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But they’d locate where the best and brightest are? .
No they ****ing don't. They just go to SE England by default because that's were all the other moronic pricks base their businesses.
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chevychase
Full Member
@molgrips:Why? Does it have to be that way?
You persuade google, microsoft, HSBC, Barclays or any of the major energy companies and the like....
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So much truth in those posts Chevy.
No – its the housing. Average wage will still struggle to buy a decent house in large parts of the UK.
No, there's no one local there to buy them. Take the llyn peninsula for example.... The jobs there are almost entirely farming or tourism related.
..... And nearly all the second homes were built as second homes - in addition to what was there already.
There has not been a massive increase in local population requiring more homes.
Take tourism away and you'd be left with ghost town/villages.
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But the fact is the houses are still cheaper than the rest of the UK. i.e. it’s not the housing, it’s the jobs.
If decent jobs arrive in these areas then house prices will jump up, keeping them unaffordable for most. Look what happened to Chepstow, Magor and Caldicot when the Tolls were taken off the bridges: house prices jumped 10% overnight and have continued to accelerate upwards as Bristol residents moved across. Take a look at what happened when the Pandemic pushed every company to accept home working: everyone that could moved to the countryside looking for space and outdoor access. Prices jumped up and priced locals with local jobs even further out of the market.
Take my wage: £28k a year. That gets me a maximum mortgage of £135k with a 10% deposit (plus fees/surveys etc). Realistically it's a £100k mortgage and to be within a sensible commute of my work that buys the square root of **** all. If I were to move to where there is cheaper housing, let's choose Blaenau Ffestiniog as an example, I could afford to buy a terraced house. But there is no work there that would pay me the required wage to get the mortgage in the first place. Now let's look at somewhere I would love to live: Brecon. House prices are high and wages are low, the worst combination. There's also virtually no rental market to talk about so that's out too. It's an area popular with tourists and has a lot of second homes, Air B&B's and the like. It's an area that suffers with tourist overload - walkers, day trippers, campers, caravans, mountain bikers, motor enthusiasts etc. These put a big load on the local facilities and a Tourist Tax will help pay for that. Together with the other measures it may well help keep a cap on house prices so that locals with local jobs can afford to stay there.
Except if you want a Chef in Mayfair, they can get the tube from somewhere (relatively) affordable in 20 minutes
lollll!!! Average rent on a one bed flat within 20 minutes commute of Mayfair is not lower than £1300 a month/£15,600 a year. Even if you go 30 mins (station to station) on the tube, you'll be lucky to get rent down to £1200 a month. Average pretax wages for a sous chef in Mayfair is £32,143 a year. 49% of pretax salary on rent is not affordable.
https://www.london.gov.uk/programmes-strategies/housing-and-land/improving-private-rented-sector/london-rents-map
https://www.caterer.com/jobs/sous-chef/in-mayfair
People want to live here and want to be able to afford a house near where they work but they can’t…because they are priced out of the market.
How is that different to anywhere else in the UK? Where in the UK is housing affordable - compared to local salaries, not some mythical future where we are all Java nerds working remotely from Aberystwyth.
Some data for you:
Sorry to bring the B word up, but I’d happily pay a tax for visiting places. With one caveat, if the majority of the people in said place voted leave, tough shit, reap what you sow.
This whole affordability argument is absolute bollocks too. I earn a very good wage and can’t afford to move from a two bed house to a three. The jump in price is insurmountable. Yes, I could move to a shitty area, but I grew up in one and I’m not putting my kids through that. Likely that me and Mrs F will end up sleeping in the living room at some point in the next few years.
My flat was 2.5 times salary 30 years ago – now its worth ten times salary for a equivalent job.
But you are center of Edinburgh no?
Those areas have benefited from urbanisation, ie demand >> supply. There are rural areas where demand < supply....
On the subject of Jobs in rural areas and the trend of urbanisation, some interesting reading on the OECD website....
Digitalisation can help rural regions to overcome some of their traditional challenges. Low density and shrinking local markets are two of the main bottlenecks for long-term sustainability in many rural economies (see Chapter 3). These characteristics tend to inhibit the formation of economies of scale, making it difficult for businesses to grow and for workers to find the right labour opportunities to apply their skills. Firms in small, local economies struggle when it comes to competing against firms in urban areas that can produce higher volumes at more strategic locations closer to customers (OECD, 2019[2]). Digitalisation can offer new growth possibilities and opportunities for better and more diversified jobs in rural regions. Some effects of the digital age that can provide a boost for rural regions include reduction of trade times and costs, the exchange of new types of products and services, and disruptive ways to work and join the labour market.
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/ae6bf9cd-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/ae6bf9cd-en
And on the trend of urbanisation...
Europe's level of urbanisation is expected to increase to approximately 83.7% in 2050.
Trends in the total population of EU27 and UK from 1961 to 2018 show a decline in the share of population living in rural areas over the total population, while towns and cities experienced a smooth and constant increase.
Whereas the total population of European Functional Urban Areas (FUAs) is projected to increase on average by 4% by 2050, almost half of them will actually lose population, with 10% of cities losing more than a quarter of their population between 2015 and 2050.
The migration of population to cities is one of the factors driving agricultural land abandonment, which is expected to reach 4.2 million ha net over the period 2015-2030, bringing the total abandoned land to 5.6 million ha by 2030, the equivalent of 3% of total agricultural land.
Built-up areas are likely to expand by more than 3% between 2015 and 2030, reaching 7% of the EU territory by 2030.
In 2015 France had the largest absolute built-up area in the EU – more than 5 million ha, 17% of the EU total, followed by Germany (4.2 million ha, 14%) and Italy (2.9 million ha, 10%). In relative terms (built-up as share of the total territory), the densely populated Malta, Belgium and the Netherlands topped the list with 35%, 22% and 21% respectively.
By 2030, built-up areas are expected to expand across most of the EU. Italy will see the largest absolute increase (+144 thousand ha), followed by Germany (+128 thousand ha) and Poland (+121 thousand ha). The highest relative growth, around 6%, is expected in Romania and Belgium. On the other hand, some decrease in built-up land is likely in Bulgaria and Croatia.
https://knowledge4policy.ec.europa.eu/foresight/topic/continuing-urbanisation/urbanisation-europe_en
@jambourgie, you're hired as tester and DJ. My interest is purely in location and low impact business potential. Plus, "As far back as I can remember I always wanted to be a gangster"
(of sorts, a hippy gangster would be perfect)
It's the same with most pretty areas. They are that way because there is a low population, not much commerce and therefore few jobs. I'm all for it. The proposed levy is purely tokenism from a payee's perspective (~£1 per night) but collectively creates a useful fund to protect those areas e.g. funding mountain rescue. The big problems atm are finding staff for low wage jobs in hospitality. Most school leavers will depart for the big city and never come back.
Surely the Welsh language and culture is worth a few quid per night to protect? Then it will be there next year!
Wales also had many EU 'Objective 1' areas which received £billions of funding in the past. That's now gone and the levelling up fund/Mid Wales Growth deal will only provide £millions so if you want to enjoy the same comforts, cough up!
if you want to enjoy the same comforts, cough up!
You would have thought the Brexit-voting North Welshmen that ought to cough up for the Brexit dividend rather than the bourgeois Remoaner holidaymakers...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
Can't believe anyone would moan about this. Whilst tourism is an integral part of the Welsh economy, it creates a lot of negative externalities (demand on public services, footpath erosion, parking problems etc etc). Paying less than 1% of a hotel stay towards restitution of the locale is surely a good thing!
Wales has lost ~£1 billion in funding since Brexit: https://www.gov.wales/written-statement-loss-funding-wales-result-uk-governments-arrangements-replacement-eu-funding
The Welsh people also overwhelmingly voted for Brexit: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-referendums/past-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendum/results-and-turnout-eu-referendum/eu-referendum-results-region-wales
What does this have to do with tourism tax? Wales voted for something that cut funding to them and is now trying to make up for it with tourism tax. The Welsh government hasn't exactly done a lot to provide an alternative to tourism based jobs for the Welsh people.
£2 a night is neither here nor there for people that can afford to go on holiday. No issues paying it so I can go on holiday. I do have a problem with paying money because of the Welsh governments gross incompetence.
The Welsh people also overwhelmingly voted for Brexit
That's not overwhelming.
Wales voted for something that cut funding to them
Well, we were told that there wouldn't be a cut, in fairness. The main problem was that people believed the government.
The Welsh government hasn’t exactly done a lot to provide an alternative to tourism based jobs for the Welsh people.
There are a number of schemes, whether or not they work is the real question.
There are a number of schemes, whether or not they work is the real question.
Whether or not they can ever work is the real question.
It's not the Welsh governments job to "create jobs" - it's their job to ensure that businesses that want to locate in Wales can thrive. But the job creation thing is business' role - and big business wants a big pool of people to choose from. With the best will in the world the Welsh government can't magic up half a million well-educated people in rural wales within half an hour's drive of Landridod Wells (population 5000 - quite a big town for the area.)
At some point, people have to take responsibility for the choices they make. That's why loads of the kids leave - because opportunity is better elsewhere. And that's not the fault of the businesses or of the Welsh government. It's just a fact of life.
And still. Housing is cheap, cheap, cheap.
The second homeowners thing is a load of crap and utterly misrepresented by the scummy nationalists. 6% of homeowners in Gwynedd own a second home - the majority of them in Gwynedd. That's locals soaking up the local second home stock - not "incomers" like Plaid keep screaming about. When you compare census-data on second home ownership and council tax data that supports the analysis - most of the second-home owners people who own second homes live local. (So the council tax double or triple-whammy hits the locals.) And still, outside of the "mayfair" areas, plenty of cheap(-er than the rest of the UK) and available housing.
It’s not the Welsh governments job to “create jobs”
Disagree with this completely.
It is the job of the government to create the conditions that companies can use to create jobs, but how that gets done varies a lot. It might be simply building the roads that companies need to get their goods in and out, or it might be creating tax breaks to encourage businesses to set up. Or it might be educating people so that they have the skills that lead to the innovations required to create jobs etc. All jobs depend on governments in some way.
It’s just a fact of life.
Lots of countries have started poor and gone on to grow strong economies.
Japan
South Korea
Ireland
And more I'm sure. So I don't think having a poor economy is an intrinsic characteristic of geography.
6% of homeowners in Gwynedd own a second home – the majority of them in Gwynedd.
Bottom line: is it fair that people can buy two of a limited resource when others have none? Your answer to this depends on your political compass (so I think I know what your answer will be) and that, IMO, depends on your level of empathy for people who aren't in your immediate social or familial group.
most of the second-home owners people who own second homes live local
Is that to rent them out to tourists? So we're back to the problem of communities actually disappearing, yes?
Disagree with this completely.
Oh you do do you? Why not quote my whole sentence?
It’s not the Welsh governments job to “create jobs” – it’s their job to ensure that businesses that want to locate in Wales can thrive. But the job creation thing is business’ role – and big business wants a big pool of people to choose from
So, actually what you said. You're just disagreeing for disagreeing's sake.
Bottom line: is it fair that people can buy two of a limited resource when others have none?Bottom line: is it fair that people can buy two of a limited resource when others have none?
There are plenty of cheap houses in wales. Plenty. If you can't afford a home in Wales - where houses are cheaper than the much of the rest of the UK - then you need to get a better job. If the jobs aren't there - then unfortunately like the rest of the bloody country you need to go where they are.
That's fair. Get off your shiftless arse and go and get a better job instead of sitting in your pants repeating the lie that there are no houses and that second home owners are driving the prices up - because other than in the Mayfair destinations they are not.
Cheap housing available all over the place in Wales. It's a a giant lie to say there isn't. If you choose to stay, when many others move away to better their prospects, then that's your choice. OWN it and don't moan about it.
So we’re back to the problem of communities actually disappearing, yes?
Second homes have been the saviour of many communities. Villages that were previously doomed through lack of jobs have actually grown because of second homes.
Take Abersoch for example (although this could be applied to many places on the llyn peninsula) in the early 70's it had a newsagents, two pubs a butcher, pharmacy one restaurant and two grocers.
During the 70's and 80's there were a lot of homes built, all as second homes. It now has the same two pubs, 4 bars, 9 restaurants, the butchers, about 5 or 6 clothes shops, the pharmacy, the newsagents, at least one deli, two coffee shops, two estate agents, 3 surf shops and a few others that I've forgotten about.
Nearly every one of these businesses is open all year whereas the place used to be a ghost town from October - April.
All these businesses have grown because of second homes as they are used year round either by the owners or by the people renting them. Then there's the jobs created by the second homes - plumbers, electricians, decorators and gardeners are all needed purely because of the number of second homes and the amount of tourism they generate.
Many people think that second homes are used for 3 or 4 weeks a year and lie idle the rest of the time, whereas the reality is that many of them are are rented out which creates the places for tourists to go as there are no hotels left there now. This creates the jobs, which keeps people employed locally which creates the community (and the income from the tourist tax).
Some of by greatest, and oldest, friends are Welsh 'locals' - many with businesses and they all completely disagree with what the Welsh government are doing.
Get rid of the empty second homes and you'll just be left with empty dying communities.
Get rid of the empty second homes and you’ll just be left with empty dying communities.
Edit: Get rid of the second homes and you’ll just be left with empty dying communities.
Cheap housing available all over the place in Wales.
Wales is a fair size. If you're want to stay close to your family and home in say Gwynedd (outrageously selfish as that might be) then a house in the Rhondda isn't much good to you is it?
Are you saying that families, friends and communities don't matter? It's a good job free childcare is so good so you can still get a job when you have small kids and you don't need grandparents to look after them.. And elder care is so good that you can be assured your parents will be happy and well provided for as they age.. oh, wait, that's not true.
Get off your shiftless arse
I.. what the actual ****? You just want to be a bastard for the sake of it, don't you? You really don't understand humanity in the least.
There are arguments to be made - Sharkbait makes a good one - but suggesting that people are simply lazy for not wanting to leave their homes and families behind is pretty shitty. Do you really have no concept of the value of community and support network?
There are other ways to measure success than the number of poncy restaurants and size of your speedboat.
Works well in France. Where also the local Mayor in our village is building walking and cycling routes to improve pedestrian and bike access, because he has funds to do so and a team of workers (the village has 450 inhabitants).
I think the UK has got really used to money disappearing to Westminster and centralised decision making (I’ve worked on UK cycle lanes and the decision goes all the way to London before it’s made) that we can be a bit cynical about things like this. But we should applaud them - after all people in Wales will be able to vote on the people that raise and spend the money.
Any chipping away at the UK being 95% centralised has got to be a good thing.
There are other ways to measure success than the number of poncy restaurants and size of your speedboat.
Absolutely.... Like creating jobs for people to stay in an area for and "saving" a community.
It may not be the same type of community you'd like but it's better than none.
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's wrong. Unfortunately your comment shows just how bigoted some people are.
The UK is not 95% centralised - that's just stilly talk.
Lots of countries have started poor and gone on to grow strong economies.
Japan
South Korea
Ireland
Japan and South Korea industralised after WW2 thanks to authoritarian governments that managed the economy, and receiving massive injections of aid from the US. Neither of those things can be copied by Wales.
Wales was in fact on the Irish development model - persuade Germany to give you tons of money via the EU - but the voters of Wales voted in favour of Brexit so...yeah, taxing inbound tourists £2 a night will fix that...
One of the biggest issues is the way static site wners treat those with vans. Very restrictive license deals (wi got told to take over the bills by our in-laws after they fell ill). We did that and looked after the van. We're at the point of getting kicked off the site at the end of the year as the van is too 'old', but immaculate. All sites have a rule on age, and not condition.
Given we are in Wales most weekends, do we bin it off or, god forbid, buy a cheap property ? For the same money each year ?
We'll probably bin it off (despite being able to buy a property), and spend any time outside of Wales now. We spend alot of our disposable income in Wales, shopping, meals out etc. Not so much at home. We're only 70 miles from the caravan at home.
I am dead against buying a second home, and a tin box is fine, but the caravan sites rip everyone off.
Japan and South Korea industralised after WW2 thanks to authoritarian governments that managed the economy, and receiving massive injections of aid from the US. Neither of those things can be copied by Wales.
Of course. Just refuting the idea that nothing can change. It obviously can. I don't see why we should have to let money decide everything. Money is significant (I'm not a communist) but other things are important too.
I had to leave the countryside and go and work in cities, which I hate. If I were starting out now I'd probably be applying for remote jobs, and bringing money out of probably London and into a small rural town. Which, I appreciate, would push up house prices as well if everyone did it.
If I were starting out now I’d probably be applying for remote jobs, and bringing money out of probably London and into a small rural town.
If you were a fresh 18 year old (or a fresh grad) applying for remote work jobs from rural Wales now, you wouldn't be offered "London money".
Wales is a fair size. If you’re want to stay close to your family and home in say Gwynedd (outrageously selfish as that might be) then a house in the Rhondda isn’t much good to you is it?
No, but the house couple of miles away is absolutely available to you. There's loads of them, all over Gwynedd.
There’s loads of them, all over Gwynedd.
Right. So it's all made up and evreryone's a bunch of whingers, right?
If you were a fresh 18 year old (or a fresh grad) applying for remote work jobs from rural Wales now, you wouldn’t be offered “London money”.
You misunderstand. I mean money would be earned in London and spent in Wales.
@molgrips:
Right. So it’s all made up and evreryone’s a bunch of whingers, right?
The ones whinging about it? Yes. Yes, I am saying absolutely that. 100% I'm making that assertion. The ones moaning are the Plaid Cymru types generating the same old 70's and 80's Welsh Nationalism noise. It's absolutely a load of crap.
Quick look on rightmove can help you - houses sub 150k in Gwynedd on rightmove just today - that's 312. Of the 1321 properties currently on sale. Based on county population size and housing available there's more houses available in Gwynedd per head of population than are available in Nottingham - and roughly three times the equivalent proportion of affordable houses.
Sorry, nothing in Abersoch at the moment, but there's plenty of affordable houses and flats on sale in Pwllheli - a 12 minute drive away, which is close enough if you want to stick near yer mum eh?
I am indeed saying it's crap. It's a narrative being driven by the dumb, whiny, Plaid Cymru brexiter-types - who hate the English, and hate any locals who don't feel the same way they do to boot. It's a sickening victim mentality that was on the wane since the bad old days of my childhood where it wasn't uncommon for houses to get burned. But since the banking crisis of 2008 and the stagnation of wages since then it's been on the rise and rearing it's ugly head again - along with Cofiwch Dryweryn graffiti getting plastered all over the place by young neds who's mothers weren't even born when they sunk the village.
There's a pattern of idiot nationalism getting it's handhold during times of economic woe throughout history. It's not a surprise that it's happening again now.
Don't fall for it. It's a load of crap and it's being driven and exploited by horrible people who've got an agenda.
There are houses in wales. Second home owners are a net good to towns that would otherwise have died out long ago. Wales is a tourist and farming economy - it's not a service-industry economic powerhouse and in this economy it NEVER will be. That's just reality. And you could wish for it to be different - but it isn't and won't be - and people who can't accept reality are idiot fantasist dreamers.
Wales is a fantastic place to live. I love it. Always have. It's why I live here - and could throw a stone over the border to Gwynedd and know it well. It's a fantastic place to come on holiday - and I would urge people to do so - I prefer it to the lake district (Wales has beaches) and Cornwall (Wales has mountains). It's cheap compared to the Lakes & Cornwall too - it still caters to the impoverished mountain climber and hasn't disappeared up it's own arse in a cloud of middle-class sensibility. And that goes for property too - house are affordable and plentiful. It's the jobs - and that ain't going to change.
So yeah. I'll pit my lifetime of experience and knowledge of the local area and local sensibilities against what you read in the papers from miles away and I stand by it.
Sorry, nothing in Abersoch at the moment, but there’s plenty of affordable houses and flats on sale in Pwllheli
Affordable homes? No there isn't.
There were 5 built as part of a development about 8 years ago..... Very nice indeed, near the village centre.
....... They couldn't sell a single one for 6 years as nobody local wanted them!
In the end the council had to change the rules as to who could buy them.
What surprises me is how governments and businesses have endless ways of making things cost more, or make things that were free cost something. It's only a few quid here and there after all and in this case it obviously won't stop people going!
I do wonder if the everythings too cheap people of the internet. Bid against themselves on ebay or pay more than people are asking in shops or any other auction. This notion of wanting to pay more for things all the time is weird to say the least and smacks of stupidity or vested interests.
This notion of wanting to pay more for things all the time is weird to say the least and smacks of stupidity or vested interests.
There are a lot of things that we've got used to paying a cheaper price for that shouldn't be that cheap. Often it's because something or someone is exploited in order to make it cheaply or conceal the true cost.
No-one wants to work low-pay jobs in tourism as a career choice. Well, not many. The only way to get the required numbers is through immigration, people will do these jobs for a working holiday, to see the world etc.
Oops.
They still need somewhere to live while they do it, of course, but will probably put up with something a bit more basic than a 3-bed semi.
It's a win all round, apart from the xenophobes who would rather kill the economy than hear a Polish accent in their local cafe.
But they’d locate where the best and brightest are? If they’re a startup tech company and they DON’T locate in a city, then you have to ask yourself what the directors are smoking.
“Hey, I’ve a great idea. We need the best and brightest talent”.
“Trawsfynned m8. There’s a lake, a small hamlet and about 2000 sheep”.
“Cool. Do you think they know python?”
I was the founder of a tech company and we gave some semi-serious consideration to locating an office in Scottish tourist “heaven” when we were at expansion stage. Many of our existing staff were quite outdoorsy. Many of our existing staff spent their weekends going to places like this anyway. Others had their families in the highlands and only stayed in the city after Uni because it’s where the work was. We thought it might give us a competitive edge in hiring - you could live in Edinburgh, paying Edinburgh rents, or you could live somewhere more work-life balanced and be happier (the FD also thought she might not need to pay quite so bloody much for people paying Edinburgh rates). We had an issue with their being too many other employers all trying to fight for the same pool of people and spiralling salaries - when changing jobs doesn’t even involve you changing bus route it’s very easy to be tempted for more £. If it involves moving home that’s a bigger ask.
three things stopped us - 1. The availability of suitable office type accom (we didn’t want to build or get into a long planning process); 2. The availability of “long term” rental housing; 3. (And this was the killer) the lack of other jobs in the area likely to appeal to partners/spouses of our staff.
They all work 100% remote now, so any of the staff could move to the sticks if they wanted. They haven’t, I suspect because of the jobs for partners issue.
I still sometimes think that if I was going to do it again, we should break the mould and try it. I still sometimes have a beer with one of the former senior management at a major employer in Inverness - he reminds me that they actually pay more to entice specialise staff there than they would if they were based in Coatbridge or Cheshire.
anyway, that’s taking us even more off topic. I’d pay £2, I’d not even notice it in the grant scheme of things, I’m used to doing it in various parts of the world (and those who say they would avoid the area will have paid it elsewhere too, so that is hot air). How it’s reinvested is an interesting problem, it’s almost like we need a way for the local population to select the people in charge of those decisions - perhaps changing it every 4-5 yrs if you don’t like the answers.
Would like to see it introduced here on the Scottish Islands – tourism puts a massive strain on local, publically funded resources. Folks stock-up on the mainland in the supermarkets, rent a cottage from someone who lives elsewhere and we get left with their rubbish and 💩
whilst that is all true, almost every problem of island life would be worse if there were no toursits. Your ferries would be worse, your shops would have even less stock and higher prices, rent would be cheaper but lots of people would be out of work etc. as a frequent visitor to the islands I would happily pay a tax - there’s a weird irony that the Scot Gov subsidise the ferries, it would potentially be better to collect that tax on passengers (especially vehicles), so day trippers, campers etc who contribute to the issues pay too.
Monies could be used to build aires for overnight campers with toilets and waste water disposal points,
Ironically “wild” campers contribute to the problem but are probably missed by the suggested taxes. Out of interest though if those facilities have demand why is no entreprenurial land owner already bleeding the tourists for their £?
as well as funding rangers who help guide people in how not to trash the place, scare off the wildlife or burn down the forest.
do you already have them on Mull? I know some islands do - not sure how funded. I’m not sure you can actually stop those three things (just as you won’t stop locals doing shit they’ve got away with for generations, but that isn’t always great for sustainability). Your best hope is that it pays for rangers to remediate and act quickly when shit happens.
They couldn’t sell a single one for 6 years as nobody local wanted them
Nobody local wanted them òr nobody local bid for them? Quite à different thing.
Indeed... how "affordable" were they? That term "affordable homes" was redefined legally by a UK government that has no concept of what affordable means to those on lower wages without the bank of mum and dad to draw on. No idea if that applies in Wales as well
I was about to ask what is termed 'affordable'? That will vary on location and also vary on personal circumstances...I think someone has mentioned £150k as 'affordable' - that is certainly more affordable than £200k, but it will still be a stretch for many people - can certainly help if there are 2 of you paying for it, but it isn't a definite for everyone.
I keep looking at houses in the area I'm in, prices are scary...I can see why many builders are now building 5+ bedroom 'mansions' as it does appear that parents and their siblings are now living in the same house for longer due to the price of houses. I can also see why many people are struggling to get on the property ladder - it is always very easy to say 'get a better paid job', but that is never easy - that works well for the government to rattle that off, but for the public it is never that easy.
If I was holidaying in a location, I'd have no problem paying 'extra' as a tourist tax - depending on how much extra it was and being able to see what is was being spent on then I'd likely be happy to pay more.
Yep, I'd defined less than 150k as "affordable". But I've also made the point that jobs are the problem in Gwynedd, not housing availability - and evidenced that.
If you're struggling to put together cash for a house which is approx. half the cost of the average UK property - in a place with loads of houses at that price (or less) - then it's clear that it's not the availability of housing that's your problem.
If someone buys a second home to rent out - they sure as sheet aren't looking at two bed terraces in not particularly salubrious streets to attract tourists are they? They're looking for beach-front hideaways, or country bolt-holes - desireable places that cost a fair bit more. They're also prepared to spend money on necessary renovations - keeping the local building trade in what is a very robust health. But they're not pricing first-timers out of the market.
Sorry. It just ain't true.
I dont know if the situation is the same in Wales but in the highlands and islands of Scotland job vacancies in the tourism/bàr/accomodation sector are going unfilled because the wages dont cover the cost of accomodation and living expenses.
This is leading businesses to close one òr two days a week.
The housing shortage is so bad that well payed people such às teachers are often unable to find housing within a reasonable travelling distance of their work.
Yes tourism is a vital industry for places like the highlands or west Wales but it is also vital to remember that these are places where people live work grow up marry and die.
But they’re not pricing first-timers out of the market.
Sorry. It just ain’t true.
Someone doesn't understand housing supply. People with growing families don't/can't move out of their "first-timers" suitable property because they can't afford someone bigger/nicer... because those much better off are buying those homes to leave empty half the year... this then has a knock on effect on price and availability for first time buyers. Also, remember, somewhere having cheaper properties than where you live doesn't mean that people in the area can afford those properties.
People with growing families don’t/can’t move out of their “first-timers” suitable property because they can’t afford someone bigger/nicer
Which is why people have always had the option to move to a location where they can afford something bigger/nicer.
When I bought my first house I couldn't afford to buy in the village that I'd grown up in so I bought a few miles away where housing was more affordable because it was less desirable than where my parents lived - should I have had a right to buy in the village were I grew up? Should I have been outraged?
Are you saying that a 3 bed semi should be the same price regardless of where it is located - Centre of London, by the beach in Poole, Dudley, Glasgow, Cardiff, etc?
Are you saying that a 3 bed semi should be the same price regardless of where it is located
No, the opposite.
Second homes owned by people living and earning elsewhere help inflate property prices beyond that that which people living and working in the area can afford. There is an additional knock on effect on local business due to seasonal occupation of too many properties that can’t be denied either.
Putting it simply... someone buying a home and moving into an area has a different effect on the local economy and people living there than... someone buying a house and leaving it empty most of the year while they live and work elsewhere. Inflating house prices that are matched with increased economic activity is one thing... inflating house prices linked to depopulation quite another.
So maybe there should be a policy where people buying second homes can only purchase homes that are/were designated through planning, and built, as "holiday homes". (Which would include about 60-70% of the total properties in Abersoch)
This would preserve at least all of the original housing stock for people living full time in the location whilst still enabling the benefits of second homes to the area.
Unfortunately it's too late for the vast majority of places for this to be effective but I know some councils are bring these sort of restrictions in.
Sorry @Kelvin - @sharkbait's right - and your point has already been addressed in previous posts.
There's lots of housing in Gwynedd - up and down the full value chain. Lots of options in the cheap, mid, high and "WTF that's a Castle" parts of the market. Second home ownership numbers are high in a few picturesque "mayfair" towns but really vanishingly small across the whole county - and these "mayfair" towns would be dead without the tourism that makes them viable - because no other business makes them viable but tourism.
These mayfair towns - the honey-pot places - are thriving because of tourism. But every single person who wants a house and can afford a house in Gwynedd can get one - if they've got a decent-paying job. And the houses they can get in Gwynedd are better / bigger / cheaper than their equivalents in the rest of the country. And plentiful. Lots of cheap properties available for all.
It's jobs. And the remedy for no jobs is to do what everyone else has to do - you have to get off your arse and MOVE.
Until and unless we reform capitalism - which as much as I'd love us to ain't gonna happen - that's the reality. Gwynedd is saved by tourism. It's saved by second homes. Without tourism Gwynedd would be a poverty-stricken hole with run-down wrecked housing everywhere and damp, sad sheep.
Here's the breakdown:
£1.35 billion asof 2019. The second highest number of tourism jobs anywhere in England and Wales - because it's lovely - but it's got pretty much nothing else.
And despite that - lots of houses. Lots of affordable houses, up and down the chain. However, it's also got lots of Plaid Cymru nationalist w****kers - who are kicking up a stink because people from outside the local area are changing the demographics - and they're rich people from ABCD1* demographics coming and spending their money freely. And they're JEALOUS.
So the narrative is a lie. It's based on jealousy. It's like the 1970's and 80's all over again.
It’s jobs.
It’s the relationship between living costs and wages. House prices would be lower if it wasn’t for people who earn their money outside the area owning property they leave empty in the area.
It’s based on jealousy.
The impact of such inequalities is more than just “jealousy”.
Sorry @Kelvin - ignoring the fact that tourism is the lifeline that keeps Gwynedd running - the percentage of second home ownership in the tiny parts of Gwynedd that has high second-home ownership isn't enough to move the dial at all. (And we're ignoring the fact that most second home owners are FROM Gwynedd - so not "outside the area" - they're locals who've bought a holiday let).
Housing is still much much much cheaper than the national average. Despite the fact that their average and median salaries are less than the average for the UK, the housing is both plentiful and cheaper than the UK average - so they're in no way worse off than anyone else in the UK.
The noise about housing there is a LIE. It's an agenda pushed by Welsh nationalists.
ignoring the fact that tourism is the lifeline that keeps Gwynedd running
I wouldn't ignore that. Doesn't mean that empty houses and the resulting overly seasonal nature of the local economy doesn't have downsides. Like most people, I'm a tourist who doesn't own a second home. There are millions of us. And I'm not just talking day trippers... there are pubs, campsites... etc etc...
It’s an agenda pushed by Welsh nationalists.
If you say so. The same "agenda" is "pushed" outside Wales as well though, by people other than Welsh nationalists.
If you’re struggling to put together cash for a house which is approx. half the cost of the average UK property – in a place with loads of houses at that price (or less) – then it’s clear that it’s not the availability of housing that’s your problem.
But fundamentally, anything that pushes up prices, even a bit, is then bad for the local people competing for those homes. £100/month on a mortgage is £100 less in the local economy, which matters all the more when it's only borderline viable anyway.
And even on a lower wage, anyone living there 365days a year is going to be putting more into the local economy, they're paying for indirectly and directly paying tradespeople, shops, amazon drivers, childcare, accountants, solicitors, teachers etc etc. Rather than someone there part time buying the odd meal in the pub. Which is why the 2nd home tax is only being applied to those with low occupancy. If you can fill a house enough of the year that it would have a meaningful contribution then it doesn't apply.
The same “agenda” is pushed outside Wales as well though, by people other than Welsh nationalists.
Nope. It's a wider general argument about home affordability - which I agree with and I suspect we're both aligned on. But in Wales, it's being used to batter people who aren't the problem and who are not only not causal to the problem (the problem is capitalism, ultimately) - they're actually bringing jobs and people to the area.
Housing being expensive in general is a problem. We all get that. Battering people with holiday homes in Gwynedd for 300% council tax isn't going to change that. If every single one of them - bar none - sold up tomorrow because the tax was too expensive then there wouldn't be a massive house price drop. In fact, they'd struggle to sell. Because there's plenty of housing and not enough people who want to live there.
Visit? Yep. But who wants to live where there's no good jobs, no good prospects and if you're lucky you're working in pubs, restaurants or cafes?
I can live here because I WFH 100% of the time. I've paid my dues moving from city to city though. But I'm dependent on a single mobile tower that EE have just been fekking about with so I've gone from 75mbps to 12. And there ain't no other tower, and there ain't no landline broadband possibilities. So there's not even the infrastructure to allow people to work remotely even if they can.
So, I've got sympathies with housing being expensive in the UK period. But none with the "Gwynedd" / Wales problems. Because it's just not true.
fundamentally, anything that pushes up prices, even a bit, is then bad for the local people competing for those homes
Nobody's "competeing for homes" in Gwynedd. There's loads of homes. Lots and lots of very cheap homes.
How many times do I have to say that?
It's not the housing. It's the jobs.
It’s a wider general argument about home affordability
Part of which is the impact of empty houses owned by people who only occasionally visit. Not unique to Wales at all. Whole villages in the prettier rural parts of the rest of the UK are facing the same problem.
Is the same lie about Cornwall spread by the welsh nationalists?
And even on a lower wage, anyone living there 365days a year is going to be putting more into the local economy, they’re paying for indirectly and directly paying tradespeople, shops, amazon drivers, childcare
Average wage in Gwynedd is 28k. After mortgage, food, petrol, whatever, that doesn't leave a lot of spends.
People coming in (read up - they're ABC1's) nearly all have better salaries and bigger disposable incomes. Without those salaries and disposable incomes being spent in Gwynedd those pubs would close, those cafe's would close - and the jobs on rubbish salaries that are supporting people in Gwynedd would disappear - because they're dependent on tourism (and North Wales tourism is a thing all year round - sure Abersoch doesn't ring to the sound of annoying jetskis in January but it's pubs are open).
Second homes aren't the problem. They're the solution. Local people have bought second homes because there's no jobs and its a way for them to make money when there's no other opportunities.
People aren't stupid. It's NOT incomers from outside the area. The government's own figures show it.
The housing thing is a LIE.
@towpathman - I don't know about Cornwall. I don't live there and don't have 50 years experience of the local area like I do with Gwynedd. But it wouldn't surprise me if there were significant similarities as well as signficant differences.
Local people have bought second homes because there’s no jobs and its a way for them to make money when there’s no other opportunities.
Ah... you're describing buy to let (whether permanent residence or week by week to visitors) as "second homes"... where as the problem economically is people leaving properties empty for most of the year, ready for them to use for the odd weekend away and a nice long summer break. Full occupancy does indeed give more to the area economically, even if the property is owned by someone living and working elsewhere. That's not a second home, that's a local residency or business owned remotely.
It’s NOT incomers from outside the area.
Agreed, it's people buying homes and yet not moving to the area, or renting it out as full occupancy.
Last post on this thread from me as I've posted way too much already:
@kelvin:
Part of which is the impact of empty houses owned by people who only occasionally visit. Not unique to Wales at all. Whole villages in the prettier rural parts of the rest of the UK are facing the same problem.
Again, this is the Mayfair point I've made.
If rich people weren't buying the mayfair properties then they'd be dead fishing villages. Abersoch would be a hole with no pubs and cafes and the wider area would be poorer. Because to get a decent job on a decent wage most people will have to leave for the big smoke.
But I also say that this "absent of people in winter" issue is an exaggeration of the reality. The pubs are open, the cafes are open. It's just a lot LOT quieter. But then it would be wouldn't it - it's almost unbearably busy in the summer. You'd never find me visiting on easter bank holiday weekend, or any time during the school holidays, or weekends. It's hell on earth as far as I'm concerned.
Same for Padstow in Cornwall. Rick Stein restaruantees and barely enough room to get to the door of the pubs. Utter carnage. So by the time winter knocks round - well a lot of the tourists have dried up after depositing hewuge wads of cash on the local businesses (and litter on the beach).
But if you live outside, your house is cheap, you're a short bike ride away from the beach. It's just something to moan about when people are there, and something to moan about when people aren't. And then you moan about how expensive houses are. And then you remember the jet-skiiers that you hate because they make such a racket - and you blame second home owners for all your woes, vote Brexit and sign up for Plaid Cymru. And it was better when the Englanders in the 70's knew to be respectful or you'd happily set fire to their house.
But Ceridwen's airbnb? They should exempt her. She's local.
And even on a lower wage, anyone living there 365days a year is going to be putting more into the local economy, they’re paying for indirectly and directly paying tradespeople, shops, amazon drivers, childcare, accountants, solicitors, teachers etc etc. Rather than someone there part time buying the odd meal in the pub.
And that's where you're actually quite wrong - just a few examples:
Owners of second homes use more local trades than people who live there purely because no-one has a second home to go there and do the decorating and mow the lawn.
In fact second homes that are rented means they are redecorated far more frequently than normal as they get more wear and tear and always need to look their best.
The same goes for the actual buildings. Second homes are more likely to have alterations, repairs, extensions, etc and all of this is carried out by local tradesmen, which is one of the reasons why second homes create so many jobs.
I can guarantee that people arriving for a weeks rental don't bring all their food with them - there's always a mad rush of deliveries on a Friday and Saturday.
Teachers? Not only do second home owners pay council tax but it's now 150% EXTRA in Gwynedd - and that without using the schooling system!
No @kelvin:
here as the problem economically is people leaving properties empty for most of the year, ready for them to use for the odd weekend away and a nice long summer break
This is NOT a problem, see above. And it's not what they're legislating against anyway - second homes are second homes regardless of if they're buy-to-let or houses that were originally built as "second homes" in the 1960's for that purpose.
Absersoch is busy all year round. Because of tourists.
But if you live outside, your house is cheap, you’re a short bike ride away from the beach.
If you live inland from Padstow, your house is not cheap... house prices have been pushed up because... housing market stratification does not mean house prices are independent... people buying up coastal properties and leaving them empty pushes up prices inland. These homes may look "cheap" to you, but they have been made even more unaffordable on local incomes due to people buying second homes.
150% EXTRA in Gwynedd – and that without using the schooling system!
But the school system is still needed. Second home owners might mean fewer pupils in those schools, as their kids go to school where they really live, but the local schools still need staffing and building upkeep for those houses with families living in them all year around.
And it’s not what they’re legislating against anyway – second homes are second homes regardless of if they’re buy-to-let
That's because the UK regulation does not allow them to make that distinction for this purpose. That's not on Gwynedd or the Welsh Assembly, or Welsh nationalists.
Which is why the 2nd home tax is only being applied to those with low occupancy. If you can fill a house enough of the year that it would have a meaningful contribution then it doesn’t apply.
Ummmm.... no it's being applied to everyone!
IF you can rent your house out for a touch over 6 months of the year then you can pay business rates instead of council tax.
BUT litereally no-one will be able to achieve 6 months rental so it applies to everyone.
BUT litereally no-one will be able to achieve 6 months rental so it applies to everyone.
If a house is empty over half the year... that's low occupancy. You said up the page this doesn't happen much.
[ EDIT: apologies, you said it's "not a problem"... which isn't the same thing. ]
Housing is still much much much cheaper than the national average
Maybe, but the national average is utterly bonkers. If you're anywhere near NMW then it's just completely unaffordable. Absurdly so.
And it's supply and demand, there is nothing intrinsic to the process of stacking bricks up in a neat rows that means a house has to cost so much more than it did 20 years ago.
Teachers? Not only do second home owners pay council tax but it’s now 150% EXTRA in Gwynedd – and that without using the schooling system!
I dont know if that was meant for me or not @sharkbait.
But the inability of teachers to find a home within sensible commuting time of their work leads to a neverending churn of teachers and therefore a drop in educational standards, òr the education authority amalgamate schools to try to solve the problem Which always results in schools closures and job losses etc. In that situation the problem is clearly a shortage in the supply of houses.
IF you can rent your house out for a touch over 6 months of the year then you can pay business rates instead of council tax.
BUT litereally no-one will be able to achieve 6 months rental so it applies to everyone.
Most of your other posts have been reasonable but this is utter bollocks. Plenty of people will be happy to go to North Wales on holiday out of season for the right price.
OK, not Wales, but the tourist season on the islands is April to October which is 6 months and plenty of places get fully booked. We have businesses that cannot open because of staff shortages. We had a new postie that turned up last week, lasted 2 days and went home because there’s no affordable rental properties - a caravan (if you can find one) is £600+/month. The other side of this is that in the winter, lots of places simply shut down, folk sign-on and businesses expect employees not to take holidays in the summer. What has been briefly touched is that it’s not cheap to build housing here either, you’d struggle to build a 80 sq m house for £200k, which is about the same as buying an old 2-bed cottage, which will be cold and cost a fortune to heat, and still above the mortgage threshold for a couple on minimum wage. The only way to solve this is large scale investment from government to build affordable housing - but not like Help to Buy which resulted in lots of overly priced flats in rubbish locations that made property developers billions and owners left with negative equity. I don’t buy the argument about empty properties or rentals owned by non-locals - most of the income doesn’t stay local. Quite a few people do boost their incomes by doing changeovers on rentals at weekends as you can easily earn a grand a month cash-in-hand, but it doesn’t pay for things like public services, roads and infrastructure.
Maybe we could try agreeing on some things instead.
Does everyone think that the Welsh government has mismanaged Wales over the last 50 years?
Does everyone think that everyone on minimum wage in wales should be able to afford to buy a 3 bed semi-detached house close to where they work?
Yes, no for me.
Does everyone think that everyone on minimum wage in wales should be able to afford to buy a 3 bed semi-detached house close to where they work?
My answer to this is yes, yes they should. We all should. But the reality of the way we run our economy means that's just not possible. But what I would say is people in Gwynedd are in a better position than most of the country.
Most of your other posts have been reasonable but this is utter bollocks.
Believe me it's absolutely dead on. (edit: OK marginal exaggeration - it's the case more the vast majority of rentals)
I have good friends who rent out houses and they're all saying it's not possible due to the number of rental properties available - it would mean having your house rented every single day from the beginning of April until the end of September. It's just not going to happen.
But don't get me wrong, I am in favour of this - it should have been done ages ago.
Too many people were dodging paying council tax by running their house as a rental business and paying business rates which, because of the size of the 'business', were £zero!
Those that did have to pay rates paid less than the normal (100%) council tax and this money didn't even go to the county council - it went to straight to Cardiff so it didn't benefit the local area.
(and don't get me started on the compensation the WG paid out to some 'businesses' because of Drakefords lockdown policy!!)
So now that the occupancy level has been increased many people will pay council tax instead - which I'm in favour of. But if the WG hadn't made it so easy to game the system they would have been taking more money long ago.
I have good friends who rent out houses and they’re all saying it’s not possible due to the number of rental properties available – it would mean having your house rented every single day from the beginning of April until the end of September. It’s just not going to happen.
It's perfectly possible at the right price. I'm happy to rent outside that window but I'm not prepared to pay high season rates. I had a week in Friog in March with friends that felt pricy at £500. A few years ago we rented a place up from Bets-y-Coed at £300 for the week. It's now doubled in price so we looked elsewhere.
We are talking about a tourism tax here (on overnight stays), not the additional council tax for 2nd home owners. Presumably, it doesn't count if you own the property!