a gentle brush off.

Avoid black (I learnt this too late), just like cars, they always look filthy with even the tiniest amount of dirt on them. Earth tones and greys seem to be the best.

Is this Outdry Extreme stuff the equivalent of ShakeDry?

(I don't understand this not washing - how is it meant to work with a load of crap on the outside - you are blocking its ability to breath and function.)

Anyone have any experience of ‘professional’ reproofing, like:

Reproofing, no. However I have used LSR before, for a tent repair, and they were brilliant. It helped that they're round the corner from where I used to work in Burnley and I could pop in during my lunch break.

all the fabrics have different instructions ….so follow the instructions for your product not someone else’s product

This. There is, somewhere, a web page with a big long list of different fabric types and care instructions for each. I can't remember exactly where now as it was ages ago when I found it so I appreciate that's not directly helpful, but it might be worth a google.

outdry is the equivalent of shake dry in that you don't need to replenish the DWR, so it's there for life so to speak

In practice it's not as breathable but it's more robust (I wear mine with a pack no problem). pit zips helps a lot

Reproofing, no. However I have used LSR before, for a tent repair, and they were brilliant. It helped that they’re round the corner from where I used to work in Burnley and I could pop in during my lunch break.

Do they also do resoleing of shoes ? Seem to remember finding a company off Accy road did resoles and maybe the same one?

Anyone have any experience of ‘professional’ reproofing, like:

I sent a GTX jacket to LSR for "professional" retaping. Came back looking like a blind 6 year old had done it. It then all fell off the first time I used it. I wish I'd taken some photos, it was quite possibly one of the worst 'professional' jobs I'd personally experienced...

Hey BadlyWiredDog

:they wrote: So here’s a question. If I wash at 30c with some sort of specialist re-proofer, that re-proofer is going to go everywhere. By that I mean on the inside of the jacket as well as the outside. Will waterproofing the inside stop any breathable properties from working?

:you replied:
Not in my experience because you’re dealing with vapour transmission not water. The exception is with 2-layer fabrics, which are the ones with a separate drop liner – three layer fabrics, confusingly are a single layer of fabric, but it’s a sandwich of three components – you don’t want DWR on the lining fabric, so use a spray-on reproofer for that sort of jacket and just treat the outside surface.

Just so I have this right, you're meaning that the 2 layer (with drop lining) should not be treated with a wash - in waterproofer? bit confused by the - 3 layer fabrics bit within the hyphens -
3 layer is ok with the wash in stuff
is that right?

Those membrane fabrics are so bloody expensive they definitely don't need ruining.

thanks
neil

I wonder if Dr Bronners liquid Castile soap is as good (and safe) as Nikwax Techwash? Bronners has to be as good as "soapflakes"or liquid soap I imagine?

Those membrane fabrics are so bloody expensive they definitely don't need ruining.

I was once misled by Nikwax instructions into washing a Buffalo Tech top (basically Pertex, which has a thin fleece lining) with the TX Direct wash in proofer.
It simply stopped breathing -
Only one way to get rid, Nikwax advised dry clean -
According to Buffalo TX-Direct is a definite no go - and you definitely can't dry-clean a Buffalo. I am still trying to wash it out a few years later. Expensive top ruined basically as its only usable le for low sweat activity now.

So, IMO Nikwax make great stuff for treatment of waterproofs - but their instructions (and customer support staff) leave a fair bit to be desired.

Witness their "soft shell proof wash in - The easy to use, safe, high performance wash in waterproofing for softshell clothing." "specifically designed and optimised for softshell garments" [ https://www.nikwax.com/en-gb/products/productdetail.php?productid=56&activity= ], Having been stung with the Buffalo, I contacted Nikwax about this, "oh no it's not for any soft-shell with wicking lining"!
I know that plain, unlined soft-shell exists - but what I think of as proper soft shell is actually the comfortable to wear soft fabric stuff with fuzzy lining. The Nikwax website misses out that warning completely AFAICS - so instructions are still misleading, despite my mentioning this years ago.

Nikwax definitely need better communication. skills. sadly.
It seems like really good stuff

Anyone hear the Blistegear 'fabrics' podcasts (from their "Gear:30" subdivision)
compare these interviews with spokespeople, these:
https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/gores-3-new-gore-tex-pro-fabrics-ep-71
https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/what-is-the-north-face-futurelight-ep-74
with this:
https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/nikwax-the-future-of-dwrs-ep-76

theres a great podcast about Icebreaker Merino too. very informative

sorry about the massive gaps in this when online, they are not in my original!

oh well
N

Just so~I have this right, you’re meaning that the 2 layer (with drop lining) should not be treated with a wash – in waterproofer? bit confused by the -3 layer fabrics bit within the hyphens –
3 layer is ok with the wash in stuff
is that right?

Yep, spray-on for for fabrics with a separate floating liner, wash-in for stuff that's a single layer of fabric.

Nikwax definitely need better communication. skills. sadly.
It seems like really good stuff

To be fair, 'soft shell' is a confusing blanket terms that covers a range of different fabrics from membrane-based, windproof stuff like Windstopper, which is acually effectively waterproof. Via double weave fabrics, which are closely woven, highly weather resistant, non-membrane fabrics, through to lined soft shell. You can argue that Buffalo and other pile / Pertex isn't soft shell at all, but it's a moot point really.

A good general rule, as you say, is to use a spray-on reproofer if your garment has a wicking lining or a separate drop liner.

Hey BadlyWiredDog

Yep, spray-on for for fabrics with a separate floating liner, wash-in for stuff that’s a single layer of fabric.

The spray stuff seems more effective too, my Sweet Protection Goretex Active was still wetting out after a TX-direct wash in treatment, the spray worked well. as others have written though the factory DWR (apparently quite toxic that stuff) is the only really effective stuff for wetting-out and its soon gone.

Bought some ShowersPass pants recently, seem pretty good if a little hot, they actually recommend Nikwax TX-Direct wash-in

anyhoo, thanks
I thought that was it.
I guess its obvious once you know, don't wash in waterproof anything that wicks moisture.
[which kinda makes me wonder how the DWR treated outer allows moisture out, plainly it does ;~} ]

neil

So to update the thread. I bought some Nikwax and Endura spray on re-proofer (jacket is Endura pro sl shell II)
Washed last night in Nikwax, and then sprayed with re-proofer while still wet/damp.

This morning it had all dried so I flicked water onto it to test and it beaded nicely. Came back to it a few minutes later and where the drops of water had beaded, it had now soaked into the fabric and there were little drop sized wet patches. Not sure if I have knackered the jacket or done something wrong.

That's what I found with washing jackets. Looks like a beads up nicely and jacket feels slightly waxy, but in any real rain it just gets wet!

I have a TNF jacket which beads amazingly well. Hence I don't dare ever wash it, as it is by far the best DWR finish I have ever seen....

I have a three year old Decathlon sailing jacket that still beads very well and doesn't wet out but I use it for walking so it doesn't get dirty often. I follow the Decathlon guide below but every now and then I brush Thompsons Water Seal on to the jacket, it looks like it just runs off but the jacket beads noticeably better after it is done.

HOW TO REACTIVE THE JACKET'S WATER REPELLENCY
step 1: before washing

Close all zips and flaps and remove any parts of the garment that cannot be washed. Also remember to loosen the straps and elastic parts and empty the pockets.
Then turn the garment inside out to wash it.
HOW TO REACTIVE THE JACKET'S WATER REPELLENCY
step 2: washing

You can wash your jacket on a synthetic cycle at 30° or 40°C with your usual detergent. Do not use fabric conditioner, which could damage the existing performance of the garment, or bleach.
Also take care not to bend your jacket too much when you place it in the washing machine and do not overload your machine.
Very important: select a thorough rinse or double rinse to completely remove all detergent residue.
HOW TO REACTIVE THE JACKET'S WATER REPELLENCY
step 3: drying

Drying is a crucial phase in reactivating the water repellent treatment.
We recommend that you lay your jacket flat on a clothes rack and leave it out to dry in the open. Caution: never dry your jacket directly on a radiator.
Then place it in the tumble dryer on a short synthetics cycle, i.e. 10 to 15 minutes, before turning it back the right way round. Caution: do not over-dry the garment.

as others have written though the factory DWR (apparently quite toxic that stuff) is the only really effective stuff for wetting-out and its soon gone.

There's an ongoing debate about fluro-carbons in DWRs and whether it's more sustainable to use a potentially more harmful DWR during manufacture on the basis that it's more durable, so long term better, with less need for reproofing, or simply to use a less harmful treatment to start with.

Different fabrics hold DWR differently. As a generalisation, it's easier to apply an aftermarket treatment to a polyester face fabric than Nylon/polyamide, but polyesters tends to be less durable fabric.

I think one of the problems with aftermarket DWRs is that it's important to get the fabric super clean before application, but that's very hard to actually do. Grangers has washing machines that are only ever used with technical cleaners and their reproofing products, but that's not exactly feasible for normal people.

The standard advice is to run a boil wash through the machine first and clean out detergent dispensers thoroughly, but there's only so much you can do. When I replaced a broken drum on my old washing machine, the outer drum was literally caked with congealed detergent from previous use. I suspect that's the case with most washing machines, so you're always going to get some contamination which can impact on how well the re-treatment works.

Outdry stuff is great! permanent beading, slightly less breathable than goretex shakedry, but way tougher .

Slightly odd cut on mine though. Will size down next time.

Majority of waterproofs still have PFC DWR which will generally be reactivated by tumble drying on a warm setting. Nikwax and Grangers don’t require the heat activation but most jackets will benefit from it.