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WG are planning to allow local authorities to impose a tourism tax - a few quid levy placed on people who visit Wales and presumably stay overnight. They say it's to help pay for the impact of tourism. Some people are complaining saying it'll drive people away.
I can see the point - rural communities are being severely damaged by tourism - but on the other hand, the tourists already bring in loads of money anyway. If they simply levied a tax on accommodation providers they'd pass it onto their guests anyway, they'd have to.
Would you be put off visiting if your hotel invoice had 'Tourism tax: £2' on it?
No but I'd love to see how it's spent.
Infact I'd happily pay more tax if I could see value for money
Wouldn't give a monkey's personally.
Lots of European towns do this don't they? Sure I've had it in Spain and Portugal in the past?
Love Wales (well bits of it). Off there to supervise the mini-dwellers at a week of sailing in the summer. That'll be my fourth North Wales stay away trip in 3 years. £25 of tourist tax is less than a takeaway curry or pizza meal for the three of us.
There's a similar discussion going on around us - with the same pros and cons.
* What will happen to the extra tax? Will it actually go to help with local issues? What "impact" is it looking to resolve?
* Will the added cost put folk off coming?
* Why is is perfectly normal in other countries and yet such an issue in the UK?
There's so much tourism here that the local economy is struggling to keep up with demand - mainly due to a shortage of low-cost accommodation for the folk working in hotels, catering etc. Guess what - it got a lot worse since Brexit. If the extra tax was going onto workers wages so that they could afford accommodation, which might actually have to be built first, then I could maybe see the point. If it is going to be directed towards more tourist infrastructure then it's not only a total waste, it begins to destroy the very reason folk come here on holiday.
As long as they spend it on things like roads or bypasses to alleviate the traffic caused by people passing through on the M4 on their way to their hols. The people who live in these areas get all the inconveniences but none of the benefit the holidaymakers bring. Try heading West from , say, Bridgend on a Spring / summer Friday evening, especially if the weathers half decent. Absolute nightmare.
I have zero confidence this will be the case though.
Would like to see it introduced here on the Scottish Islands - tourism puts a massive strain on local, publically funded resources. Folks stock-up on the mainland in the supermarkets, rent a cottage from someone who lives elsewhere and we get left with their rubbish and 💩 Monies could be used to build aires for overnight campers with toilets and waste water disposal points, as well as funding rangers who help guide people in how not to trash the place, scare off the wildlife or burn down the forest.
At the end of the day it's just a way of topping up some heavily depleted/inadequate council coffers.
If they don't stick it on tourist tax it will be one of the few other areas they can control like car parking or they'll cut something else because inflation and Covid legacy of disrepair and central funding cuts mean the money they have doesn't go far enough to maintain, let alone enhance, the assets and services they are responsible for.
Plans for this in Manchester as well. A good move in my opinion.
Starts this weekend!
Balls, I'll get taxed for staying overnight in my home city as it's easier than getting a taxi home after a concert ! Oh well, if the money is used correctly, I'm not sure it will.
"rural communities are being severely damaged by tourism"
Living in rural Wales, without tourists there probably wouldn't be much in the way of rural community without them. Especially in this economy.
"At the end of the day it’s just a way of topping up some heavily depleted/inadequate council coffers"
This is the case. And the council'll just waste it on pap, like they always do.
Despite that - I'd potentially be for a 0.5% sales tax, administered every time you use your credit or debit card - if you've not got a welsh postcode then you pay it, if you do, you don't.
However, I remember when they started charging for parking in town centres. It was sold as a panacea, an income source that would transform things. But it didn't - and we all ended up paying for no reason. I suspect this would work out exactly the same.
Tourists are already paying money. We're all already paying taxes. Councils need to cut the awful crap they spend on and start professionalising.
Councils need to cut the awful crap they spend on and start professionalising
I know I'm wasting my breath here but councils are critically underfunded and it's because of Tories. The thing you think is awful crap might be important to someone else.
Saying stuff like that is lazy and quite damaging as everyone just regurgitates it rather than actually investigating what goes on.
Wales, Scotland, Cornwall all good.
MANCHESTER!?
Plans for this in Manchester as well. A good move in my opinion.
Funny. Tourists in Manchester 🙂 yeah right.
Lol.
<edit. WTAF,!
Starts this weekend!
What if I am not a tourist but stay rurally for work? 😉
Plans for this in Manchester as well. A good move in my opinion.
I'm gobsmacked they have tourists!
Last place on earth I'd think about visiting...
Councils need to cut the awful crap they spend on and start professionalising.
Have a look at their expenditure budgets and point out all the 'crap'....
@matt_outandabout Would this be in your local council's area or another council? I suspect making it free for those staying overnight in their own council area would be too costly to implement. If you're in another area then you're using the facilities and should contribute. If £2 a night is going to stop people visiting maybe they shouldn't be holidaying on such a tight budget. (Yes it sounds hard-nosed from a Boomer type but in my early life we didn't holiday more than once every 4 years when the kids were growing up due to funds being tight).
Would you be put off visiting if your hotel invoice had ‘Tourism tax: £2’ on it?
If that's an actual number and not something plucked from imagination then sure, why not.
So long as it's actually going to be used to address tourist impacts and not just to bolster knackered local budgets where really Central government need to stop neglecting regional funding...
@Sandwich - it was a dig at it being called 'tourist tax', rather than 'visitor tax'.
We regularly pay such tax at work when we are in Europe. Interestingly when we are in Slovakia the locals knew where some of the money was going - e.g. one place was keen to show us their new walking paths and cycle route.
Off camping for a race this weekend in not so sunny France, it's going to be a washout.
For three people the tourist tax total is the grand sum of...
Taxe de séjour €2.40
Taxe locale €0.24
€2 per person per night in the Dolomites last week. Happy to pay it; goes towards local services, including subsidising local buses in the valley we were staying in, according to the hotel owner.
I'd like to see it in the Highlands, providing HIE don't get to (mis)manage the funds and communities actually get a say in how the funds are used.
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
Last place on earth I’d think about visiting…
Laugh away… Manchester is the best city to visit in England, and has a bigger tourism industry than any other English city after the economic black hole that is London.
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
Dick.
I can imagine the people that wish to visit Manchester are as insufferable as the people who live there.
You mean young people, don’t you?
I also go to Wales most weekends, only 70 miles - bike heaven, road and MTB. We have a tin box there !
France have been doing it for years, most people don't know they are paying, and those that see it itemised on their quote or invoice don't pay it a moments notice.
Manchester is Ace
Having stayed there a few times when working away, it's quite diverse from a bored wander round the local pubs point of view.
It goes from something like £2.73 a pint and a bit scary as a southern stranger, bars on windows etc, to £6.00 a pint in what feels like safety in a five minute walk.
I can see the point – rural communities are being severely damaged by tourism – but on the other hand, the tourists already bring in loads of money anyway. If they simply levied a tax on accommodation providers they’d pass it onto their guests anyway, they’d have to.
Why not just implement the Chinese 70s style permit travel document between counties? Much easier to control pollution, damage to environment etc. Nobody can travel unless permit is granted.
Would you be put off visiting if your hotel invoice had ‘Tourism tax: £2’ on it?<
Of course not because the purpose of parasites is to suck out the nutrient from the host without causing any damage.
IMO it's the wrong fix for a problem, but that might still be the best option available to the local authorities since they don't have access to the right fix.
Mostly it's just corporatism doing its thing- once upon a time you'd say, it's good for the local economy, it creates jobs, it supports local businesses. But wages shrink, businesses get bigger, having X tourists cause the employment of Y number of bar staff, waiting staff, shop staff just isn't doing the work it used to, those Y staff have less spending power and they spend more of it online and in chain shops. So the localised part has been massively depleted, while the burdens on the local area are the same or worse. It's a model that was never brilliant but increasingly it just doesn't really work.
Add to that immediate negatives like houses going out of owner-occupation or long-term rents and into airbnbs, and all that entails... Like second homes but turbocharged.
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
Far fewer people than somewhere like say, Cornwall, which is one of the best things about it.
jambourgie
Free Member
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
Er, all our Mountaineering Club?
Me and the Mrs, once a month or so.
I love the fact that it has real mountains and doesn't attract the type of middle class tosser who demands a latte every 500 yards.
jamesoz
Full Member
Manchester is AceHaving stayed there a few times when working away, it’s quite diverse from a bored wander round the local pubs point of view.
It goes from something like £2.73 a pint and a bit scary as a southern stranger, bars on windows etc, to £6.00 a pint in what feels like safety in a five minute walk.
Yup.
Ironically, you're safer in the Hare And Hounds on Shudehill than you are in any five minute walk wine bar.
And definitely no bars on any windows in Manchester.
There was a fire once, it was horrific.
* Why is is perfectly normal in other countries and yet such an issue in the UK?
because we are used to paying fairly high taxes and seeing little in return due to constant central government failure?
If the welsh government can raise more revenue through taxing visitors that sounds like it could be helpful. It might offset the loss in support for some projects that Wales has suffered as a consequence of the U.K. leaving the EU.
To folks’ point, while it’ll add an overhead, it could increase enthusiasm for such a tax if projects it supported were marked as such: ‘tourism tax at work’
I had no idea about a Manchester tourist tax.
Neat! It might make up some of the funding shortfall from central government. There do seem to be a lot of visitors in town. I wonder how many venture out to Rochdale, Wigan, and other parts of the combined authority area.
@jamesoz where/when (21st century?) are you going out when you visit? Doesn’t sound like the city centre historic pubs (mentioned on other threads with many opinions if I remember correctly). But The Marble Arch? Peveril of the Peak? The Turk’s Head?. … Nor does that description sound like the western and southern outskirts.
Just before COVID was the last time I stayed. My colleague has a nose for pubs with 'charm' where you might get a lock in or a game of pool with money involved. Was surprised to get copper coins in my change.
Wasn't too much of a walk from the Art gallery/China Town. I think we walked along a canal. Hard to say, some beer was drunk.
We once ended up at a lock in at a pub in some lovely part of Bristol (complete with crackheads outside) as we were working lates. Tried to get a cab back to the digs, but apparently we were 'idiots and not even the Police go to that bit'.
Yes in favour of this and the second home tax. Would like to see all the money spent on cycle paths.
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
Me. Frequently. We’ve Got 2 weeks booked in Solva in June which, as you can see, is a hideous hell-hole…
The Pembrokeshire coast is absolutely stunningly beautiful. I’ll be taking the road bike and pootling about. And in answer to Mols question, I’d have no issue with a tourist tax
it could increase enthusiasm for such a tax if projects it supported were marked as such: ‘tourism tax at work’
Like these?
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We’ve just booked 10 days in a farmhouse in Gwynedd over the summer for a family holiday (6 adults) If it was £2 per person per night then that would be £120 less we would have to spend directly with local businesses.
No doubt most of the revenues generated will be spent on projects in South Wales, with only a pittance coming back to North Wales.
No probs with a tourist tax really. Part of the economy is tourism but that doesn't account for all of the impact it can have and the costs that go with it.
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
Me, bike touring once a year since 2020, some MTB holidays in the past. Us, we go camping there once a year. I love Wales (even more so when the sun's shining, ha). Holidays that don't involve airports and flying are so good.
Manchester's great too - couldn't live in a city these days but visiting was/is always good.
@Russell96 - is there a similar north/south divide to England when it comes to funding? Genuine question.
Do you not think North Wales benefits from tourism to the same degree? We go down to south Wales if we've going for a week or two, as its quite a schlep to get down there, but we go to North Wales all the time. We'll regularly have weekends away in Snowdonia or on the coast. Love the place! Its very different from the South but equally beautiful.
Maybe the tax should be spent in the area its generated, as North Wales would surely generate loads? Climb Snowdon on a summer Saturday and theres thousands of people doing the same. Llandudno and places on the coast are always really busy
Manchester’s great too – couldn’t live in a city these days but visiting was/is always good.
Manchester is a fantastic city! We moved north, out of the City itself about 12 years ago, but last Saturday we went in to do a tour of the galleries and exhibitions, nice meal in Dimitri's (an old favourite haunt) then a good few beers at some of our favourite pubs, then the tram home. We had a great day and there were clearly loads of parties of tourists around, of all ages
Fair point made by Winston. I'm in favour (already paying it in most places I go around Spain), but wonder if there should be a cap.
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
We do. We go up in the camper van from the Basque Country. 2400m round trip to Môn or Llyn for a few days, would stay there longer but obliged to visit family in the hen Ogledd...
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So you can recognise who has paid?
Like these?
*s****s*
Some people are complaining saying it’ll drive people away.
The people saying this are mostly accommodation providers. It's just a cover story for their real objection which is that they can't be arsed with the admin faff of collecting the tax.
If it was £2 per person per night then that would be £120 less we would have to spend directly with local businesses.
I think we all know that trickle down doesn't work. It certainly won't trickle out of local businesses into road repairs or more public toilets at honeypot areas or the funding of countryside rangers.
Me. Frequently. We’ve Got 2 weeks booked in Solva in June which, as you can see, is a hideous hell-hole…
I know Solva well. Have family in the area so visit often. Yeah, fair point, it is nice around there and always crawling with tourists in the summer. Especially if you’re into outdoors stuff. Don’t why I posted that now. Think I just had images of old valleys coal towns and Rhyl. Pembs is so far away it almost feels like you’ve driven through wales and have arrived back in England again with all the tourists/second homes etc. Like a slightly quieter Cornwall.
I think the amount of shit that Dwr Cymru is pumping into the sea around Wales will have a much put more people off visiting than a tourist tax. I'm from north Pembrokesire and there is no way I'd swim in the sea anymore.
If it was £2 per person per night then that would be £120 less we would have to spend directly with local businesses.
I think we all know that trickle down doesn’t work. It certainly won’t trickle out of Air BnB owners pockets
FTFY
Well we stay* in Wales for holidays/ weekends away a few times a year, so would pay it. Quite happy to do so.
*as in we're here already
Sorry for being so rude jambourgie. Kneejerk reaction... I grew up near the border, on the English side, and had my younger years filled with annoying "jokey" insults about Wales, which the country and people don't deserve. Gets tired fast.
I think we all know that trickle down doesn’t work. It certainly won’t trickle out of local businesses into road repairs or more public toilets at honeypot areas or the funding of countryside ranger.
Probably does a lot more than you think eg council tax on holiday homes, all the council run car parks, business rates on the all the pubs / restaurants which tourists visit...
The real problem is council incomes are just too low, council tax hasn't kept up with inflation / care costs for decades and the government grant has been scaled back year after year....
I was amazed to discover, the other day, that council tax is only 10% of our local council's income, they make more money from car parks...
Good idea in theory. The amount is so small that most people wouldn’t really notice, yet cumulatively could do some real good. However, this being the UK, I am cynical about the money actually ending up in the right place. Also, whilst it makes sense for Wales etc, so poorer communities can benefit from increased funding, why central Manchester? Reading the link, the money also seems earmarked for attracting [i]more[/i] visitors rather than e.g. helping/improving local communities?
So local people won’t actually benefit (except those in the tourism industry or AirBNB owners who can put their prices up due to increased demand??)
Reading the link, the money also seems earmarked for attracting more visitors rather than e.g. helping/improving local communities?
Yes, I saw that and did wonder why...
I guess more tourism = more money in the city = more jobs etc
But also, more congestion, more pollution, more noise and higher house prices etc...
I’d don’t support charges for UK nationals to visit any part of Britain & NI. For same reason I don’t support ringfenced locals only housing.
That sort of thing further deepens social divides and inequality. I grew up in a difficult inner city neighbourhood, and rail against any hint of protectionism.
I will not be constrained to my ghetto.
I feel just the same now I live in a picturesque town in the Derbyshire Peak District. It belongs to us all, not just to the locals.
Obvs the funding gap would be far less an issue in the awful Tory party wasn’t so willfully violent towards council budgets.
Exceptionally impacted places should be able to apply for additional funding. Snowdonia has National Park Authority resources for example.
Sorry for being so rude jambourgie. Kneejerk reaction… I grew up near the border, on the English side, and had my younger years filled with annoying “jokey” insults about Wales, which the country and people don’t deserve. Gets tired fast.
None taken. Half my family are Welsh. Which is probably why I’ve never thought of it as a tourist destination. What I meant is you hear of Americans for example going on holiday to ‘Scatlin’ or to London or Ireland… rarely hear of Wales as a destination. Not that it isn’t beautiful in parts, I just see it as home, same as the rest of the UK. But then again, despite owning bikes I’m not much of an outdoors type. A holiday to me must involve sitting on a beach in the sun 😉
France have been doing it for years, most people don’t know they are paying,
You what, how can they not know?
People aren't stup..
Actually, you're probably right 🤔
Are they? I think thats absolute crap. Where did you dream that up from?
The second home tax, if it comes in will cripple tourism and is such a bad, ill-thought out idea that its staggering, even for this out of touch business killing Welsh government. They really are brain dead cretins of the highest order.
It’s kind of hard to feel sorry for second home owners and parasite landlords to be honest. Good on Wales gov for introducing the tax. Second homes are grotesque in times of such shortages of affordable housing. And what exactly do they add to the local community? They generally bring everything with them. And will be using the local pubs etc less and less as there’s no staff when all the young people have to leave to find somewhere to live…
Are they? I think thats absolute crap. Where did you dream that up from?
Not everyone in the countryside works to sell tea an scones to tourists.
Every time someone has the bright idea to buy a 2nd home and let it out as self catering, justifying to themselves it on the basis that the people staying there will perhaps eat and drink in the local pub, and definitely won't just stop at Tesco on the way to stock up for the week. That's one more teacher, plumber, electrician, nurse, farm worker, priced out of the market.
2nd, tourism jobs, particularly in seasonal areas aren't great economically. It might be enough to keep the 2nd home owners mortgage paid if they only rent it out half the year, but that doesn't help the local economy that needs people in the businesses the other 6 months of the year. It's a bonus, or a step up for otherwise economically struggling areas (e.g. the Valleys trail centers), but overall it's not a great thing to have an imbalance of Vs higher paying full time jobs.
It's not quite that black and white, but that's the counter to your point and in a lot of places it's a lot closer to the reality.
Clearly they are not content with the damage and grief they caused during the pandemic
Ah! The first cuckoo of spring.
Are those poor old second home owners being persecuted yet again...
Prices will soar because the demand for accommodation will be far greater than what’s available. People renting homes will face huge hikes in business rates that will force them to sell up. I know people who are currently in this situation and its hard enough as it is. They’ve all said if it comes in that’s them finished. They could have 100% occupancy and it still wouldn’t be worth it in some cases and that’s impossible to achieve anyway.
How many visitors to Wales stay in holiday homes vs how many camp etc? Serious question.
Are you aware of the issues caused by too many holiday homes? If holiday home owners sell up, that means more houses for actual locals to buy and live in all year round. Whilst contributing to the community. Maybe the second home owners could start another different business that employs more local people?
Not that it isn’t beautiful in parts, I just see it as home, same as the rest of the UK.
I live here and it is nearly all beautiful, never mind 'in parts'.
Same for the rest of the UK. And most of Earth, tbh.
Not that it isn’t beautiful in parts, I just see it as home,
Aren't we all guilty of that (at least some of the time)? When I lived in Edinburgh I'd walk past the amazing architecture and the castle (on a hill, in the middle of the friggin' city) without giving it a second thought. Same since I moved to Aviemore. Mostly I just don't look around at the lochs, forests and mountains the way I did as a holidaymaker, then I see/read/hear other folk going on about the place 🥴
I think I get the whole second home issue in rural communities. But if these were blocked, stopped, illegal and the homes are available to 'locals' what would be the long term employment opportunities for locals?
I guess there is a balance to be found on attracting people to rural communities to spend their 'city' money? As farming and agriculture become more automated I can't imagine there being more jobs. Fishing, local services only account for so much in rural coastal communities.
Do the rural communities want more hotels, caravan parks and campsites? So local homes for local people but still have money and investment that tourist bring? I've not seen anyone in these areas screaming for new Premier Inns but I don't live in one so perhaps disconnected? Is there a genuine belief these communicates would survive without the money tourists bring in?
Would you be put off visiting if your hotel invoice had ‘Tourism tax: £2’ on it?
Yes. Nor by the price but the principle. Income tax gets funnelled back out to Wales, and I live in the UK. In fact, if I had to pay that tourist tax I’d deliberately avoid spending money in local shops.
Many people complaining about tourists fail to realise that without them their towns would be financially crippled.
I can’t see many locals objecting to more campsites. And if most of the tourists are outdoorsy times then that would be ideal for them no? Win/win.
Aren’t we all guilty of that (at least some of the time)? When I lived in Edinburgh I’d walk past the amazing architecture and the castle (on a hill, in the middle of the friggin’ city) without giving it a second thought.
Absolutely. My sister lives in London. She dismisses anything well known as ‘touristy’. Whenever I visit we have to wrangle on what to do as I’m begrudgingly dragged round yet another gentrified borough - ooh look, another coffee shop! Whilst I just want to get drunk in Soho and go and look at Tower Bridge.
I've gone from being unnecessarily rude to you, to liking every word of every post! 🤗
Ah! The first cuckoo of spring.
Ah! Ignorance is bliss.
You are indeed blessed then.
Absolutely. My sister lives in London. She dismisses anything well known as ‘touristy’
Same here. My sister lives in central London. Whenever I go down, I arrive clutching a list of 'stuff I want to do while I'm here'. which will be a list of all the galleries I want to visit and which exhibitions I want to go and see. I'll have my route around the City mapped out so I can fit it all in. Our kid comes with me, invariably loves it as she always comments 'we never do anything like this'.
On the second homes issue, my cousin lives in Cornwall (she married a bloke from down there) and the tourist hotspot she lives in she says is absolutely deserted now at some times of year. You can walk through the village in the evening and there are no lights on at all and absolutely nobody around. Just empty second homes. This means that the local businesses are unsustainable and most have closed (which doesn't impact the second home owners as they went to Waitrose en route and got everything they need for the week). Obviously it also impacts the schools (no pupils as nobody lives there year-round any more), and hospitals and other public services as the place is either absolutely rammed in the holidays, then like a ghost town at other times
which doesn’t impact the second home owners as they went to Waitrose en route and got everything they need for the week
And yet the local pubs etc will be full of tourists buying food and drink every night...
Certainly that's the case whenever we go on holiday in the UK somewhere rural.
And yet the local pubs etc will be full of tourists buying food and drink every night…
For 6 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks at Easter, half term etc, the rest of their time theres 2 blokes and a dog in there
Certainly that’s the case whenever we go on holiday in the UK somewhere rural.
Would that by any chance be during the 6 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks at Easter, half term etc?
How many visitors to Wales stay in holiday homes vs how many camp etc? Serious question.
Are you aware of the issues caused by too many holiday homes? If holiday home owners sell up, that means more houses for actual locals to buy and live in all year round. Whilst contributing to the community. Maybe the second home owners could start another different business that employs more local people?
You tell me. What damage does a holiday rental do to a community in reality? Typical Welsh Government blame game and people fall for it yet again.
Trying to book a cottage in wales last year was difficult and expensive enough, imagine if the availability drops more. Many won't be able to afford it.
They are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Its bonkers what they are proposing. Be careful what you wish for.
These businesses already employ local people and local businesses rely on the tourism these places bring. Locals buy the majority of "second homes" and they won't be spending like tourists do, not a chance. They also won't be employing cleaners, gardeners to the same extent either. Then the same locals will be whinging there's no local jobs and unemployment has gone through the roof, forcing people to move out of the area.
There's a balance to be had of course but being rational and using common sense doesn't apply to Drakeford and his band of cretins. Its ALWAYS someone else's fault. Look at the Betsi health board debacle and the Welsh health minister pointing fingers at everyone bar themselves.
During the pandemic people were worried if tourism would recover when we went back to normal. This is hardly going to help is it?
I'd be happy paying an extra couple of quid if it meant I could smash the place up a bit.