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It's been obvious for ages that the scheme is BSNot really. It's just that they've been fudging the tests. It's meant to penalise high CO2 choices, so it's not pro-rata based on actual amounts.
I get that, but I think the gradient is too steep! And it's based on BS mpg figures in the EU case, ie
my old 320d did 45mpg real world = 158g CO2 = £180 VED
a new one 53mpg real world = 109g CO2 = £30 VED!
This particular problem was with SCR in cars.
I doubt there are ant TDI lambo's, ducati or porche.
Trucks maybe, but i suspect the systems in those work properly.
Interestingly Subaru don't lie about their emissions, in fact the seem to be pessimistic with economy and emissions figures. They also sell most of their cars in the states!
It has been pretty obvious that the big grperman brands have been up to this for years. Just look at the relationship between tax legislation an emissions.
brooess - MemberDmorts has it IMO - we only have ourselves to blame. If we, customers, demanded proper testing or were willing to pay the price/accept reduced performance of a car which didn't wreck the environment, manufacturers would be less likely to cheat
It's human nature to want next years car be better than this years car, unfortunately we've defined better as bigger and faster with more toys rather than lighter and more economical. Add to that the me me me attitude to safety where everyone's been scaling up and things have gotten out of hand. To the point where our 300hp 1.7 tonne hatchbacks aren't very nice to the environment.
As someone said above this is the trouble with unrestricted capitalism, they don't supply what we need they build what they can sell.
I don't blame them for playing the game in any way and I think nothing less of them for doing this. They're a business who's main goal is to make money and they're competing against other car makers who are all no doubt doing exactly the same thing. I can't see any grounds for these fines people are saying they'll have imposed, the cars passed the tests!
The only people to blame for this are those who wrote and policed the rules. Either they're too onerous or they're not doing their job properly.
For reference, a 5.0 V8 Jag or LR does properly meet Euro 6b emissions standard. Gaseous emissions are easily mopped up by a properly managed catalyst, and the particulate emissions are managed by properly managed combustion. Euro 6c is where it gets tougher as the particulate emission standards will be 10x lower, so will need more work to meet, and the Real Driving Emissions requirements will see mobile test kit fitted to cars by the manufacturers and by authorities to test over a much wider range of speeds and loads than a standard drive cycle.
For info also, for VW to have announced the recall now, they will have been in discussions with EPA and ARB for well over a year. Software and calibration changes across the range of cars they have had to fix will have taken many many months to get fully validated. Normally ARB only go public when the recall is announced, which is after the technical and timing discussions have concluded.
And don't confuse CO2 and emissions. Often fuel economy and emissions can be traded - and it is highly likely with VW that to meet certain fuel economy targets, they will have traded some off cycle emissions. FE gets sales, people don't understand emissions.
All manufacturers know the penalty for knowingly contravening legislation. Only the stupid ones actually do it - test methods change with time, and your old cars are in the market for a long time (and in the US the emissions legislation covers key components up to 10 years and 150,000 miles), so the likelihood of getting caught increases with time......
I pay £265 "road tax" per annum for my Toyota Corolla 1.6 petrol while their "cleaner" diesel pay much much lesser ... ya, now we know the truth!
It's not based on 'cleanliness' it's based on CO2 specifically.
I'd bet the new diesel produces less CO2 than your Toyota.
unfortunately we've defined better as bigger and faster with more toys rather than lighter and more economical
One reason I bought a Prius was to go lighter and more economical. Was that the right decision now then? 🙂
Often fuel economy and emissions can be traded
CO2 emissions can't, surely? The combustion of X amount of fuel always produces Y amount of CO2, unless you produce CO instead or spit unburned HCs out of the exhaust.. which isn't likely these days.
I get that, but I think the gradient is too steep!
It wouldn't work if it wasn't steep!
molgrips - Member
One reason I bought a Prius was to go lighter and more economical. Was that the right decision now then?
Brian Griffin the dog from Family Guy drives a Prius too! 😆
I'd bet the new diesel produces less CO2 than your Toyota.
Argee, something to do with CO2 ... 🙁
chewkw - Member
All these car brands might be impacted by VW coz VW supply them engines of some sort ......
Ducati
Ducati Corse
...
Not sure Ducati make many diesel motorbikes 🙂
bensales - Member
Not sure Ducati make many diesel motorbikes
Could be tractor etc? I blame Wiki for the info ... 😆
Molgrips, the CO2 vs emissions trade is all about how you condition the catalyst. Even a dirty engine that burns lots of fuel can have a clean tailpipe by using a very effective catalyst and managing it properly. (By dirty I don't mean that Cortina engine from the 70's, I mean a modern but comparatively dirty engine). (This is mainly applicable to petrol engines, but can also apply to diesels).
So you're saying that some fuel is not burned cleanly? Even at light cruising load?
There's more background to the story here...
(edit)
For instance...
The pair contacted the Californian Air Resource Board and the US Environment Protection Agency who launched an investigation in May 2014.
There followed months of fencing by Volkswagen who insisted on repeating the tests themselves and claimed that the figures were the result of minor discrepancy software error which could be fixed easily with a recall.
It wasn't until the EPA and the CARB threatened to withhold certification for its 2016 diesel models that Volkswagen admitted its wrongdoing in early September.
Often fuel economy and emissions can be traded - and it is highly likely with VW that to meet certain fuel economy targets, they will have traded some off cycle emissions. FE gets sales, people don't understand emissions.
Isn't the VW thing mostly about SCR though?
SCR doesn't have any great affect on economy, as it's simply injecting urea into the exhaust, although they may of been fiddling with the EGR at the same time, which would affect economy.
However the big benefit of SCR is you don't have to rely on as much EGR, so you should be able to increase fuel economy. I know when Euro 4 came in for trucks, EGR only engines had a 5-10% fuel economy hit compared to SCR equipped engines that didn't require any EGR.
The only major change to trucks for Euro 5, was Nox levels had to be monitored, which added a fairly expensive sensor (last Merc one I done was £300, and a Renault one £800).
Euro 6 trucks brought in the need for EGR, DPF and SCR on pretty much everything.
My personal guess is VW reduced the SCR dosage to increase service intervals.
Truck AdBlu is a diluted urea solution needing refilled fairly often, whereas most car manufacturers are running a concentrated form of urea which should last between service intervals.
So you're saying that some fuel is not burned cleanly? Even at light cruising load?
He is. With an ideal petrol engine (ignoring lean burn engines), the fuel/air ratio always remains the same regardless of speed/load, however unless you have absolute perfect conditions, there will always be unburnt fuel aka Hydro Carbons. The only difference is the quantity which varies according to engine speed/load.
A catalyst at working temperature will quite happily deal with HCs, and will actually help it warm up, and combine the HCs with the various other gases, to produce less harmful/harmless gases/vapour.
The issue is getting the catalyst up to temperature, and maintaining that temperature. Mount it near the engine, it warms up quicker, however you risk overheating it, mount it further away, it takes longer to warm up and might not even warm up fully unless driven hard.
Everything regarding current emission levels is a fine balancing act.
This is great - not. I've a few test drives booked next week and they're all diesels. 2 of them are VAG. Should I sack off the idea of diesel altogether (no,I don't do the mileage but I do tow a caravan) or wait for "further revelations" and see which way the emissions blow.........?
There's a hybrid Passat that can tow a caravan...
With an ideal petrol engine
Good post, thanks - what about diesel though? I know they have cats, but then I guess under normal load (which is a low fraction of max) almost all the fuel is burned...?
I'm just about to buy a 4 yr old golf or passat. Dealers reluctant to budge on price last week but will this change things? Is it worth waiting? Don't want to end up with a car type negative equity situation!
I still think that this is trade tarrifs by the backdoor. same as the yanks have ill treated BP, Standard Chartered, HSBC and loads of other non US companies for breaching their shitty unilateral sanctions and what not. they do it as revenge for the EU picking up Microsoft and google etc for their supposed anti competitive behaviour.
what would you rather a VW or a Chrysler? US cars are utter cack. too many state lawyers on ego trips.
what about diesel though?
I'll admit, that although I spend most of my time working on diesels, I've never really paid much attention to the finer workings of the combustion/emissions chemistry!
With petrol's you need to know to diagnose faults, however with modern diesels you have to rely more on the built in diagnostics, as they'll usually still run perfectly fine even if something is faulty.
However, traditionally diesels speed was purely controlled by the amount of fuel, varying from a very lean burn, to a rich burn (i.e. black smoke territory!). As things have progressed, first EGR was introduced to reduce NOx, as to prevent NOx being produced, you just need to keep the combustion temperature below six hundred and something degrees. By reintroducing the exhaust gases, you contaminate the air charge, which in turn reduces the amount of oxygen available to burn, and reduces the peak combustion temperature.
Then throttle valves were introduced as a way of limiting the air intake, again less oxygen, lower combustion temperature, however with a diesel you still need to ensure you have enough pressure within the cylinder so you are limited with how much you can restrict fresh air going into the engine. With a petrol, you just need enough air and fuel to get enough power, as you have a nice spark to ignite the mix, but with a diesel, you need enough gases to compress and get hot enough to ignite the injected fuel.
Diesel cats do a similar job to a petrol cats, however they can't do anything with particulates. They simply pass through the cat, and either out the exhaust, or into the DPF if one is fitted.
To give you an idea of the amount of technology on a Euro 5 compliant diesel, a Merc Sprinter has, MAF sensor, EGR valve, EGR cooler bypass valve, Throttle valve, 7 different temperature sensors (air filter, intercooler, exhaust manifold, pre DPF, post DPF, coolant, fuel), 4 pressure sensors (atmospheric, manifold, exhaust pressure, DPF differential pressure), wide band lambda sensor, catalyst, DPF, along with all the other critical bits that the engine won't run without - fuel pre-delivery pressure, fuel rail pressure, fuel volume control valve, fuel pressure control valve (they run in pressure control to warm the fuel up quicker, then switch to volume control to reduce wasted power), crank and cam position sensors, turbo actuators, and injectors.
So as you can see, modern diesels are far from simple, with pretty much every aspect monitored. Get any one of those bits playing up, and it can be a major headache. However you can understand just how easy it is for software to adjust how all that interacts, and manipulate emission levels.
@thisisnotaspoon, lots of Porsche diesels sold Panamera, Cayenne, Macan
I used to feel so cheeky altering the ECU mapping on my Caterham at MOT time, so that it would pass the emissions test....it turns out that I was just a pioneering trendsetter after all 🙂
Wait another month and it's going to be a great time to buy a new Diesel.
What VW got up to ( and probably everyone else) was just plain wrong, but "pot kettle black " Uncle Sam! A whole nation of retards, driving around in unbelievable gas guzzlers ( read the rolling coal story pls) and going to war at the drop of a hat if the price of gas goes up 10 cents. Me thinks the European makes were getting too big a market share for the failing US motor manufacturers. ........or maybe not if the CIA are listening.
pot kettle black
Hugely so.
VW's main mistake is being German.
As much as we all know the US bias towards protectionism and the fact that their manufacturers are far behind in diesel technology faking pollution test results is total madness ! Story in ores today that whilst German and EU regulators are "up in arms" they've been lobbying to keep simplistic testing as it suits their manufacturers
BMW now being dragged in. To be honest as an asthmatic if this kills diesel engines for good outside of a few specific requirements then hurrah,it couldn't come quick enough.
A move back to petrol will help the UK, as we mostly refine petrol and buy our diesel from overseas.
One thing is for certain...
Diesel isn't going to go away any time soon
Interesting prog on the gogglebox last night. Apart from aviation, and let's call it about 50% of personal use motorcars, virtually every single engine out there is diesel.
Might be a small shift back to turbo-charged petrol for personal use. And maybe a continued trend in some city buses moving in the direction of diesel-electric hybrid, unless some politician starts banning ICE vehicles from city centres.
And maybe a continued trend in some city buses moving in the direction of diesel-electric hybrid, unless some politician starts banning ICE vehicles from city centres.
Just city busses? Or were you talking only about diesel?
I would have thought it made sense for the entire (or something close to it) personal motoring sector to move toward hybrid TBH (seeing as a viable countrywide infrastructure for electic motoring is about a brazillion years away).
BMW now being dragged in
Oh great, I pick up my new BMW diesel tomorrow morning. Thank **** its on PCP and has a guaranteed future value, assuming its not recalled and I get a new one.
Diesel isn't going to go away any time soon
For cars I think it will, even before the scandal the French, Norwegians and us Brits were looking into banning them from cities and also Italy are reviewing their health risks. I think a ban will now be pushed through on diesels faster and the car makers will have little comeback.
This is quote from back in January in the FT:
[b]“Having long been seen as a ‘clean fuel’, diesel is now seeing something of a backlash in Europe,” says Stuart Pearson, analyst at Exane BNP Paribas.[/b]
Couldn't give a hoot about the eco nonsense. If my car tax goes up though I will be miffed.
I've recently placed an order for a 1.4 TSI VW, which I now assume is going be in stronger demand than before (and I hope delivery isn't delayed)!
On the plus-side, demand for my 3.2 V6 Golf with a supercharger strapped on to it is now bound to be much more popular on the used market. 😉
all the spangly new routemasters Borris paid squillions for , are no longer hybrid as the batteries have failed, there is no warranty and they are now diesel only, and he was seeking an exemption because the engines are outdated and exceed modern EU limits
Id love to see diesels banned from cities, they are incredibly polluting and a massive contributor to heart disease, asthma etc etc, causing premature death and costing NHS ££££
Couldn't give a hoot about [s]the eco nonsense[/s] killing people.
Fixed it.
Kimbers +1
id love to see cars banned from cities.... but thats not going to happen is it.....
I noticed in Tallinn that there were few cars on the road and few parked up. Then I found out that all Tallinn ratepayers get free public transport. That could be a start or a Livingston-type massive drop in the fares.
id love to see cars banned from cities.... but thats not going to happen is it.....
Rightly so. Disaster for businesses as a very large number of people would do their shopping outside plus there would end a big move of companies/employers to where you could drive.
"Rightly so. Disaster for businesses as a very large number of people would do their shopping outside plus there would end a big move of companies/employers to where you could drive."
and that makes it right because ? as i said - id like to see it.
I do recall when they pedestrianised dundee city centre they claimed the same - folks would go out of city - when infact the opposite has happened....
lets all rush back to petrol and ban diesel to get rid of the nasty NOx...
then let all the extra CO2 gets to work on the climate. NOx will seem like a small problem when your up to your eyeballs in H2O
Well we need to make petrol more fuel efficient in real world situations. Plus look at alternatives.
All city centers should be pedestrianised IMO, any that aren't are just backward (yes Aberdeen looking at you). Cardiff has been for decades and as a result is a nice place.
and yet smoking is banned everywhere, even though it kills less than air pollution in cities
id love to see a mayor ban i.c.e. in london, for example
The diesel or petrol issue for cars is a false dichotomy and always has been. The reality is in urban and sub urban centres personal motorised transport of any kind...petrol, diesel or electric is deeply antisocial and damaging.
Disaster for businesses as a very large number of people would do their shopping outside
This old chestnut, which also gets trotted out whenever the sacred parking spots are under threat? Shame it's nonsense.
We can agree to differ then chaps. When they tried to do away with free single yellow parking after 6:30 in central London it was overturned rapidly after complaints from business, they keep having this no cars debate in Paris and businesses are very afraid of the impact on them. You can see the impact when due to pollution they restrict car access and business activity drops a lot. Plus how would everyone who lives in the city centre manage if they couldn't use their own car?
No cars isn't going to happen but no diesels or hybrids only might. In time.
I am reassured that there is no way my 22 year old Defender can have software that cheats the emissions tests. It might kill polar bears, but at least it's honest about it.
Every business in Amsterdam and Groningen is bust....FACT
business overall won't suffer. People will still buy food and clothes. They just might buy them somewhere else, if they decide they absolutely can't walk / use park and ride / the bus / the train / their bike / etc
obviously businesses in the city centres will whinge. Businesses in the suburbs will probably be in favour...
Pretty sure internal combustion engines are not banned from Amsterdam.
Dissuaded maybe. Banned no, except in pedestrianised zones that have delivery access possibly with limited hours. Much like lots of places actually.
Diesel isn't going away. Only might be urged not to be used in some portions of transport. Although now could be a perfect time to pull a Merkel and gain some political popularity points.
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Amsterdam aint car free your right but groinegan is- as are assen , leuwarrden and nijmegans city centres.
Groinigan and leuwarrden being two of the biggest with over 1square kilometer closed to cars.
I still think that this is trade tarrifs by the backdoor. same as the yanks have ill treated BP, Standard Chartered, HSBC and loads of other non US companies for [i]breaching their shitty unilateral sanctions and what not.[/i]
I think you mean "pissing crude all over the Gulf", "money laundering to cover up Iranian trading" and "conducting financial business in the U.S. without a licence". Neither do you mention BNY Mellon, Citigroup or Fannie Mae, three examples of American firms being recently smashed by the American regulators for doing shitty things in America.
I don't have a lot to offer (as usual) but earlier in the week I met with two good friends who have a very good technical and commercial knowledge on this within the industry and their comments were that this will be the death of the Diesel Engine in Cars. Within the industry seemingly, this has been known about for a long time and they've all been on borrowed time waiting to find out. At the end of the decade too, the stricter EURO emissions laws that are coming into effect will all but make diesel engines non-competitive with their petrol siblings.
@LHS I really don't think this will be the end of diesel not least because of the amount that's been invested, it's just too much to walk away from. These engines can pass the tests as VW proved, they can be run legally. It's just the fuel economy and performance won't be the same, that's my understanding.
BTW saw a number of articles quoting lawyers in the UK looking to launch class action suits not least as some of the impacted models cost more due to their "eco friendliness" and as above road tax may go up on impacted cars so they get compensated. Also if the fix results in reduced performance then compensation will be due
It's just the fuel economy and performance won't be the same, that's my understanding.
Indeed.
So either they allow a performance and economy drop that does not make a diesel engine competitive over an equivalent petrol, or they introduce technology which adds cost to the car.
We will see, early days, but these gentlemen have collectively over 50 years technical and commercial experience in the industry and are well published and were pretty adamant that this is a game changer that insiders in the industry knew all to well was coming.
Ive thought something was 'off' for a while. Riding through stationary jams you can get that weird sooty 'taste'. Hard to describe but diesel smells/tastes horrible. Hopefully this kills off diesel use or at least quick starts the end asap.
I also still remember some stw'ers advocating blanking too in regards to egr's etc.
VW should be really made to suffer for this. Willfully ****ing with ALL our health in some way on a direct basis if you live in a city etc.
Facing the possibility of losing a £500 deposit, I'm seriously wondering whether to cancel the purchase of my (diesel) car today. 😐
I've got about 90 minutes before I'm supposed to leave to do the deed.
Change the order to a petrol? Would you lose it though? Considering their product isnt really as described? 😀
I suspect with diesels it'll be a long slow drawn out decline, due to the sheer number of cars on the road.
Almost glad mine is now at 120k. Definitely glad I'm not in Krytons shoes /\/\/\
I used diesel vans all day at work and even though some are the latest BlueTec Mercedes engines the fumes are awful to be around. The amount of diesel cars I see on my commute puffing out soot (even the new ones) tells me this story may well be the tip of the iceberg. I just get the feeling that diesels test well due to their inherent pro's but used every day by the general public give massively different results. Maybe the test is unfit for purpose if it cannot replicate real-life usage. Whatever, I get a feeling this will be story that takes a long time to play out fully.
I was 50/50 whether to go for the diesel or petrol version of my Fabia last year, the extra £2k for diesel just swung it to petrol for me. Looks like I made the correct decision judging by all of this 🙂
As mentioned before I've already signed the papers for PCP with a guaranteed future value, so I have that. The worst that could happen is that its recalled to be modified, or replaced.
Diesel isnt going to vanish from the pumnps overnight.
Just a couple of points, then I'll leave you kids to carry on
😉
Parking restrictions impact business.
[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-33550763 [/url]
IMO, there appears to be a consistently present elephant in the room, during debates about car use and pollution, etc. That being the anti car types who never seem to get round to addressing some significant issues:
i, Do they actually own/use/rely on the use of a car?
ii, If diesel is now to become overly villified, leading to signigicant financial losses for diesel car owners. What could and/or should be done about that?
iii, Are car emissions the sole cause of breathing related health issues?
I'll state that I do own and use cars and they're both diesel powered.
Facing the possibility of losing a £500 deposit, I'm seriously wondering whether to cancel the purchase of my (diesel) car today.I've got about 90 minutes before I'm supposed to leave to do the deed.
Dont worry.
At least you arent that guy thats going to get forced by his wife to spend £3k on some curtains or have a stove he doesnt want..
I do try very hard not to use our car, it's really an occasional bike carrier to be honest, probably gets used once a week / fortnight which I think is enough. Walk / ride for local stuff and train for further afield.
However, I am fairly horrified at this news, it is a VAG diesel and I am appalled at the damage I could have been doing. Will have to think about what we do though now as I swore long ago never to own another hateful bloody petrol powered car.
At least you arent that guy thats going to get forced by his wife to spend £3k on some curtains
Its amazing how some people cant read or interpret a post...
Well I'm off to pick up our new VW diesel powered Skoda in an hour.
**** the ice caps!
Well I'm off to pick up our new VW diesel powered Skoda in an hour
😀
Of course there is a plus side to this maybe - what if one/some manufacturers were proven to have not cheated the tests and are achieving the mpg/emissions legitimately? Maybe the value of thier cars would increase?
what if one/some manufacturers were proven to have not cheated the tests and are achieving the mpg/emissions legitimately?
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Given that BMW are one of the main culprits in misleading customers with false information I think you have excellent grounds for negociating your way out of your contract Kryton with lots of threats of legal action if they don't refund your deposit. You signed in ignorance and now have information which meands you can no longer morally drive such a car.
You knew after my posts on the petrol v diesel thread eight months ago but now you have a mass of magazine articles to support your decision.
When you know there's a problem, don't be apart of it. Don't be a part of poisoning people when you could drive something that would poison them less, and if you choose wisely produce no more CO2. May I suggest a VW Touran TSi.
Wheres the evidence? Nothing has been proven against BMW yet. And surely the same stands in a couple of weeks if I'm driving the car - I have the same grounds for giving it back and terminating the contract.
Can krypton sue everyone on here who's been pushing skodas for the last few yrs? He'd make up any loss in value of it when the Eco police de tune it if he could... 😉
i, Do they actually own/use/rely on the use of a car?
ii, If diesel is now to become overly villified, leading to signigicant financial losses for diesel car owners. What could and/or should be done about that?
iii, Are car emissions the sole cause of breathing related health issues?
I) yes, it's a VW diesel
Ii) Nothing if what you're hinting at is some sort of government scheme
Iii) No but it's one of the primary causes and fixable so absolutely no reason not to. "Whataboutery" isn't a good argument.
Plenty has been proven about BMW; The only thing that hasn't been proven is they they have been deliberately cheating, just making cars that perform better in tests. Their cars are amongst the dirtiest in real use:
[url= http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/cleanaircampaign/article1560165.ece ]The Times[/url]
You'll have to pay for the full article or the [url= http://emissionsanalytics.com/sunday-times-nox-investigation-the-results/ ]results of the tests they commisioned[/url]
Why aren't the Euro2/3/4/5/6 emissions tests part of the MOT?
Good point. Emissions are tested at MOT, so what are the tests based on / guideline figures come from?
Wheres the evidence? Nothing has been proven against BMW yet
Nothing had been proven against VW yet, until they got caught.
Scary this. My Yeti I traded in on Saturday. On Monday the news really broke....Just remember the systems are developed in some cases by Bosch, Delphi, so it begs the question is it likely the other manufacturers have done it?
JeZ
re mot - nox isn't tested, see p9
Nothing had been proven against VW yet, until they got caught.
Also true for BMW who are one of two manufacturers to date - the other being Ford - to have released a statement denying any cheating in tests.
Also true for BMW who are one of two manufacturers to date - the other being Ford - to have released a statement denying any cheating in tests.
Daimler and Jaguar Land Rover have also denied any test cheating.
"Riding through stationary jams you can get that weird sooty 'taste'. Hard to describe but diesel smells/tastes horrible."
Yeah - i get that . Smells like unburnt petrol normally...
Unless your behind my landy in which case smells like chips 😀