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Same here. My sister lives in central London. Whenever I go down, I arrive clutching a list of ‘stuff I want to do while I’m here’. which will be a list of all the galleries I want to visit and which exhibitions I want to go and see. I’ll have my route around the City mapped out so I can fit it all in. Our kid comes with me, invariably loves it as she always comments ‘we never do anything like this’.
Good job I'm Northern and understand that you don't actually have a child with your sister....
On the second homes issue, my cousin lives in Cornwall (she married a bloke from down there) and the tourist hotspot she lives in she says is absolutely deserted now at some times of year. You can walk through the village in the evening and there are no lights on at all and absolutely nobody around. Just empty second homes. This means that the local businesses are unsustainable and most have closed (which doesn’t impact the second home owners as they went to Waitrose en route and got everything they need for the week). Obviously it also impacts the schools (no pupils as nobody lives there year-round any more), and hospitals and other public services as the place is either absolutely rammed in the holidays, then like a ghost town at other times
Interesting. Weren't Londoners buying up property in the West Country to enable them to WFH? And those who already had second homes were living in them permanently and WFH? Confused!
You are indeed blessed then.
Sush, adults talking.
Interesting. Weren’t Londoners buying up property in the West Country to enable them to WFH? And those who already had second homes were living in them permanently and WFH?
That would appear to have been wishful thinking on most peoples behalf and things have very much reverted back to the pre-lockdown status quo. A lot of rural places also have broadband equivalent to using a 56k modem.
And yet the local pubs etc will be full of tourists buying food and drink every night…
Certainly that’s the case whenever we go on holiday in the UK somewhere rural.
Who works in these pubs though. Where do they live? How do they pay their mortgage or £££££ rent? Gone are the days when you can staff up with Eastern Europeans happy to hot-bunk in a shipping container at the bottom of the pub garden.
Binners +1
Outside of the school holidays that apparently thriving local pub probably ends up laying off all the staff and shuts 4 days a week because half the village it served is empty.
Compounded by a double whammy of the fact an over reliance of tourism means that all the people also laid off from the climbing wall, surf shop, tea room, bike shop, etc etc for 8 months don't have the income to spend in the pub either.
And tourists simply don't have the same needs as locals so it creates conflicts. I used to live overlooking a car park that could have 500+ cars parked in it in summer, all spending money in the tea rooms, buying stuff in the gift shop, etc etc. It was still a 2 mile* walk if I wanted to catch a bus to collage though. Because despite being busier than the average town center, none of that actually benefits people just living there.
*varied, depending on the year the secondary school (mini) bus would adjust it's route so it might pass the house, or it might be a mile, or it might be me left to make my own way.
During the pandemic people were worried if tourism would recover when we went back to normal. This is hardly going to help is it?
We worried for about 2 weeks then it became clear that Pembrokeshire was going to be massively full, under-resourced and manic for every summer from now on.
So taking a few quid off each visitor to help towards emptying bins, cleaning beaches, opening toilets (all things that the cronically under-funded council should be doing but can't) it fine with me. It really REALLY won't even register as a cost to the vast majority of visitors. People on holiday pay for stuff without question, especially if it is just added to their accomodation fee at point of transaction.
I've paid it in France without even knowing about it until the reciept comes and it's really ok.
Your rant loses points for not calling him 'Dripford' like all the other mad folk in the WalesOnline comments.
Who works in these pubs though. Where do they live?
Indeed. Go to somewhere like Keswick and every single pub, bar and restaurant is advertising for staff. There aren't any because nobody can afford to live there any more. And you can't travel from outside the area as there is no public transport. So these places are reducing their opening hours or shutting completely as they simply don't have the staff to run a business. They used to be able to when Pēteris from Latvia used to live in a static caravan in the garden, but him and his mates all went back home for some reason.
The bottom line is that the second home/Air BnB model is changing the nature of whole places or in some case now rendering parts of the economy completely unsustainable
People astonished that Manchester is a tourist draw, why do you seem proud to be so ****ing clueless?
I’d be happy paying an extra couple of quid if it meant I could smash the place up a bit.
Actual LOL.
Complimentary cans of Red Bull in every hotel room?
Indeed. Go to somewhere like Keswick and every single pub, bar and restaurant is advertising for staff. There aren’t any because nobody can afford to live there an more. And you can’t travel from outside the area as there is no public transport. So these places are reducing their opening hours or shutting completely as they simply don’t have the staff to run a business.
Same in Hawes. Cocket's website says "Now closed for the winter, and will not be re-opening in 2023". It's not for a lack of summer trade, they've just had chef vacancies that they've not been able to fill for over a year.
There aren’t any because nobody can afford to live there any more.
Mate of mine lectures at the college in Ambleside and none of the lecturers can afford to live there.
Yeah but no.
It’s kind of hard to feel sorry for second home owners and parasite landlords to be honest. Good on Wales gov for introducing the tax.
The housing in Wales is some of the cheapest in the country. Bar a few prime locations there's plenty of cheap available housing for sale.
I don't whine that I can't afford a house in Mayfair however.
This is a load of crap driven by the Plaid Cymru types - Wales going back to it's English-hating 1970's/80's roots.
The poverty-wages are a problem in Wales - moreso than places closer than cities. But that makes tourism more important in Wales (especially rural and coastal) than in most of the rest of blighty. So hitting bnb owners (which own a really small proportion of properties) does nothing at all - and has spill (like people who've had a family home in wales since the 1960's and go there every weekend) which is unfair.
You can't spot-tax your way out of a systemic housing issue. And I'd argue there isn't a housing issue in Wales - there's an affordability issue because of wages - but there's no jobs here because business loves cities in this economy. But first time buyers who want to live in "Mayfair" (or Abersoch) - you know what, tough titties.
The house I live in now, in North Wales, was on the market for over two years. Nobody was interested. That fact still hasn't stopped a handful of plaid-cymru idiots making their feelings known about "the english" buying properties in the area stopping "locals" from buying. (I'm Welsh).
I was forced to go for a walk along the coast when I was last in Pembs. They talked me into it by saying we can have pints in a little pub at the end. When we got there, there was a sign on the door saying ‘closed due to no staff’. I was not bloody happy. Broken Britain.
Bar a few prime locations there’s plenty of cheap available housing for sale.
No, not really. If you happen to be from a small seaside town, your wages are low, but the houses are priced well out of your league. The average house price in Wales is heavily skewed by the cheap houses in e.g. the Valleys, but that's no good if you're from Cardigan.
This is a load of crap driven by the Plaid Cymru types – Wales going back to it’s English-hating 1970’s/80’s roots.
As opposed to the sunlit uplands of the later John Redwood era?
What damage does a holiday rental do to a community in reality?
It means your village of 500 people is now a village of 100 old people and 400 tourists. You don't see a problem?
The poverty-wages are a problem in Wales – moreso than places closer than cities. But that makes tourism more important in Wales (especially rural and coastal) than in most of the rest of blighty.
Don't you think tourism might be driving down wages?
When we got there, there was a sign on the door saying ‘closed due to no staff’. I was not bloody happy. Broken Britain.
Had the same experience in Dent, Yorkshire at the weekend.
“Come and improve your English and spend a year or two in our beautiful countryside, you might want to stay”
YOU’RE BARRED. [ pub now open half as many hours for locals and tourists alike ]
It means your village of 500 people is now a village of 100 old people and 400 tourists.
And some weeks just the 100 old people and a lot of empty houses
But first time buyers who want to live in “Mayfair” (or Abersoch) – you know what, tough titties.
London has a similar very serious problem. Not just in Mayfair, but all over it. However the cheaper parts of London are easily accessible from Mayfair. Abersoch is a fair old trek from say Blaenau Ffestiniog where the cheap houses might be. You don't see an issue if you're forced to move away from your family?
The issue is that actual communities are being broken up by the force of other people's money.
The problem with Abersoch is also the hit that the economies of Wilmslow and Alderley Edge have to take every weekend
So hitting bnb owners (which own a really small proportion of properties) does nothing at all
You seem to have ignored all the airbnb etc and second homes owned rather more recently.
And I’d argue there isn’t a housing issue in Wales – there’s an affordability issue because of wages
Wages or overpriced houses?
The house I live in now, in North Wales, was on the market for over two years. Nobody was interested.
Any idea why? Simply undesirable or that it wasnt affordable?
So hitting bnb owners (which own a really small proportion of properties) does nothing at all
BnB / Hotel owners are living and working there, probably making full-time employment at least for themselves and if it's a hotel a whole range of staff (chefs, front of house, bar, cleaners, etc).
An Air BnB pays a cleaner for 2 hours a week whilst the income probably goes to someone hundreds of miles away.
A 2nd home is pretty much economically inactive most of the week/year.
Which is why the 2nd home tax is huge and the visitor tax is £2. And why the 2nd home tax is levied at those with low occupancy rates.
And some weeks just the 100 old people and a lot of empty houses
Weeks? Try half the winter.
Which means the local shop which made ends meet on 500 people now closes.
Which means the school, and the well paid teaching jobs with it, now close and leave.
(etc).
Would that by any chance be during the 6 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks at Easter, half term etc?
Nope!
Don't have kids, so always holiday out of season e.g. we were walking around the Lakes last November and it was still packed in Keswick etc.
@matt_outandabout - I posted on the previous page about my cousins experience in Cornwall, who has watched this exact thing happen. In the winter the place is a ghost town. The houses are all in darkness, the place completely deserted and all the local businesses and schools have closed
Mate of mine lectures at the college in Ambleside and none of the lecturers can afford to live there
That's really the fault of the National Park (understandably) restricting the ability to build houses in the Lake District.
You have a completely artificial limit on supply, but not demand and then wonder why prices are so high.
And, also I suspect the college lecturer salaries are barely above minimum wage...
The poverty-wages are a problem in Wales – moreso than places closer than cities. But that makes tourism more important in Wales (especially rural and coastal) than in most of the rest of blighty.
Yep - hospitality in the UK runs mainly on minimum wage jobs. So unless you have an endless supply of temporary workers happy to work for a pittance, with no intention of setting down, you're a bit screwed in terms of workforce.
However, put the prices of food / hotels up enough to pay, say the National full time mean salary, and you'll have to accept a big drop off in overall bookings as the prices will probably double....
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
Far fewer people than somewhere like say, Cornwall, which is one of the best things about it.
The rough figures which appear on Google are 'over 5 million' to Cornwall. Wikipedia states that Conwy alone had 9.39 million visitors in 2018. I'm guessing that Cornwall has far fewer daytrip visitors than Wales, so it depends on what you call a tourist. Do the 14.6 million visitors to Cardiff in 2009 count as tourists?
The very obvious reason that Cornwall feels full of tourists is that it's tiny, with narrow roads and small towns, whereas the tourists are more spread out in Wales. And, of course, there are just enough native Cornish to make a cricket team, so everybody else is a tourist, and the county is so small that if they book a holiday they do it somewhere else, unlike Wales where people from south Wales go to north Wales, and so on.
A 2nd home is pretty much economically inactive most of the week/year.
Only if it's not let out, which a lot of them are.
The lady who owns the Abassi restaurant in Betws told us that there are less than 130 permanent residents left.
Pretty much every house in Deiniolen and Dinorwic larger than a terrace has been taken over by second home owners.
Pete's Eats has closed - heard various stories, but lack of tourist custom apparantly not a factor.
First Hydro have closed down their tours and despite the locals asking for a new sports centre or affordable housing, the land will probably end up as a car park.
Despite all this, massive road and infrastructure projects continue. The road surfaces are far superior to those we drive on in Lancashire and the lakefront in Llanberis has been improved beyond recognition.
The lady who owns the Abassi restaurant in Betws told us that there are less than 130 permanent residents left.
Same in the Yorkshire Dales (where we own a second home). Farm consolidation and mechanisation have reduced the number of farming jobs and made some no longer viable eg far fewer dairy herds than there used to be. Young people move away for Uni and jobs. Their parents stay behind and the villages slowly become retirement complexes. Unless you work on a farm or run a B&B, there aren't really any jobs for you.
The arrival of Tesco delivery vans down the valley (miles from the nearest store), pretty much killed off the village shop, which had been going downhill slowly for decades. Sells bugger all now and only open part time in summer. Used to be 365 days a year back in the day....
Only if it’s not let out, which a lot of them are.
If they actually are, then they're not caught by the 2nd home tax, which is what it's seemingly setting out to do.
Unless you work on a farm or run a B&B, there aren’t really any jobs for you.
The jobs are there, but there aren't the people
in Hawes. Cocket’s website says “Now closed for the winter, and will not be re-opening in 2023”. It’s not for a lack of summer trade, they’ve just had chef vacancies that they’ve not been able to fill for over a year.
Farm consolidation and mechanisation have reduced the number of farming jobs and made some no longer viable eg far fewer dairy herds than there used to be. Young people move away for Uni and jobs
It's true that there aren't many jobs in farming, but young people ARE being priced out of their home villages even if they can find jobs. What's needed, of course, is ways to create high quality jobs as well as create affordable property. If there'd been a startup tech company in some small part of mid wales when I was starting out I'd have been there like a shot.
The jobs are there, but there aren’t the people
Nothing like there used to be - real jobs with a career / profession etc, rather than low paid hospitality work, where you're expecting to work all hours and all days for not much more than minimum wage.
What’s needed, of course, is ways to create high quality jobs as well as create affordable property.
Yep.
Although very difficult to achieve as the current trend is for geographic consolidation around specialist areas eg automotive in the midlands, bio science in Oxbridge, Finance in the City. The consolidation offers efficiency savings and the ability to easily exchange resources and expertise.
No one has figured out how to undo that, as there are so many natural advantages in consolidation.
In fact, the current trend (from HMG) is to throw resources at it, to try and grow it to boost GDP.
Pete’s Eats has closed
😔
My first drink of the day, every day, is a pint of tea in a Pete's Eats mug.
I've done this to death on another forum, and people brought a lot of actual figures / demographics / home ownership stats / business investment figures and income figures, so I'm not going to repeat the loop (but feel free) - but just a few things:
No, not really. If you happen to be from a small seaside town, your wages are low, but the houses are priced well out of your league. The average house price in Wales is heavily skewed by the cheap houses in e.g. the Valleys, but that’s no good if you’re from Cardigan.
If you're young and you happen to be from a small seaside town your primary problem is that there's no bloody jobs but tourism - like the rest of the country you have to leave Wales to get a decent job on a decent wage. And that's not because of any other reason than businesses want a large pool of talent to choose from - which is why Google doesn't base itself in Pwlhelli.
Tourism is a marvellous lifeline. If it wasn't for tourism there'd be no jobs at all (bar farming).
Have you seen Banshees of Inisherin? It's not far off that.
That's not the fault of the (vanishingly small number of) second home or AirBNB owners. That's because it's Wales and in the capitalist economy there simply aren't any jobs because business won't locate there. That's capitalism - if you want to change that paradigm, then you change capitalism - not spot-tax people.
What there is is plenty of cheap and available housing though. You might not to get live right on the beach in your gorgeous picture-postcard village, but a within a couple of miles there's whole streets of houses at 1/3rd of the average house price for the UK.
Remind me again, why don't they live there instead of whining that they can't live in "Mayfair"?
Don’t you think tourism might be driving down wages?
No. Tourism provides the ONLY wages. Because there's no other bloody jobs.
I work from home. I have spent 30 years galavanting all over the country living in two different cities and doing jobs based in 3 different cities to get my job. Now I'm "privileged" (if privilege means worked my arse off to get it) to have this job. So I've moved back to Wales - to a small village in North Wales. As I said - my house. Empty for years. Cheap as chips. No locals moving in. I move in and locals start grumbling.
They can get in the sea tbh. Or move somewhere else and get a bloody job like the rest of the country has to do. Life isn't fair, but there's a lot of people in rural wales who'd rather sit in their pants complaining about "the english" ruining their lives than getting off their arses and doing what is necessary to go get a job, like the rest of the country has to.
As I said again. Am Welsh, live here. Can see what's happening with my own eyes.
Yes, millionaires own property in Abersoch. If they didn't it'd be a hole like any other seaside town - because there's no jobs but tourism there and if there wasn't tourism there wouldn't be ANY jobs.
On Pete's Eats:
Oh that’s sad news.
Not because he wasn't making money. I hear it's because he can't get the staff because nobody will work for him any more.
Read into that what you will.
Apparently if you have a spare six hundred grand you can buy the cafe.
Oh woe is Wales and it's poor poor tourism-only industry.
@matt_outandabout:
Weeks? Try half the winter.
Which means the local shop which made ends meet on 500 people now closes.
Which means the school, and the well paid teaching jobs with it, now close and leave.
(etc).
That's not because of a handful of people owning second homes. "Tourist towns" are thriving in North Wales - try getting a parking space in Betws Y Coed in January for example.
You can go to any number of pubs on the beach in Trearddur Bay in Feb and there's plenty of very cheap property a ten minute bike ride away. (Same for anywhere on Anglesey).
Barring places like Abersoch - which would be absolutely dead all year round if it wasn't for tourism and second home owners - there's plenty going on.
The issue is jobs. Not second home ownership. There's no jobs, because businesses don't want to locate here. Cities are where it's at.
Wales isn't full of well-paid jobs but shockingly high house-prices that even the well-paid locals can't afford. It's the opposite - there's no jobs, and houses are generally very very cheap.
If there’d been a startup tech company in some small part of mid wales when I was starting out I’d have been there like a shot.
But they'd locate where the best and brightest are? If they're a startup tech company and they DON'T locate in a city, then you have to ask yourself what the directors are smoking.
"Hey, I've a great idea. We need the best and brightest talent".
"Trawsfynned m8. There's a lake, a small hamlet and about 2000 sheep".
"Cool. Do you think they know python?"
That’s not because of a handful of people owning second homes. “Tourist towns” are thriving in North Wales – try getting a parking space in Betws Y Coed in January for example.
The problem is that the tourists change all the time, they aren't the same people all year round. So it's not a community.
D'oh! (slight comparison)
Actually, it is also happening in Borneo too. Tourists are taxed equivalent of £2 per room per night.
Well, over there the purpose is to tax Chinese tourists because they have loads of money!
Effective 1st September 2017, foreign tourists will be charged a flat rate of RM10 per room per night for all Tourism Tax (TTx)
I have a feeling in future we might need to apply for travel permits in order to visit different cities or counties etc ... arrggghhh ... cash cows etc.
The problem is that the tourists change all the time, they aren’t the same people all year round. So it’s not a community.
So, it's not the same as it was 200 years ago when everyone was a sheep farmer?
Even in the 18th Century Betws was a tourist town, reliant on rich people coming in and staying at the hotels. Trefiw had a paddle-steamer port - they'd sail up the river Conwy and get taken by horse and carriage to hotels.
Boo-hoo! There's no jobs.
It's not second-home owners. They could all leave, and if it wasn't for the tourism all that would be left is cobwebs and empty houses. Banning second-home-owners wouldn't magic up the jobs that the kids need.
These places are alive in part because of second home owners. My house, and many of the houses in the village I live in, would be empty if it wasn't for people like me who can work from home, or people running holiday let businesses.
It's pretty bloody difficult to have a "community" when there's nobody there any more.
The issue is jobs. Not second home ownership. There’s no jobs, because businesses don’t want to locate here. Cities are where it’s at.
Except as pointed out throughout this thread, with examples, there are jobs. However we've reached a point where there are so many under-occupied 2nd homes and buy-to-let AirB&B's that there's no locals left to fill them.
You said it yourself:
It’s pretty bloody difficult to have a “community” when there’s nobody there any more.
And without some form of community North Wales would just be Liverpool with hills.
It’s pretty bloody difficult to have a “community” when there’s nobody there any more.
Wow. You think second homes aren't the issue then you end on this? I don't know where to start but your experiences are compelely different to the reality of life in Pembrokeshire. People want to live here and want to be able to afford a house near where they work but they can't...because they are priced out of the market.
The only reason we're able to afford to live in Pembroke is because we bought in 2003.
Some good points CC, but why do the tourists have to stay in the housing stock? Campsites, pubs, B&B’s would all be better. And locals working in the tourism trade could live in the houses (if they weren’t priced out so would require some sort of control) and form a community… total madness I realise. Just back of a fag packet idle dreaming.
Except as pointed out throughout this thread, with examples, there are jobs
One low paid hospitality job in Hawes.
Hardly a conclusive argument.
Some good points CC, but why do the tourists have to stay in the housing stock? Campsites, pubs, B&B’s would all be better.
Pubs and B&Bs are potential housing stock, they could be re-allocated to house all the unemployed locals...
So people are saying there's a problem affecting them, and chevychase is denying the existence of a problem because it's not affecting him?
So people are saying there’s a problem affecting them, and chevychase is denying the existence of a problem because it’s not affecting him?
Woudln't be the first time the wrong cause is blamed for a real problem though..
Far easier to blame newcomers / second home owners than to come to terms with the fact no one has a clue how to provide decent jobs for remote bits of Wales and probably never will have...
Tourism is all they've got and all they're probably going to have.
I often wonder why these second homes aren’t vandalised during the winter when there’s literally nobody there. Then I remember it’s because there’s literally nobody there. All the yoof have been priced out to Swansea. 😁
No. Tourism provides the ONLY wages. Because there’s no other bloody jobs.
There’s no jobs,
Welsh Government beg to differ it seems:
https://statswales.gov.wales/Catalogue/Business-Economy-and-Labour-Market/People-and-Work/Employment/Jobs/Whole-Workforce/workplaceemployment-by-industry-area
I often wonder why these second homes aren’t vandalised during the winter when there’s literally nobody there.
Reminds me of the great NTNON Welsh tourism ad...
Come home to a real fire, buy a cottage in Wales
Welsh Government beg to differ it seems:
Well that's that sorted then.
Loads of well paying jobs so the locals just need to get one and then they can afford to buy all the second homes back from the foreigners at market rates.
And no need for a tourism tax!
* Thread closed *
Tourism is all they’ve got and all they’re probably going to have.
Why? Does it have to be that way?
Well that’s that sorted then.
I made a sweeping generalisation in response to a couple of other sweeping generalisations.
One low paid hospitality job in Hawes.
Hardly a conclusive argument.
You can't get Chefs to work anywhere in Wensleydale at the moment, some are even offering bed and board to try and get people to commute:
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Well, if they will advertise with foreign job titles... that's not what we voted for!
😉
You can’t get Chefs to work anywhere in Wensleydale at the moment, some are even offering bed and board to try and get people to commute:
Supply and demand, post Brexit, more jobs than Chefs so they can pick and choose where to work....
Wenslydale needs to up it's wages to compete.
Tourism is all they’ve got and all they’re probably going to have.
Why? Does it have to be that way?
Economics.
Why on earth would anyone relocate well paying high tech jobs to a sparsely populated low skill area?
Governments have been wrestling with this problem since the 80s, they've offered subsidies which worked a bit, but none have really stuck and created any momentum. Mean while all the well paying jobs coalesce under gravity to their current geographic centers of gravity.
No idea what the answer is, but it's not a simple problem to fix.
Tourism is all they’ve got and all they’re probably going to have.
Why on earth would anyone relocate well paying high tech jobs to a sparsely populated low skill area?
You really hate the locals don't you?
You really hate the locals don’t you?
Not at all.
But I can see the reality and I understand the economics of the situation.
Like I say, people have been trying to fix this since the 80s and the end of heavy industry in Wales and no one has found a solution....
But if you have a solution, I'm all ears....
Could they not build a high speed rail line into London? 😂
Why on earth would anyone relocate well paying high tech jobs to a sparsely populated low skill area?
I would love to work in tech if it was WFH on a laptop in a remote part of Wales. Or maybe set up a small factory for making bike framesets. Or a factory somewhere reaaaally remote for making LSD, if we're talking about reviving old industries. Minimal environmental impact and probably quite good margins.
a lab supplying 100 countries with half a billion pounds of drugs, Bob Dylan and Jimi Hendrix partying with farmers in Tregaron - when rural Wales produced 60% of the world's LSD
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/news-opinion/extraordinary-story-welsh-lsd-ring-12802907
@molgrips:
Why? Does it have to be that way?
You persuade google, microsoft, HSBC, Barclays or any of the major energy companies and the like to up sticks from their cities and move to rural wales where there's not enough bloody people then.
Until then, that's the reality. Tourism and farming. End. Of - and what do you expect with hills and fields? It's a tourism and farming economy. If you want a job - you go where the bloody job is. End of.
@matt_outandabout - have you actually looked at that link? Farming, mining, tourism and jobs that support tourism. There's NO BLOODY JOBS!
But there are LOADS of houses. Cheap cheap houses. They're not all in idylic tourist spots - but I refer you to the fact that I'd really love a house in Mayfair or Park Lane, but bloody millionaires own them.
I used to live in Nottingham and my job was in Sheffield or London. That's quite the commute. People seem to think they've got some god-given right to live in some pretty rural village, perhaps with a nice harbour. But the vast majority of the country don't live this way - they get off their arses and commute to work - or move cities to find jobs that pay well.
Right or wrong this is the economy we live in. Precious few "good" jobs are in Wales. Plenty of "tourism" jobs - because that's wales.
And there are lots and lots, and LOTS of cheap houses in Wales. Just not in the welsh versions of Mayfair or Park Lane - which are a tiny amount of the land mass.
Second home owners are NOT the problem.
Until then, that’s the reality. Tourism and farming. End. Of
maybe LSD too
Incidentally, this is a European wide problem, Italy and France are both wrestling with the same problem.
The Gillet Jaune protests were originally triggered by the "Paysage" feeling left behind economically by the cities...
Europe is going through a urbanisation phase where people, skills and resources are migrating towards the cities, leaving the countryside hollowed out.
I would love to work in tech if it was WFH on a laptop in a remote part of Wales
The thing is, if you're a start up or an expanding company, you want to be where you have access to the largest pool of talent and that means basically opening an office next door to your competitor. Sure, they'll be a load of talent who will be happy to work remotely from mid Wales, but as an employer you want them mingling with all your competitors employees so your pool of talent has all the latest ideas etc.
This is why you get industry based gravity which creates hubs of industry specific talent which just keep growing....
jameso,
I'd like to apply for the position of quality control tester at your LSD superlab in rural wales. I have vast experience, and a cracking record collection.
But there are LOADS of houses. Cheap cheap houses. They’re not all in idylic tourist spots – but I refer you to the fact that I’d really love a house in Mayfair or Park Lane, but bloody millionaires own them.
Except if you want a Chef in Mayfair, they can get the tube from somewhere (relatively) affordable in 20 minutes. If you want a Chef (or any tourism economy at all) in Wensleydale you can't expect them to commute from Middlesbrough. The two aren't comparable scenarios at all.
I'm not debating whether Alphabet should build a new AI campus at Ribblehead, I'm talking about existing jobs going unfilled because kids going to the local school and wanting to go into the farming or tourism jobs and stay local can't afford to.
If you want a job – you go where the bloody job is. End of.
Are you competing with Suella Braverman for 2023's bastard of the year?
Look, just because you have no clue about the problems of rural communities and don't give enough of a shit to find out, doesn't mean no-one else does. There is so, so much you just don't get, you're probably better off just keeping quiet at this point.
Sure, they’ll be a load of talent who will be happy to work remotely from mid Wales
If you are set up for people to work remotely they could be in Mid Wales or Mayfair it wouldn't matter.
We worried for about 2 weeks then it became clear that Pembrokeshire was going to be massively full, under-resourced and manic for every summer from now on.
So taking a few quid off each visitor to help towards emptying bins, cleaning beaches, opening toilets (all things that the cronically under-funded council should be doing but can’t) it fine with me. It really REALLY won’t even register as a cost to the vast majority of visitors. People on holiday pay for stuff without question, especially if it is just added to their accomodation fee at point of transaction.
I’ve paid it in France without even knowing about it until the reciept comes and it’s really ok.Your rant loses points for not calling him ‘Dripford’ like all the other mad folk in the WalesOnline comments.
Your rant loses points for not realising I was referring to the proposed increase to business rates for those running holiday homes. The tourism tax is neither here nor there, if as you say its a few quid for each visitor. No issue with that. But imposing a almost impossible occupancy target on holiday homes and a huge hike in business rates is way over the top and shows up the government for what they really are. Incompetent and cowardly bottle jobs who ran out of rational decent ideas years ago and who now resort to the blame game.
I'm all for the tax as long as it's genuinely going to be used to improve the area it is raised in. Asking a lot I know but you can hope! That's said as a South Wales local who holidays up North Wales regularly.
If the welsh government can raise more revenue through taxing visitors that sounds like it could be helpful. It might offset the loss in support for some projects that Wales has suffered as a consequence of the U.K. leaving the EU.
To folks’ point, while it’ll add an overhead, it could increase enthusiasm for such a tax if projects it supported were marked as such: ‘tourism tax at work’
All the locals hate those EU signs everywhere, they always say that all the EU paid for eas the bloody sign then took all the credit for that project. The same will most likely happen to any "Tourist Tax Spent Here" signs too.
I know Solva well. Have family in the area so visit often. Yeah, fair point, it is nice around there and always crawling with tourists in the summer. Especially if you’re into outdoors stuff.
We had a family holiday cottage for well over 4 decades, just up from the harbour opposite the Royal George. Loved it there with all the outdoors stuff all around. Even now, 20 years after it was sold, some of the locals recognize me whenever I go back. Haven't been back there for 5 years, might have to rectify that this year!
If you want a job – you go where the bloody job is. End of.
As a welshman born and raised in a rural bit of Mid Wales who has a job in Bristol but cannot afford to live there that is overly simplistic. I would love to live and work back where I grew up but house prices are astronomical and jobs poorly paid, basically not an option. That's not even in a really rural bit of Wales either, the situation in places around Rhayader, Dolgellau etc is worse but that's more to do with the quality of the jobs and poor wages. Even the cheap houses are unaffordable when you can't secure a mortgage or build up a deposit.
I’m not debating whether Alphabet should build a new AI campus at Ribblehead, I’m talking about existing jobs going unfilled because kids going to the local school and wanting to go into the farming or tourism jobs and stay local can’t afford to.
Yes they can. There's *LOADS* of cheap housing. And loads of kids in the tourist industry (on good wages too - it's not all minimum wage stuff).
But there's NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE to want to fill those chef roles. If they want to stay local, they're limited in their jobs - but there's plenty of housing. If they want a job that isn't farming or tourism then they have to move to the city. Just like everybody else.
It's not second-home-owner's fault that there's not enough jobs, and it's a LIE that there's not enough affordable housing. Welsh housing - outside of the mayfair-honeypots - is both plentiful and cheap cheap cheap.
Look, just because you have no clue about the problems of rural communities and don’t give enough of a shit to find out, doesn’t mean no-one else does. There is so, so much you just don’t get, you’re probably better off just keeping quiet at this point.
Just because you can't read that I live in a rural community in Wales and clearly understand the problems on my doorstep better than you do maybe that means you'd be better off "keeping quiet" for once, eh?
maybe LSD too
Funny you should say that. It was a bad day yesterday, I have a field, and I have an interest in "fungal microscopy", so some orders may have been made 😉
Governments have been wrestling with this problem since the 80s
Have they? Have they really?
Fatcha closed down all the mines and heavy industries in Wales and the north in the early 80’s without giving flying **** if anything replaced them or not, or what happened to the millions of newly unemployed
The term they used was ‘managed decline’, though there didn’t look like there was much managing going on from where I was watching, unless you class the easy availability of heroine
Have you any specific examples of this wrestling going on? Because I can’t think of any other than the odd token gesture
The only ‘solution’ on offer to anyone was, as Norman Tebbit pointed out, to ‘get on your bike’
That’s worked out well for everyone, hasn’t it? So now a broom cupboard in some knife-strewn hell-hole in the outskirts of London costs 7 squillion pounds a month to rent and in other places in the country you can’t give houses away because there are no jobs within a 50 mile radius
Hurray for free-market capitalism
@reluctantjumper:
As a welshman born and raised in a rural bit of Mid Wales who has a job in Bristol but cannot afford to live there that is overly simplistic. I would love to live and work back where I grew up but house prices are astronomical and jobs poorly paid, basically not an option. That’s not even in a really rural bit of Wales either, the situation in places around Rhayader, Dolgellau etc is worse but that’s more to do with the quality of the jobs and poor wages. Even the cheap houses are unaffordable when you can’t secure a mortgage or build up a deposit.
I don't think that's simplistic - I think you're actually agreeing with me. No jobs in Dol, Rhayader, etc. There's housing there that's cheap - but still unnafordable because there's no decent jobs to build up a mortgage or a deposit. But the fact is the houses are still cheaper than the rest of the UK. i.e. it's not the housing, it's the jobs.
People need to stop seeing themselves as victims. If you can't afford a mortgage or a house then it's because your job (if you have one) doesn't pay. If you want a job that pays, you have to go where the jobs are. If you do that, then you can afford a mortgage - and if you're wedded to a particular area that you love, that has no jobs, then it's likely the houses are cheaper so if, in the future, after you've done your hard work, you can potentially move back there.
This is what I did. 30 years of graft. Now can work from home in rural wales. But people moan that they can't get a house - but don't want to do the graft.
To flog the dead horse: It's not second-home owners making housing unaffordable. Housing is cheap. But even cheap housing is unaffordable if you've not got a decent job.
That's why kids leave Wales in droves. We can feel how we feel about it - but that's the reality. The answer is "reform capitalism and how we see work, home ownership, community, consumption and our very values" - but we won't be doing that any time soon, so the workshy or graft-less will moan about second home owners whilst not doing the perfectly achieveable - actually getting on with and improving their own lives.
Have you any specific examples of this wrestling going on?
Yep, there have been lots of subsidies to industry to open factories in South Wales, over the years..
There was even an allocation in the Kwasi's first / last / only budget: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/funds-to-create-pioneering-south-wales-industrial-cluster
But fundamentally, it's pushing water upstream with a fork.
If you have a good reason for industry to up sticks from a high density, high skill area and move to a low skill, low density area, you should tell the Welsh Government...
What tends to happen is they take the money, open something small and then close it once the subsidy runs out.
@binners:
That’s worked out well for everyone, hasn’t it? So now a broom cupboard in some knife-strewn hell-hole in the outskirts of London costs 7 squillion pounds a month to rent and in other places in the country you can’t give houses away because there are no jobs within a 50 mile radius
Hurray for free-market capitalism
You also agree with me 🙂
I also agree with you, with a couple of caveats. 1) The mines were crap jobs that needed to close. They're awful for everyone's health. It's a shame we exported that pain though. 2) the people who "got on their bikes" tended to do better. More power to the people who accepted the new reality and did something about it other than moan.
Capitalism sucks. 100%. We don't have to arrange the world like this - but we do.
But also 100% - it's not second home owners is it. 🙂
1) The mines were crap jobs that needed to close. They’re awful for everyone’s health. It’s a shame we exported that pain though.
I can recommend Germinal by Émile Zola, if you want to be really depressed.
Mind you, the horses had it worst, when Etienne first descended into a mine he was surprised to see a horse in there and asked how they got it in and out (they didn't, came in as a foal, left in a corner as a rotting carcass once it's finished).
I’d like to apply for the position of quality control tester at your LSD superlab in rural wales.
Just watch out for birdwatchers called Julie.
But the fact is the houses are still cheaper than the rest of the UK. i.e. it’s not the housing, it’s the jobs.
No - its the housing. Average wage will still struggle to buy a decent house in large parts of the UK. My flat was 2.5 times salary 30 years ago - now its worth ten times salary for a equivalent job. Housing is unaffordable for large swathes of the population. Rentals are stupid high as well - but have gone up less than the cost of a house.
Second home owners pricing locals out of the market has effects beyond the honeypot areas in putting up prices
Yet another money grab by the Welsh government..... But this is one that I approve of.
If they don't apply it to camp/caravan sites I'll be mightily pissed.
Obvs N Wales will see nothing of the money as it's funneled down to S Wales.
I'll come clean and say that I do have a second home there - it was bought by my M&D back in 1979 and I have inherited it.
Over the years we have paid in far, far more than the miniscule amount we have taken out in the way of council tax and yet they seem to think that I deserve to pay triple council tax.
Our house, along with countless thousands others, were built as [and given planning permission as] holiday homes. And yet we're the bad guys.
I can't afford it and will ultimately have to sell bringing and end to over 50 years of our families association with the place that is more "home" than my house in England.
I'd understand more if they had a plan for the money they're raising.
It started off as a way to create local affordable homes for 'local' people but when they finally realised that locals don't actually want to stay there, as the jobs are elsewhere, they changed to reason to being because of the homeless numbers that increased during Drakefords rediculous brainwashing and extended lockdowns.
The truth is the money will just head into the WG coffers for pissing away on useless projects in S Wales.
I've always thought there should be a tourist tax - it's common all over the world - I wish them luck with it.
Edit: just seen the proposals and there's no plan to touch campsites or caravan/motorhome parks. What a joke.
Plaid Cymru clearly don't want to piss off the farmers who fill the fields with tents and caravans. They really are f*****g useless.
I'll sell my house, buy a massive chalet and pay nothing to be there.